House of Commons Hansard #12 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was farmers.
Human RightsOral Question Period
The Speaker
Order, please. It is very difficult for the Chair to hear the hon. member for Halifax, and not just because she is seated a long way from the Chair. We would like to hear the hon. member. I am sure that hon. members on both sides of the House will allow her to ask her question.
Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS
Mr. Speaker, understandably there are some pictures that this group does not want to hear about.
The Prime Minister goes to China. He says that Canada wants China to respect human rights. Forty-eight hours into Canada's trade mission, some of the Prime Minister's own delegation taunt some Canadian students and tell them to shut up about human rights abuses.
My question is for the foreign affairs minister. Does Canada have a credible human rights position or is the Prime Minister just posturing?
John Manley LiberalMinister of Foreign Affairs
Mr. Speaker, I think what is wrong with this picture is that the hon. member does not know what is going on.
Earlier today the Prime Minister gave a speech in China in which he was very clear on the importance of the rule of law. He spoke to the rule of law and the independence of the judiciary by saying that “moving to the rule of law carries with it the subordination of all social, economic, political and individual behaviour to an agreed set of codes and regulations”. He said that “no one can be above the law” and that “rules must be the common property of all citizens”.
That was a very clear statement in favour of the importance of the rule of law in human rights in China which our Prime Minister was in a position to deliver.
Alexa McDonough NDP Halifax, NS
Mr. Speaker, talk about a bundle of contradictions and mixed messages. We have businessmen, invited by the Prime Minister, who go to China and condemn Canadian students who stand up for human rights.
My question is for the foreign affairs minister. If the Prime Minister is doing anything more than posturing, will he condemn the Canadian business voices who said not to speak up against Chinese human rights abuses?
John Manley LiberalMinister of Foreign Affairs
Mr. Speaker, if I follow the hon. member's point, we have the Prime Minister in China speaking forcefully for human rights. We had some Canadian students voicing their opinions but when they ran into trouble with Chinese authorities, our embassy officials made sure they were released and treated properly. At the same time, the hon. member does not think that Canadian business people have the right to express their opinions.
Exactly where do human rights lie in the mentality of the hon. member?
Joe Clark Progressive Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Industry. The alleged purchaser of the Prime Minister's golf club shares in 1993 was a company called Akimbo, controlled by Mr. Jonas Prince. Mr. Prince told the National Post that the agreement was never a firm sale but rather an option or right to purchase. That would mean the shares always belonged to the Prime Minister.
Will the Minister of Industry seek the agreement of Mr. Jonas Prince to table in parliament all relevant documents and agreements in this case?
Herb Gray LiberalDeputy Prime Minister
Mr. Speaker, the ethics counsellor, in testifying before the industry committee of the House, said “The Prime Minister doesn't have an interest in this matter. He sold his interest”.
He went on to say: “It was a sale free and clear of his interest in that golf course. The Prime Minister doesn't own the shares and has not owned the shares since November 1, 1993, which is the only important issue”.
That was the ethics counsellor's testimony before the standing committee of the House.
Joe Clark Progressive Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
Mr. Speaker, just to keep the Deputy Prime Minister up to date, the ethics counsellor has now said that the Prime Minister's shares in the golf course were never placed in a blind trust. That is what the ethics counsellor said last week.
Will the Deputy Prime Minister confirm that the Prime Minister's shares in the Grand-Mère Golf Club were never placed in a blind trust?
Ethics CounsellorOral Question Period
Bonavista—Trinity—Conception Newfoundland & Labrador
Liberal
Brian Tobin LiberalMinister of Industry
Mr. Speaker, the leader of the Conservative Party has admitted to fishing on this question. Yesterday he asked for urgent information on executive search firms, saying that search firms had been switched in the hiring between Mr. Schroder and Mr. Vennat. I checked and that information is false.
He asked for information on which executive search firms were involved in the hiring of executives at BDC. I can tell him that I have in my hands the list of not one or two but of ten. That is normal practice by any corporation when seeking out executives, depending upon their skill sets.
The hon. member is fishing. He is coming up dry. He is running away from his earlier—
Joe Peschisolido Canadian Alliance Richmond, BC
Mr. Speaker, yesterday the ethics counsellor, Mr. Wilson, said that the Prime Minister did have an interest in the financial health of the Auberge Grand-Mère and the Grand-Mère golf course.
Mr. Wilson clearly stated that the Prime Minister might lose money on his investment.
Is the Prime Minister in agreement with Mr. Wilson and will he simply acknowledge his financial interest between 1996 and 1999 in the Auberge Grand-Mère?
Herb Gray LiberalDeputy Prime Minister
Mr. Speaker, Mr. Wilson was speaking hypothetically. The matter is clear and he has reached a decision on it. He has said clearly, and I quote him in English:
“The Prime Minister doesn't own the shares and has not owned the shares since November 1, 1993, which is the only important issue”.
This was what the ethics counsellor testified before the House of Commons Standing Committee on Industry.
Joe Peschisolido Canadian Alliance Richmond, BC
Mr. Speaker, in 1996, as soon as the Prime Minister discovered that the sale of his shares had fallen through, he contacted Mr. Wilson to ask his advice.
Mr. Wilson offered him a clear choice: declare his shares or sell them.
I want to know why the Prime Minister did not follow the advice of his ethics counsellor, Mr. Wilson.
Herb Gray LiberalDeputy Prime Minister
Mr. Speaker, according to my information, the Prime Minister did follow the advice of the ethics counsellor.
Michel Bellehumeur Bloc Berthier—Montcalm, QC
Mr. Speaker, currently, when an adolescent commits a minor offence, the matter is referred to the crown prosecutor, who determines whether the young person needs help. If so, the Quebec system rehabilitates him immediately.
With the minister's bill, the youth will receive a warning only. The crown prosecutor will not see the record and will not be able to require the young offender to follow a program of rehabilitation.
Does the minister realize that her bill puts an end to Quebec's educational approach?
Anne McLellan LiberalMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada
Mr. Speaker, as I have said throughout this debate with the hon. member, our new youth justice legislation provides all the provinces with sufficient flexibility to continue those programs and policies they presently have in place.
Michel Bellehumeur Bloc Berthier—Montcalm, QC
Mr. Speaker, instead of the minister saying just any old thing, I would like her to try to understand Quebec's approach in this area. I will give her another very straightforward example.
Today, a young offender found guilty of a serious crime leaves a rehabilitation centre when Quebec social services consider him rehabilitated. However, with the minister's bill, the young person will be treated as an adult and automatically released after serving two thirds of his sentence, rehabilitated or not.
Does the minister understand that the bill prevents Quebec from continuing its rehabilitative approach?
Anne McLellan LiberalMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada
Mr. Speaker, this bill does not prevent Quebec from pursuing its rehabilitative approach. What it does is encourage that approach.
We in the federal government will be providing additional resources to the province of Quebec to build upon its rehabilitative program.
Diane Ablonczy Canadian Alliance Calgary Nose Hill, AB
Mr. Speaker, cracks keep opening up in the dike the Liberals have tried to build to hold back the Prime Minister's apparent wrongdoing.
Last week Canadians learned the industry minister's claim that the Prime Minister's golf course was in a blind trust was false. Now comes the admission that the Prime Minister stood to lose money if the value of his golf course fell. These raise valid concerns about apparent conflict of interest.
Why does the Prime Minister not simply table the relevant documents so that Canadians can judge for themselves?
Herb Gray LiberalDeputy Prime Minister
Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has given full answers in the House. The ethics counsellor has appeared before the industry committee and has given very full answers on this matter.
The whole picture is already before the public as well as the House.
Diane Ablonczy Canadian Alliance Calgary Nose Hill, AB
Mr. Speaker, that is absolute nonsense. There are no full answers, but there are a lot of full questions that the Prime Minister refuses to answer.
If the documents are there that show his interest in the golf course was sold, or what it was sold for, or when it was sold, why does he not just table them so that everyone can see and judge for themselves? What is he hiding?
Herb Gray LiberalDeputy Prime Minister
Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is not hiding anything.
I am wondering why opposition members persist in these questions. Are they trying to hide the fact that they lost the election because Canadians said that they had no vision, that they wanted to get rid of the health care system and that they wanted to get rid of old age pensions?
They are trying to hide a lot and that is why they are bringing up this subject now.
Pauline Picard Bloc Drummond, QC
Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Secretary of State for International Financial Institutions said that there had been problems with the distribution of cheques for home heating assistance and that even dead people and inmates had received such cheques.
He also said that the government was considering recovering these moneys, including through income tax returns.
Does the minister endorse these comments and is he not concerned that the operation to recover these cheques could look just like the distribution process in that it might not be conducted properly, that it might be based on ill-suited criteria and that it could create new injustices?
Paul Martin LiberalMinister of Finance
Mr. Speaker, as I repeated many times in the House, the secretary of state said that officials from the Department of National Revenue and the Department of Finance are reviewing the matter. Some provinces are also involved. Once a decision is made, everyone will be informed accordingly.
Pauline Picard Bloc Drummond, QC
Mr. Speaker, at the rate things are going, should the Minister of Finance not consider more effective and equitable ways to truly compensate those affected by the rise in home heating costs, rather than correct an injustice by creating another?