Debates of Feb. 20th, 2001

Ways And Means

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Secretary of State (International Financial Institutions)]

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 83(1), I wish to table a notice of ways and means motion involving amendments to the Excise Tax Act, including explanatory notes. I ask that an order of the day be designated for consideration of the motion.

These amendments to the Excise Tax Act deal with encouraging rental housing, with giving a competitive edge to our Canadian manufacturers who import and export, and with multi-employer pension funds. This is very worthwhile legislation that has come forth from members of the House acting on behalf of their constituents. We expect speedy passage of the legislation.

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas Act

[Sheila Copps, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-10, an act respecting the national marine conservation areas of Canada.

Mr. Speaker, I am very excited about the introduction of this act respecting the national conservation areas of Canada. I think it will add to the framework that we have for ensuring that our collective heritage is saved not just on land but also at sea.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Petitions

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present a petition which has been signed by hundreds of residents of British Columbia that underscores the concern that Canadians do not wish to be party to a policy that involves the death of over 5,000 Iraqi children every month.

The petitioners note that Denis Halliday, the former UN undersecretary for Iraq and co-ordinator of the 661 committee, has said that the situation amounts to genocide.

The petitioners call on the Government of Canada to pursue urgently the de-linking of economic from military sanctions and to rapidly lift economic sanctions in order to improve significantly the humanitarian situation of the Iraqi people. I support the petition strongly.

Questions On The Order Paper

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

[The Speaker]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

Supply

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

moved:

That this House strike a special all-party committee to examine the merits of various models of proportional representation and other electoral reforms, with a view to recommending reforms that would combat the increasing regionalization of Canadian politics, and the declining turnout of Canadians in federal elections.

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to have the opportunity to kick off this important debate this morning on electoral reform. I would like to indicate at the outset that I will be splitting my time with the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to congratulate the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle for his dogged, persistent, stubborn determination in pushing forward with electoral reform that is so badly needed.

I will talk a little bit about the problem that we believe very much needs fixing and I will also address some of the ways in which we can do that. We are all familiar with the expression, “if it ain't broke don't fix it”, but in this case there is something broken and there is a problem that we need to address.

[An hon. member]

There is nothing to fix.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

The member just said that we do not need to fix it. It speaks to the problem that we have too many government members who agree that our electoral system creates distortions, divisions and undemocratic results in terms of the composition of parliament, but in the same breath they ask what could be wrong with a political system that produces three majority Liberal governments in a row.

We have an electoral system based on a first past the post system. The problem with that is that the electoral system leaves too many people feeling that they do not have any way to make their vote count. They feel they may as well not vote because they know perfectly well that if they do not support the majority view then their view does not count at all and they do not have any way to influence the composition of parliament so that important, significant minority views are fairly and proportionately represented.

It is a problem that our first past the post system creates distortions and that kind of unrepresentativeness. It is equally a problem, perhaps even more of a problem, that it creates a winner takes all mentality. That is the seed of the kind of arrogance and unresponsiveness that comes from majority governments that are over-represented.

I know some people say that the NDP keeps pushing for electoral reform because it believes that if we had an electoral system that included a proportional representation element that it would likely end up with more seats in parliament. With many elections that is true, but even over-represented Liberals must recognize that it is a problem when we have an election in which, for example, the Liberals win 50% of the vote, but they win 97% of the seats as they did in the most recent election in Ontario.

It is not just about the over-representation of Liberals, which is the problem with the winner take all mentality of the Liberal government. It is also about other distortions.

Let me give another couple of examples. In the 1997 election the Reform Party got 19% of the vote. The Progressive Conservative Party got 19% of the vote. Did it have roughly the same number of seats? No, the Reform Party won 60 seats in the House of Commons and the Conservative Party won 20 seats in the House of Commons. Some may ask what is wrong with that because that is the system? They say that is just what it means to be in a democracy where the winner takes all.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

At least in a Canadian one.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague for Winnipeg—Transcona has exactly made the point with his comment. Canada is very much in a minority among democracies in the world in perpetuating this undemocratic electoral system.

It is a matter of fact not a matter of rhetoric that Canada is one of only three remaining democracies in the world that has a population of over eight million people that persists in a winner take all, first past the post electoral system. Every other democracy in the modern world with a population of over eight million people has incorporated some element of proportional representation into their electoral system

There is a very good reason for that. We know the Liberal Party and its members do not know what the problem is because they like the results. The problem is that it does not work for the electorate.

We have watched a steady decline in the number of Canadians participating in election campaigns. Back in 1958, 75% of eligible citizens voted. In the most recent election, 58% of Canadians who were eligible to vote actually cast their vote. People want to know what is wrong with members of the public who do not get out and vote. I know what is wrong. They are correct when they feel that getting out and voting, if they do not embrace the majority view of the government in power, it means that their voice does not really get heard and their views do not get expressed.

We have a problem. The good news is that we know what to do to fix it. It is not a question of it being a pat formula. Let me make very clear what the motion is that we are putting forward today as our official opposition business because we think it is that important. Canadians want to see some leadership from all sides of the House on the issue.

The motion says that we need to have a debate, not just a debate in the House but a debate that will involve getting out and talking to Canadians about what the various forms of proportional representation could be; what it would actually mean for Canada; what a system of proportional representation would do to strengthen national unity so that we do not end up with regional divisions in the House which threaten the unity and future strength of the country; and what it would mean to ensure that caucuses are more representative and that in every caucus there would be some representation that would allow for a more national view of what the country is, what people want to see in their parliament and what they want their government to do on their behalf.

This is not an easy problem for us to deal with as parliamentarians. To people who are hard pressed to pay their increasingly costly fuel bills, who are forced to choose between paying for their groceries or their prescription drugs because of broken promises by an arrogant Liberal government, the notion of electoral reform and proportional representation seems a bit abstract and esoteric.

I think our challenge, not just New Democrats who are pressing for electoral reform but all parliamentarians, is to talk to Canadians who properly expect and demand leadership about the issue of electoral reform to allow them to understand the problems they are struggling with, whether it is health care, inadequate income, the difficulty of paying for an education or whatever their bread and butter daily struggles, and why a more representative parliament would speak more concretely and effectively to their needs.

Let me finalize my comments by quoting a Chinese proverb: “If we do not change the direction we are going, we are likely to end up where we are headed”. Too many citizens in the country do not feel they are represented in the House and we have a responsibility as parliamentarians to fix that.

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to President of the Treasury Board]

Mr. Speaker, I enjoyed the opening remarks of the leader of the New Democratic Party. In spite of her belief that proportional representation is a cure-all for our political system, probably just as many Liberals stayed home in the last election as supporters of the opposition. Even if we had proportional representation we may well have ended up with the same results. I know she would not appreciate that.

I am concerned about proportional representation in areas where it has been used exclusively. I am thinking of Spain before Franco where there were 100 parties and Ukraine where there are 60 parties because they had proportional representation. Basically proportional representation would assist regionalism in Canada. It would allow for a multiplicity of political parties representing every little interest, every little farm community and so forth across the nation. It would weaken our form of government.

The leader of the NDP talks about strengthening national unity. I think it is a panacea for creating a weakened federation and a weakened government in Canada.

If the leader of the NDP wanted to talk about people who are concerned about relevancy, rather than bring an issue like proportional representation to the floor of the House of Commons, why did she not talk about health care? Why did she not talk about child poverty? Why did she not talk about the environment? Those are things that mean something to people, not proportional representation.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I have to say that it is extremely depressing. There is a call by the Canadian people to do something about the fact that they are losing confidence in their parliamentary institutions. It is utterly irresponsible for any member of the House, and I do not care in which caucus, to stand and talk about something as absurd as going to a total PR representation system and creating 100 political parties. They should not insult the Canadian public like that.

There must be some reason every parliamentary democracy in the world with a population of over eight million has said that it needs to be more reflective and more representative of the people and that it has a responsibility to explore the options.

There are many different formulas for proportional representation, but in the name of heaven let us not misrepresent what is being proposed. Let us not display ignorance about why other democratic countries have moved to embrace some elements and formulas of proportional representation.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member for Halifax mentioned that there are only three countries left in the world which exclusively have the first past the post constituency system, but she failed to name those three countries and I will name them for her. They are Canada, the United States and Britain, the three oldest democracies and the three most successful democracies.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, it is important to have this debate because of the amount of self-serving representation that people will make. Let us be clear about something. Canada is not the only country with a crisis in terms of the decline of voter participation. The United States is in an even greater crisis in terms of the erosion of the participation of the electorate in the political system.

The U.K. is the second country. In the U.K. today the parliaments of Scotland, Ireland and Wales are all elected with an element of proportional representation. The government of the U.K. has also launched a process of electoral reform and indicated it is prepared to have a referendum on the issue of proportional representation.

I plead with members to take the opportunity today, a day we have chosen as our opposition day, to have an informed, earnest and sincere debate. We chose today not to make it a votable motion but for the reason of opening it up to thoughtful debate. We are not asking people to commit to the bottom line. We are saying we should have a reasonable debate about the problems we have and about the solutions we know are at hand.

[Lorne Nystrom, NDP, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words about this subject today. I appeal to the Liberals opposite to look seriously at the merits of changing our electoral system.

In Canada today there is a real crisis in democracy and I think we are sleepwalking toward that crisis. If we look at the turnout in the last election, fewer than 60% of the people voted. In 1997 it was 67%. Years ago it was 75%, 80% or 85%. People are being turned off by the political system and by politics.

If we walk down the street in any town or city in Canada we find people who are alienated from the political system. Part of the reason is that when people elect parliament their votes are not mirrored in the composition of the seats. That is one of the big problems we have today.

For example, the Liberal Party received around 40% of the vote last November. Only about 60% of the people voted. Therefore the Liberals received about 25% of the support of the electorate. About a quarter of the people have elected a government that will govern constitutionally for some five years. That is a problem in terms of the credibility of the House of Commons and the credibility of parliament. That is why we should seriously look at changing our electoral system.

It is amazing. Those of us who come here, come through the first past the post system. The last time there was a vote in parliament on proportional representation was before you were born, Mr. Speaker. The year 1923 was the last time there was a vote in the House of Commons on PR.

Last fall my private member's motion was drawn and declared votable. We had one hour of debate and the election came before we had a chance to vote on the motion.

We are saying that we should strike an all-party committee to look at the merits of the various forms of proportional representation that might be incorporated in terms of an element into our electoral system. We must have a debate on the issue. It is a fundamental issue which we should be facing but parliamentarians are refusing to deal with it.

There is growing interest across the country in the whole idea of changing our electoral system. There is an organization called Fair Vote Canada. There are other organizations out there promoting a change. I will be hosting a conference in Ottawa on March 30 and March 31 at which all five political parties will be speaking to and supporting the idea of looking at the kind of PR that might be relevant to our country. I call upon the Parliament of Canada to join the cause of looking at changing our electoral system into something that is more relevant to the 21st century.

Our system is outdated. There are now only three countries in the world with more than eight million people that do not have some form of PR. They are India, the United States and Canada. Britain, the mother parliament, has an element of PR in the Scottish, Irish and Welsh parliaments. All other members from Britain are elected to the European community by PR. In the election after next England will probably have a measure of PR in terms of what the Blair government is planning. Canada will be one of only three countries in the world without some element of PR.

Another problem with the lack of PR in the first past the post system is that a lot of people feel their votes are wasted. Many Canadians vote for people who are not elected to the House of Commons because of the winner take all political system. If we had a system of PR people would be empowered and included because their votes would be reflected in the House of Commons. If we received 20% of the votes we would have roughly 20% of the seats. That is not the case in the House of Commons today.

Canada has a very unfair system. Let us look at the last election. The party to my left over here, the Conservative Party, required 130,000 votes to elect a Conservative member of parliament while the Bloc Quebecois required 36,000 votes to elect a member of the Bloc Quebecois. That is how distorted our political system is.

Sometimes it works in favour of one party against another, but the first past the post system always distorts the outcome of elections. What we see in the House of Commons does not reflect the way Canadians are voting. That is why the political system must be changed.

In 1997 the Conservative Party got 19% of the vote and the Reform Party got 19% of the vote. The Conservatives got around 19 seats and the Reform Party got around 60 seats. The NDP and the Bloc each had 11% of the vote. We had 21 seats and the Bloc had 44. The Liberal Party, with just 38% of the vote, won a majority and can constitutionally govern for five years. That is not fair. That is not just.

In the province of Ontario we would think everyone is Liberal. In the last campaign the Liberals won about 50% of the votes and 97% of the seats. In 1997 they had fewer than half the votes, 49.6% or 49.7%, and had all but two members of parliament from the province of Ontario. The electoral system distorts the way Canadians think.

It is the same in the west. People might think all but a few people in the west vote for the Reform Party or the Alliance Party. In the campaigns of 1993 and 1997 the reform alliance was a minority party in western Canada. It received 40% plus of the popular vote, yet it won the absolutely overwhelming majority of seats.

That is the unfairness of the system. Other countries have remedied the unfairness by bringing an element of PR into their electoral systems so that people's votes are counted in parliament. It is about time we caught up with the trend in terms of modernizing democracy.

There is also the whole question of national unity and regionalism. We are seeing more of a regional Canada all the time. We are seeing it increasing day by day. I am thinking in terms of the politics of the Harris government, of the Klein government and of the Parti Quebecois that regionalize Canada. That is now reflected in the House of Commons where we have in essence five regional political parties representing one or two regions of the country.

If we had a system of PR, all parties would be forced to think of the country as a whole, of a national vision of what is best for Canada, because a vote in Newfoundland would have the same power as a vote in rural Saskatchewan or Montreal or Vancouver. It would force all political parties to have a national vision to knit and pull the country together. That is not happening today in terms of our first past the post political system.

There is also the whole question of empowerment. People feel excluded from the electoral system. If we had an element of PR in the electoral system everybody's vote would count. Nobody's vote would be wasted, not just on election night but throughout the term of the parliament. It would mean a radical change in the Parliament of Canada. It would mean almost certainly that most governments would be minority governments. It would force a radical thing upon the Parliament of Canada. It would force politicians to work together to come up with a consensus like most countries in the world.

Since 1921 we have only had three governments of a majority sense that were elected by the majority of the people. The other majorities have been fake majorities in terms of a minority electing a majority of MPs and then governing as a majority. That is true in the case of all three Liberal majorities.

There were very few majority governments elected by a majority of the people. There were Mackenzie King in 1945, John Diefenbaker in 1958 and indeed Brian Mulroney in 1984 who, with a big sweep, had about 49.9% or 50% of the votes.

Time and time again we are electing a parliament with a composition that does not reflect the voting pattern of the people of Canada. What we are saying today is that we should strike an all party committee to look at the various types of proportional representation that might be relevant to this unique federation of Canada and make a recommendation back to parliament as to the best type of system for the Canadian people.

People talk across the way of Israel and Spain and many years ago. There are all kinds of proportional representation systems. We are saying that we should bring an element of PR into the Canadian system. We are not specifying as to what that element should be, that is for the Canadian people to decide. It is the unique federation. Perhaps we could look at a model that is similar to Germany. It has half the members chosen on a riding by riding basis and half of the members chosen through the proportional representation of the parties. It has what is called the mixed member proportional system which seems to have worked very well for Germany as a federation.

There are all kinds of other examples. Some countries have 15%, 20% or 25% of their members elected by proportional representation and that may also work well for them.

These are some of the things we should be considering in reforming and changing our electoral system and making it more fair, more just and more reflective of how the Canadian people vote. People are losing confidence in the political institutions, in politicians and in the very democratic practice of voting by itself.

We are also saying in the motion today that we should look at other various electoral and democratic reforms as well. The time has come, for example, to abolish the unelected, undemocratic and unaccountable Senate. I would abolish it and bring those checks and balances into the House of Commons by way of stronger committees, more independence for committees, less power for the Prime Minister's office and better reflection of the regions through proportional representation.

Others want to elect the Senate, but either way we look at it, all the polling shows only about 5% of Canadians support the existing Senate. Yet members of parliament decade after decade support keeping the other place the way it is. No wonder Canadians are losing confidence in the people elected to the House of Commons. This is another reason why we have to change the electoral system in Canada.

My time is up but I want to move the following amendment. I move:

That the motion be amended by inserting the word “immediately” after the word “House”.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The amendment proposed by the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle is in order. Debate is on the amendment.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I was obviously interested in what the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle had to say. I know he has worked on this issue for a long time. It is too bad that in the last parliament we did not get to vote on his private member's bill having to do with proportional representation. It was also raised in the last parliament by myself. I remember asking a question to the Prime Minister. We got the usual sort of partisan trivia from the Liberal front bench.

When I asked, on behalf of the NDP for an all party committee, for what is being asked for today, not for a particular solution but for a process by which these concerns of the Canadian people could be taken into account, the response of the Prime Minister was that because the NDP lost elections and they won them that was why it wanted an all party committee struck.

However, it seems to me, if I heard the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle correctly, we are talking about the country, not about the NDP, Tories or the Reform. We are talking about the political fabric of the country and the way in which certain fault lines are developing, both in terms of voter confidence and regional division, as a result of the first past the post system, the way in which it tends to throw up a homogeneous image of particular regions. As the member said, it looks like everybody in Alberta is a reformer, everybody in Quebec is a sovereignist, everybody in Ontario is a Liberal or whatever the case may be.

Could the member elaborate on that?

[Lorne Nystrom, NDP, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the first past the post system tends to really distort the composition of the House of Commons. If we look at election after election we can see good examples of that.

I think of 1993, for example, when the Conservative Party was wiped out. One would have thought that nobody voted Conservative in the country. The party had two members, the member for Saint John and Jean Charest. However, the Conservatives received some 17% of the vote. It took over a million people or thereabouts, if my recollection is correct, to elect a Conservative member of parliament.

As much as I opposed the Brian Mulroney government, we should have had an electoral system that gave that party some representation which would have reflected the proportion of the vote in the country. What has happened now is even worse than that. We have the regional divisions that are setting into the country where we have people in the various provinces and regions voting as a block for their particular party. We come to parliament now with five regional parties. The Liberal Party itself is basically a regional party centred mainly in the provinces of Ontario and Quebec. That is not good for the unity of the country.

If we had PR it would force all parties to address the regional issues. It would force Liberals, for example, to address the issue of the farm crisis in the prairies, which they are not doing now because they do not have any members of parliament from there. It would force my party, the NDP, to address the issues of Quebec because a vote in Quebec would be worth as much as a vote in Regina. That is not happening in the current political system.

The other thing it would do is radically change the voting patterns in the country. People could afford to vote NDP in rural Alberta, Liberal in rural Saskatchewan and Reform in Newfoundland and the votes would count. That would change the voting pattern in Canada and the Canadian people would all of a sudden find a parliament that reflected the way they felt in terms of the common good of Canada.

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Durham, ON]

Mr. Speaker, in spite of the comments of the member from Halifax, who I think said my comments were somehow ignorant and that we would have an intellectual discussion, I refer her to the fact that my political science professor was Dr. Pauline Jewett.

The member for Regina—Qu'Appelle made two what I think are conflicting statements. First, he went through a dissertation of majority governments in Canada and said we would never have a majority government had we had proportional representation. That is the very point I am was trying to raise: we would never have majority governments in the country, which would basically weaken the federation.

He said the individual opposition parties would have a great national vision. Why should they when 40,000 votes from anywhere in the country would give them one seat? We would not have five political parties over there, we would have about 30 or 40.

[Lorne Nystrom, NDP, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Mr. Speaker, Pauline Jewett was my seat mate in the House, so I am wondering whether or not he really understood her lectures or knew Pauline very well.

The member talked about 40 or 50 different political parties. There are many countries in the world that have PR, like Germany which has very few political parties. There are different ways to model a PR system. Some countries have a threshold of 5%. Some countries have a threshold of 3% or 2%. These are different things we can do to model the proportional representation system.

In terms of majority governments, I said we would have very few majority governments likely in a PR system. We have only had three majority governments elected by a majority in the last 75 or 80 years. What is wrong with that if that is the way the Canadian people vote? If Canadian people want minority governments or even, dare I say it, a coalition government or government that works together with opposition parties, that is what they vote for. We want to elect a parliament that is reflective of how people vote.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak today on the motion moved by the hon. member for Halifax, which states:

That this House strike a special all-party committee to examine the merits of various models of proportional representation and other electoral reforms, with a view to recommending reforms that would combat the increasing regionalization of Canadian politics, and the declining turnout of Canadians in federal elections.

I listened attentively to the hon. member for Halifax and to the hon. member who spoke afterward. I must say that I am not at all convinced by these proposals.

Our election law is fundamental to our system of parliamentary democracy. Since confederation our electoral system has been based on geographically bound constituencies, each generally electing a single member to the House of Commons. This provides a clear chain of accountability from an individual member of parliament to his or her constituents.

When I go to my constituency office, I am the person who was elected by those people to represent them, not chosen from a list, not knowing whether I was the first, second, third, fourth, fifth or whatever on that list of preferences. The elector, of course, has a right in a subsequent election to directly remove a member if such is the wish at that time. That is direct accountability.

Similarly, and on a grander scale, Canadians can remove the government and replace it with another government if they chose to do so at a particular point of time, as the Canadian electorate so wisely did in 1993.

As the sole representative of his or her constituency, a member of parliament is directly responsible to his or her constituents on any issue with which parliament may be dealing. Our current arrangement is such that an MP is exposed to a broad range of issues and does not merely speak for his or her party. As the sole representative for an area, he or she must seek redress for all matters or grievances and take into account the concerns and views of all constituents.

All members of this House, including me, spend a considerable share of time responding to specific interests within a constituency on issues ranging from immigration to agriculture to everything else. I held constituency office yesterday morning before coming to Ottawa to discharge my functions both as an MP in this House and as a member of the Canadian cabinet. Consequently, an MP is encouraged, in very practical ways, to fulfil the basic requirements of any political system and that is the reconciliation of the wide variety of interests within each constituency and then right across the country.

I believe that Canadians want to be represented by someone from home, someone who knows them and someone they can talk to and see in the House of Commons. If such was not the case, why do people who do not come from the particular constituency or from a district or from a city, in the case of an urban area where the boundaries are a little hard to determine, or from the riding have a much more difficult time getting elected than those who are? It is because people want to be generally represented by someone they know. That is only normal and, as far as I am concerned, that is only appropriate.

As the hon. member across the way indicated, proportional representation raises many issues. Our current electoral system allows much greater scope for the voters to judge the merits of a popular candidate than do countries with a proportional representation system where in some cases, and granted I will agree not all cases, voters have little choice but to support a party list as presented.

Another issue is political stability. We have seen examples in countries with proportional electoral systems where, after an election, it has taken weeks to form a government. After the government is formed, a coalition often involves narrow special interest parties and the government is often unable to continue to maintain the confidence of the legislature. That has been the case many times in places like Israel and Italy and in France, where they had a system like that which they later abandoned. France of course did away with proportional representation several years ago and, as far as I know, at the national level there is little appetite to bring it back.

Proportional electoral systems frequently require the formation of a coalition between parties of different political allegiances. As a result, proportional representation can mean that the government is formed by coalitions made through backroom political negotiations rather than through the ballot box. I believe that is a far less appropriate way of governing than the system we have now.

Proportional representation therefore allows small one-issue parties to become kingmakers of a sort, which enables them to sometimes force their own agenda on a nation as a whole, again, as has happened in some cases recently.

Some countries have found that proportional representation exacerbates regional differences and cleavages within society and makes it more difficult to reach a national consensus on key issues.

Proportional representation can also reduce MPs' independence and of course their ability to serve their ridings. Our first past the post system, however, encourages the formation of major parties around a coalition of members representing different regions, different language groups, different ethnic groups and so on.

In his motion the hon. member claims that a system of proportional representation would remedy voter apathy. Where is her proof of this? There is none, of course.

The decline in voter turnout in Canada and other western democracies, for this is not a solely Canadian phenomenon, relates to a number of factors. We are not the only ones to have seen such a decline.

As I have said, it is obvious that there is no proof that proportional representation would have any effect on voter turnout. I am not aware of any country that has adopted proportional representation and seen an immediate improvement in voter turnout. Personally, I would venture to say that it might reduce participation, as I have already said. Proportional representation is bad for political stability and parliamentary effectiveness, and particularly bad for MPs' accountability to their electorate. There is no doubt that this is the price to be paid.

Devotees of the proportional representation system have maintained, and continue to maintain, that it favours representation of the major segments of the population or of certain groups, such as women.

Contrary to what certain people have stated, international experience has demonstrated very clearly that such an improvement is the result of the adoption of quotas, for example parties setting themselves the obligation to increase the participation of women or some other specific group. This improves the participation of women candidates or candidates from other target groups in society.

Finally, our electoral system is characterized by direct suffrage. All that the voter needs to do is indicate his or her preferred candidate. That is it. Nothing complicated. The voter participates, makes his choice quickly, and that choice is clear.

Our system makes it possible to reduce the number of invalid votes. As well, the votes are counted quickly in Canada. In general, Canadians know, within hours of the polls closing, who will form the government and who the opposition.

Need I remind the House that last fall there was an election in Canada and another country at the same time. In Canada, 17 million ballots were opened in the space of 90 minutes, or so. We knew the first and second place winners, the losers, and so on. This was done in 90 minutes.

A democracy south of us with a system that is not proportional, but is much more complicated than ours, took over two months to establish the winner in its election campaign.

This leads me to conclude that our system is better than many others. Of course, it may not be perfect, but it is better.

A paper on electoral reform released today by the Institute for Research on Public Policy notes some of these problems that other countries have experienced. IRPP still concludes that proportional representation, in its opinion, is a good idea, but even it argues that, and I will read from its press release, “the chief downside” of proportional representation is that large multi-member electoral districts “would be less suited to constituency work as Canadian MPs have traditionally practiced it”. So even the group that likes proportional representation thinks that it is less accountable than what we have now. I believe that to be a major downside.

In my view, the IRPP paper understates the serious problems that other countries have had with proportional representation. It downplays the negative impact although it even states that there are some. It ignores the fact that there is little interest among Canadians for proportional representation, and let us not forget that either. It was not exactly an issue raised during the last election campaign as I canvassed door to door. As the hon. member for Durham said so astutely earlier, Canadians were asking about health care, child poverty, taxes, agriculture and so on and so forth. Very few people, I do not remember any, have raised with me the issue of proportional representation in Glengarry—Prescott—Russell.

The paper also states that there is no consensus among academics as to how to implement a proportional system.

Of course, even the best of systems has faults, including ours. We must not forget, however, that Canada may be proud of having one of the most stable and democratic political systems in the world, a system that is used as a model and has in fact been exported to a number of other democracies.

The Canadian International Development Agency, Elections Canada and others—even parliamentarians in this House—have been involved in forums on democratic process around the world. We all have, of course, in the belief that our system is the right one, and I think so too.

Our electoral system has stood the test of time, being sufficiently flexible to allow us to change it as circumstances required.

In 1991, the Lortie commission, the Royal Commission on Electoral Reform and the Party Financing, recommended that the existing system of single member constituencies be retained. So this is not just anyone.

The question of the proportional representation and of the entire electoral system is of course a difficult and complex one. However, caution is at the heart of courage, especially since the public has shown almost no interest, as I mentioned, in proportional representation and since a national system of proportional representation would necessitate all sorts of changes, including changes to the Constitution.

In conclusion, I thank the hon. member for bringing this issue to public attention. However, I do not share her enthusiasm for proportional representation. Our current electoral system provides for clear accountability at constituency and national levels. It has a proven track record that is recognized around the world and it allows members of parliament to represent a specific and identified group of constituents, those living within the geographical boundaries of the area they represent.

Finally, having listened to the speech from the member across the way, I note that it has as a premise that each party purports to want to be a national party. That is not always the case. There is a case of a political party in the House of Commons, the orientation of which I do not share, which wants to represent a region, not the entire country. The Progressives of Manitoba did at some point in the past. The United Farmers of Ontario and a number of others wanted, by definition, to be regional parties. I do not share that view, but it is certainly their right to think so and to run with that premise if that is what they want to do.

All this is to say that I believe we should continue to modernize our electoral system, as we did in the last parliament with the adoption of the new Canada Elections Act. The House will be doing more of that this Thursday when it responds to election law pursuant to a court decision. Probably later in this parliament we will have another bill pursuant to the contributions of the chief electoral officer, which he always does before the committee, and we will strive to modernize our election laws again.

The government's gradual modernization of our election laws is, in my view, a prudent and balanced approach to a complex issue that is at the heart of our system of democracy. I believe it is the course that Canadians wish all hon. members to support. That is why I cannot agree with the motion put before the House today.

[Lorne Nystrom, NDP, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the government House leader for his comments and want to refer to a couple of things he said.

He said that people want someone from home to represent them. I do not disagree with that. There are PR systems in the world, like Germany's for example, where there are single member constituencies with half of the members elected riding by riding and half elected according to the party's PR vote. In Germany, for example, when they vote they get two ballots. They vote for their local MP and their party of preference. They have what is called a mixed member proportional system, which compensates for these vagaries and distortions in the electoral system. In many ways they get the best of both worlds.

Even now I would argue that electors do not always get a member from home. The member's own leader, the Prime Minister, occasionally names candidates to run in various ridings, so we already have a system in which the party leader can refuse to sign the nomination papers of someone who is nominated in a particular riding and can parachute in a certain person. That has happened. I remember sitting on that side of the House when it happened. It has also happened on this side of the House and it happens today, so I do not think that is an argument pro or con a PR system.

The other point is the whole question of regional parties. I agree with the minister across the way. I like to have broad national parties with a national vision. I think it is good for the country in terms of knitting the country together, but a PR system could easily be designed, particularly in a federation where we can have regional parties.

We could have PR done on a region by region or province by province basis. I would not want to have a PR system where we took the vote of the country as a whole and apportioned parties in accordance with the national vote. My own preference would be the German type of system, which is a mixed member proportional system, doing it region by region or province by province. We could still have the United Farmers of Ontario or the Bloc Quebecois. We could still have a party in western Canada. What is wrong with that? We could design a PR system that fits that criteria as well.

I ask the government House leader across the way why he would not be in favour of striking an all party committee to at least look at the merits of PR and the kinds of PR models that might be relevant to our country. Almost every democracy in the world has PR of one sort or another.

We have a crisis in the country in terms of falling voter turnout, alienation toward the political system and a parliament that is very distorted in terms of its composition compared to how people vote, so why not take a look at this? Let us have a true political democracy wherein members of parliament can debate the real issues of the day. Is there any greater issue than the fundamental issue of democracy and voting? I do not think there is.

This also leads to all kinds of other issues, so why not have a parliamentary committee look at this issue, look at the various models and then make a recommendation? We have not done that in this country. If we do it, I would argue that we would be doing the Canadian people a great service.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I profoundly disagree with what the hon. member says.

First of all, he and his leader have stated that Canada is only one of three countries with a population threshold of above eight million—I do not know why that number is important—which, she says, does not have a proportional representation system.

The U.K. does not have a proportional representation system. As far as the argument about Wales, since when is that a national government? I would hope that is not what she is suggesting on the floor of the House of Commons. France does not have a proportional representation system. Actually it probably has the closest to the reverse of that anywhere. It has a second round to weed out even someone who had 49% of the vote. That system is the opposite of what she says. It simply does not do that.

The member is arguing that a modification of the proportional representation system on a region by region or province by province basis is really what he wants. That is the opposite proposition that was raised by his own leader about an hour ago in the House when she argued that this would be a way to have representation from across the country.

The member is now advocating that this is a way to ensure that regions would have a higher proportion of people who purport to represent that region rather than the national interest. That is the opposite proposition which has now been raised. It is not the same at all. As a matter of fact I agree with him. His proposition, although undesirable, is probably what would result.

The member cites the German example where the greatest virtue is that half of the MPs have no riding. Half of the MPs are elected per riding; the others are proportional. The translation is that half of them do not have a riding. I do not want a system where half of the MPs do not have a riding, where they represent no one except the whip of their party.

If there has been criticism around this place that party discipline is too strong, could we imagine what it would do to have people whose names would go up and down on the list only based on whether or not the officials of their party would like them? That is what we would have: no riding for half of the members and, on top of that, chosen from a party list according to the whims of someone who has nothing to do with what the electors want.

Is that supposed to be better than what we have? I do not think so. Our system may not be perfect, but it certainly will not be improved by advocating a policy like that one.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, I was following the debate and I will start off by saying that I was a little concerned by the reaction of the leader of the NDP to my colleague, the member for Durham, who laid out some points of view to his best knowledge. The leader of the NDP decided that he was ignorant, arrogant and a few other words that she used. That represents intolerance, which is exactly what Canadians do not want. I think the member should accept that we have to be open to ideas.

I should like to ask the member a question. Would he explain whether or not the proportional representation typical model the NDP is advocating would mean that a party could designate a region where a person could come from and deem him or her to be representative of the region simply because it does not have an elected member there?