Debates of Feb. 15th, 2001

Supply

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis-Et-Chutes-De-La-Chaudière, QC]

Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate the hon. member for Québec on the quality of her speech and particularly on what she said about the impact the free trade agreement presently being negotiated by all countries in the three Americas will have on the cultural sector.

For me and for the other members from the Quebec City area, Lévis being situated just on the other side of the river from Quebec City, the fact that the summit will be held in Quebec City raises a number of concerns as far as security and the potential for demonstrations are concerned. I imagine that those concerns are raised in her riding more than anywhere else, since this is where the summit will be held. I would like her to tell us about it, if she wishes to do so.

Since she too is from the Quebec City area, I would like to take the opportunity to emphasize that the shipbuilding sector has been overlooked or excluded from the free trade agreement. This sector was also overlooked in the amendments that were made when Mexico joined in.

Residents of Quebec City and the north shore who work at the shipyard in Lévis are now wondering why this exception was made.

I understand that, during the last negotiations, for the auto pact, it was taken into consideration in order to protect the interests of southern Ontario, and of the United States.

Now we are taking things to the next level, the Americas. I know that several countries, Brazil and South America in particular, want to get ships and oil drilling rigs built by Canadian shipyards among others. So, that does have an impact.

I would like to know where the hon. member stands on this issue. As the member for Québec, is she prepared to support me so that shipbuilding and maritime transport are included in the future free trade agreement?

I also find unacceptable that Quebec City will be footing the bill if demonstrations are held during the summit of the Americas. As of today, we still do not know for sure if the premier of Quebec will take part in the summit of the Americas. As far as I know, and I could be wrong, he was only invited to a cocktail party. That is rather odd.

I would like to know what the hon. member for Québec thinks about all of this.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Madam Speaker, indeed, the summit of the Americas will be held in the riding of Québec.

We hope that the Government of Canada will respond to the financial expectations relating to the holding of the summit in order to allay the concerns of the Government of Quebec and the municipality of Québec.

We know that requests have been made for the funds necessary to ensure that all the infrastructure required to provide a proper welcome for the leaders of others countries is in place. We trust that there will be a follow up and that the requests for assistance from the Government of Quebec and the municipality of Québec will be met with a suitable response. At the present time, we do not know if there has been any follow up to the requests made by the two levels of government.

As for the other matter of the shipyard, this was an election issue in the riding of Lévis and the reason the hon. member for Lévis was re-elected.

We still await a proper shipbuilding development policy here in Canada. This would have a positive impact on Quebec, particularly Lévis. Any protection afforded the industry would have a positive impact on the economic development of Quebec and a regional ripple effect extending beyond Lévis, because a number of workers reside in the various ridings in the Quebec City area.

We can only regret the slowness with which the federal government is handling this matter. They claim to be very concerned about the economy, yet it is important to provide assistance and support to the economic levers and the various infrastructures already in place in order to be able to compete the global marketplace in the future.

The summit of the Americas is very important. It is important to know how much protection there will be for the social rights of our workers in a number of precarious sectors of economic activity in Canada and in Quebec.

[Elinor Caplan, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to participate in the debate. I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Toronto Centre—Rosedale.

The Americas is one of the most dynamic regions in the world. With its 800 million people, even though we are not but one-sixth of the world's population, we account for more than one-third of the world's total economic activity.

At about $11 trillion U.S., the combined gross domestic product of the Americas is greater than that of the European Union. No wonder then that leaders of the western hemisphere believed in the potential of the Americas. They knew that their countries could work together more effectively on every front, social, political and economic, to promote democracy, development and growth.

At the Miami summit of the Americas in 1994, leaders endorsed a declaration and a plan of action that expressed their common commitment to strengthening democracy and creating even greater prosperity. They also committed themselves to practical measures to improve health care, increase access to quality education, protect biodiversity, collective action against such scourges as drugs and corruption, and expanding and deepening dialogue with civil society on regional priorities.

At the second summit in Santiago in 1998, this co-operation was carried forward in detail. Once again leaders endorsed action to support the development of democratic institutions, protection of human rights, and enhanced transparency and respect for the rule of law. They gave specific instructions to begin the process of negotiating the free trade areas of the Americas.

Once it is completed, the FTAA will be the world's largest free trade area. In short, the summit of the Americas process offers numerous opportunities to further enhance Canada's openness to the world and to the western hemisphere in particular.

The FTAA is one of the tangible opportunities on the economic front, with its potential for enhanced market access for Canadian exports. If there is one sector where new access could lead to significant benefits for Canada and Canadian businesses, it is in the service sector.

The service sector is a key engine of Canada's economy. It is responsible for more than two-thirds of Canada's GDP, almost three-quarters of our employment with 10.5 million people and nearly 90% of new job creation in Canada. It is leading the transformation of the Canadian economy into a knowledge based economy.

Many employees in the service sector are highly educated and enjoy well above average earnings. Services are at the heart of Canada's innovation. For example, communications, financial services and technical business services are among the most innovative industries in Canada. We are a world leader.

As a trading nation Canada counts on its service exports to strengthen our prosperity. Not counting Canada's direct investment abroad in service companies, Canada is the 12th largest exporter of services in the world, exporting $51.8 billion in 1999 alone. Canadian companies like SNC-Lavallin, Teleglobe, Enbridge and Hydro Quebec are among world leaders in their field and their expertise is sought across the hemisphere.

Service exports only account for 12% of total Canadian exports. Canada's trade in services is increasing at a much faster pace than our trade in goods and shows tremendous potential. Given the importance of trade in our economy, we could say without fear of exaggeration that improving market access for our service providers abroad is vital to sustaining our prosperity.

The argument for supporting Canada's service exports is particularly eloquent when it comes to the Americas. Canada's commercial service exports to the FTAA countries, including the U.S. and Mexico, were worth about $1.9 billion in 1998, up from under $800 million in 1993, growing at an average annual rate of 19% during that period.

Countries such as Argentina, Chile, Costa Rica, Venezuela, Columbia and Brazil are all key existing or potential export markets for Canadian service providers.

I draw the attention of the House to three sectors in particular: telecommunications, financial services and engineering services, all of which are found in the greater Toronto area, some in my riding of Thornhill, and right across the country.

The Canadian telecommunications sector is enjoying tremendous success exporting services valued at over $2 billion each year and employing some 104,000 Canadians. As a consequence, since 1993 the sector has been growing at a rate of just over 9% per year.

Canadian exporters of telecommunication services still face market access and regulatory restrictions in many countries of the hemisphere, in part due to the presence of telecommunication monopolies in several Central and Latin American countries; the lack of transparency, predictability and timeliness in the process of awarding operating permits and licences; or prohibitive fees for licences and interconnection. This hurts our businesses. Reducing such barriers would significantly increase export opportunities for Canada's growing telecommunication companies.

In recent years Canada's financial institutions have been very active in Central and Latin America. We have a number of examples. Scotiabank is active in Argentina and Chile. In fact in Chile it is the seventh largest bank. In El Salvador, Scotiabank has 33 branches in that country alone, but it is also active in Brazil, Costa Rica, Belize, Guyana, Panama, Peru, Uruguay and Venezuela.

Another good example is the National Bank which recently teamed up with three U.S. venture capital companies and a local Chilean partner to form the CorpBanca consortium to purchase banking institutions in South American countries.

The same is true for our insurance sector. Our life and health insurance companies have identified Latin America as a growth market for the future.

Another sector where Canadian expertise is renowned is in the world of engineering and other related services. Canada is currently the third largest exporter of engineering services. The high calibre of Canadian engineers is internationally recognized.

Business opportunities are significant especially in Central and Latin America where the expertise of Canadian engineers in resource based and energy related as well as infrastructure projects is in high demand.

In this regard Hydro-Quebec's recent acquisition of Chile's Transelec, which owns 50% of the Chilean power transmission lines, is a good example of the type of business opportunities in the countries the western hemisphere have to offer.

That is why Canada is pursuing and actively participating in the service negotiations under the free trade area of the Americas. Canada has much to gain from the establishment of a comprehensive set of rules in trade and services under FTAA. Canada's general objective in the service negotiations is to seek improved market access for Canadian service providers under a transparent and predictable rules based regime.

In the elaboration of FTAA rules on services Canada will be guided by its existing rights and obligations under NAFTA, the Canada-Chile free trade agreement and the WTO general agreement on trade and services.

Contrary to what some critics have said, these objectives could be achieved without putting at risk those things which all Canadians value and cherish. As is now the case in other trade agreements, the FTAA services chapter will allow countries to file exceptions for those measures they wish to maintain irrespective of some of the FTAA obligations. In addition, and this is extremely important, nothing in these negotiations will jeopardize our public health and our public education systems. They are simply not negotiable.

I have shown in my remarks how world competitive Canadian telecommunications, financial services and engineering services are, and that is only to name three sectors. I could go on and on, but I do want to share my time.

In conclusion, the countries of the western hemisphere could prosper as they learn to work together and be good economic partners with Canada and with each other.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister made a very fine speech but she did not address the key message in the opposition day motion of the Bloc Quebecois which was demanding to see the actual text that is being negotiated on our behalf.

The crux of the matter is that negotiations are taking place behind closed doors. We have some assurances that certain things are not being negotiated but, frankly, we do not have a very good record to draw from in previous negotiations.

I will give one example. Most Canadians are reeling with shock and horror over spiralling home heating costs right now. When they go to their government and ask for some kind of relief, some kind of preferential pricing, the government tells them that it is sorry but it cannot do anything because it traded everything away in the last round of bargaining in the NAFTA agreement.

We traded away our economic sovereignty, which is what Canadians are afraid will happen again. What are we trading away this time? What is going on behind closed doors? Why can we not see the text of the document so that we could put people's minds at ease?

If in fact what the minister said is absolutely true, that Canada would never trade away certain things because we just would not do that, why did we willingly trade away our economic sovereignty in the area of energy pricing? There is a recent tangible experience that is still very bitter in the mouths of Canadians, especially now as they are opening their energy bills for their home heating oil.

Would the hon. minister explain the reluctance on her government's part to release the actual text of the negotiations so that the minds of Canadians can be put at ease.

[Elinor Caplan, Liberal, Thornhill, ON]

Madam Speaker, I would say to the member and to those to whom I have listened carefully that it is important to tell Canadians that they can access all of the information regarding Canada's position during these negotiations on the website. It is open, clear and there for all to see.

I do not think there has ever been a process that has been as open to encourage Canadians to participate and to be informed. The fearmongering and the rhetoric I have heard does a disservice to the important work that is being done to negotiate agreements that will benefit Canadian businesses and industries.

Anyone who has an interest can plug into the website, get the information and then let us know what they think about the position that the Government of Canada is taking. That is good government, that is openness, that is transparency and that is in the interests of all Canadians, particularly Canadians who want to prosper and have jobs for themselves, their children and future generations.

[Art Hanger, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Madam Speaker, I commend the minister for putting forward her position on the trade issues. I know she is very well-versed on those as well as on several other issues in the House. As Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, she has a fair amount of authority and has used her authority to appoint several judges in the country, which is how it should be.

I know she is also very capable of rooting out bigots, racists and extremists. She made it very clear in the last election that she has those capabilities. It is always a very touchy subject when other people mention that topic but the minister does not seem to hold back when it comes to those particular issues when she is directing them across the floor.

The minister made a recent appointment of Mr. Sekora who was quoted in the Vancouver Sun on December 13 as blaming his loss specifically on members of B.C.—

[Pat O'Brien, Liberal, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. It is with reluctance that I interject and interrupt my colleague, but as the parliamentary secretary charged with organizing the debate, or trying to make sure that we have a full debate at least on this side, I am straining to understand any relevance whatsoever of the member's comments to the motion that is on the floor.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

I think the Speaker has often shown a lot of latitude in terms of the type questions and comments that are made during questions and comments, but I ask the hon. member to get to the question because we have run out of time.

[Art Hanger, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Madam Speaker, I will get to the question right now. The issues are Mr. Sekora and the appointment process and what is deemed acceptable and not acceptable when accusations are hurled from the particular minister and in the way she makes her decisions.

Mr. Sekora said that his defeat was assured by 8,000 angry leaky condo owners in the riding and thousands more ethnic Asian voters who do not like to declare what they own and were upset over changes to foreign asset—

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Would the hon. member put the question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration.

[Art Hanger, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Madam Speaker, is this the kind of person, I ask the minister, that she wants in her cabinet or in her arrangement of citizenship judges?

[Elinor Caplan, Liberal, Thornhill, ON]

Madam Speaker, I tell viewers who are watching the debate on the hemispheric free trade agreement that the question asked bears no relation to the debate whatever. However, I should like to say that the former member to whom the member opposite refers served as a member of his community for 28 years as a city councillor, school trustee and mayor, and honourably in this House. With that kind of community service, he is exactly the kind of individual to whom we are looking to serve our community in other capacities as well.

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Toronto Centre—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Speaker, I am a little nervous to rise because I may find out I have made some appointment in my riding that the member opposite will choose to attack me on. I lack such power so I am sure I will be safe from any slings and arrows from the opposite side. I admit that I am culpable. I too have done things in life which I ought not to have done. There is no helping me, just like in the Anglican prayer book.

While we are passing to the subject matter of debate which I think members are interested in, I should like to address four issues we have been talking about in the House today.

The first is the consultation issue. The second is the merits of the FTAA. The third is one raised by the NDP regularly, which is the loss of sovereignty, and then I should like to talk about the merits of the particular motion.

On the consultation issue, we have heard a great deal this morning about the problems of consultation and the lack of it. Other members have addressed it, but I should like to speak to it from a different dimension. I should like to speak to it as someone who has sat on the foreign affairs committee and has been involved in international trade matters now for seven years of my parliamentary career. I frankly could say to the House, and I think most open-minded members would agree with me, that never before has there been a history of open consultation as much as there has been with the government on all these issues.

Let us cast our minds back to the time when the MAI was a hot debate. What did we do? The government asked the international trade committee of the House to examine it, to report back to the House and to discuss it before the negotiations.

On this issue we hear: we do not know what we are seeing; this is all opaque; it is a big secret; and nobody knows what is going on. What did we have in the WTO report that the committee worked on last year? We had discussions about FTAA. Witnesses came from all over the country and discussed it with us. Members of the House discussed it. The subcommittee prepared a report on the FTAA, discussed it with members of the opposition and heard the public. The public has been engaged in consultations with the department for several years.

As has been pointed out, the negotiating positions are on the website. People can exchange points of view. There will be a parallel summit. I suggest to members in all honesty that there has never been as open a process. Members opposite that they be given the text of the agreement. They know that is not possible. They are experienced people. They have all been in business. They have all been in labour negotiations. They are all intelligent people.

They know and the public of Canada knows that when we go into a negotiation with 30 other countries, the 30 other countries have something to say as well. If they say that the agreement should not be released, we cannot release it against the will of our trading partners.

The Canadian government has shown a willingness to share the text of the agreement, but other governments have said no. Until the agreement is final we are not in a position to do so. I am confident that once the agreement is final, it will be open in Canada and open for discussion and review by members and others in the normal way.

The consultation process domestically has been extraordinary. In addition, internationally the Government of Canada has been at the forefront of bringing together an interparliamentary forum of the Americas. I am proud to say that it will be sitting in this Chamber when we break in the month of March.

In this very room we will have representatives, not governmental representatives but parliamentarians from all across the Americas: South America, Central America and the Caribbean countries. They will be sitting in this room discussing the issues we are discussing today: Will free trade in the Americas contribute to our prosperity; how do we preserve our environment, how do we preserve the diversity of our culture?

I hope all members of the House and all parties will be participating in this important debate launched by the Government of Canada as a recognition that these issues touch deeply our social programs. The issues of free trade and economic integration touch us. They touch our daily lives and they touch the daily lives of other citizens throughout the Americas.

Do we wish to run away from them, as would be suggested by the NDP? Or, do we wish to embrace them in a positive way which will bring prosperity for all of the Americas, not just for ourselves but for everyone, and in a way which allows us to consult with everyone? That is what is happening in the area of consultation.

I urge members opposite who are interested in this issue to speak to their whips and get involved. They should find out about the interparliamentary forum which will sit here and participate in these discussions, not just with us but with democratically elected representatives from all of the Americas, all of whom share our preoccupations and our concerns about this agreement.

The minister's point is excellent. The agreement is bringing prosperity. If we did not have international trade, we would not have the city of Toronto of today. It is entirely dependent upon it. It is dependent upon it in the financial services sector, in the mining industry and in practically every area of economic life of the city I am very proud to represent in a riding I treasure.

Members know that 40% of our GDP is dependent on exports. Some 25% or 30% is dependent on imports. I can say to every one of my citizens, as I walk down the streets of my riding, that about 60 cents of every dollar in their pockets are somehow related to the trade in which the country is engaged. They know that.

We are trying to craft the best agreement we can. We are doing that and we are trying to bring in other foreign countries to enable them to share in our prosperity. I suggest that is a generous thing we ought to be doing.

We could focus on other issues. Our colleagues in the NDP, the Bloc and the Alliance are no different from the colleagues on our side of the House. We are all concerned about the environment, human rights, labour standards, diversity of culture, the distribution of wealth and equity.

That is what we do. We are politicians. We are in the business of trying to make sure that society is an harmonious operating system. That is what will be done at the level of the Americas. That is what this engagement is all about. It is an exciting, dynamic and wonderful opportunity. One of the great opportunities is the free trade area of the Americas.

As members will recall we did a study of the WTO, a great institution, in committee on it last year before going into the famous negotiations in Seattle and found that it is grappling with these problems on a global scale.

The FTAA allows us to grapple with these problems on the scale of the Americas. We will be able to deal with human rights, for example, with our colleagues in the Americas because the FTAA is only one part of the negotiations that will take place at the summit of the Americas.

The Prime Minister will not only be speaking to trade agreements with the other leaders of the Americas. He will be speaking to strengthening democracy and to good governance in all our countries. He will be speaking to issues of social justice and equity in our countries. He will be speaking to issues of human rights.

Let us not pretend that because the FTAA is there we do not have a framework for human rights in the Americas. In this hemisphere there are dozens of forums for discussing human rights. There is the OAS general assembly, the Inter-American Human Rights Commission, the inter-American court, and working groups on human rights. Canada is engaged in all of these groups. We actively participate in them. The FTAA will enable us to get a better handle on these groups and to work with our trading partners in the Americas to advance those causes. Why would we stand in its way if we believe in that?

This morning I had the opportunity to meet with a very interesting group called the sustainable cities initiative. This group of Canadians is bringing cities together with private industry to go to developing countries and work with them on environmental concerns in their cities.

Where are the contracts they are doing at the moment? They are in Salvador, Brazil; San José, Costa Rica; Cordoba, Argentina; and Valparaiso, Chile. Why? It is because these are countries of the Americas. They are logical places that small and medium size businesses can work with and link with, as we create a matrix throughout the Americas that deals with human rights, culture and economics on a mutually advantageous system. That is what this is all about. That is what the debate should be about, instead of what I hear from the NDP over and over again about our loss of sovereignty.

How have we lost our sovereignty? These agreements are entered into by freely elected democratic governments. The sovereign will of the Government of Canada, elected by the people of Canada, chooses to go into the agreement.

For example, would members of the NDP rip up the Kyoto agreement because we lost our sovereignty by entering into it? No. They like the Kyoto agreement. We must do that if it is something they are in favour of. Would they rip up the ILO? I have heard from Bob White and the NDP over and over again that the ILO is a wonderful and important institution. The ILO interferes with sovereignty. It tells states what do. It says that there must be certain labour standards and that they cannot do this or that.

Every country that enters into any international agreement loses some degree of its sovereignty, but it pools its sovereignty in an international way to benefit overall. That is what free trade of the Americas is about. That is what the summit of the Americas is about. That is why I think the resolution at this time is misinformed and ill-advised.

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Madam Speaker, I have had the pleasure of working with my hon. colleague on the foreign affairs committee when it studied the FTAA.

Most government speakers are stating the benefits of FTAA: what it will do for Canada and how it will proceed. I agree there are potential benefits out there. I do not agree with the position the NDP takes. We agree with the government that there are advantages to the FTAA, but the question is: Why cannot the agreement be debated in the House?

The government talks about its website with all the information regarding the negotiations. We are saying that when the agreement is finalized it should be brought to the House. The House should be allowed to debate it because we as elected representatives want the ability to speak to that agreement in the House. Statements should be made on that agreement and, as a matter of fact, on all international agreements.

Why is my colleague opposed to bringing that international agreement into the House for debate?

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Toronto Centre—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question because that is the part of my speech I did not actually get to.

I raised earlier with one of our colleagues in the Bloc that I respect the ongoing debate.

The way the system works in our country at this time is that the government negotiates and ratifies international agreements, and when they require implementation in the House, they are brought to the House for the legislation to be passed. At that time we have an opportunity to discuss it, as we did with the WTO and with all other international agreements.

What is being asked here is that before ratification the government should involve the House or have a debate in the House. This suggests, if I may, with all humility and respect for the opposition member's position, that we are, as the U.S. congress is, directing the government as to how to conduct international affairs, which does represent a substantial change in our practice today.

It is a change that is happening. As I said, in the case of the MAI we had a committee that examined the MAI before it had even been negotiated. There are opportunities for the members to be engaged. I do not think that this resolution is necessary to do that.

The debate will go on. It will be in our committees. We will have an opportunity to discuss this on all sides of the House. When the time comes and the agreement has been put in place, the government will bring it forward to the House with the necessary implementing legislation and we will then have an opportunity to deal with it. That is my position and has always been the position of the government. I think the way in which we have done it in the House is the way in which it is in the best interests of the Canadian public.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Madam Speaker, I wish to tell the hon. member that the MAI was referred to the foreign affairs commission long after the texts were released on the Internet by a group of American citizens, thus creating an uproar, particularly among western countries, but also worldwide.

It is because of actions taken by civil society that we were able to have that debate here. What would the hon. member think of a union that would not ask its members to ratify the collective agreement negotiated for them? Would he not say that this sort of thing would not fly?

In our motion, we are simply asking that a basic principle of democracy be respected. I am taking this opportunity to ask the hon. member to clarify a statement made by the Prime Minister of Canada to the General Assembly of the Organization of American States on February 5:

By the same token, we understand that it cannot be about trade alone. It is not just a contract among corporations and governments. First and foremost, it is an agreement among—and about—people. It must be holistic in nature. It must include—

I want to stress the word “include”.

—improving the efficiency of financial markets, protecting labour rights and the environment, and having better development cooperation.

Based on that statement from the Prime Minister of Canada, am I to understand that the Canadian government supports an agreement on the free trade zone of the Americas that would include provisions to protect workers and the environment in particular?

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Toronto Centre—Rosedale, ON]

Madam Speaker, if I understood them correctly, these are two excellent questions.

I agree with the member that the text of the MAI was made public, which is why the civil society got involved. But the civil society is also involved in the debate on free trade in the Americas without having seen the texts beforehand.

The problem with the MAI is that the text that was made public was not the official text. It was a series of proposals put forward by a number of governments. It is always the same problem with this kind of negotiations. There is always someone who says “Here is the text”, but it is not the real text. It is only a proposal brought forward by a government. It is better to see the text before we get involved. That is my answer to the first question.

To answer the second question, I think we should address the issues of the environment, human rights and the protection of workers as part of our negotiations with all the Americas. These issues are not addressed only in the free trade agreement, but in all our negotiations with the Americas.

This is why the summit of the Americas is so important. It deals not only with international trade, but also with integration and the welfare of all the citizens of our hemisphere.

[Richard Marceau, Bloc, Charlesbourg—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Madam Speaker, the debate launched today by my hon. colleague from Joliette is crucial to the future of the people of Quebec and the people of Canada as well as all the inhabitants of the western hemisphere, the three Americas.

When everything we look at, read, listen to, eat and perhaps what will matter for us tomorrow is determined around international tables, it is fairly easy to understand why Quebec must become a sovereign state. Without sovereignty, Quebec will never, under the present system, have a place at these international tables, and that is regrettable.

Until we have sovereignty—which will come, I am positive—the Bloc Quebecois has taken a fairly clear and innovative position, which I will reveal now.

We think the provinces have to be directly involved in the negotiations at the summit of the Americas in Quebec City, because the issues to be discussed there—including cultural diversity—are too important, too fundamental, to the very existence of the people of Quebec to be simply left in the hands of the federal government alone.

Unfortunately, and this is somewhat predictable given the closed minds of our colleagues opposite, the government is obstinately refusing to give what, to a growing number of Canadians and Quebecers, is perfectly natural.

We have to find an original way to involve the provinces in the negotiations, which, in many cases, will be on issues that are fundamentally and exclusively provincial matters according to the Constitution of Canada.

For many years now, the premiers have been unanimous in their demand to be included in the negotiation of international treaties concerning their spheres of jurisdiction.

We suggest the following. The team of Canadian negotiators, who will be in attendance at the summit of the Americas, should naturally report to the Minister for International Trade, but also to the provincial ministers for international trade, in the case of the provinces that have such a minister, so that they can keep an eye on the negotiators.

So, a joint federal-provincial committee could be set up to ensure that the negotiators respected the priorities set not only by the federal government, but by the provincial governments as well. To me, it seems inconceivable that federal negotiators, who answer to the federal Minister for International Trade only, could make commitments on behalf of Canada as a whole, including its territorial divisions, in areas over which this House has no jurisdiction.

Our first suggestion is that we establish a federal-provincial committee responsible for supervising the work of federal negotiators. The second is that we should allow those provinces that are interested to appoint a member of the negotiating team so they can be directly involved in these negotiations which, I repeat, are crucial.

Once an agreement is reached, it will be important to get the approval of this House, to obtain our approval as elected representatives of the people. Not only will this parliament, this House, have to be involved in the ratification process, but so will the various provincial legislative assemblies.

It would be absolutely essential to ensure that agreements are tabled and debated in parliament and approved by resolution before ratification of the treaty by Canada.

If I may, I would like to go back to the issue of approval by the provinces and perhaps look at what is being done elsewhere. In the few minutes we have left, I suggest we look at the model so often mentioned by the Minister for International Trade, namely the European model.

His colleague, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, is also trying to talk about Europe. So we will. If that is what they want to talk about, fine.

In Europe, the economic commission for Europe, which negotiates for the 15 member countries of the European union, must obtain a clearly defined mandate from those countries before undertaking any negotiations.

Before actual negotiations begin, there is a debate. There must be agreement on the mandate that will be given to the economic commission for Europe in negotiating trade agreements. Once negotiators have arrived at an agreement, the commission must go back to the principals, the member countries of the European economic union. The member countries must decide whether or not to approve that agreement.

I therefore make the following suggestion: could we not consider the team of Canadian negotiators to be agents not just of the federal government but of the governments of the 10 other provinces, and have a system in which the provinces, which are the principals, as well as the provincial legislatures and the federal parliament ratify the results obtained by their agents, in this case the team of Canadian trade negotiators?

This direct involvement of the provinces is vital because it will facilitate the implementation of agreements which, I remind the House, will impact on a number of areas of exclusively provincial jurisdiction. The provinces, which will have been full participants in the process from the outset, will more easily be able to join forces and ensure that the ratification process goes ahead even more quickly.

One of the most frequently heard criticisms of globalization concerns the lack, too often expressed, of control by members of the public over a phenomenon which is increasingly having an impact on us. When a youngster clicks on a mouse and surfs on the Internet, when a retired man checks the return on his retirement funds, when a farmer milks his cows and plans the sale of his products on the international markets, we can say that they are all affected by globalization. This is not just pure imagination. There are very down to earth applications.

With the procedures I have mentioned, we would not only avoid the discussion of trade agreements behind closed doors by heads of state and heads of government or their ministers, but we would also involve the main representatives of the civil society, and I am referring to the members of the House of Commons and of the various provincial legislatures in Canada.

I will conclude. Through the creation of a committee to supervise the Canadian negotiators, the involvement of interested provinces in the appointment of Canadian negotiators, the approval of these agreements by the Canadian parliament and legislatures, and a close involvement of the states through parliament and the various legislatures, we will succeed not only in restoring public confidence in the politicians, but also in making sure the Canadian constitution and provincial jurisdictions are respected.

This is the best procedure possible, short of Quebec becoming a sovereign state. When that day comes, Quebec's interests will be really well protected by our representatives in these negotiations where decisions are made that affect us in our daily life.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Madam Speaker, I agree with many of the remarks made by my hon. colleague from the Bloc Quebecois. I know he comes from a legal background and has been involved with many rounds of bargaining and negotiations.

I think this is what he and I share. We both find it quite galling that the players at the table of the FTAA do not want freely elected governments involved at this stage. They clearly will not allow it. They are barring it. In fact it goes further than that. The former head of the WTO, Ruggiero, made this startling comment. He said “There is a surplus of democracy in the world which is interfering with the free movement of capital and investment”.

There are people out there in the world who actually believe there is a surplus of democracy, and that freely elected governments and freely elected representatives like those of us in this room have no business at a high level table where they are bargaining trade deals. That is offensive to all Canadians. Surely, all people in Quebec and everywhere in the country should be offended by that.

I would like the hon. member to talk a bit about this. We are facing a home heating fuel crisis in this country as we speak. When Canadians came to their government to ask for some relief and begging their elected representatives to do something to provide some relief for them, they were told “Gee, sorry we cannot help you”. We traded away any ability to influence pricing in the last trade agreement with NAFTA. Some idiot on our behalf gave it away, sold the farm and sold away our economic sovereignty and our ability to dictate a domestic market pricing for home heating fuel.

I ask the hon. member to expand on the impact that that may have in the province of Quebec and elsewhere.

[Richard Marceau, Bloc, Charlesbourg—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Madam Speaker, first I wish to thank my colleague, the member for Winnipeg, for his question.

I am one of those who believe that states, governments, elected houses of representatives still have an important role to play in terms of globalization, provided they are willing to do so.

I believe that the best system of checks and balances against uncontrolled globalization is more democracy, more power, not only for civil society in general but also for assemblies elected by the population.

With regard to the more specific issue of heating oil, I believe that the error was made by this government, which decided to improvise, because an election was coming. In order to avoid any discussion of the issue during the election campaign, it decided to sign cheques for almost everyone, haphazardly, in order to keep things calm and to be able to say, after the election, that it had done what had to be done.

The problem does not stem from NAFTA or from the Free Trade Agreement, but from this government's lack of determination to deal with the problems of concentration and lack of competition in the oil industry.

Instead of acting, the government decided to let the Conference Board of Canada review the situation, knowing very well that large oil companies are major contributors to the conference board. This was the same as asking the industry to self-regulate. In any industry that self-regulates, there is a risk of monopolistic or anti-competitive practices.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North Centre, MB]

Madam Speaker, I have a question for the member of the Bloc Quebecois with regard to the protection of our public health care system.

Many organizations, including The Council of Canadians, have made preliminary investigations based on material available and have concluded that the trade negotiations committee of the FTAA, led by Canada, is proposing an expanded services agreement in this hemispheric pact.

The concern has been raised that these powers being proposed under this agreement, in conjunction with discussions at the WTO pursuant to GATS, will give unequalled new rights to the transnational corporations of the hemisphere to compete for and even challenge every publicly funded service of its government, including health care, education, social security, culture and environmental protection.

I think that is a legitimate concern. I would like to hear the position of the Bloc on that matter.

[Richard Marceau, Bloc, Charlesbourg—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I will be brief, Madam Speaker. First, I would like to know the sources used by the Council of Canadians, because I have not seen the texts. This is one of the reasons we brought forward this motion today. We have asked the government on several occasions if we could have access not only to Canada's initial negotiating position, but also to the working texts of the nine sectoral groups on which the free trade area of the Americas will be built.

I agree with the member on the importance of having this information right now. I hope, Madam Speaker, that you will tell that to your caucus and to your colleague, the Minister for International Trade. We need your support.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to take part in this debate initiated by my eminent colleague, the hon. member for Joliette, whom I have known for years.

I have had the opportunity to work with him in the past on the progress of trade negotiations, including the GATT, which has now become the World Trade Organization.

In the first part of my presentation, I want to briefly discuss the issue of trust. I am stating the obvious when I say that nowadays, whenever an international meeting takes place, whether in Seattle, Geneva or elsewhere—and Quebec City will be no exception—incredibly huge rallies are held. One has to wonder about these large protests.

There have always been protests, but they used to be smaller and less frequent than they have been in the past three or four years. Why are so many people now marching in the streets? We have to realize that these people are not all anarchists. Some groups represent the poor in our society, while others take an interest in issues such as education and health. Protesters come from various backgrounds, but most are ordinary citizens who are concerned about what is being negotiated behind closed doors, on their behalf, but in their absence and without any warning to them about what is coming.

One also has to wonder about the voter participation rate. People, and these people are probably the same ones who wonder about international negotiations, cannot see why they should bother to vote for a representative who ought to be speaking on their behalf, discussing fundamental issues affecting their future and informing them of the outcome of these debates, but who, because of the lack of transparency of the negotiation process at the international, bilateral, trilateral or multilateral level with 38 countries in the case of the Americas, does not inform them of what is being discussed, even though it concerns their future and issues as important as education, health, the environment and so on.

These people do not have anyone speaking on their behalf, even if they vote for a representative in a democratic fashion. Civil society does not have a direct spokesperson on whom it can rely.

[The Speaker]

The hon. member will have at least seven minutes left after oral question period, when we resume debate.

Rural Programs And Services Fair

[David Price, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am proud to announce that on February 16 and 17, that is tomorrow and Saturday, in East Angus in the beautiful riding of Compton—Stanstead, the federal government will be holding its first rural programs and services fair.

This project is a new initiative based on the concept of showing the role federal government institutions play in people's day to day lives and improving communications between the public and the government.

The project dovetails perfectly with a number of government initiatives such as the Canadian Rural Partnership, Service Canada and the Canada Information Office.

As well, by providing the population with the skills for electronic access to the various departments, the event will make a truly concrete contribution to promoting the initiative of a connected Canada.

Once again we see the government not only talking but taking real action in rural Canada.