Debates of Feb. 8th, 2001

Supply

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am always honoured to rise in the Chamber to take part in a debate such as this one.

What has happened in this instance is that a cloud has descended over the Prime Minister and over his behaviour. This debate is very much focused on the ethical behaviour of the Prime Minister. As a result it broadens to how parliament operates and how we should hold elected officials and their conduct to a certain standard.

It is only through an independent and impartial examination of circumstances that we can arrive at the truth. This should be a truth seeking exercise.

The tragedy in all of this is that the government and the Prime Minister are hiding behind this office they have created. They are holding it up to Canadians and saying that they have been cleared by this individual, this individual who is appointed by the Prime Minister and reports to the Prime Minister.

They are telling Canadians that the Prime Minister makes the rules, is the judge and appoints the referee. However the referee only reports to him. How can Canadians have any faith in what that referee might say, let alone know the standard or the guidelines that the referee is operating by?

We have asked the Prime Minister to, at the very least, put forward the guidelines and the framework within which the counsellor is to work. This is not a reflection on the counsellor himself but the office. Sadly, what may emerge from this is that the office itself has been so denigrated by the process that Canadians will never have faith in that particular form of office. That is why we should explore other avenues, such as the one in British Columbia. Perhaps we do need an independent special prosecutor who can be arm's length and can help to gather evidence in order to shed light on these types of circumstances.

There are many, particularly the supporters of the Prime Minister, who want him to be exonerated and want him to clear the air on what has taken place in these circumstances. That can only happen with a credible examination of all the facts, not the blurred facts, the fuzzy facts, the special words, the nuances and the treatment that we might tend to put in this Chamber, but done by an impartial examiner. It can only happen if, and only if, there is an office created that will allow an individual or group of individuals with staff to examine facts.

The whole substance of the motion before the House was originated by the Prime Minister and his government. This is not the creation of the opposition. This is not something that came out of thin blue air. This motion came directly from that now infamous fairy tale called the red book. This was an example of a promise that the Liberals put before the Canadian electorate on the eve of an election because they new the electorate wanted it. However, as we have seen time and time again from the government, it was pulled back and put on a shelf when the election was over. When the votes were counted those words no longer rang true. They had no validity whatsoever.

What we hope to do in the brief time that we have as members of the opposition is to pose the important questions that come from this particular circumstance. This standard of behaviour coming from the Prime Minister should be something that is particularly troubling to Canadians.

I would like to refer to a member of the current government's own backbench, the newly elected member for Vancouver Quadra in British Columbia, who has quite a storied past with respect to the justice system and to examinations of these types of questions. He is a former land use commissioner and deputy attorney general, positions that would give a unique perspective on ethical performance of government. He said that one of the things we needed was a conflict of interest commissioner who would be a legislature officer rather than a part of the executive of government and therefore independent of the executive. There is a lot of wisdom in those words. He went on to say that the more senior the politician, the greater the need to be explicit about what the rules are and what the communication is about. This is in the context of a communication between a senior member of government, in this case the head of the country, and an appointed official, and what the communication between those individuals is meant to bring about.

What we now know is that the Prime Minister of Canada, acting in his capacity, so he says, of a simple and humble member of the House, called the head of the Business Development Bank and said that there was an individual, a constituent who was in need of a loan, and that he would like the bank to look favourably upon.

It did not stop there. There was another phone call. It was an invitation to come to 24 Sussex, which again, I dare say, no member of the House, short of the Prime Minister, has unfettered access to. We cannot say what took place during that conversation in the cozy confines of the living room of the Prime Minister, but lo and behold we do know the result. The loan was approved against previous recommendations by individuals in the Business Development Bank.

Where it again became very blurred was the personal connection of the Prime Minister to the particular deal. He was the former owner of the hotel and owned lands adjacent to the particular hotel that was partitioned some time previous. This element of personal connection to the property for which the loan was secured is troubling because it was the personal benefit that might flow by having a loan approved that would improve and enhance the value of the hotel and therefore vicariously enhance the value of the adjoining lands.

There is much speculation as to when the Prime Minister actually disavowed himself, when he actually sold that property. That is very unclear. All of that examination, were it actually done by the ethics counsellor, is not available to the general public or to members of the House. It is exempt from public examination.

These are parts of the factual background of the situation which highlight the need for independence from counsellors if, most important, they are to have any credibility in the eye of the public or any credibility in the way members of the House conduct themselves and conduct their personal business affairs.

The Prime Minister made many promises to Canadians during his tenures as official opposition leader and Prime Minister, and during his ongoing attempt to build a legacy for himself.

As reported in a 1994 edition of the Ottawa Citizen the Prime Minister said that there could be no substitute for responsibility at the top. He indicated that he set the moral tone for the government and must make the ultimate decisions when issues of integrity and trust are raised.

Those words ring hollow today. When simple questions are posed to the Prime Minister in the Chamber he will not even dignify them with a response. He is completely backing away from his previous words, as we have seen him do on many occasions.

By appointing an ethics counsellor and then having that counsellor report only to him, the Prime Minister is so shallow and denigrates so much the entire idea of having an ethics counsellor that it further undermines public confidence. It drives even further underground the ability of the public to respect and have faith in public officials. That is perhaps what is most troubling of all about the subject matter.

There is a unique opportunity here for the Prime Minister not only to fulfil an electoral promise but to signal to Canadians that the Chamber can create a change and the public can once again have confidence in elected members. These are basic principles that should and could guide the Chamber in our future attempts to govern the country.

The ethics code and the ethics counsellor have lost credibility for reasons now very apparent to the Canadian public. The counsellor has lost the ability to report directly to the House and to report to the public on how the Prime Minister and ministers of the government conduct themselves. A higher standard has to be applied.

The argument of the Prime Minister and the government House leader that ultimately the Prime Minister reports directly to the House falls short. They left out important detail. The Prime Minister has to be responsible to the House. We have seen an utter and complete failure of the Prime Minister to be accountable and to be respectful of the House in the way he has conducted himself in these affairs.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the comments of the member from the Conservative Party. It was a character assassination or a witch hunt. He can confirm what I say by going back to Hansard . He went on and on with allegations that supposedly the Prime Minister said in a meeting to the representative from the bank, that he would like him to look favourably on the issue. Further the member said that he could not say what was said in that meeting. If they stand to state their position, let them state it firmly as they did during the election campaign.

The leader of the Conservative Party sent a letter; the leader of the Canadian Alliance Party sent a letter; and the ethics counsellor responded to them. They did not let it go during the election, as they state here. They did not leave a cloud hanging over it. After the election they pulled it back. It continued. We can read in today's Quorum about the inquiry.

They are not being fair to the Canadian people by making these innuendos and allegations. They are not being fair by saying one thing one moment and contradicting it in the next moment. It is total hogwash.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, let me deal with the facts. Someone in the Prime Minister's Office denied that he in fact spoke to Mr. Beaudoin, president of the Business Development Bank. We know that happened. I may have characterized what took place, but we know that conversation happened. Only two people know what happened between those individuals, what transpired in that conversation.

The Prime Minister should come forward and tell us. He should be completely frank and open with Canadians. He has an opportunity to do that. There is nothing stopping the Prime Minister from telling us what transpired in his living room. If he has nothing to hide, if there is nothing that he is ashamed of as he so vehemently states outside the House, let him come forward and table what took place in his living room. Then we will have trust and we might have faith.

Excuse me if I am not completely enamoured with the argument that we should trust the Liberals. We have heard time and time again about the GST, about free trade and about what they would not do if they were elected to office. They have swallowed themselves whole on their promises time and time again.

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I compliment the hon. member on his speech contrary to the position across the way and have a question for him.

If we in the House find or sense an ethical problem with a minister, in what way would the member propose that we get an investigation underway? In order to do so we seemingly have to make a nuisance of ourselves in the House of Commons and raise the issue to such an extent that we force the government or use some other means.

My question relates to the fact that the ethics counsellor reports to the Prime Minister. How is it possible that anybody else other than the Prime Minister can get an investigation underway on the ethics of ministers?

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the thrust of the entire debate is how Canadians can have faith in an individual appointed by and reporting only to the same person who is the subject of the inquiry in terms of conduct. There is absolutely no credibility whatsoever.

I refer to a quote from Gordon Robertson, a widely respected retired clerk of the Privy Council, the head of the Public Service of Canada who served under Prime Ministers King, St. Laurent, Pearson and Trudeau. This is what he had to say about the ethical standards of the Prime Minister, as reported in the Toronto Star of January 6: “What happened in Shawinigan never would have met the standard set in Pearson's code of ethics. I should know. I drafted it. This Prime Minister has lowered the bar”.

Is the lasting legacy of the Prime Minister that he lowered the ethical standards and lowered the bar on how a prime minister conducts himself in office? If that is the legacy he wants, he has it right now.

[Jim Abbott, Canadian Alliance, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Speaker, this being my first speech of the 37th parliament I should like to make some brief introductory remarks. First I thank God for the privilege of being here. I thank my wife and family for their unending support over the last seven years of political life. I thank the voters of Kootenay—Columbia who returned me to the House with a 68% margin, but I am concerned about the other 32% and I commit to them my unwavering support.

I thank my dedicated campaign team. I also thank my staff who have consistently served me over the last two terms and who are continuing into the third term. If they are listening today I hope they do not give up on me yet.

On the topic at hand, I am going to be referring the Liberal members to a person who is a former provincial ombudsman. He was a former land use commissioner and a former deputy attorney general. I consider this person to be an expert.

Apparently the Prime Minister also considered this person to be an expert because he selected this man over the incumbent Ted McWhinney who was the sitting member for Vancouver Quadra. Ted McWhinney was a constitutional expert and a foreign affairs consultant with a broad range of contacts. He served two terms very honourably in the Chamber. He was well respected and just an all around decent guy.

If the Prime Minister is going dump a person like that, clearly he must have in mind the calibre of the individual that he is bringing in. The member who came in, as I say, is a former ombudsman, a former deputy attorney general and a former land use commissioner for the province of British Columbia. If the Prime Minister needs to know much more about the things that we have been discussing today, and how these things should be handled, all he needs to do is consult one of his newest MPs, the new member for Vancouver Quadra.

I give credit to Vaughn Palmer who is a reporter and who asked a number of questions of the new member for Vancouver Quadra. As he pointed out, the member needs little introduction to B.C. The positions he has held give him a unique perspective on the importance of independence and openness where elected office holders are accused of wrongdoing, as has been the issue with the Prime Minister.

The reporter said:

I interviewed (this person) recently on Voice of B.C. on the Shaw Cable. To his credit, he didn't shirk at the comparison between the way things are handled here in B.C. and the way things should be handled in the case involving the Prime Minister.

The member for Vancouver Quadra stated:

B.C. is often looked at as the neanderthal of politics but B.C. on a number of fronts is a leader in new government...We've led the country in conflict-of-interest legislation...Our special prosecutor legislation is unique in Canada and in the Commonwealth.

When questioned on what specifically could Ottawa learn from B.C., the new member for Vancouver Quadra answered:

One of them is a conflict-of-interest commissioner who is a legislative officer rather than part of the executive of the government and therefore independent of the executive. We've gained good experience, proud experience and the federal government may want to look at that.

He went on to say:

One of the most difficult things for politicians to understand and senior bureaucrats to understand is that there is a line between the political and the administrative. When a politician speaks across that line to a senior bureaucrat, there is a danger of miscommunication and what may, perhaps, look like urging on behalf of a constituent might be taken as political direction to deviate from the duty of administrative fairness.

He further stated:

The more senior the politician, the greater the need to be explicit about what the rules are and what the communication is about.

The most senior politician in Canada is the incumbent Prime Minister who hand-picked the member for Vancouver Quadra.

The reporter asked:

This case you are talking about where a senior person calls a public official on behalf of a constituent sounds an awful lot like the Prime Minister three times lobbying the federal business development bank on behalf of a constituent who wanted a loan.

The reply from the member for Vancouver Quadra in January of this year was “Yeah, I don't think any of us should be comfortable with the confusion and the public unease that it caused”.

This is a quotation and I want to underline this. He further stated:

This is something we've learned earlier in B.C., that you need to make the rules very explicit, that you need to make the review processes very transparent and independent. I think this is something I can take with experience to Ottawa.

That being the case, and with there being a number of speaking slots open for the balance of the afternoon, I would naturally assume that the federal Liberals would be happy to have this member in the speaking rotation.

I think he would be able to bring a lot of light to this issue and speak directly to the Liberal members across so that they could understand what the issue is about. Clearly to this point they have not understood.

Yesterday I asked the industry minister the following question:

Mr. Speaker, Justice Ted Hughes, the B.C. conflict of interest commissioner, has established this rule for the ministers of B.C.: “A minister must not make personal representations on behalf of a constituent to—a commissioner, board, agency, or other tribunal established by the government.”

The Prime Minister obviously violated this principle in lobbying the president of the Business Development Bank on behalf of Yvon Duhaime.

Rather than answering the question directly, the industry minister attempted to deflect it. He said:

Mr. Speaker, the ethics counsellor has written recently to the Leader of the Opposition and has responded to the most recent correspondence from the Leader of the Opposition. He has made crystal clear that all these matters, all the allegations being raised today, have been addressed. There were no private benefit by the Prime Minister whatsoever and no conflict of interest.

The issue is who does that ethics counsellor answer to. If the ethics counsellor answered to the House there is no possible way the House would ever permit the ethics counsellor to say “We don't have any rules about someone actually trying to take direct influence on a member of a crown corporation so, therefore, I am exonerating him”.

I am not questioning the ethics or the competence of the ethics counsellor. What I am questioning are the rules under which the federal ethics counsellor has been set up.

Under the British Columbia conflict of interest act, clause 14(1) says “There must be appointed a commissioner who is an officer of the Legislative Assembly”.

That is the most important part but it goes further in paragraph two. It says:

On the motion of the Premier in the Legislative Assembly and on the recommendation of 2/3 of the members present, the Lieutenant Governor in Council must appoint the person so recommended to the office of commissioner.

The point is that in the province of B.C., he not only answers to the legislature in terms of his reporting, but clearly two-thirds of the legislature, the majority, would also be involved in setting the terms and conditions under which he is actually operating.

If we are ever going to re-establish the whole concept of trust, we cannot allow this situation to continue where we have the ethics commissioner reporting to his boss. If the standards are established by the Prime Minister, we end up with the kind of answer we got from the industry minister that I just quoted.

If parliament is not supreme, then the prime minister is king, autocrat, dictator and supreme ruler. The issue here is accountability. It would be my hope that the member for Vancouver Quadra can get these people to wake up, smell the coffee and realize that it is an issue of accountability. Furthermore, it is an issue of the government keeping its word that it put down in black and white in the 1993 campaign.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member opposite for bringing the debate around to something a bit less over the top and more rational. I am very pleased to have a chance to comment on his remarks.

He made reference to the framework under which the ethics counsellor operates. Other speakers have questioned whether or not such a framework exists and suggested they could not find it. I have a copy obtained from the Internet this morning. The document is public and the rules under which the ethics counsellor operates are quite public and available. One could argue that those rules should be expanded, but in any event what is there is there and available for all to see.

The member opposite, and other members have also done this, moved from referring to an ethics counsellor to an ethics commissioner. There is a difference between the two. It is important to realize the distinction. The Liberal Party's commitment in 1993 was for an ethics counsellor.

I submit to members that this is not necessarily an ethics enforcer or an ethics policeman, but rather a counsellor who will counsel officeholders.

Does the member opposite not think there is at least room for disagreement here or misunderstanding? Office holders rely on a counsellor. We would not be as forthcoming to a policeman as we would a counsellor. The counselling function is very important. We may need a policeman, but a counsellor we have.

[Jim Abbott, Canadian Alliance, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I do not take the member's comments as splitting hairs. Clearly there is a difference between a counsellor and a commissioner.

However, the words in the motion were lifted directly out of the promise that the Liberals made in 1993. However, the promise was not only about an independent ethics counsellor. Therefore, I agree that there is a difference. However, I give him the last five words “will report directly to parliament”. Clearly they have not done that and as a result, unfortunately the Prime Minister is under a cloud because he is the highest politician in the land. Unfortunately, if he is under a cloud, every other politician is also under a cloud.

What would work to his benefit is to simply follow through on the promises that he authored and he spoke about. He stood in front of the television cameras with his red book and said that people could go to the red book, however many days after he was elected, and see what he had done.

We are saying fine, we are going to the red book and we want this put in place. If the ethics counsellor was answerable to parliament, we and perhaps the people of Canada would have some confidence would have some confidence in the Prime Minister.

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my people back home for having elected me for the last 27 years, not only here, but at home also.

What is happening with this debate on the ethics counsellor is reflecting on every member of parliament on both sides of the House.

In the 1993 red book it was stated: “The erosion of competence seems to have many causes. Some have to do with the behaviour of certain elected politicians, others with an arrogant style of political leadership”.

During the selection of any officer presiding over the ethics of the House should that person be selected by this House? Should that person be selected by an independent committee of credible people on both sides of the House? Should the person not be reporting back to this House, not just to one person, so we can bring some credibility back to the House of Commons on both sides of the House? Could the member comment on that.

[Jim Abbott, Canadian Alliance, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I completely agree with the respected member of this chamber. The province of Alberta act says: “There shall be appointed as an officer of the legislature by the lieutenant governor in council, on the recommendation of the legislative assembly, an ethics commissioner to carry out those duties and functions”.

The province of Ontario's act says “There shall be an Integrity Commissioner who is an officer of the Assembly”.

I recognize the difference between counsellor and commissioner. However, when we look at the standards of these ethics commissioners, we see that there should never be a situation where we have the highest ranking politician in Canada twisting the arm of the president of the federal Business Development Bank, who he appoints, who he can fire, and indeed we suspect did fire. It casts aspersions on all of us.

Clearly, if the provinces of British Columbia, Alberta and Ontario can get their acts together, what is holding up the federal government from simply getting its act together and getting all of us out from under the cloud which the Prime Minister has put us under?

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure today to speak to this issue. I too would like to thank the 39,000 people who voted for me in the last election. I would also like to thank them for the 70% plus vote we received.

I guess it is due to the common sense of the common people in British Columbia who look for a relatively conservative type vote, and I do thank them for that.

I would also like to thank one of the individuals who has been a big part of my life in politics and a good person to bounce issues off and that is my mother, who is watching in Chester, Nova Scotia.

I want to talk about the ethics counsellor and how individuals in the country or in the House of Commons initiates an investigation by this individual, because therein I think lies part of the problem that we face.

The ethics counsellor is supposed to be, in my mind, independent of the executive, which he is not. He reports to the Prime Minister. This individual should be looking at the ethics, the morality and the issues facing members of parliament, but he is not. He reports on ministers of the government who report to the Prime Minister. This individual should be interviewed by a committee of the House, short listed and selected by members of a committee of the House. He is not. He is basically selected by the Prime Minister.

The Prime Minister says that he has drawn counsel from the official opposition leader on the appointment, but basically that is not the case. It is “Hi, how are you doing, thank you, good-bye”. What is presented on one side is not reality.

The necessity of having an individual who is independent of the executive and who will report on even more than ministers is obvious.

I will go back to the issue I first introduced, which is, how is it possible for an individual, like myself for instance, to initiate an investigation when I feel something has happened that is unethical. For example, during the election the current Minister of Citizenship and Immigration basically said that members of the Canadian Alliance were Holocaust deniers, racists and bigots.

In my opinion, not only is that a slanderous comment from a minister of the government, but it is a comment that should have been challenged by an individual. The Prime Minister should have dealt with it but he did not. Instead, he has taken it upon himself to leave that minister in that position.

I have heard from thousands if not tens of thousands of people on the issue. They are all concerned about the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration and her ethical standards of saying such a thing about so many Canadians. The idea of Holocaust denier offended so many people that there was a great call for her resignation.

[Steve Mahoney, Liberal, Mississauga West, ON]

But she was re-elected.

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

A member across the way said that she was re-elected. Well there were tens of thousands of people who were concerned about the comment.

Where do people or members of parliament go when such a slanderous, demeaning comment is made? They can come into the House and complain about it as much as they want, but with a majority government it will basically laughed at them. They can go to the Prime Minister but he will only say that if he gives it to the ethics counsellor that person might come back and say that something is wrong and then he would be embarrassed. He will not do that. Why should he embarrass himself?

The control and the jurisdiction that the Prime Minister has over the ethics counsellor is totally inappropriate. It would never exist in any normal organization. We have a minister who, in my opinion, has a lack of ethics that should be challenged, and people want it challenged, but there is no avenue to do so because the Prime Minister would see it as a problem for himself, a problem for his cabinet.

Therein lies the problem. If that individual did not report to the executive but reported to the House of Commons in general, I would bet my bottom dollar that minister would be up for investigation now.

The way the whole ethics problem in the House of Commons is handled is totally inappropriate. It should be a matter of ethics for all members of parliament on this side and that side, not just ministers.

We have heard a lot about the Prime Minister and his flirtation with money for the last few years. People are speaking about that today but I guess the same problem exists. Why would the Prime Minister appoint the ethics counsellor to investigate the Prime Minister? How naive would anybody be to think that the Prime Minister would even permit that? That will not happen. That is why the whole situation has to be reviewed.

One of the members on the opposite side said there was a difference in that he is an ethics counsellor and not an ethics commissioner. An ethics counsellor counsels. He is not an enforcer yet he should be. If the problem is that they cannot understand the difference between names and roles then we should do away with the ethics counsellor and bring in an ethics commissioner who does not report to the executive but reports to the House of Commons.

It is simple. To suggest for a moment that the real problem is the difference in a name between counsellor and commissioner is assuming that we on this side of the House and the rest of Canadians are just plain stupid. The real problem is that there is no chance on earth that the Prime Minister will allow an investigation of ethics of his ministers, members or himself, because he would bear the political outfall from that.

The position is a plain waste of time. As much as we would like to talk about having a person do one thing or another, we are really wasting our time. If we cared about ethics in the country and in the House on the part of all members, we would concentrate first on an ethics commissioner, shortlisted, hired by a committee of the House of Commons and reporting to the House on any issue not passed on a motion of the majority. Then again the majority government would get to pooh-pooh all investigations of the majority government and allow them or even push them all on the opposition. There has to be some other mechanism to kick in an investigation by this new position.

I want to summarize two things. First, the current Minister of Citizenship and Immigration undertook a particular and devastating ethical error and still sits in her job unaccountable for it. Second, we cannot make ministers or anybody else in the House accountable to a position that reports to the Prime Minister. That has to change.

[Lorne Nystrom, NDP, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I support the motion put forward by the opposition leader in the House today and the comments by the Canadian Alliance about the importance of ethics and accountability.

I want to ask a question of the former House leader of the Reform Party about the message it conveyed when members of his party like the deputy House leader spoke often about parliamentary pensions and pigs going to a trough and then after the election did a total flip flop and bought back into the plan.

I am just wondering whether he would agree that she should follow the precedent of the Minister of Canadian Heritage and resign her seat, in other words be voluntarily recalled, go back to her riding and consult her voters through a byelection. It seems to me that would be the proper way in terms of ethics and in terms of accountability. Otherwise, how can an opposition party criticize the government for the lack of ethics when its own ethical standards in terms of accountability are also tarnished?

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, that is a good question because I think it involves everybody in the House of Commons, which was the basis of my thesis in the first place.

When there are questions about whether or not something is ethical, they deserve to be answered regardless of the particular situation. The House of Commons should have a mechanism to challenge ethics, not just for ministers but for all members, including myself, on things we have done or failed to do.

However, the problem here is that there is no mechanism to undertake these kinds of things. We could not possibly leave these kinds of questions to an ethics commissioner for those folks across the way. For goodness sake, they have a majority government and we all know what happens in that situation. They out vote everybody else. They could charge, for political reasons, everybody over on this side and win all of those charges.

It is a question that has to be worked out. I think all members should be under the watchful eye of an ethics commissioner.

[Darrel Stinson, Canadian Alliance, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have to agree with what I heard in the hon. member's speech. I also heard complaints about the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration with regard to some of her comments during the campaign. The ethics counsellor could be an avenue where that could be addressed.

I also understood the member to say that an ethics commissioner is already in place in British Columbia. Did this position come into place after the NDP were caught raiding the charities, filtering the money out of that and using it during its campaigns? If so, it is a good example of why we do need that here in Ottawa.

My understanding of the way it is set up now is that it is almost like asking Frank James to look after Jesse James or Bonnie to look after Clyde.

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know when the ethics commissioner was appointed in British Columbia. However, no matter when he was appointed, I have not seen many ethics in the government of British Columbia for a number of years.

We will be throwing out the NDP very shortly. That is one of the good blessings of elections. Perhaps then, once again British Columbia will lead the country in the economy.

Even if an ethics commissioner is in place, as we have in British Columbia, it does not guarantee an ethical government. However, at least an ethics commissioner will bring issues to the public and then the decision will be made at the polls as to whether or not justice is done.

[Lorne Nystrom, NDP, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Mr. Speaker, with respect and with deference, I wonder if the member would answer the question I asked. I asked him whether the ethical thing for the deputy leader of the Canadian Alliance Party to do, because of her decision after the election to buy back into her pension plan after promising not to, a fundamental commitment that she made, would be to voluntarily resign and face her electorate in a byelection like the member for Hamilton East did on the GST issue?

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that the NDP is trying to degrade the discussion.

If we want to talk about ethics, I only need to look to my left down here at the NDP and I can really spend all day talking about ethics or the lack thereof.

[Steve Mahoney, Liberal, Mississauga West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is not often that I get a chuckle out of things that are said over there, but it is interesting that the former speaker accused one of the NDP members of degrading the discussion. All we have seen in this House, and once again we see today by putting this motion forward—

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I am the former House leader, not the former Speaker. I came this close to Speaker—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

So noted.

[Steve Mahoney, Liberal, Mississauga West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will refer to him as the person who just finished speaking. Is that any better?

Never mind Jesse James or whatever that was. It is like Homer looking after Bart Simpson over there. We are seeing that on an ongoing basis.

I want to address the issue that the person who just finished speaking brought up. It is the issue of comments made during the election by one of my colleagues, the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration.

Is it not interesting to note that when comments are made outside of this place there is no legal protection for any member? If the party opposite was so incensed in its rather thin skinned approach to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, who was at the time a candidate for re-election for the Liberal Party, why did it not simply do something about it? The comment was not made under the protection of the House of Commons. That party has access and recourse to the legal system if its members feel they have been slandered in some way.

The comment that was made was based on the fact that over the years enough things have been said by people purporting to represent that party and its predecessor such that an image has been created within the broader public in Canada that it attracts people with some unusual, perhaps to be kind, fringe ideas.

I recall during the election campaign having a very fine gentleman representing the Alliance Party running against me in my riding of Mississauga West. He was a member of the Chinese community, in fact, the president of the Chinese Association of Mississauga. I remember how upset he was at an all candidates meeting about the comment that came from one Betty Granger, a candidate for that party, who talked about the Asian invasion.

Members can imagine how my opponent, being of Asian extraction, reacted and how he felt in regard to that kind of insensitive comment. That is the problem and that is what the minister, the candidate at the time in Thornhill, was referring to. So if those members opposite want to say that she did not have a right to make those comments, I beg to differ, and they have a right to take action.

Let me share another example of what is, in my view, unethical behaviour, a statement that I am quite prepared to make either in this place or outside this place. I am referring to the current Leader of the Opposition who, when a member of the Alberta legislature, wrote a letter—he did not say this in the Alberta legislature—to the editor slandering a lawyer who was representing a person who had been charged, not yet convicted, with pedophilia.

The implication in the letter written by the Leader of the Opposition, the implication that people took, was that somehow this defence attorney was in support of pedophiles because he had the gall to represent someone who had been charged with a criminal act. Do members see the fundamental problem with that? He did not say it exactly. It was implied. The court seemed to agree that the implication was there because it forced the Leader of the Opposition into a settlement.

If the Leader of the Opposition was not afraid of having his day in court, why did he settle? I presume he received advice from his lawyers who told him he was in deep trouble and that he had better cut a deal, settle and get out.

The fundamental principle in our justice system is that whether we like the charge or not, whether or not in our opinion the person is as guilty as we can imagine, it is not up to him and it is not up to any one of us to sit in judgment of a fellow citizen who has been charged but has not yet had their day in court or had an opportunity to present a defence and tell his or her story.

That did not seem to matter to the then member of the Alberta legislature. He felt that it was very justifiable, outside of the protection of that chamber, to publicly castigate this person.

If we want to talk about ethics, I think it is indefensible for him to make that kind of assertion as someone who has tried to stand tall as a member of the Alberta legislature in a very important position, who I believe was a minister of labour, who certainly was a finance minister, who worked in that distinguished position in that distinguished facility and who was entrusted with the confidence of the people of his riding.

I do not know how anyone, including that particular member, can defend it. It grates on us a bit on this side of the House to see someone who actually did that stand here and lecture us about ethics. I do not know that they on that side understand the implications of the word.

Then he left town and came to Ottawa as the leader of Her Majesty's loyal opposition, leaving behind him a bill for the taxpayers as a result of the settlement that was made as a result of the letter that he wrote. As a result of the unethical practice of castigating a member of the bar in the province of Alberta and attacking that person with his personal views, he left behind an $800,000 tab for the taxpayers in Alberta to pick up.

There is a former attorney general from Alberta in the House. I find it hard to believe that the hon. gentleman can stand with a straight face or can stomach the activity by the person who is now his leader.

To give members another example of this holier than thou populist prairie preacher who comes into the House of Commons pretending to be the new sheriff in town, pretending he is going to change the way we do things, this is the fellow—

[Dick Harris, Canadian Alliance, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I strongly object to the characterizations of the member opposite, who is known in the House for his personal attacks during his speeches. I ask that he withdraw that sarcastic reference to our leader he just uttered.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

That is not necessarily a point of order, but on the other hand I would ask the hon. member for Mississauga West to be more judicious in his choice of words.