Debates of Feb. 15th, 2001

Supply

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I believe that the parliamentary secretary is distorting what my colleagues and the hon. member have said. He is probably referring to my colleague for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot.

His government took part in preliminary meetings, among others, for the 1994 Miami summit. His government probably took part in four ministerial meetings, between 1995 and 1998, where some Latin American countries asked that NGOs be excluded from the negotiations, saying that environmental NGOs had no business being involved in international agreement negotiations.

I wonder how the Canadian government responded to this demand, that NGOs not be involved in those negotiations, a demand made repeatedly by some countries that are now negotiating. What was the outcome? In Santiago, 800 NGOs from 34 countries expressed their concern that environmental and labour provisions would be excluded from negotiations.

It is not the members on this side of the House who opposed the participation of NGOs, it is the government, which did nothing to counter some countries' demand that NGOs not be involved in the negotiations. The hon. member will have an opportunity to answer my question, since this debate is not over yet. What was the Canadian position when some Latin American countries asked that the NGOs not be involved in the negotiation?

[Larry McCormick, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate you as the Deputy Speaker of the House. I am very proud to see you sitting there.

I would also like to thank the people of Hastings—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington who have chosen me to represent them for my third term. Thanks also to my campaign manager, Kathryn MacDonald, who did a terrific job. Thanks also to my HFL and A Liberal Association and each one of the several hundred volunteers who took part in the campaign, which makes this a very democratic process. A very special thanks to my number one supporter, my wife, Reta and our daughter, Kayla.

I will be sharing my time with my colleague, the member for the great riding of Waterloo—Wellington.

The Minister for International Trade has made excellent points in regard to our involvement in the free trade area of the Americas. Let me just reiterate that in the case of agriculture and agrifood, the FTAA offers opportunity to promote economic growth and prosperity in Canada.

From beginning to end our agriculture and agrifood system produces about 8.4% of the national gross domestic product, and accounts for about one in seven of all Canadian jobs. Canada's agriculture and agrifood sector provides more than $120 billion in food products, both domestically and internationally. The agriculture and agrifood sector is a major player in contributing to Canada's economy.

An important part of that equation is trade. Trade has been and continues to be vitally important to the Canadian agriculture and agrifood industry. In fact, it accounts for a good half of all farm sales. Each year we export about $20 billion in agriculture and agrifood products. With those sales, Canada's share of overall world agriculture and agrifood trade is edging closer to the ambitious goal set by the industry of capturing 4% of the world's agrifood trade by the year 2005.

With our relatively small population and our incredible capacity for agriculture production, it is only natural that Canada is a food exporter. This commitment to trade with nations around the world has put Canada at the forefront of the movement to strengthen the international trading system in agriculture and agrifood products. The new export opportunities trade agreements have provided for agriculture and agrifood products have created jobs and boosted economic stability, both in rural communities and urban centres.

The government is working on several fronts to increase trade in the agriculture and agrifood sector. The FTAA is one of those. The FTAA is an historic opportunity to unite 34 countries of the Americas in a vast new free trade area. It is a market with a combined population of more than $800 million and GDP of $17 trillion, and it is right in our neighbourhood.

It is only logical that we would negotiate an agreement that would enhance our trade and investment opportunities with our neighbours in the Americas.

Canada has truly become a nation of the Americas. As the Prime Minister once said “Geography has made Canada a country of the Americas. History, and especially recent history, has seen a steady growing sense among Canadians that our future is closely linked to that of our neighbours in the hemisphere”.

By its very nature, the FTAA will achieve for exports of our agrifood products greater improvements in market access to the countries of the hemisphere where currently they face relatively high tariffs. At the same time, in the WTO negotiations we will actively seek to achieve a more level playing field through the elimination of export subsidies and the substantial reduction or elimination of trade distorting domestic support. We will continue to ensure that the ability of Canadians to operate the orderly marketing systems necessary for stability and profitability is preserved.

By participating in the FTAA, our overall objective is to deepen and broaden our relationship with the Americas. We just have to look at the Canada-U.S. free trade agreement, which became NAFTA in 1994 when Mexico joined, to see how Canada has benefited from previous trade agreement.

In 1989, the year the Canada-U.S. free trade agreement came into effect, Canadian agrifood exports to the U.S. were about $3.6 billion. Ten years later they had more than tripled to $13.2 billion. I should also point out that in 1989 we imported more agrifood products from the United States than we exported to them. Today we have a net agrifood trade surplus with the U.S. of more than $3 billion.

While the FTAA may not produce the same magnitude of agrifood trade expansion as that which we experienced with the U.S., there is good reason to believe that the FTAA offers significant growth opportunities for our agrifood exports to the hemisphere.

These closer ties with other countries of the Americas are already paying off. Our two-way trade with Latin America and the Caribbean has more than doubled what it was five years ago. In total, Canadian investment in this region has reached $15 billion.

Trade is crucial to Canada. It has created millions of jobs for Canadians and it will create millions more in the next century. With the negotiation of free trade spanning the Americas this prosperity will be shared throughout the hemisphere.

As host of the summit of the Americas in Quebec City this April, Canada is taking a leadership role in ensuring that the FTAA negotiations will succeed to the benefit of all countries in the Americas.

I believe our efforts over the next few years will pay off in spades down the road, as people of every country in this hemisphere reap the benefits of increased prosperity through trade and investments. I look forward, as I know the Canadian agriculture and agrifood sector does, to continue to work and trade closely with our neighbours across the Americas. The fact is that establishing freer and fairer global agricultural trade is critical to the long term viability of our farms and the prosperity of our rural communities and indeed the country.

[James Rajotte, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I agreed with many of the comments the hon. member made.

Our agriculture and agrifood sector will benefit from lowering trade barriers. That is why the official opposition is generally supportive of liberalizing trade barriers which will allow for the freer flow of goods, services and capital. However, food producers and food manufacturers are interested in accountability and transparency in government.

This motion, which seems reasonable to me, is about not renegotiating the agreement but bringing it before the House. This would allow parliamentarians, the representatives of the people of Canada, to debate it, deliberate on it and either ratify it or not. Is that not our proper role? Could my hon. colleague address that question?

[Larry McCormick, Liberal, Hastings—Frontenac—Lennox And Addington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we certainly must work to lower the trade barriers because our producers and farmers deserve the very best opportunities that are available. They produce the finest products, the safest and the best food in the world. I can testify to that. The opportunities are there and they deserve them.

Our farmers have faced a real challenge in the last couple of years. Mother nature produced a lot of bad conditions for crops and the unfair subsidies from the EU and the United States have not helped either.

I would ask that we all work together on the FTAA situation so that we can benefit the producers and the people in the rural areas. Agriculture is very important to all people in Canada.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite mentioned in his response to the member from the Alliance the unfair subsidies from the United States. I am interested in that comment linked with his earlier comment during his speech wherein he said that trade with the United States had tripled over the last 10 years. I believe his figures were $3.6 billion to something like $13.2 billion.

One cannot help but wonder whether or not there is a relationship between the explosion in trade between the two countries and the fact that the Canadian government, because of that $13.2 billion, does not want to get into any serious argument or challenge to the United States about unfair trade subsidies, which the member and the parliamentary secretary referred to.

I would like him to comment on that development and see if he agrees that it is unfair. If it is unfair, why is Canada not doing something directly about it?

[Larry McCormick, Liberal, Hastings—Frontenac—Lennox And Addington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my hon. colleague, who was a very valuable member of our agricultural standing committee in the last session, as I hope he will be this session.

I am not sure whether any one of us could do more about the unfair subsidies and the situation today than our Prime Minister has done. Our Prime Minister spoke first to President Bush about the situation facing our farmers in regard to the subsidies. Of course President Bush went on to talk about other things, such as what he wanted and what he wanted from us. Our Prime Minister told the president we could work on those things but that he first needed a commitment that we would work to make a more level playing field for our producers.

[Loyola Hearn, Progressive Conservative, St. John's West, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the member talk about the movement of goods and services between countries. How does he rationalize his government's stand on the movement of hydro power from Labrador to the markets when the government has always opposed a power corridor through Quebec?

[Larry McCormick, Liberal, Hastings—Frontenac—Lennox And Addington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question and I also would support any agreements of any kind with our provinces that would benefit the great province that the member represents, Newfoundland. I know we have barriers between provinces that are sometimes more excessive than those we have across the international borders, and I think it is something I would certainly support and work with.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I want to say what a great honour it is to follow the eloquence of the hon. member from Hastings—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, and I will tell the House why. It is that not only does he know what is in the best interests of his constituents in Ontario, but he also knows a great deal as parliamentary secretary about matters relating to agriculture, so I listen to him with great interest.

In fact, I was hoping to ask him a question, but of course other members preceded me. He certainly knows a great deal when it comes to agriculture so I was very interested in his comments. This is a very important issue in terms of the free trade agreement area of the Americas and the kinds of things that Canada needs to do with its neighbours in the western hemisphere. It is a dynamic region. It is something we need to ensure we in Canada do in the best interests of all Canadians.

As has been pointed out, the area itself has eight hundred million people. That is not even one-sixth of the world's population, yet they account for one-third of the world's economic activity. That is a great deal, and that is something we in Canada and we as Canadians need to tap into. It represents, as the hon. member preceding me indicated, $11 trillion. The combined gross domestic product of the Americas, then, is greater than that of the European Union.

It is no wonder, then, that given all these facts the leaders of the western hemisphere believe in the potential here. What we want to do as Canadians and what we want to do as a country is ensure that we tap into this very important area and that we do so effectively on the social, the political and the economic fronts to ensure that we promote democracy, development and growth for all of us, in a manner consistent with what I believe are the values of Canada and ultimately the values that all of us can share.

At the Miami summit in 1994, the leaders ensured and endorsed a declaration and a plan of action that expressed a common commitment to strengthening democracy and creating greater prosperity for everyone. They also committed themselves at that time to practical measures to improve health care, to increase access to quality education and to protect biodiversity. They committed themselves to taking collective action against the scourge of drugs and corruption and to expanding and deepening dialogue with civil society on regional priorities.

At the second summit in Santiago in 1998, this was furthered. The co-operation that had existed in 1994 in Miami was developed even further, more in an incremental fashion but also in a manner consistent with the movement forward that we anticipated would in fact be in place. At that conference in Santiago, leaders once again endorsed action to support development of democratic institutions. Human rights, again a very topical issue, was at the top of the agenda. Also included was enhanced transparency. Of course with that, there was the respect for the rule of law. They gave specific instructions to begin the process of negotiating the free trade area of the Americas.

Once it is complete the FTAA will be the world's largest free trade area. That is something I believe that we in Canada need to keep in focus and keep in mind, because that is huge in terms of social, political and economic realities. We need to remember that.

In short, then, the summit of the Americas process offers numerous opportunities, not only for Canada but for the countries in the western hemisphere. I believe that in the process we will enhance the reputation of Canada and its ability to conduct business and do the kinds of things that are required. It is a huge tangible opportunity for all of us in this area. I think it underscores the commitment of the government, our Prime Minister, the cabinet and indeed all caucus members, to ensure that we export and do the kinds of things that are in the best interests of business and the people who work with business in Canada.

If there is one sector that I want to identify today during my time in the House, it is the service sector, and not only what it means for Canada but what it can do in terms of Canada exporting into that area.

I want to remind you, Mr. Speaker, and all members in the House that the service sector is a key engine of Canada's economy. It is responsible for more than two-thirds of Canada's GDP. We have to think about that for a minute. That is huge in terms of what it represents. Almost three-quarters of employment, 10,500,000 jobs and nearly 90% of all new job creation in Canada, is now directly related to the service sector. Why? It is clear. That is the kind of economy we are in. That is the kind of economy we stand to benefit by and indeed export to that part of the world. It is leading the transformation of the Canadian economy into a knowledge based economy.

More employees in the service sector are highly educated and enjoy high weekly salaries, for example, much beyond the average. Again that is something that underpins our economic security and stability. Services are at the heart of Canada's innovation system. For example, communications, financial services and technical business services are among the most innovative industries in Canada.

As a trading nation, Canada counts on service exports to other countries. In so doing, it strengthens the prosperity for all of us here in Canada. Not counting Canada's direct investment abroad in service companies, Canada is the twelfth largest exporter of services in the world. That is phenomenal if we really think about it. Canada exported $51.8 billion worth of services in 1999 alone. Canadian companies such as SNC-Lavalin, Teleglobe, Enbridge and Hydro-Québec are among the world's leaders in their fields. Their expertise is sought around the world, and rightfully so, because they have so much to offer.

Though service exports only account for 12% of total Canadian exports, Canada's trade in services is increasing at a much greater pace than is its trade in other areas. Given the importance of trade for our country, we can say without fear of exaggeration, I believe, that improving market access for our service providers abroad is vital for our economy here at home and for the prosperity we enjoy.

The argument for supporting Canada's service exports is particularly eloquent when it comes to the Americas. Canada's commercial services exports to FTAA countries, excluding the U.S. and Mexico, were worth $1.9 billion in 1998, up from $787 million in 1993, which shows an increase of 19% in terms of what potential exists.

To wrap up, all I am saying by way of a quick conclusion is this. Countries like Argentina, Chile, Costa Rica, Venezuela, Columbia and Brazil are all key existing or potential export markets for Canada. This is something that all of us should be supporting. I hope that all of us in the House do, because it stands to underpin the very foundation of Canada's economy.

I know that at the end of the day people from wherever they are in Canada expect us as a government to ensure the prosperity and sustainability of the economy here in Canada. One of the best ways to do it is to open up the borders for trade and to export these kinds of things, and especially, as I pointed out, services, into the FTAA. As a result, all of us will prosper and benefit.

Let us join, then, with the hemisphere's leaders in having confidence in ourselves and our region. We now have the stability, the transparency and the economic growth record that will allow trade to increase and thrive. The countries of the region are good economic partners for Canada and for each other. At the end of the day not only they but we too in Canada will benefit. What does that mean? It is good news for Canada as a country and good news for all Canadians.

Let us get behind Canada. Let us support Canada in this all important effort and let us do the right thing. The right thing is to support the FTAA and to trade accordingly.

[Keith Martin, Canadian Alliance, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the parliamentary secretary two separate questions. The first one is easy. Will he pursue with his colleagues an aggressive removal of the double taxation that compromises the ability of our exporters to export our products internationally and impedes the ability of other countries to invest in Canada?

Second, we want free trade as well as fair trade. With the explosion of globalization we have had an explosion of international organized crime. Half the crime in our country today is attributed to organized crime. Will the Parliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General of Canada ask his minister to work with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to take an aggressive approach, with other countries, and to start to take a leadership and international approach to deal with measures on organized crime?

Half the crime in our country is rooted in organized crime. This is not only a domestic problem but an international problem, which deals not only with money laundering but with narcotics, endangered species and weapons. We need to take a leadership role with our partners. Will the hon. member take this to his minister so we can take a leadership role with other countries?

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Waterloo—Wellington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for those two questions. First, on taxation, we as a trading nation have consistently put in place the mechanisms that allow us to trade in an effective and efficient manner and we will continue to do so. After all, that is who we are as a country and what we are all about: to trade and do it well. We stand to benefit so much by it. As a result of making sure that we have the kinds of vehicles in place to ensure that happens, we can do it and we can do it well. We have shown that time and again by way of trade and we will continue to work effectively in that area.

With respect to organized crime, we have taken and will continue to take the kinds of measures necessary to ensure that we do the right thing in this area. The member is right on in terms of it being a pervasive problem that goes to the very corruption that is often seen in a variety of areas.

We have worked with our American counterparts and we are working with others in this hemisphere and elsewhere around the world, for that matter, with Interpol and others, when it comes to putting in place the kinds of mechanisms and policing enhancement and requirements that underscore Canada's commitment to ensure that we do everything possibly we can with respect to ensuring that it comes to an end, at least as much as we can given the resources at hand and the partners we have. That is a commitment the government has given and it is one that we continue to stand by. I think it is important that we do so.

I want to say while I have the chance that I am a little disappointed in the Alliance Party for having zero position on this FTAA position. It is all very well for their members to get up and question members while they are speaking and such, but I looked through the party platform, for example. Does the party have anything on FTAA? Not a thing. Zero. It is a little hard to take in the sense that one would think that of all people in the House their members would have a consistent position when it comes to trading, business, capitalism, prosperity, economy and profit making. No, they just do not have it. I was scrounging around trying to find it but it just does not exist.

The reform alliance people should get their act together. They should try to secure a position. Unlike what the former leader did in Hong Kong when he raked Canada over the coals, he and his new leader and the reform alliance people to a person should stand once and for all and be counted as defending Canada. They should stand and defend Canada's ability to trade and Canada's ability to do great things. They should be positive instead of always negative. That is their downfall.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise today to speak to the Bloc motion introduced by the member for Joliette, whom I thank.

When I heard about the draft motion asking “that this House demand that, in order to ensure openness, the government bring any draft agreement on the Free Trade Zone of the Americas before the House so that it may be debated and put to a vote before ratification by the Government of Canada”, a few images came to my mind which in my view should set the stage for our reflection.

This free trade agreement will have a significant impact for decades. As the father of three children aged 17, 15 and 10, I wonder about the environment in which our children will be living. Finally, this agreement will define the framework for the new economic reality, free trade across the three Americas.

When the time comes to decide on the framework within which this agreement will operate for several years to come, I want to ensure that the decision will be made by the elected representatives of the people, those who have the mandate not only to carry on trade, but also to see to the distribution of wealth in a continent-wide society, which is indeed quite important.

The second image that came to my mind when I read the draft motion was the member for Lac-Saint-Jean—Saguenay when, three years ago, he walked out of the House carrying his seat on his head to bring it to his constituents. His action created quite an uproar; it did not go unnoticed.

In the final analysis, it was a strong, profound and important symbolic gesture aimed at condemning the way globalization is currently working, and the fact that elected representatives do not have enough of a say.

We can say that, a few months after the MAI negotiations, we had a narrow escape thanks to the action of the French prime minister, Mr. Jospin, that followed a more public action. The draft agreement had been posted on the Internet and people realized then that the agreement would have a significant impact on the sovereignty of states.

I would not like us to realize 10, 15 or 20 years later that we had rubber stamped something that would put the people of the Americas at a disadvantage, or that we had agreed to it after the fact.

I am a bit surprised at the Liberal government's attitude today, because it is already Canada's practice to examine this sort of issue in advance. The sort of examination that the Bloc Quebecois is seeking today was conducted before the FTA and NAFTA were signed. It was done in the House. Now, the Liberals seem to be opposed.

It is true, however, that the two other agreements were not negotiated by the Liberals. They inherited these agreements, and, once in power, were obliged to sing a different tune in order to implement them, since they were already signed.

Still, I am a bit surprised at the Liberal government's attitude. It is important that we be able to express our views before the agreement is ratified, and that we be able to hold a full debate. A number of questions were raised here, and I would like to pick up on a few that strike me as important.

For instance, there was the whole issue of the working conditions of people within this free trade area. Will that be covered in this agreement?

In the speech he gave in Vancouver on February 9, 2001, the Minister for International Trade said:

In a globalized, increasingly interdependent world, each country's well-being will depend upon the health and vitality of markets abroad. Those conditions are best achieved in an environment of good governance and in stable, prosperous and open societies—

We are talking about governance and stable societies.

—conditions fostered by freer trade.

Nowhere in the speech by the Minister for International Trade concerning Canada as a backer of the FTAA are there any concerns of a social or environmental nature. These are the areas in which my constituents want to know the content of the agreement. Are there things that will affect us personally?

It is worthwhile heeding past examples. For instance, we have NAFTA with the United States, but were required to sign a separate agreement on lumber which forced four provinces to raise their royalty fees and their compensation payments.

Now we are in a situation where everyone in Canada wishes we could return to free trade per se. If we had negotiated a free trade agreement that did not give in so much to the Americans in this area, perhaps we would not have had to submit to this agreement on lumber. That is one concrete example. This means that the FTAA agreement will have an impact down the line on Rivière-du-Loup, La Pocatière, and everywhere else in Quebec and Canada. These are not sterile debates, but concrete things we are discussing, important matters that will make it possible, or impossible, for our families to have the proper social or economic conditions to develop their full potential.

What applies to our families applies also to those in other countries. This type of agreement is not entered into merely to increase Canada's market capacity. In my opinion, looking at it in this way does not augur well for sustainable development, a worthwhile and satisfactory future.

I have given the lumber example, but there are others. We have just been through the business about Brazilian beef. How will quality control of food products work within the big market of all the Americas? We need to know how the clauses have been negotiated in order to avoid sacrificing for market advantage the health of peoples in the various countries. Care must be taken to ensure that there is control, that a certain level of quality is respected, as we have tried to do within our sovereign states. There must be sufficient protection for the aspects we will have in common. Parliaments have a watchdog role to play in this, a role of representing the public. That is what the Bloc Quebecois motion is drawing attention to today.

We talked earlier about organized crime. Indeed when trade is liberalized, it is clear that illegal things are permitted more easily because there are fewer bureaucratic constraints or basic ones like customs. That does not mean there must not be a free trade area of the Americas, but it must happen under reasonable conditions regarding justice and the environment as well as working conditions and there must be sufficient protection.

I find the position of the Minister for International Trade rather paradoxical. He says:

We know that increased trade is synonymous with more jobs for Canadians. We will create a unique occasion to unify the hemisphere as never before.

We would like to know what the Government of Canada thinks of the proposal of a common currency. Would this be negotiated, not necessarily for inclusion in the agreement itself, but in order to see how it might be managed in the future? It would transform economic relations between countries.

We are all entitled to ask these questions. People want to know that these issues are being defended.

In view of this, I think the Bloc motion is very justified, because it will ensure that the position of Quebec and Canada in the negotiations will be that of the public as a whole and that we do not end up with something that was negotiated on the sly.

We might avoid a few blunders and the positions involving trade taken by a department such as international trade. It would be tempered by social and environmental considerations, which will mean that, in the end FTAA will permit the sustainable development of the three Americas, will not be a tool just to promote trade solely for the benefit of certain businesses but will benefit all of the people of the Americas.

[Pat O'Brien, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for International Trade]

Mr. Speaker, I know the member asked a question about common currency. I would simply recall for him the words said earlier today during question period, if I heard them correctly, by the Minister of Foreign Affairs, which were that this was not something that was of any interest to Canada now or in the foreseeable future. I think the Prime Minister made similar statements not too long ago.

I understand that the member has his own riding and indeed the province of Quebec where I suppose he is aiming message. However I have to take him up on the issue and ask him a question.

It is simply incorrect to say this deal is being negotiated in a back room. There has never been a wider consultation with Canadians on a proposed trade deal. The member knows full well that members of the Bloc had ample opportunity at SCFAIT, the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade, to share their views, and they did so very aggressively and eloquently.

How can the member deny that input was provided? There have been wide and extensive consultations with people in Quebec, with NGOs and with ministers, including the minister of Quebec.

Does the member not understand that the process proposed in the Bloc motion is in direct contravention to the way all other trade deals between Canada and any other country have been negotiated?

The process that the government would seek to follow, in bringing a signed deal to the House of Commons for full review and possible amendment and then voting on enabling legislation, is the exact process that has been followed for NAFTA, the WTO, the Canada-Chile agreement and the Canada-Israel agreement.

Would the member comment on that? Does he not see that it is the Bloc's motion, specifically the words “draft legislation” in the motion, that seeks to make a major change in the way Canada has done trade deals in the past?

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, I am not impressed by the hon. member's answer on a common currency. A few years ago, his whole party was against free trade, and then it completely reversed its position.

It is just like the antimissile shield. A couple of weeks ago, when he met with the prime minister of Russia, the Prime Minister said that he was against that policy. When he met the American president, he was in favour. Now that he is in China, we do not know where he stands.

The Prime Minister and the Liberal Party can change their minds quite fast. He will soon realize, concerning the common currency, the proposal put forward by the Bloc Quebecois a few months ago, that the American and Mexican presidents are now discussing it. Before long, the Prime Minister of Canada and the hon. member will have to apologize for what they are saying today.

Concerning the free trade agreement, the hon. member misunderstood my remarks. I never said it was negotiated behind closed doors. I said that the agreement that was negotiated did not include the right provisions.

If we want to take advantage of our past experience, we had better make sure the next agreement does not rely on the same type of relations with the Americans. Even if the United States is a major player, Canada and other sovereign countries must have a chance to be adequately involved.

In fact, if Quebec had been a sovereign country, we would not have acted like we did. We would have seen to it that we played a role that reflected our reality, in particular on the softwood lumber issue. We would not have had to deal with what Canada eventually imposed on us.

Today, the Bloc Quebecois is not seeking to blame the government for everything it has done in the past. We are only saying that our constituents, our fellow citizens, want to know what these agreements are all about.

They have come to realize that, in the past, things were slipped by them from time to time. They do not want this to happen again. They expect members of parliament to do more than rubber-stamp the government's decisions. We should be able to exert some kind of influence to ensure that these agreements have human impact. We should act as responsible elected representatives of the people in our society.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Laurentides, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise today in the House and speak to the motion introduced by the member for Joliette. This is a motion demanding that the government bring any draft agreement on the free trade area of the Americas before the House before ratification by the Government of Canada.

For a number of years now, there has been much talk about integrating the American continent. The free trade area of the Americas project is a very ambitious one.

The idea is to bring the various countries of the Americas together within one economic group and to implement a regional system based on the principles of rules of law, free trade and democracy, in order to raise the standard of living and improve working conditions so as to ensure sustainable development and respect for the various cultural entities. The free trade area of the Americas comprises the 34 democratically elected governments on the continent, representing a market of 800 million consumers, with a combined GDP of some $10 trillion U.S.

This new economic entity could, without a doubt, cause major social and economic upheaval in the societies involved in this bold plan. But, despite the extreme importance of the undertaking, there is a breathtaking democratic oversight.

Again yesterday in the House, the member for Joliette asked the government to make public the basic texts of the free trade area of the Americas negotiations. Even the institutions committee of the Quebec National Assembly, a non-partisan committee it should be pointed out, tabled a report in June 2000 entitled “Quebec and the Free Trade Area of the Americas: Political and Socioeconomic Effects”. Unanimously, the committee asked “That the final accord of the free trade area of the Americas be submitted to the elected bodies of Canada before being ratified by the federal government”. The government, as it so often does, gave us a nonsensical answer. But the question called for a very serious reply, because this is a very serious matter.

As a responsible political party, the Bloc Quebecois demands total openness from the federal government in the negotiation of international agreements such as the free trade area of the Americas.

We democratically elected Canadian parliamentarians and representatives of the public, and civil society, have the fundamental right to know what is being negotiated on our behalf and on behalf of those who elected us and whom we represent here in the House of Commons. The participation of civil society in the planning and decision making processes is no longer merely something to be considered. It must be an integral component of world governance.

Since this government took office in 1993, the ratification process of international treaties and the democratic debates on the content of these treaties have been significantly shortened.

In order to put an end to these undemocratic practices, the Bloc Quebecois tried to make the ratification process of international treaties by parliament more open and democratic by introducing, last spring, a bill to that effect, Bill C-214. Members can well imagine that the Liberals defeated this bill. Yet it provided—and this is only normal—that Canada could not negotiate or sign a treaty without first having consulted provincial governments, if that treaty dealt with a provincial jurisdiction.

Moreover, before being ratified, treaties would have had to be the object of a resolution in the House of Commons and the Minister of Foreign Affairs would have had an obligation to submit all the documents necessary for an informed debate by parliamentarians.

All that the Bloc Quebecois was asking, and is still asking, was for the Liberals to respect provincial jurisdictions, as stipulated under the constitution. This is a brief outline of the issue of openness, as perceived by my party.

However, there is another issue in which I take a great interest concerning the negotiations on the free trade area that will take place at the summit of the Americas that will be held in Quebec City, from April 20 to 22. I am referring to anything that has to do with workers' rights.

Let us make one thing very clear right from the beginning. The Bloc Quebecois demands that globalization and free trade be put in human terms. We want international treaties to include provisions to protect social rights and workers' rights, and direct reference to the obligation for nations to comply with the regulations contained in the ILO's seven basic labour conventions. These conventions have to be included in every commercial agreement that Canada signs.

Here is what these conventions say. Conventions 29 and 105 deal with the abolition of forced labour. Conventions 86 and 98 deal with the union rights pertaining to collective bargaining and employee organization, including the right to elect union representatives without any interference from the employer or the government, and the right to strike. Conventions 100 and 111 provide for equal pay for equal work and for the elimination of discrimination in the workplace. Convention 138 deals with the minimum age for admission to employment, or the abolition of child labour.

This is why we would propose to include the ILO's seven conventions on the fundamental rights of workers listed above in a continental agreement, thereby forcing employers and governments to comply with these conventions before they are allowed access to any benefits from the agreement.

Even today, on the issue of basic labour standards, there is still no link between international trade and the protection of the rights of workers.

Even though these seven ILO conventions have to be honoured regardless of a country's level of development, few countries are actually willing to allow the use of trade sanctions to enforce these standards. Moreover, the ILO has no power to force countries to endorse or to apply these standards.

Even more troubling is the fact that we still do not know if the Canadian government is willing to make the necessary efforts to ensure that social rights are respected.

As a matter of fact, last June, when he appeared before the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade, the Minister for International Trade stated that social rights had nothing to do with trade, adding that he could not do everyone else's job. Not only are these words troubling, but they are totally unacceptable and irresponsible.

In conclusion, I simply want to remind the House that, for the Bloc Quebecois, there is a precondition attached to the ratification of any trade agreement Canada might sign, such as the one regarding the free trade area of the Americas.

Such agreements must include provisions of a social nature referring directly to the obligation of the states to abide by the rules contained in the seven fundamental conventions of the ILO. It is simply a matter of basic human rights and we just cannot let it get away from us.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the speech of my colleague, who is the Bloc Quebecois labour critic.

Indeed, in this sector of activity, it is obvious that, in their original version, the free trade agreements that we have had in the past did not include a provision, a specification or a chapter that defined these conditions in an acceptable manner.

I spoke on an issue relating to fair trade, among other things, to ensure that, in our trade with other countries, the people with whom we do business will hire the employees, provide them with reasonable labour conditions and have them work in an acceptable environment.

I would like my colleague to tell the House if, indeed, it would be important to have all the relevant information to be able, not only to judge the value of the free trade agreement, but also to know the labour conditions of the people and the kind of protection they will have, since there are in the three Americas some economies that are at very different stages.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Laurentides, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question. I believe that, on the issue of labour and of children working in some countries where development is in full progress and where some children are being abused, a North American agreement should not allow this.

I believe we can move towards a level playing field and bring fairness for all workers. Children should go to school. They should not have to provide for their family. I understand that we are not all at the same level. I understand full well that adjustments will have to be made. We are not kidding ourselves. However, we all have to go in the same direction. I believe it is the most important thing. It is the basis for creating a North American economy.

Second, I have other concerns. We already talked about water exports. I used to be critic for the environment and, as such, this issue is of great concern to me.

If the federal government were to sign some kind of agreement with the rest of North America, suddenly agreeing to exporting bulk water, how would the provinces respond? Water belongs to the provinces, it belongs to provincial governments. How will such an agreement be ratified? Will the provinces have their say in the matter?

All these factors must be taken into account. Also, we have to listen to our NGOs, our non-governmental organizations. They have to have their say in these negotiations. These negotiations are not only about economic issues. Sure it is important to trade internationally, and we cannot deny this is the way we are going.

I also sincerely believe that we are going toward a common currency. There are examples of this across the world. All we have to do is take note and look at how it is being done elsewhere and improve on it at home.

I do not believe it should happen at any cost. I believe it must be done while hanging on to our main social policies, by improving further our quality of life so that everyone in this world, our children, ourselves, and the elderly, can have a better life.

We should not let trade destroy the quality of life it took us years to achieve.

Let us reach agreements in harmony with the provinces. They should not be forgotten. They are there, they have laws and they have things to protect. Things must be done in harmony, by consensus.

I am convinced that within a few years, if the federal government is open-minded enough to bring in all those who have something to say and who have a stake in all this, we might be an example for the world by reaching a North American agreement.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to take part in this debate of course. I will begin by saying that I applaud the Bloc Quebecois for bringing forth a motion like this in the sense that it is certainly a motion very worthy of debate. Too often opposition motions are merely designed to try to discredit the government or to gain cheap political points, but in this case this genuinely is a motion that deserves the kind of debate it has been getting today.

I have to say it is hard to mix one's own work and to try to follow a debate like this because each member who has spoken has had much to contribute and unfortunately I have not been able to follow every speech. I will say, however, that when it comes to deciding how I will vote on this issue I will, before I finally cast my ballot, look at the full Hansard and consider every argument that was put forward.

On the surface, however, from where I sit now, from what I have heard and from what I have read of this particular issue, I find myself half supporting the motion rather than supporting it fully. I certainly do believe that there is a great deal to be said in having a debate on this kind of subject before a treaty is finally ratified. Where I have difficulty is the part of the motion that says, and I should read the motion:

That this House demand that the government bring any draft agreement on the Free Trade Zone of the Americas before the House so that it may be debated and put to a vote before ratification—

The reality is that the government has a majority in this House and if this were put to this House after debate for ratification, what would happen is that the government would simply use its majority and it would go through.

In that sense it is a waste of the House's time, although I use that term very advisedly because in fact no debate in this House is a waste of the House's time.

A better way, it seems to me, to approach this is to do what happened just a few nights ago and have an emergency debate. We had, I guess, six hours of debate on the farm crisis the other night, and this was initiated in fact by the opposition I do believe. Well, both sides, actually. From the backbenches in one sense. That was an excellent debate. It touched on many, many aspects of the farm crisis and I think people watching probably gained much from it.

This whole question of a free trade zone for the Americas, which is coming up as a topic of conversation or a topic of negotiation, I should say, at the summit of the Americas in Quebec City in April, is an issue that has broad ramifications for the country. I would suggest that it goes even further than that. It has international ramifications and I think a debate would be very much in order.

Just to give you a little bit of history, Mr. Speaker, the summit that is coming up in April is part of a progress of summits that actually goes back to 1956. There was the first summit involving the Organization of American States. That was followed by a larger summit in 1967 which was initiated, I believe, if memory serves me right, by President Kennedy. That led to an attempt to bring Latin America under a free trade zone to the exclusion of the United States and the exclusion of Canada.

That did not work out in the long run, but the idea remained. The idea just sort of went into limbo for a long time. It was restarted by President Clinton in 1994 primarily because the world had changed dramatically. What had happened, the Soviet Union had collapsed; the east-west confrontation had ended; and the world suddenly became a patchwork of states, each trying to gain political advantage and, even more important, economic advantage.

Then, Mr. Speaker, you saw this progress starting in the very early nineties toward a World Trade Organization, toward global free trade in the broadest sense. We have gone very far in that direction, far in that direction in the sense that global free trade now involves countries that can trade with Canada, and the United States for that matter, and trade to their advantage and to our advantage.

Just in passing, I believe I am splitting my time with someone. I believe it is the secretary of state for international development. I certainly am sure that she will be listening to what I have to say and building on it when her turn comes.

Anyway, to carry on with the story, and I had better carry on fairly rapidly, the summit arises out of global free trade, the collapse of the Soviet Union and initiative by President Clinton. Initial talks were held in Miami in 1994 and one of the things that came out of those talks was the concept of a free trade zone of the Americas.

Remember, Mr. Speaker, these talks are not just about economics. I think as a result of the change in geo-politics, if you will, and geo-economics, it was recognized that it was in the Americans' interest, in the interest of the United States, to form closer alliances politically, economically and even militarily, and all of these issues are on the table when we come to a summit.

But the other aspect to the Bloc's motion that interested me was this concept of a North American free trade zone because I think something more is going on there than what has been the subject of the debates even in the newspapers.

I get the sense that what is happening here is that the Americans are perceiving a need to build a kind of firewall around the rest of the world: put this wall around North and South America in a sense to look after the possibility that someday they may have to shut out some of the rest of the world.

Individual colleagues made observations about human rights. I remember the member for Medicine Hat was commenting on the contradiction that we have when a country like Canada or the United States supports a third world country, only to deny access to their goods and put tariffs on their goods because of human rights problems.

We can take the example of some countries in the far east that have now just about entirely taken over the manufacture of textiles, or rugs for that matter, where these goods are manufactured in labour conditions that would be unacceptable in North America.

We face a dilemma there because if we shut off those goods, and I would suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, the shirt that I am wearing right now was probably manufactured at very, very low cost in a third world country.

It is my impression that the United States and Canada perceive that we cannot carry on global free trade indefinitely under such circumstances when we are indeed encouraging even child labour in these third world countries, which want to do it because they want to sell the product here, but we get into this terrible contradiction.

So the answer would appear to be something like a global free trade zone where standards can be set for human rights for the way labour is utilized to produce product, and at the same time preserve a market that will be sufficiently large for the United States to benefit primarily and the rest of us to benefit secondarily.

In the long term I have a great deal of sympathy for those protesters that appeared at Seattle and some of these other summits because I think we have to be very careful when we look at global free trade, or even the free trade of the Americas, that what we may be doing is creating dependencies that may put off a crisis among human beings, a crisis in terms of being able to produce product and feed ourselves that we may have to face in the years to come.

[Keith Martin, Canadian Alliance, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask my hon. friend from the other side a simple question that relates to a comment made by the parliamentary secretary to the solicitor general. He said that the government had done everything in its power to pursue free trade.

I suggest that is fantasy and not fact. The government has pursued free trade on the one hand but has tied the hands of our exporters and companies by keeping very high taxes. That creates an uneven playing field for exporters. It has also imposed, and continues to fail to act to remove, the interprovincial barriers to trade that compromise our exporters and companies from competing on a level playing field.

My question is simply this. Will the member ask his ministers to pursue, with the same zeal that they do internationally, the removal of interprovincial barriers to trade and the reduction of taxes in the country that choke off the ability of our private sector to compete?

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

Mr. Speaker, well oddly enough sometimes it is harder for the federal government to negotiate with the provinces than it is with other states.

Of course we want to get as free an exchange of skills and products as we can in this country. However, it is a two way street on that. Sometimes it is very difficult to get the agreements that we would like from the provinces. I suggest that the province of Quebec is a perfect example, when there were barriers to the free exchange of skilled labour and jobs and employment across the border that is merely the Ottawa River.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to remind my colleague of the approach suggested by the hon. member for Laurentides. We are not asking for sanctions or standards. We want these agreements to uphold fundamental rights while respecting the culture and the heritage of each of the nations concerned. We favour a collaborative approach.

For instance, although child labour is unacceptable, it cannot be eliminated overnight. As one of the wealthier countries in the world, we have a duty to help the poorer countries to solve their problems within a deadline. What we need to do so is a strong political will that the government seems unable to express except in its empty rhetoric.

It looks like the government is ignoring what everyone in Canada, in Quebec and in most parts of the western world is decrying. There are some democratic shortcomings to this free trade area of the Americas proposal but also to globalization.

There is more and more talk of executive democracy. It will no longer be parliaments that make decisions but executives. What is being proposed to us with rejection of the Bloc Quebecois motion is to sanction or institutionalize the fact that democracy is now being exercised through the executives around the PMO, with parliament no longer having a role to play. I do not accept that view.

I think that by rejecting the motion, the government is going to send the signal that our concerns, needs and demands are no longer to be channelled through parliamentarians, and that we now have to find the means of being heard out in the street. This is irresponsible, in my opinion. Thus, passing our motion is a gesture of responsibility, one that adds value to the role of parliamentarians and one that I would call the democratic way of resolving problems.

Does the hon. member admit that democracy is getting short shrift in the creation of the free trade area of the Americas?

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I must say that if that was a question or comment I look forward with eager anticipation for the speech that is to come.

I do not think the member opposite listened to me very carefully because I did assure him that the whole question of child labour is something that should be debated, and that there should be a debate in the House on the question of a free trade zone. There is no doubt in my mind.

But the member has simply ignored the fact that if we put it to a vote, the government would simply pass it because it would use its majority. We can have the debate and we should have the debate, but it does not have to be through legislation. It can be done through a simple resolution of the House.

Mr. Speaker, if the member's questions are that long, we could have a 12 hour or a 15 hour debate in which he could speak for 40 minutes and he could get all these things onto the record.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Minister for International Cooperation]

Mr. Speaker, these trade talks open a political space. They deal with a host of issues we need to pay attention to. One is the economic issue, but we also are discussing social issues plus governance and human rights. These are very important things that must be discussed at the same time.

Canada is therefore working to place development at the centre of the Quebec City summit declaration. Canada's goal is an agenda that balances economic and social issues. Social and economic issues are one and the same. They go together. That helps poor countries in Latin America harness and manage globalization to reduce their poverty.

Healthy people make globalization work for them. Educated people make globalization work for them. Effective governments that respect human rights make globalization work for their citizens as well.

Efficient markets create prosperity, but we must remember that prosperity must be shared and equitable. It must be shared by all sectors of society, otherwise it is not efficient or good for prosperity and the markets will not work efficiently for everyone.

It is important to remember when we talk about trade that at the summit the Government of Canada will also be talking about democracy, good governance, human rights, social issues and an equitable sharing of prosperity. Those are very important issues. They are issues Canada has put on the table, and they will be the themes discussed at the summit of the Americas, which we are proud to host.

The Government of Canada, through my department, is committed to working with Central and South America. Our goal is a prosperous, stable hemisphere characterized by healthy and educated citizens: in sum, Mr. Speaker, a better world for all of the Americas, north and south.

We want to ensure that our whole hemisphere, which is one of the hemispheres with the biggest disparity between rich and poor, is in fact assisted.

There is no question that trade is important and that is one of the themes. However, Canada has been extremely strong at the summits to make sure that we include social issues, human rights, governance and democracy as part of the themes.

That is what I did when I travelled in the Americas. That was my discussion with my counterparts and ministers of other governments to ensure that these themes are strong and that they are an integral part of the discussion at the summit of the Americas. The outcome is people based and focuses on the benefit of human development.

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to the minister and her plan for development of the Latin American part of the summit of the free trade zone.

I do not think we have any problems with what she said. We understand the goals she is talking about. We understand Canada extending a helping hand for good governance, for democracy and for all those issues that will have a major impact on Latin America and which will help it come into free trade with America. We must see that they are also prosperous. We cannot live alone on an island of prosperity. We agree with that.

The question is why can parliamentarians not debate and ratify international agreements that the government signs. The FTAA is one of the examples which can be done over here. Our main point is that we want the ability, as elected representatives, to have those agreements come here so we can discuss them. We may be sharing the same goals which she outlined. However, at least parliamentarians and everybody would have an open forum, not just this website that they keep talking about. Her comments on that one would be appreciated.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as the Minister for International Trade has said many times, Canada's position is public. I know my colleague has asked the other participants to agree to make their positions public as well in order that not only all Canadians but the members of all of those countries can participate in the discussion.

The issue is broad and must be discussed by society at large. Our position has been made public and the minister has made that clear. Certainly our colleagues in parliament can discuss Canada's position. We are discussing it with NGOs, civil society and with any Canadian citizen who wants to participate. It is not a secret. It is not being kept in abeyance.

The minister has made Canada's position public and in fact has asked other countries to also agree to make their positions public. Nothing is being hidden.

We should be proud of the fact that not only is Canada hosting the summit of the Americas, which is a north-south dialogue, but at the same time we are leading the way and insisting on putting on the agenda issues which are fundamental to the equilibrium and balance of our hemisphere with respect to social infrastructure, democracy and human rights and to make sure that we have a stable hemisphere, in terms of economic, social and democratic issues. There is no hidden agenda.