Debates of Feb. 20th, 2001

Supply

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I do protest. This is a debate in the House on an issue that the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle has told us he thinks is important. Reading a list into the record is not part of the debate nor relevant to what we are discussing. I would suggest that he should go on with his question.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

This is not really a point of order, but I would ask the hon. member for Regina—Qu'Appelle to come to the point, please.

[Lorne Nystrom, NDP, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Mr. Speaker, this period of time is for either questions or comments. I said I had a comment. This demonstrates the need in our country when there are 100 countries in the world that have an element of PR in their lower houses or in their house if they are a unicameral system. Other countries, like Australia, have it in the other house, the senate, where all the members are chosen by PR.

This is extremely relevant in terms of looking at what we want and perhaps learning a little bit from other countries around the world. We may not have all the solutions in Canada. Perhaps the Germans, the Scandinavians or others have some answers to the questions we are looking at.

Would the member for Saint John like to comment on the fact that so many other countries have at least an element of PR?

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I agree that there are other countries with PR. When I was mayor, I was asked to go to Germany to look at unification. I met with many of the representatives of the German government while I was there. I have also had the opportunity to do that in St. Petersburg, Russia and in other countries.

There are different forms of government. When I sit here and see how torn are some of my colleagues on the government side, for whom I have great respect, I realize the system in place now must change. It is time to have an all-party committee where we sit down and work it out all together.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am someone on the government side who has voted against the government on major legislation at least four times and countless times on private members' legislation. I do not feel torn. I feel that I am still a valued member of this side. The reality is that we always, as MPs, have the option of voting as we think it is necessary, not just for our constituents but for the issues as we understand them.

I have not noticed many instances where her party members have actually voted against their party's position on any major legislation. I would ask the member for Saint John to comment on that. Does she apply free votes only on the government side or would she see them on her side as well?

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased the hon. member has raised this point. In 1993 when I was elected and Jean Charest was the leader of our party, he told me that he wanted me to stay. I told him that I would stay but I told him never to tell me how to vote, and he never ever did.

Since then on this side of the House we have had the freedom to vote on all the moral and major issues. When the Liberal member said he voted against his government and that he is still sitting there, I wonder whatever happened to poor old Nunziata after he stood up and voted against the government. They told him to go over there and sit in the corner somewhere, but he could not vote again with the Liberals. He was gone. We have a lot of free votes and we will continue to have them because we—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The hon. member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to take part in the debate on what is a very important issue and again to echo the comments of the ever loquacious and relevant member for Saint John, New Brunswick. She has pointed out that the NDP has brought forward a motion that is very much relevant and very much on the minds of many Canadians.

I have listened with interest to the comments of the government House leader that this was not something he encountered during the past campaign. He did not feel that the majority of Canadians were bursting with enthusiasm for any sort of parliamentary reform.

However, the outcome of the election is what highlights the importance of this issue. As we saw in previous elections, for example in 1997, we had a majority government elected by 38% of the Canadian electorate, which resulted in a disproportionate majority government.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

You wouldn't say that if it was a Conservative government, would you?

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, when in opposition the member opposite like most Liberal members used to rail against the government and the need for proportional representation. We have seen this kind of pliable stance taken time and time again by not only that member but the government House leader saying that things had to be changed and that a new system has to be brought about.

Now they sit pretty. They sit in an opportunity before Canadians with the chance to bring about real parliamentary reform. Will it happen? Absolutely not. Will they give lip service to it? Will they talk about ways to modernize parliament? Yes, they will.

They will talk to Canadians endlessly about the pressing need for electronic voting and try to pass it off as electoral reform. It is absolute nonsense. It would allow government members to stay away from the Chamber and it would allow voices of the opposition to be further muted.

We have seen an unprecedented period in the last seven to eight years of Liberal administration where the government has done everything in its power to mute the opposition. It has done everything to essentially take away methods by which the opposition could raise relevant issues, important objections to whether it be government legislation, policy direction or legitimate issues the opposition has heard from its constituents. We have seen systematic efforts to emasculate the opposition in that regard.

I would characterize the motion that is before the House in a very non-partisan way. It is to be commended for recommending a special all party committee to examine the merits of various methods of proportional representation. It also does not limit the debate to just proportional representation. It is a broad, all encompassing, all inclusive motion that calls upon all members of the Chamber to take part in the debate, to flesh out the matter and to give it some substance. We know that is the last thing the government wants to do and the last thing we will see. The simple reason for that—and the member opposite may holler his righteous indignation—is that it is not in the government's interests to change a system that rewards it. There is no appetite to bring about a change that will undermine the current government's ability to be elected.

As was demonstrated in the past, by low voter turnout and the proportionately low electoral support, there is no interest in changing the system that might eke away or somehow result in the government not being re-elected. That is not in the interests of the current government.

The temptation in the debate will be to focus on proportional representation but I do not believe that is the intention or the fashion in which the motion is before us. It mentions proportional representation but it leaves the door open to look at other methods of electoral reform.

Going outside the traditional party parliament system is a way in which this place can gain greater relevance in the hearts and minds of Canadians. Empowering individual members of parliament is also a very important part of the debate.

The faith that Canadians have in their representatives is at the very root of this issue and is at the very heart of what should be accomplished throughout the debate and throughout future debates if this motion were to pass in a committee.

It is important that Canadians understand the significance of committees. Committees go on sometimes out of the glare of the media. They are without the partisan tone that we all tend to fall into in the Chamber. Committees are where legitimate work can be done, the heavy slogging, and where the opportunity exists to hear from impartial stakeholders in matters such as this.

Committee work is crucial to the inner workings and the success of parliament. On the one hand it is unfortunate that the public does not have access to all of that work, but it is important that it is done in a forum where real ideas can be discussed without the sometimes poison partisanship that ekes into the public debate.

It has been mentioned as well that much of the power that is lost by members of parliament has been consumed by lobby groups or interest groups that take a particular position on any given issue. That is fine. That is a natural system that has evolved as well.

However, lobby groups that have access or trade on access to government becomes a little more troubling. When power is increasingly concentrated, as we have seen under the Liberal government, in the PMO and those who surround the Prime Minister, either by favour or appointment, this is where it becomes undemocratic. It becomes most troubling when people trade on access and when people can bring about and effect decisions because of a personal or past connection, whether it be former cabinet ministers or otherwise. This is where democracy starts to come undone. The erosion and the rot sets in when individual members are not feeling empowered to the extent that they feel they have legitimate input into our system.

Time and time again in the House of Commons, the practice of this government has been to make public announcements, important shifts in policy, important public pronouncements in the press gallery across Wellington Street as opposed to standing here before Canadians and displaying respect for not only their own colleagues but for opposition members who carry the same burden, and I do not say burden in the negative sense, but carry the same responsibility of being elected by Canadians. Those announcements are not made here. They are most often made across the way in front of the press or they are leaked. The trial balloons are sent out prior to the announcements actually being made public. That practice has to stop.

I come back to the issue of committees. There was a recent opportunity to empower and put greater faith in committees by giving them the opportunity to elect chairmen, but again this would not be consistent with the PMO's reign of power, with the hold on those committees to control the agenda and to control the membership. If one is representing the PMO, one does not want to have a rogue chairman who might somehow be out of step or out of line with the PMO's thinking on any given issue. The government completely passed up this opportunity, displaying once again my point that this talk of parliamentary reform, this lip service that we hear from the government, is really just that. There is really no genuine intent to reform this place, because it would undermine, undercut and erode the ever increasing concentration of power that we have seen in the Prime Minister's office.

Do not take my word for it. Do not take any member of parliament's word for it. History will bear this out. Professors of politics have repeatedly suggested that this is the case in the country. It is well documented.

I know my time is brief. I want to again suggest that we have an opportunity here to take part in a very meaningful debate to discuss ideas about parliamentary reform and electoral reform. I very much associate those two because it lends greater legitimacy to parliament if we have a system in place in which Canadians have faith.

The member for Regina—Qu'Appelle has listed at length the number of countries—100 plus—around the world that have embraced a system of proportional representation or a derivation thereof. This is an opportunity for Canadians to learn more about what sometimes is seen as an overly complicated system but is not. There are systems that working very effectively in places like Australia and Ireland and in places that have a history of democracy much longer than our own.

I appreciate the opportunity to partake in the debate, although I do not appreciate the endless hyena heckling that is coming from across the way. This debate once again demonstrates that we in this place have an opportunity to say what we have to say on an important subject such as this.

[Roy H. Bailey, Canadian Alliance, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I have listened to the debate with great interest. I have studied this from time to time, maybe not as much as the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle, but I have been very interested in it.

I would like to ask the member a question. You mentioned the fact that the Liberals formed a government with 38% of the vote. That too was a regionalized vote. How would proportional representation affect or change the position that I find my constituents in, where we have two government members elected from the province and some 16 or 14 more from across the west? If we had proportional representation, you still would not find a member of the ruling party standing on his or her feet and speaking out for the constituents who are going downhill very quickly. Proportional representation might change the composition, but in a country as wide as Canada I still think we would fail to get regional issues addressed by the House.

At present Saskatchewan has two Liberal members. Never once, going into my second term, have I seen anyone on that side of the House standing up in support of true agricultural reform that would benefit the people in western Canada. Look at what happened in the November election. Could the hon. member tell us how proportional representation would benefit my constituents and put them at ease that their voice was going to be heard by the government?

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Before I give the floor to my colleague, I would like to remind members to address their comments and questions to the Chair, please.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, to respond directly to the question, I think there are two issues that the hon. member for Souris—Moose Mountain has pointed out. There is the issue of whether there would there be more opposition, as opposed to whether the members elected under the current system in government would have a greater say or a greater ability to speak out for regional issues.

I think it is fair to say that there will always be regional issues that arise. I am very proud of the province that I come from and of that region in northern Nova Scotia of Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough and all that it has accomplished and will accomplish. I bring those issues forward on behalf of my constituents, as does the hon. member.

There are two separate issues here. One is the issue of having a voice in government, and the effective individual ability to raise regional issues or issues of importance also on a national scale is something different. The dynamic that exists within the current government does not speak to that. It does not encourage that. It does not embrace individuality.

The other issue about how it would result in a change in the current dynamic or the current makeup of the House is that under proportional representation, for one thing, we would not have a majority government. Second, I would suggest that there would be greater representation under that system in terms of it really expressing the will of the people. For example, if we had not a first past the post system but a system of runoff, we would not have these types of anomalies whereby members of parliament are elected with such a low proportion of the vote. I think that is how the dynamic might differ if we had a system such as that.

I thank the hon. member for his question. I know that he is engaged and interested in this issue as well.

[Ghislain Lebel, Bloc, Chambly, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is always very interesting when new ideas such as these are advanced. The danger, however, comes when they are taken to extremes. A politically correct attitude can go too far.

I worked in a party that talked about proportional representation. One thing led to another and suddenly all sorts of minorities—visible and invisible minorities, women, sexual dissidents—wanted to be represented in parliament. The result would be that one person could have four votes: one by virtue of his citizenship and three more by virtue of his other attributes. Is this not a danger?

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I think the issue is not to rush towards judgment in changing our system. No one is advocating that. Even the mover of the motion has suggested that we go about this in a very pragmatic and practical way, which is to have an all party committee look at different forms of potential proportional representation or other changes to the electoral system.

I agree that minority rights are always important. That is very much a part of this debate. I am encouraged by the level of interest of those who have taken part in the debate today.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough is encouraged by the level of debate because to some extent, although I was encouraged by the level of debate coming forward from the Progressive Conservatives on the issue, I have not been encouraged by the level of debate coming forward from some quarters of the House. I think the attitude of the Liberal members on this has generally been far too defensive and not open and exploratory enough as to how we might address some agreed upon problems in our electoral system.

For the record, Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the hon. member from Winnipeg North Centre.

I am disappointed in the defensiveness of the Liberals on the motion. We made this a non-votable motion for a reason. We thought that we might create an opportunity for non-partisan debate in this place. There are legitimate arguments to be made in favour of incorporating some element of proportional representation and there are legitimate criticisms of proportional representation as it has been implemented in many countries.

It would have been nice to have had that kind of debate. We were trying to transcend the sort of cheap shot culture that sometimes develops in the House. Some members who I sometimes associate with a higher level of debate have disappointed me today by being so ready to partisanize the debate.

In any event, I want to pick up on the point made by the member for Souris—Moose Mountain. He was a member who did try to engage the topic and I thought he asked a good question of the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. He said that even if there were more members from the west on the government side, he had no confidence that they would be saying what he wanted them to say.

However, that is to miss the point. It is to miss the point that regions have diverse points of view. What the problem is in our current system the way it has developed is that it creates the impression that regions only have one point of view: that there is only one point of view from Alberta, the Alliance point of view; that there is only one point of view from Ontario, the Liberal point of view; that in the last two parliaments there has been only one point of view from Quebec, the Bloc point of view. The list goes on and on of times in which it seems, if we look at parliament, that there is only one point of view from a particular region.

I say to the hon. member from Moose Mountain that his question is a good example of the problem. He assumes that there is only one point of view from the west. Indeed, I think that is a characteristic of his party, which I sometimes find offensive, that is, the fact that it sometimes pretends to speak for all of the west in the way that western Progressive Conservatives once did. Even when there were three NDP governments and NDP members of parliament galore in western Canada, there was still this pretension, particularly on the part of right wing western Canadians, that somehow they spoke for the west. They speak for one point of view in the west, but they do not speak for all westerners.

What we want to see is a parliament in which that diversity of views that exists within regions, not between regions, is reflected here in the House of Commons, not just for the sake of accuracy, but because we believe that would lead to a parliament and a political culture that would be less divisive, that would tend more toward national unity, that would create fewer opportunities and less temptation for political parties to exploit regional perceptions, regional hostilities and regional grievances, both real and perceived, in order to obtain electoral success, electoral success in a particular region but often at the expense of a more national political success.

At a time when we are talking about national unity in Canada, as we always are, I suppose we could say, at a time when western alienation is in the headlines and of course at a time when Quebec separatism is still in the headlines, it would be very important for us to at least consider—and this is all the motion asks parliament to do—setting up a process by which we could consider ways in which we might, through electoral reform, alleviate the problem that I have just identified. We would then stop having, as I tried to say earlier in a question and comment opportunity, an electoral system which throws up, no pun intended, these homogeneous regional identities that mislead Canadians and lead Canadians into a way of looking at political parties and the political culture in their regions that denies the heterogeneous as opposed to the homogeneous nature of their regions when it comes to politics.

If only, and I say this partly facetiously, all provinces could be like some provinces that tend to have a diverse political culture and elect members from all political parties. I am thinking of my home province of Manitoba as a province that does so more consistently than others. There are other provinces like Nova Scotia which will do that, although sometimes a certain party gets blanked out there as the Liberals did in 1997.

My point is this, without wanting to get into the sort of parliamentary and political trivia of who got elected where and when, we have a serious problem in Canada in terms of the regionalization of our politics and the regionalization of our parliament.

What the motion is asking the House to do could be done if there was consensus, but obviously there is not. We were wise on two counts. We rightly predicted that if we moved a votable motion it would lose because the government has demonstrated no interest in this project. We wanted to make it non-votable at this point because if there was a consensus we could move by consensus or by unanimous consent. We wanted to make the point that we should be having this debate in a non-partisan context with the best interests of the country in mind, rather than the best interests of the Liberal Party in mind.

I do not make any apologies for being partisan. I have seen the smiles on the faces of the Liberal members. They are basically saying what the Prime Minister said to me last year when I asked him a question based on this very same idea. I asked him whether or not he would consider agreeing to an all party committee that would look at proportional representation. He said “the NDP always lose, no wonder they want a different system”.

Yes, we always lose, that is fair enough, and the Liberals always win, or so they think they do, and most often they do. It is a very successful political party. Surely there is a responsibility on the part of a political party with so much responsibility to ask itself just every once in a while, or on a day like today on a non-votable motion, whether or not there is not something that might be in the interests of the country which is not in the short term interest, or for that matter the long term interest, of the Liberal Party.

If the Liberals are interested in the whole question of majority and minority government, which is another thing talked about, I do not take it for granted that whatever system we might come up with will always produce minority governments. Some studies have been done that showed how one could have an element of proportional representation but would also still ensure majorities, except that those majorities would be more representative. Canadians would know that the people who were in that majority caucus were from right across the country and not exclusively from one particular region.

If the majority-minority hang up is the Liberal hang up, take that hang up into the all party committee meeting and look at models that might be designed to address that concern, rather than dismissing out of hand the idea that this would be a good thing to do.

I am very disappointed in the government's response today and in the response of some members. However, all in all it has been partly the kind of debate that we had hoped to achieve.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague who is a long time veteran of the House of Commons. He has been pushing reforms like this in a very even handed manner. He is not saying that it will benefit strictly our party or diminish another party. He is basically saying is we need this debate for all Canadians.

My question for him would be how do we translate the debate today into the average Canadians' lives to make it relevant so that they can push their members of parliament to have this debate in the future?

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, one thing that would be nice is if this particular debate was being covered more thoroughly by the media. Maybe it is being covered remotely, anonymously.

Sometimes we are criticized in this place because all we do is engage in scandal mongering and partisan activity. When a political party brings forward a motion that tries to elicit an intelligent, constructive debate on a topic which elsewhere in the country is being discussed in an intelligent, non-partisan way and to the extent that we have, but not totally, I would hope this would be the kind of thing that would be covered.

This is a concern that goes right across the political spectrum. I say this particularly to the member for North Vancouver who spoke on behalf of the Alliance Party. I am told he was not at his best in contributing to the debate.

This is the kind of issue that brings together a Judy Rebick on the left and a Walter Robinson on the right, the National Citizens Coalition. I guess where it does not have any resonance, or so it would seem today, is in the so-called centre, the Liberals. I say so-called centre because the Liberals really are as right wing a party as we would ever want to find on most issues. They see themselves as exercising the modern equivalent of the divine right of kings to govern. It is that sense that comes from the Liberals that somehow they have this divine right. It is such an illegitimate divine right. It is a divine right that comes from very seldom obtaining a majority of the votes in any given federal election.

In answer to the question, we need to get out there and talk to individual Canadians about the need for electoral reform and for proportional representation so that they can make their vote count. That might not always be helpful to the NDP. I do not think we should assume that. There are people who would like to vote for the Green Party, for instance. They vote NDP now, where the NDP is competitive or either the incumbent is NDP or is seen to be a possible winner, because they see the NDP as being more of an environmental party than the other parties. However, if they could vote green and make their vote count, in terms of getting Green members into the House of Commons on the basis of proportional representation, that might be harmful to New Democrats.

We will all win and lose in various ways depending on the various permutations and combinations at any given proportional representation system and any given election. However, the real winner, if we do it right, would be Canadian democracy.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I want to commend the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona for what I think is his hallmark to make an appeal to all members to rise above the short term considerations, to rise above the partisan considerations and think about what the objective of this exercise is and what is the objective of the debate is.

I know the member for North Vancouver used up half his time beating up on the NDP because we did not make the motion votable. We brought in motions that have been votable in the past. In fact, we had some success in getting the government to support some of our votable motions. For instance, we had motions on banning bulk water exports and advancing the Tobin tax. These have been helpful as a way of registering support but they do not necessarily get the job done. We get the support on the motion but the object of the exercise is to engage parliamentarians in doing what is right for Canada.

Today is an opportunity for us to advance that and for us to work together, not just opposition parties against government but hopefully all parliamentarians who understand that we have a crisis in terms of the low voter participation and in terms of how regionalized our politics are. One of the things that is very disappointing is that the Alliance Party says it supports the notion of proportional representation but what did the Alliance spokesperson do? He spent half his time beating up on the NDP for things that have nothing to do with this issue.

I would like to ask a brief question of the member for Winnipeg—Transcona. Frankly, it arises from a well known Canadian political scientist by the name of Henry Milner who said “It is one thing to lament polarization; it is another to insist on maintaining the very institutions that exacerbate it”.

Could the hon. member elaborate on how the kind of polarization we have seen in the last few years, that is surely tearing the country apart and taking us away from the focus on moving forward, could be cut down by a system of proportional representation?

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, if we incorporated some element of proportional representation into our system and incorporated it in a way that would led to the regions being better represented in all caucuses and led to less temptation on the part of all political parties to play regional cards in their politics, we would have a country much more inclined to national unity in its politics rather than to national or inter-regional hostility in its politics.

I want to second the sentiment expressed by my leader with respect to the member for North Vancouver. I know there is sympathy within the Alliance Party ranks. I have talked to individual members. I thought that this was the kind of debate that they would relish in terms of democratic reform. It would have been an opportunity for them to bring forward some of their proposals. Instead, we get the kind of performance that we got from the member for North Vancouver.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to be able to follow my colleague, the member for Winnipeg—Transcona, in discussing this very serious proposal before parliament. I share the member's comments and concerns about how members of the Liberal Party and the Alliance caucus have treated this motion with so much disdain.

Who better than the member for Winnipeg—Transcona to acknowledge the problem that that creates for the future of this place and for democracy in this country. The member from Transcona has served this place for almost 22 years. That kind of service certainly gives him the right to speak in this place with force. He ought to be listened to by all members.

One would think that after representing a constituency and serving in this place for some 22 years, one would get stuck in one's ways, get hung up on tradition and not be willing to look at new innovative approaches. Well, that is not always the case. In fact the opposite is the case for the member for Winnipeg—Transcona who has continued over the course of those years to respect the traditions of this place while at the same time fighting for innovations and improvements.

The same goes for our colleague from Regina—Qu'Appelle, another longstanding member of the House who has for many years persistently raised the idea of electoral reform and proportional representation in this place and everywhere possible across the country. That should be a lesson and a model for members of the government side, at least, who have members who have served this place for great lengths and who should be reminded about how important it is to get out of the rut and look at new innovation.

The same cannot be said for the Alliance. The most recent political party on the scene seems to be the most resistant to change and the most contrary to any kind of cross party productive debate and dialogue on the part of parliamentarians.

I hope all members in the House will see the seriousness of this motion and look at it in terms of what we can do to make a difference in this place in addressing a very serious problem in Canada today. Let us remember, this motion is about a problem we have in Canadian society and is proposing a way to solve the problem. It is not coming forward with a set prescription and a fixed idea but is proposing that parliament look at the problem and come up with solutions.

The problem is quite simple. It is something each and every one of us deals with on a day to day basis, and that is the growing sense from Canadians that they feel helpless and hopeless in this political system and in this changing global economy. If we stop and think about the apathy, the cynicism, the doubt and despair that people feel about our political system and about some of us as politicians, is that not enough of a reason to look at an alternative to how we elect our members?

It is not just members of the New Democratic Party who are proposing this. This is not about what is good for the NDP. This is, as my colleague said, something that is about the future of the country and the health of democracy. I want to quote from a reputable organization, the Centre for Research and Information on Canada, and refer to the January 18, 2001 issue of Opinion Canada where it is clearly stated that:

There is a profound political malaise in Canada. It has developed gradually. There have been various signs of it, which when viewed in isolation, mean little. When taken together, however, a disconcerting reality emerges.

Surely this accurate description of the political malaise in Canada ought to be taken seriously. Surely every issue and idea that is put on the table to deal with the malaise ought to be taken seriously and not just dismissed out of hand, as members of the Liberal party are wont to do today.

We have heard from my colleagues about why the motion is before us. We have heard from many members about why proportional representation needs to be considered in the context of the political malaise and of voter apathy. We have heard from members that reform needs to be considered because of Canada's Balkanization along regional lines. Surely that kind of devastating and disastrous development ought to be redressed as soon as possible.

There is another reason that we need to look at proportional representation. I refer to a left-wing magazine, Canadian Dimension , and to an article written by Denis Pilon in its November-December 2000 issue. Mr. Pilon says that Canada needs proportional representation to deal with Balkanization and the fact that our electoral system has become inherently perverse in terms of reflecting the will of voters. He also suggests that we need to look at PR as a way to deal with the fact that our electoral system has become dominated by spin and media. He goes on to talk about the money driven politics of media and spin. He refers to some of the long term structural changes in campaign finance, voter contact and political communication that have led to Canadian politics becoming more media dominated and more open to spin and the tools of commercial advertising than ever before.

This is another reason we need to look at proportional representation. It is another justification for opening up discussion on this very important matter.

Denis Pilon in that article also suggested:

Clearly needed to adopt some form of PR. By doing so we will open up more democratic space for new ideas, new representational concerns and even new parties if that is what Canadians want. At the same time, PR will contribute to a different kind of democratic process. Election results will be more transparent and less open to spin and horse race coverage. Majority governments will likely result from a coalition of parties, and media will have to comment on the deliberations and negotiations with more than just sound bites. Money will still make itself felt in the political process but it will have to work harder and longer. PR will open more space to resist its machinations.

That is another very important reason for looking at a complete revamping of our electoral system and for considering proportional representation or a mix of our present first past the post system and the PR model.

The malaise I talked about is serious. It is not just a result of our electoral system and the way we elect members, although the first past the post system is a significant part of the growing cynicism and apathy among Canadians.

Just as important is the way our present election system works against people. Many members have commented before and during the debate about the serious disenfranchisement people feel and have experienced in terms of the way our present elections are run.

Many have commented on the damaging consequences of the permanent voters list in terms of denying low income Canadians, students and people who must move regularly, the ability to exercise their democratic rights and freedoms.

My colleague, the member for Palliser, has described the impact of the permanent voters list on Canadians as rank discrimination. I cannot agree with him more coming from a constituency where some 40% of the people live below the low income cutoff line. If time permitted I could describe in great detail how these people felt about being left off the voters list, about the difficulty they had getting on the voters list and about their sense of being completely disenfranchised from the democratic process.

The double whammy comes from an electoral system that does not reflect the majority will of Canadians. It comes from a system that makes it very difficult for people to get on the voters list and exercise their right to vote with as few barriers as possible. Those things have to be addressed, and that is the purpose behind the motion today.

[Sarkis Assadourian, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this is a very important issue, especially in a system like ours.

The hon. member mentioned that she is supporting proportional representation. Some countries in the world, especially east European countries, have such a system. Some countries have a mix of PR and first past the post.

If proportional representation is NDP policy, would it consider adopting it in the two provinces that have NDP governments? It could be tested at the provincial level before being tested at the federal level. If PR is that party's policy, perhaps it should consider adopting proportional representation in a province where it has control. We could then see how the public would react, and perhaps it could then be adopted federally.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, that is an interesting proposition on the part of the Liberal member.

We in the New Democratic Party prefer to show leadership at the federal level. That is why we have the motion before the House today.

It is the federal New Democratic Party's policy to pursue the idea of proportional representation and to ensure that the necessary changes to our electoral system are made so that people would not feel disenfranchised and would believe the votes they cast actually counted and made a difference. That is the kind of leadership we would like the federal government to show.

What is wrong with this place taking the lead and providing direction for the rest of the country? What is wrong with this place having dialogue on the merits and possibilities of electoral reform and proportional representation?

The question skirts the issue at hand, which is why Liberal members today have been dismissive of the motion, a motion that simply calls for a dialogue on the possibilities and merits of proportional representation.

When we have a serious problem of political apathy and cynicism, it surely must be taken up by the federal government. That is where we must begin. That is what Canadians are counting on us to do.

[Bob Speller, Liberal, Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the hon. member as she talked about leadership. I do not see this as a question of leadership.

I come from a rural area in southwestern Ontario. I am of the view that my constituents elected me to represent them. I have a lot of concern with the idea of proportional representation because it means that the party will choose the people it wants to run. I believe in the democratic principle that we are here as the result of the work we do in our ridings and as a result of every person in my riding having the ability to run for parliament.

I do not think this is a question of leadership, as the hon. member has tried to say. I think there are differing opinions in the House and from across the country on that. We in rural areas are scared to adopt such a system because of our small numbers. There are a small number of people in agriculture, and we understand how important the crisis in agriculture is. If we adopt a system of proportional representation, as it exists in certain other countries, I do not think will not have the same representation.

I would say to the hon. member that it is not only a question of whether the government wants to show leadership. I suggest to her that in many ways we have shown leadership in the House on this issue, particularly with regard to electoral reform and making changes to it.

I am not saying we could not do more. I would invite a debate on that. However, I would say to the member that there are real feelings of differences in the country, which have nothing to do with the politics of it.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I certainly agree with my colleague from the Liberal Party that there are different views in the House, but that is the very essence of the motion that is before the House today.

The motion recognizes that there is a looming crisis of political legitimacy. It points to, what we all talked about and heard about, the problems with our electoral system, with parliamentary reform and with providing real ways for citizens to participate and to believe that their actions make a difference. If that is the case then surely the member can support the motion.

To conclude, I refer the member to one comment in the January issue of Opinion Canada which states:

Electoral reform has been described as “the plaintiff chorus of the perennial losers.” However, a study commissioned by the Privy Council Office and conducted by C.E.S. Franks, a noted Professor of Political Science, pinpointed several aspects of the political system for reform. Among them was the suggestion that—