Debates of Dec. 10th, 2001

Minister for International Cooperation

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, when I first heard the hon. member's question, I thought she was talking about her former party, not the one she is in now. What she is saying has no relevance with respect to the Minister for International Cooperation, who is doing a good job in terms of Canada's work for less privileged countries.

I repeat, the hon. minister's position is that she voted in good faith based on information obtained for her by her staff from the municipality. I think that is the fact of the matter. The hon. member ought to listen once again to these answers.

[André Bachand, Progressive Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Mr. Speaker, contrary to what the Deputy Prime Minister would have us think, violating the Municipal Elections Act is no small matter; it is a serious offence which demands serious consequences.

There was a similar case in Quebec. A member of the national assembly was forced to resign in similar circumstances.

Did the minister, or did she not, violate Ontario's election act by voting in a ward other than the one in which she lived? The question is clear: did she or did she not vote outside her own ward? Will she answer?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the minister has not been found guilty by a court. There has been no complaint made that would require her to be brought before a court.

The circumstances in Quebec were different. The MLA resigned after being found guilty by a provincial court.

[Cheryl Gallant, Canadian Alliance, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Speaker, in Quebec the Liberals hounded Monique Simard from office for voting illegally in a municipal election. In the case of the Minister for International Cooperation, there are clear-cut cases of illegal voting and misconduct.

Will the Deputy Prime Minister explain why his government will not apply the same standards to his colleague that the Liberals applied in Quebec when they found a minister of the crown had voted illegally there?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member should explain why she is unwilling to apply standards of British and Canadian justice dating back hundreds of years. They say that someone is guilty after being so declared by a judge of the court, after charges have been laid and the charges have been proved beyond a reasonable doubt. None of this has happened, but this does not matter to the hon. member. She does not believe in British and Canadian principles of justice.

[Cheryl Gallant, Canadian Alliance, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Speaker, one of the priorities of CIDA and the Minister for International Cooperation has been to assist developing democracies to create democratic electoral systems.

How can the Deputy Prime Minister explain to Canadians that a minister who has broken our own electoral law will continue to preside over Canada's efforts to build law-abiding democracies around the world?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister for International Cooperation's position is that she has not broken the law. I guess the hon. Alliance Party member is not only an MP, she is judge and jury. What is she going to be next, the hangman?

I think the hon. member is totally wrong in her position. She ought to withdraw that position and instead return to the principles of Canadian law.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette-Et-La Mitis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister for International Cooperation voted illegally in a municipal election.

This being a breach of public morality, ought the Prime Minister not to require his minister to leave cabinet?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the courts have not found the minister guilty, and her position is that she voted in compliance with the present legislation of the province of Ontario.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette-Et-La Mitis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister and his spokespersons always manage to convince the public that cabinet is scandal-free. Naturally, everything possible is done to hush things up. It seems to me that in similar circumstances MPs have done the honourable thing and have resigned.

Does the Prime Minister not recognize that morality and honesty offer no solution for the minister but resignation?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, where the scandal lies is in the unfounded insinuations of the hon. member. The Minister for International Cooperation has not been found guilty by the courts, and the position she maintains is that she has acted in compliance with the law of the province of Ontario.

Government Grants

[Charlie Penson, Canadian Alliance, Peace River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, on February 13, 1998 Paul Lemire of Shawinigan received a $117,000 CIDA grant. At the time Mr. Lemire was under investigation by Revenue Canada for tax evasion. He was charged a couple of weeks later and was convicted in 1999. He was convicted again just last month, this time for fraud relating to HRDC grants.

How did this Mr. Lemire get a CIDA grant while he was under investigation for tax evasion by Revenue Canada?

[Martin Cauchon, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue and Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec)]

Mr. Speaker, with regard to the question that maybe would be directed to the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency, we all know that we cannot comment on any cases with regard to taxes because they are confidential matters. I just refer the hon. member to the Income Tax Act, section 241.

[Charlie Penson, Canadian Alliance, Peace River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, how convenient that is.

In January 1997 Mr. Lemire went with the Prime Minister on a team Canada trade mission to Asia. In May 1997 he donated money to the Prime Minister's election campaign. In June 1997, as a result of his team Canada contacts, he applied for a CIDA grant. In September 1997, because of the CIDA grant, he qualified for a low interest EDC loan.

Considering that Mr. Lemire was convicted of both tax evasion and fraud, the public needs to know the answer to the question, did this man also get an EDC loan?

[Martin Cauchon, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue and Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec)]

Mr. Speaker, there are so many questions in the question that I do not know exactly who it is directed to.

As far as Canada customs and revenue is concerned, the question of information about the tax file is confidential. I refer the hon. member to section 241 of the Income Tax Act.

Guaranteed Income Supplement

[Marcel Gagnon, Bloc, Champlain, QC]

Mr. Speaker, seniors are being treated very unfairly by the federal government, which is refusing to consider full retroactive payment for those entitled to the guaranteed income supplement and who have not had it, because the process has proven inaccessible to them.

Since the supreme court permits cross-referencing of data to recover money illegally collected from employment insurance, should the government not consider making the same effort to locate the seniors to whom it owes money and give it to them, since this money belongs to them?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I am sure the hon. member would agree with me that the most important thing here is to ensure that Canadian seniors who are eligible for the guaranteed income supplement have access to it.

As he points out, the Minister of National Revenue and I will be working together to use the tax system and the information there to make sure that Canadian seniors who need this important piece of the pension structure have access to it.

[Marcel Gagnon, Bloc, Champlain, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the government has owed them this money for eight years.

When it comes to income tax, the government has no hesitation in applying full retroactivity in order to recover money owing it.

Why then not apply the same principle when it is the one owing money to seniors? Why is the government treating seniors so unfairly?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I reiterate for the hon. member that parts of the guaranteed income supplement that ensure there is retroactivity are consistent with other pension programs, whether it be the CPP or QPP. This approach has been part of this undertaking since the guaranteed income supplement was introduced 30 years ago.

We know full well that the pension structures here in Canada are extraordinarily important to Canadian seniors. They have made a difference in their levels of poverty by reducing them. Our work is to ensure that Canadian seniors know about these programs and have full access to them.

Transitional Jobs Fund

[Kevin Sorenson, Canadian Alliance, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, on March 6, 2000 the RCMP launched an investigation into a transitional jobs fund grant. The money was supposed to go to the riding of Rosemont in Montreal but the jobs appeared to turn up in the Prime Minister's own riding.

The RCMP's investigation has now been over for 20 months. I ask the solicitor general, is this not an inordinate amount of time to conduct an investigation of this nature?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as I have said many times in the House, I do not direct the investigations of the RCMP. We as a government do not criticize the RCMP because we have one of the best police forces in the world.

[Kevin Sorenson, Canadian Alliance, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, with all the investigations into the Prime Minister's riding, it is a good thing the minister is not criticizing the RCMP.

There were allegations of a kickback of $250,000 being paid to Louis Freedman, a golfing buddy of the Prime Minister's, in return for his obtaining a $1.6 million transitional jobs fund grant for PLI Environmental in Sydney, Nova Scotia. The RCMP were investigating this as of July 27, 1999, a full 28 months ago.

Could the solicitor general tell us whether or not this lengthy investigation by the RCMP has been completed?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am not sure where my hon. colleague is coming from. I have said many times, and he knows very well, the government or I as solicitor general, do not get involved in police investigations.

We have one of the best, if not the best, police forces in the world. Let it do its job and do not keep criticizing it.

Afghanistan

[Sarkis Assadourian, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

The basic framework for an interim government for the war ravaged Afghanistan has been established by delegates in Bonn, Germany. Could the minister tell the House the views of the Canadian government in regard to this very historic agreement?

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the agreement reached last week in Bonn involving various Afghan parties is a very important one. It opens the way for a transition to a new government that is representative in nature. It includes women which is one of the issues that members of the House have been raising with concern. There is a lot more to do. There are many more challenges to face in Afghanistan, including a major humanitarian problem. However, this is one of the first items of good news in that poor country in a long time and the House should be pleased.