Debates of Feb. 15th, 2001

Supply

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am told that the word “misleading” used by my hon. colleague, a man I greatly respect, is apparently unparliamentary. It is your call, but I would like to respond.

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Toronto Centre—Rosedale, ON]

I withdraw my words. I used the word strictly in a straightforward manner.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I expected no less of the person who is again going to chair the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs.

I wish to respond to my colleague's two arguments. The first is that there is no such thing as the negotiating text to which we are referring. I regret to have to inform him that, should this be the case, people might as well be prepared for the free trade area of the Americas never to be created.

I might also state that I have seen the document prepared for the WTO negotiations. The state it was in just before they were to be held explains why an agreement was never forthcoming.

I think it would be misinforming this House to pretend that a process of seeking a consensus between the holders of the most extreme positions is not already under way. There is most certainly a basic text. That is one thing. There are most certainly clearly identified issues. That is the other thing.

I would want us to have access to that information. As well, in connection with my hon. colleague's constitutional argument that the Constitution would have to be changed to allow such a debate, I will investigate that in the Constitution. If that is the case, we would have to move rapidly.

How is it that Brian Mulroney submitted to the public for consultation and to parliament a free trade agreement that was later ratified? Think of the dramatic change represented by the free trade area of the Americas. Something would have to be done. But we know that Canada is in a constitutional straitjacket which makes any change impossible.

Business Of The House

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Following consultations with all parties in the House, I believe you would find consent to put and adopt the following motion. I move:

That at the conclusion of the present debate on today's Opposition Motion, all questions necessary to dispose of this motion be deemed put, a recorded division deemed requested and deferred to the expiry of the time provided for Government Orders on Tuesday, February 20, 2001.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Is there unanimous consent for the hon. parliamentary secretary to move the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of the motion and of the amendment.

Supply

[Pat O'Brien, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for International Trade]

Mr. Speaker, I take this first opportunity to congratulate you on your appointment to the chair. I thank the people of my riding of London—Fanshawe. I also thank my wife, my children, and all my very dedicated campaign workers who have made my election for the third time to this place possible. I am deeply honoured and I thank them.

I am very pleased to address the House today on the very important issue raised by the opposition, the free trade area of the Americas. The past decade has been one in which the hemisphere has made remarkable progress and in which Canada's relations with its closest friends and neighbours have developed in new and exciting ways.

We will celebrate this progress and the spirit of co-operation that has transformed our community when the Prime Minister welcomes the leaders of the democratically elected governments of the region to the third summit of the Americas in Quebec City in April.

The Americas is one of the world's most dynamic regions. Although its 800 million people are not even one-sixth of the world population, they account for more than one-third of the world's economic activity. At about $11 trillion U.S. the combined gross domestic product of the Americas is greater than that of the European Union.

At the Miami summit of the Americas in 1994, leaders endorsed a declaration and plan of action that expressed their common commitment to strengthening democracy and creating greater prosperity. They also committed themselves to practical measures to improve health care, increase access to quality education and protect biodiversity, to name but a few.

At the second summit in Santiago in 1998, leaders endorsed action to support the development of democratic institutions, protect human rights, and enhance transparency and respect for the rule of law. They also gave specific instructions to begin the process of negotiating the free trade area of the Americas. Once it is complete, the FTAA will be the world's largest free trade area.

Throughout today's debate, my colleagues and I on this side of the House will discuss in some depth the issues of access, services, investment and the need for coherence. I certainly hope hon. members across the aisle will join us in this important debate. However, I must admit that I suspect some members of the opposition will simply cast aspersions on the FTAA rather than offer constructive and realistic ideas. I would love to be proven wrong on that.

Only the opposition can simply say that everything the government does or proposes is fundamentally contrary to the interests of Canadians. The reality of governing is that we must assist Canadians in fulfilling their hopes and achieving their aspirations while providing real, meaningful assistance to the people of the Americas. The FTAA offers Canadians many more benefits that would clearly compel us to support these negotiations.

I am speaking too of the vast hemispheric dialogue on issues such as labour rights and environmental protection that have been fostered and promoted within the broader hemispheric movement. We all expect a free trade area of the Americas to create the conditions for greater prosperity. Without the chance to improve their economic situations through trade and investment, just how could poor countries of the hemisphere begin to address their real problems of poverty, of crime, of environmental degradation, and of threats to democracy and human rights?

We also know that there are vulnerable and excluded elements of our societies. There are challenges to our culture and to our values. There are indeed risks to some parts of our economies, risks that trade alone does not create and that the FTAA alone cannot resolve, but risks that concern our citizens nonetheless.

What do we do? We cannot stand still and accept matters as they currently stand in Canada or anywhere else in the hemisphere if there is a chance to make them better. The facts are clear. Canada has done very well from its openness to trade and investment and has acquired the strength and experience to do even better in the future under even better rules. Therefore we must go forward.

A key objective in the FTAA negotiations is to achieve open and secure market access for goods produced within the free trade area. The elimination of tariffs is key to this objective. Some Canadian exporters face significant tariffs in key markets for important Canadian exports. Canada therefore supports an approach that will allow for early tariff elimination for some products in order to provide exporters the opportunity to expand trade quickly and reduce costs for consumers.

At the same time all countries have domestic industries that may require time to adjust to increased import competition. Consequently we expect that a transition period which allows for the phased elimination of some tariffs will also be negotiated.

Consistent with the approach taken in other negotiations, Canada will push for the elimination of tariffs on all non-agricultural products over a period not to exceed 10 years. Canada is also examining a transitional safeguard mechanism to protect producers from unforeseen difficulties associated with hemispheric trade liberalization. To ensure that only goods produced in the hemisphere benefit from preferential tariff treatment, a Canadian objective will be to negotiate appropriate rules of origin.

If there is one sector where new access could lead to significant benefits for Canada and for Canadian businesses, it is in the area of services. The service sector is a key engine of the Canadian economy. It is responsible for more than two-thirds of Canada's GDP, almost three-quarters of employment, some 10.5 million jobs, and nearly 90% of new job creation in Canada. It is leading the transformation of the Canadian economy into a knowledge based economy.

Canada is the 12th largest exporter of services in the world, exporting some $51.8 billion worth in 1999 alone. The argument for supporting Canada's services exports is particularly eloquent when it comes to the Americas. Canada's commercial services exports to FTAA countries, excluding the United States and Mexico, were worth $1.9 billion in 1998, up from $787 million in 1993.

The Canadian telecommunications sector is enjoying tremendous success, exporting services valued at over $2 billion per year and employing some 104, 000 people. As a consequence, since 1993 the sector has been growing at a rate of just over 9% each and every year.

Still, Canadian exporters of telecommunications services face market access and regulatory restrictions in many countries of the hemisphere, in part due to the presence of telecommunications monopolies in several central and Latin American countries, the lack of transparency, predictability and timeliness in the process for awarding operating permits and licences or prohibitive fees for licensing or interconnection.

In recent years Canada's financial institutions have been very active in central and Latin America. One leading example is Scotiabank which is active in Argentina, Chile, Brazil, Costa Rica, Belize, El Salvador, Guyana, Panama, Peru, Uruguay and Venezuela.

Another good example is the National Bank which recently teamed up with three U.S. venture capital companies and a local Chilean partner to form the Corp Banca consortium in order to purchase banking institutions in South American countries.

The same is true for the insurance sector.

Another sector where Canadian expertise is renowned around the world, of course, is engineering and other related services. Canada is currently the world's third largest exporter of engineering services, and the high calibre of Canadian engineers is internationally recognized. That is why Canada is actively participating in the services negotiations under the free trade area of the Americas.

Canada has much to gain from the establishment of a comprehensive set of rules on trade and services under the FTAA. Canada's general objective in the services negotiations is to seek improved market access for Canadian service providers under a transparent and predictable rules based regime.

In the elaboration of FTAA rules on services, Canada will be guided by its existing rights and obligations in the North American Free Trade Agreement, the Canada-Chile Free Trade Agreement and the WTO General Agreement on Trade in Services, more commonly known at GATS.

While the link between trade, economic growth and jobs is well understood, the same is not true for the flip side of trade investment. Foreign investment has played a central role in Canada's development as a nation and remains essential to securing Canada's continued development and prosperity.

Canada's efforts toward a strong rules based system at the regional and multilateral levels are aimed at creating a solid basis for long term economic expansion and continued social progress. Investment rules provide for transparent, predictable and fair rules for Canadian investors, large and small.

Trade and investment rules give a medium sized economy like ours a great deal of leverage against the political pressure sometimes exerted by larger economies. Conversely, inward investment in Canada coming from the non-NAFTA countries of the Americas totalled only $3 billion in 1999.

Overall, Canada has a strong outward investment orientation in the Americas beyond the United States and Mexico. In this context, Canada has a strong interest in seeking a rules based, secure and predictable environment for investors and their investments in the hemisphere.

In the elaboration of FTAA investment rules, Canada will be guided and take into account past experiences with trade negotiations and the implementation of investment rules with other countries, including those of Latin America and the Caribbean.

Canada's main objective is to ensure a clear delineation of investment obligations that will serve our national interests. As is the case for other trade agreements, the FTAA investment chapter will allow countries to file exceptions for those measures they wish to maintain and what would otherwise not be allowed under the FTAA.

In addition, Canada will ensure that it preserves its ability to adopt or maintain regulations, administrative practices and other measures in sectors of key policy interest. I am specifically referring to our most treasured public health care system and our public education system. These are not open for debate or discussion by the Government of Canada.

The summit process ensures that economic growth through liberalized trade is linked to social development. Hemispheric co-operation on democracy, human rights, labour, employment and environmental issues, justice, health and other major issues proceeds within the same framework as the FTAA. The FTAA is complemented and reinforced by the efforts of many other ministers of the hemisphere, not just trade ministers.

For example, ministers of energy will meet in Mexico at the beginning of March. Ministers of the environment will meet in Montreal at the end of March. Finance ministers will meet in Toronto in early April. Ministers of labour will meet in Ottawa next October.

These collective and co-operative hemispheric efforts on specific issues such as labour, employment and the environment reflect an integrated approach to meeting summit commitments.

We welcome the opportunity to talk about the FTAA and we will never be shy to do so on any occasion. However the Bloc's motion is irrelevant, unfortunately, simply because the government has been at the forefront of the hemisphere in consulting openly with Canadians and with parliament. The kind of leadership my colleagues from the Bloc have called for today is something the government has demonstrated very clearly and repeatedly, and it will continue to do so.

The standing committee studied and published a report. Then the minister tabled the government's response to the report, which set the tone for our proposals for the FTAA at this stage. Had the Bloc consulted with all parties on their motion perhaps we might have been able to agree with it. Nonetheless, we on this side welcome the opportunity to debate it. I am convinced the FTAA process will benefit significantly from this parliamentary exchange on such a very important issue to the people of Canada.

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to what the parliamentary secretary had to say, to what the former parliamentary secretary had to say, and to what the former chairman of the foreign affairs committee had to say. In all their summations they have been talking about an open and transparent system.

Hon. members also talked about the standing committee looking at the issue. I would tell them that the Canadian Alliance, the official opposition, put out its minority report at that time. One of the points we brought forward was exactly what the Bloc motion is today. We want parliament to debate.

The parliamentary secretary has just said what the government has been doing, which is fine, but the fact remains that exactly what he is doing in parliament is what the Bloc and the Alliance want: to discuss it in the House.

I congratulate the hon. member on his re-election. He thanked his constituents and I would like to say that they sent him here to talk on their behalf. He should be speaking on their behalf on the FTAA.

It is an American style of system. We want to discuss it in parliament where the elected officials are. I remind him that this is precisely what Australians included in their constitution, that all international agreements should be brought into parliament to be discussed by the elected representatives. What the problem is with that issue?

[Pat O'Brien, Liberal, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his congratulations. First I want to assure him that in my 20 year career in elected public office at the municipal level and now at the federal level, if there is one thing that my constituents have been very clear about it is that they know with great certainty that I will be heard from in whatever forum in which I represent them and that certainly includes the House of Commons.

My colleague's question gives me the opportunity to do a little commercial on a trade day that we will hold in London, Ontario, on March 6, with my colleagues. Indeed, the Minister for International Trade and trade officials will be there. I will certainly be there with my other colleagues to take all the questions that people have on how they can export and take advantage of the opportunities that exist in the export markets.

I hear something of a contradiction in what my colleague from the Alliance and, indeed, colleagues from the Bloc have said here today. First and foremost they call for greater transparency and consultation, but then they demand to see the Canadian position in the House right now. That is simply a contradiction. We have filed our position on five of the nine negotiating groups. It is on the website. We are getting responses every day to them. However, we have not finalized our position on the other four groups because the consultation that the hon. member calls for is ongoing right now. With whom? It is ongoing with NGOs, with individual Canadians, with stakeholders. When the full position is developed that will be the appropriate time to engage in a national debate. The consultation being called for is simply not complete.

I say again, and I am proud to say it, that the government is the leader in these negotiations on openness and transparency and it will continue to be that.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to comment briefly on something that was said about the relationship between trade, economic development and jobs.

After World War II and until quite recently, it was true that trade, economic development and jobs went hand in hand. Usually, when people had jobs, poverty receded and social rights improved.

Nowadays, this is no longer the case. Trade, economic development and jobs can all be on the increase, and poverty can still continue to grow.

While growth has been exceptional in the United States over the past 10 years, the number of poor remains the same. Poverty rates in the United States stand at 21%, compared to an OECD average of 12%.

So we must do more than merely rely on economic growth and globalization. There is a need for mechanisms to ensure that each society, each country, each jurisdiction, has the means to ensure that social rights are respected. In this regard, Canadians and Quebecers should be worried, as should all the Americas. We must ensure that social rights are part of these agreements.

I would like the member's opinion on the following statement made at the second general conference of parliamentarians of the Americas held in Puerto Rico in July 2000:

We hope that the process of continental integration is strengthened by the participation of parliamentarians from all jurisdictions on the continent, by the transparency of debate on the creation of a free trade area of the Americas, and by the regular dissemination of the results of ongoing negotiations.

Clearly, all parliamentarians of the Americas want the process to be more transparent.

What does the member think?

[Pat O'Brien, Liberal, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, first of all allow me to congratulate my colleague from the Bloc on his very good maiden speech in the House and also on his appointment as trade critic. I look forward to constructively working with him and the other critics over the next couple of years.

The member made a very good point and one that we certainly know is valid, that is, in the midst of economic prosperity in any country, including Canada, we still have those who unfortunately are being left behind. There exists a dichotomy that none of us are happy with and it needs to be addressed. I fully agree with him on that matter.

However, on the need for more liberalized trade, I will quote from a UN report:

There is now widespread acceptance that, in the long run, the expansion of international trade and integration into the world economy are necessary instruments for promoting economic growth and reducing and eradicating poverty.

Those words come from the United Nations. They are fully endorsed by the secretary general of the United Nations, Mr. Kofi Annan, who has said that the best thing we can do for the poor in our own nation or the poor around the world is to liberalize trade. That is the best way we can address the problem of world poverty. Those words come from people far more expert than I, and I endorse them.

[Keith Martin, Canadian Alliance, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, congratulations on your new position. This is the first time you have been in the chair when I have had an opportunity to speak.

First, I congratulate the Bloc Quebecois member on his motion.

It is a very important and huge issue. I would like to ask my friend from the government two questions on two separate issues. The first deals with the opponents to free trade who we have seen in Seattle and other areas. I wonder if the hon. member would address the House and tell us what the government is going to do to address this issue, because a lot of those people actually are opposing issues and solutions that are going to help the poorest of the poor.

One of the great misnomers is that the people who oppose free trade think their actions are going to help the poorest of the poor, but in the erection of the barriers to trade that they want to actually implement, they are doing the worst possible thing for developing countries. The best thing we can do for a developing country is lessen the barriers to trade so that country can become more economically sustainable.

I would like the member to address that and also address how the government can better engage these people. They do have some important concerns in terms of freer trade and how we can deal with issues such as labour laws, labour regulations and job and working conditions.

My last point deals with addressing the issue of the movement of short term capital that has been so destabilizing in international markets. We have seen that the movement of large amounts of capital in the short term destabilized international markets. I ask the hon. member what his government is going to do to address this issue.

[Pat O'Brien, Liberal, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am so pleased to hear my colleague from the Canadian Alliance address the concern that many of us on this side of the House share as well. Very well-meaning people, some of them personal friends of mine in London, Ontario, just simply do not seem to understand the point the member has made: that the best way to address poverty here in Canada and around the world is to do what the UN is calling for and continue to liberalize trade.

I will quote UN Secretary General Kofi Annan who he said that tariffs must go. In his new report he says that rich countries should remove all barriers to goods and services from poor countries. That would put at least $100 billion a year into the pockets of the world's poor, more than double what they now get in foreign aid.

I fully endorse the member's comments on the need for liberalizing trade. The Minister for International Trade certainly does and so does everyone on this side of the House. I am pleased to agree with the member on that.

Regarding the opportunities for consultation, there have been many and there will continue to be many, both through our position on the website and with groups that can come to the standing committee. We welcome all consultation possible.

[John Williams, Canadian Alliance, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. This morning, as you may recall, at approximately 10.15 a.m. you tabled a report in the House from the Canadian Human Rights Commission. As you may also have noticed, the contents of the report were reported in the Toronto Star and in the Sun , and I heard it on the CBC radio news this morning as well.

I was able to acquire only one copy of the report from the distribution people of the House of Commons. I feel that our privileges as members of parliament are being breached in the fact that the Canadian Human Rights Commission is obviously putting its spin on this document before it is tabled in the House and before it is available to members.

How can members read the report if copies are not available?

I would ask that the Minister of Justice take up this issue with the Canadian Human Rights Commission and let the commission know that it is time it respected parliament.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member. That is not really a question of privilege, but if you wanted to pass on a message, it has been done.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise and join in the debate today, but first of all let me offer my congratulations to you on assuming your new position.

Just to remind the House and people who are watching today, the motion that we are discussing is as follows: that the government be required to subject any project or accord on a free trade agreement with the Americas to a debate and a vote before it is ratified by the government. It sounds eminently sensible.

I want to point out that our party, both as the Alliance and as the Reform Party, has for a number of years supported the idea of bringing major treaties and major free trade agreements to the House of Commons for ratification. This is entirely consistent with our current policy as well. In fact, one of my colleagues, the current House leader of the Canadian Alliance, has brought forward motions in the past recommending something very similar to what we see in today's motion.

However, in saying that I also have to point out that the other side of the House has been much less consistent in its respect for democracy when it comes to ratifying these sorts of agreements via debate and a vote in the House of Commons.

Let me take members back through a bit of the history, as I recall it, of some of the things that have occurred here over the last seven years while I have been a member of parliament and that run completely contrary not only to the letter of the motion that I just read, but also to the spirit of it.

The first one that comes to mind is the MAI, the multilateral agreement on investment. Many of my colleagues will remember just how interested the public was in that particular negotiation that was going on with Canada, the United States and several European countries. To refresh people's memories, that was a negotiation to establish some kind of protocol for investment among these 20 or so countries. The idea was that it would really encourage free trade in investment and some rules to protect companies that had invested in other countries.

I will not get into the merits of it at this point, but I do want to point out that at the time there were a number of meetings held around the country. People were very concerned about this. We all received mail. They were not concerned about it based on what was in the agreement, because they had no idea of what was being negotiated. They were concerned because they had no information. Some groups, very irresponsible groups to my mind, were spreading disinformation about what this would mean to Canada. They were scaring people. They were suggesting that the world as we knew it would come to an end if we approved the MAI.

However, the government unfortunately thought that the way to handle this was to hide it from the public. The result was that the government got exactly the opposite result it had hoped for. The government wanted the public to support it, I suppose, because at that time the trade minister spoke very much in favour of it, but of course when people do not have access to information, they tend to be afraid of an issue and concerned about it. Those irresponsible groups spread all kinds of disinformation that fed upon that fear. As a result, we received hundreds of letters from people saying they could not support the MAI because it would effectively give away Canada's sovereignty in all kinds of areas, which to my mind was complete nonsense.

Having said that, it does not diminish at all the concerns of a lot of people, because they simply did not have the information. What it ultimately took to bring this issue to the House was the Reform Party actually proposing a supply day motion on the subject of the MAI so that for the first time it was debated in the House of Commons. It took an opposition party to do it, and afterward the international trade minister said the government had debated it in the House of Commons so the government had been up front with people. However, it took a motion from the Reform Party to do it. This government does not have a very good history when it comes to ensuring that people know about these sort of things.

Perhaps even more important, I think it betrays a philosophy of the government. The philosophy of this government is to hide as much as it can from the public and to go about its business. We see this over and over again. The debate and vote the other night on the issue of the ethics watchdog is a perfect example of what I am talking about. The government does not like democracy because it undermines its power. It would much rather proceed about its business without the scrutiny of this place.

I urge all members here to remember that we are elected by the people to be their watchdogs as to what is going on. What happens when we do not have the chance to scrutinize these things in parliament, we lose our ability to be those watchdogs. We cannot do our job as representatives of the people if the big issues that profoundly affect people's lives, such as free trade agreements and other international treaties like the international criminal court and others, are not discussed in this place.

How do we get the information? How do we have the benefit of hearing the debate if these things are not discussed in this place? This place is supposed to be the home of democracy in Canada, the home of free speech, but the government does just about everything it can to avoid bringing these big issues here. That is unfortunate. I think it is an affront to free speech and democracy. It betrays an attitude that the government seems to work by that I think most people would find to be irresponsible. It would suggest that too many times that the government goes out of its way to purposely ignore the public.

There are many other example, one of which is the Kyoto accord. Just to remind people, Kyoto was an agreement, that many countries were prepared to enter into, which would restrict emissions that supposedly contribute to the greenhouse effect and cause a raising of temperatures around the word, that sort of thing.

Of course we never got a chance to discuss it in this place. In fact the government, to its credit, went and discussed it with the provinces. Then, when its members went to Kyoto, they turned around and effectively stabbed the provinces in the back and agreed to something completely different from what they told the provinces they were willing to do. They completely changed the agreement.

Here we are in a situation where the government ignored parliament completely. It never even suggested for a moment that this agreement would come back to this place for a vote. It also stabbed the provinces in the back and, in its inimitable way, managed to drive a wedge again between the federal and provincial governments and create some of that nastiness between the two that contributes to the unity problems that seem to be a perpetual state in Canada. We now see it rearing its head in the west again.

My point is that, contrary to the benefit of Canadians, the government has ignored this place when it comes to discussing these sort of treaties and agreements. The result is that people do not get the information they need, members of parliament are not allowed to do their jobs and, ultimately, I think the government enters into agreements that very often do not reflect the values and wishes of Canadians.

Let me give members a third example, the example of the international criminal court. The international criminal court is an agreement that Canada has signed on to that would really, to some degree, and I know this is in dispute, give up our sovereignty when it comes to our ability to set our own laws. Many people are concerned about multinational corporations which come and, they believe, erode our sovereignty.

What about the situation where Canada was prepared to sign away our ability to ensure that Canadian citizens were not protected under Canadian law, but in fact are now subject to a new international law?

This is especially important for a country like Canada which is often engaged in peacekeeping operations. What it effectively does is allow Canadian peacekeepers or, in cases of war, Canadian soldiers, to be subject to decisions by international courts that could completely strip away our ability to protect the people and have them tried by laws with which we agree, understand and which are a part of our tradition.

The concern, which has also been raised by other countries, is what would happen if we entered into another conflict like Kosovo where we had Canadian soldiers fighting in that conflict or pilots flying CF-18s who may have bombed, even by accident, a civilian site. We might lose our ability to protect them and ensure that they did not all of a sudden become subject to an accusation of a war crime. That is the sort of thing that I think Canadians would be interested in having debated and discussed in this place.

I will not get into the merits of the international criminal court. I will simply make the point that the issues are serious enough that they should be debated in the House of Commons.

What does it mean to be a democracy if issues that profoundly affect people's lives are not discussed in the forum where their elected representatives are supposed to discuss these things? When did we decide as a country that huge issues, like the ones I have just discussed, should be determined solely by a few people in the priorities and planning committee of cabinet on the government side?

That is not democracy. That is certainly not what the founders of our country envisioned when they set up the system that we have today. I think a lot of people who have no interest in international treaties will agree that this place no longer is the type of democratic forum that was envisioned 133 years ago. It is no longer the type of place that people have confidence in when it comes to ensuring that their views and values are reflected through their members of parliament.

There are a number of reasons for that but certainly one of them is that governments do not bring big decisions to this place. That should end. All the debate on the other side that we have heard so far has been a justification for the sorry position that we are in today. What they have said so far is completely without merit. No one can argue that the House of Commons should not be engaged in these sorts of serious issues.

Having tried my best to make a case that we need to be engaged in these things and that these things have to come here for a vote, let me now make the case for the importance of free trade, which is the other element in this whole discussion.

Coming up very quickly is the summit of the Americas meetings in Quebec City, which Canada will host and chair.

The Canadian Alliance supports in principle the concept of free trade. We believe very much that free trade does leave people better off.

However, there is even a more fundamental argument for supporting the idea of free trade. In this day and age, when we hear much heady talk about the need for the respect of universal human rights, we too often ignore a very basic human right: the right to own, use and sell property. It is a basic right. I would argue that it is almost impossible to practice the other rights that we typically think of, such as the right to free speech, for instance, without that other basic right, the right to own, use and sell property. Without that right there is no economic freedom.

I will give an example. If we have freedom of speech but the government owns all the printing presses or all the telephones and it is the one that decides who gets the printing presses and the telephones, then our right to free speech is severely limited. It is the same with many other freedoms: the right to labour and the right to move around the country as we see fit. Those are all completely abridged if we do not have that right to acquire and use property. Too often we forget about that.

I make the argument that from a philosophical standpoint free trade makes sense. It is a universal human right or the consequence of a universal human right, and that right is the right to own, use and enjoy property. Remember the call of the glorious revolution of 1688 and John Locke: the right to life, liberty and property. I believe in it fundamentally and I think we should recognize it and respect it around the world. I believe that is what is implied when we agree to free trade.

I will talk for a moment about the evidence that supports the contention that free trade basically leaves people better off.

I will not bore the House by going into the details of how the Liberals opposed NAFTA, how they said that they would make big changes when they were elected, and, of course, never did, but I will point out one of the concerns raised on the other side during the NAFTA discussions. The concern was that countries with cheaper labour costs would, on the one hand, undermine our ability to compete because they had cheap labour and, on the other hand, exploit us when it came to labour standards and the environment.

I think what members will find is that the record does not bear that out. As we look at Mexico today under NAFTA, it is becoming more and more prosperous. It has a larger middle class than Canada, believe it or not. One reason for that is the North American Free Trade Agreement, NAFTA, and the free exchange of goods and services, the efficiencies that it creates and the ability of people who have been desperately poor in the past to finally climb out of the trap of poverty created by barriers to trade. We have to start to remove those barriers. That is why free trade makes so much sense. We see more and more evidence of it all the time.

My friend from across the way pointed out that the UN said that we must start to liberalize trade around the world. The poorest countries in the world are the ones with the most trade barriers. If we look at Africa, which is so desperately poor and those people need our help, it has the highest barriers to trade. It is a country that rejects free markets. It rejects the fundamental freedom to use property and trade as one sees fit as long as the equal rights of others to do the same are not impeded.

The evidence is very clear that we have to start to lower the barriers. When we do we will all be better off. Initially, we see a situation where labour standards are very low and the environment is in trouble. However, what we find is that when countries get better off they put more and more money into those things and the environment improves, labour standards rise, people make more money and employers have an interest in ensuring that their people are safe because they do not want to pay workers' compensation. Those are all the things that we take for granted in Canada.

I argue that we need to have free trade because it makes sense. It helps people everywhere.

My final point is that Canada has to practise what it preaches. In Canada today we still have trade barriers that make it impossible for third world countries to trade into Canada. That is a huge hypocrisy. Tariffs are very high for instance on textiles, something that third world countries could produce. If we allowed that to happen we would be helping them far more than by just giving them aid like we so often do. We would give them the basis for an economy that would leave their people much better off. There are many examples of tariffs that are currently in place in Canada that impede the ability of these third world countries to trade into Canada but also for us to go and establish markets there and leave our people better off.

In conclusion, I would argue that this House needs to be the place where these things are discussed first and foremost. It would probably to some degree end this end run around democracy that we have now, where these unelected, unaccountable NGOs run to the government to have their voices heard. However, if they knew they could have their voices heard here they would do it.

Second, free trade is a good thing. It leaves people better off and it is the compassionate thing to do. For that reason, I urge the government to support this motion.

[Keith Martin, Canadian Alliance, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I congratulate my colleague, the critic for foreign affairs, for an eloquent speech on a number of issues. He brought up many pressing points and I hope the government was listening.

There are a couple of areas that I would like his advice on as the previous finance critic for the party. The first one concerns barriers to trade. I would like him to address the issue of Canada's foreign policy with respect to how we should be more aggressive at removing the barriers to trade with developing countries and that we should remove double taxation issues with respect to our country and developing countries. Double taxation is actually something that restricts the ability of companies to be more aggressive in terms of their dealings and bilateral trade between two nations.

The second issue is barriers to trade within Canada. We have more barriers to trade east-west than we have north-south. I am sure the public would find it absolutely appalling that it is more difficult for my province of British Columbia to trade with Quebec or Ontario than it is for us to trade with the United States.

Last, I ask the previous finance critic to comment on a question I posed to the government on the issue of how we can deal with short term capital flows which are so destabilizing to the international community. It is something we have been unable to deal with. There has been a proposal by the NDP to apply the Tobin tax to this issue. While it is an utterly imperfect solution to the problem, at least it is a move to bring this to the forefront. We absolutely have to deal with the way we deal with short term capital flows in this globalized market.

I wonder if my colleague would have any thoughts on how we can help to limit that so we allow capital flows to occur without making them a destabilizing factor in our growing globalized economy?

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, first, let me deal with the last issue he raised. I may have to disagree with him a little bit on this. He raised the issue of short term capital flows and suggested that they were very destabilizing, especially when they occurred I expect during the Asian economic crisis couple of years ago. That bears some discussion.

The first point I would make about that is really what those short term capital flows reflected was a fundamental problem in that country. It may have been in some cases a situation where banks were out on a limb when it came to holding the paper of, for instance, a lot of banks that simply could not be supported. At some point investors become very nervous and they see it as a disaster in the making and pull their capital out of that country.

One of the problems is that we know that some of these countries are willing to put barriers in place to stop that from happening. Very often investors will want to get their money out of there before those barriers are put in place to stop them from getting their money out. In some ways I would argue that the ability of countries to put these barriers up act as a catalyst and actually make the problem worse.

The second point I would make is that this is only a symptom of the real problem. The real problem is what needs to be addressed. The short term capital flows are the symptom. The real problem is poor financial management in these countries. Very often it is crony capitalism where government and private institutions or private companies become completely integrated and decisions are not made on the basis of market signals. They are made on the basis of decisions that involve concerns of the government. They have political concerns and they are not always interested in the interests of their people. Sometimes they make decisions that simply benefit their political interests.

I would argue that those are the first problems that need to be resolved. If those sorts of problems are resolved, the issue of short term capital flows will become I think less critical.

The final point I would make is if people are investors and they invest in that country, does it make sense that those people should have to have their investments locked into that country, knowing that the currency will probably devalue terribly and their investment may be completely wiped out. That is the other side of the coin. The situation the investors are in is that they could see their investments completely wiped out. Remember that we all now have the ability to invest in other countries through merging market funds and that kind of thing.

I want to make a second point with respect to barriers to trade. Canada is engaged in a gross hypocrisy right now. On the one hand, we say that we care and that is why we want to give all kinds of aid to other countries. It is necessary that we give that aid. I understand that. We believe in humanitarian and developmental aid.

However, we should not say that we care very much on the one hand by offering aid and on the other hand say that we are going to block the ability of these countries to develop their own economies by putting in place barriers that prohibit the export of textiles from whatever developing country it is into Canada. This is a perfect example because textiles are something that are easy for those developing countries to produce. However, we make it impossible for them to get on their feet by putting these barriers in place.

Why do we say on the one hand we care, but on the other hand make it impossible for them to sell into our market? That is hypocrisy and that kind of thing should end.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I know Mr. Speaker is new in the chair, but the tradition in the House, when people are rising on questions and comments from a party other than the person who has given the main speech, is to recognize members from other parties. If members from other parties do not stand, then it is fair ball to recognize members from the same party as the speaker. However, that is not the case in this instance.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

What happened a while ago was when I asked for questions or comments only two members from the Canadian Alliance stood up.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

I just stood now.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Yes, but that was before your intervention. Now that you stood up I should have recognized you instead of the other hon. member. However, now that the mistake has been made I still have to honour my word and give the floor to the member for Calgary East.