Debates of March 16th, 2001

Industry

[John Cannis, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, the government is not spending money. The government is investing money. It is investing in the new economy and that is why Canada is leading the pack. That is why we are attracting the best and the brightest for the new economy of tomorrow.

Points Of Order

[Jason Kenney, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, during question period, while the member for Wild Rose was putting a question to a government minister, I heard the member for Waterloo—Wellington very distinctly use quite odious remarks that were profoundly unparliamentary. He referred to members of this party as being racists. This is a term that he frequently uses.

We have brought this to the attention of the Chair in the past. I would ask that the Speaker bring to order people who use scurrilous remarks which clearly are totally unparliamentary and uncalled for and which bring disrepute on himself and this place.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The member for Waterloo—Wellington is in the House and I certainly would want to give him the opportunity to respond.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Waterloo—Wellington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, often I hear a number of things from the opposition, especially the reform alliance people, to which I yell, rubbish.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The matter raised by the member for Calgary Southeast of course is taken very seriously by the Chair. I have heard from both parties. It is my intention to review the blues and, if necessary, I will report back to the House.

Ways And Means

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Secretary of State (International Financial Institutions)]

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 83(1) I wish to table a notice of a ways and means motion respecting amendments to the Income Tax Act, the income tax application rules, certain acts related to the Income Tax Act, to the Canada pension plan, to the Customs Act, to the Excise Tax Act, to the Modernization of Benefits and Obligations Act, and another act related to the Excise Tax Act.

This notice of ways and means represents the incredible amount of work we have done in terms of the budgetary process, working closely with members from all sides of the House. I ask that an order of the day be designated to debate the motion.

Government Response To Petitions

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Madam Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36(8) I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the government's response to five petitions.

Committees Of The House

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Madam Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the first report of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

Statistics Act

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-301, an act to amend the Statistics Act (ethnicity question).

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to rise on behalf of the constituents of Calgary East to introduce my private member's bill in the House today. The purpose of the bill is to ensure that no questions can be asked in the Statistics Canada population census to determine a person's ethnicity.

Ours is a great country that respects equal rights and equal opportunities for all Canadians. Laws, programs and services must be available for all. Our nation is blessed with people from all around the world. The one common thread that holds us all together is that we are all Canadians.

I hope my colleagues recognize the intent of the bill, which is to promote equality, because we are and will remain always Canadians.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Petitions

[Deborah Grey, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton North, AB]

Madam Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I am pleased to present a petition.

The undersigned residents of Canada, many of them from the Edmonton area, draw to the attention of the House of Commons that rural route mail couriers often earn less than the minimum wage in working conditions reminiscent of another era. They have not been allowed to bargain collectively to improve their wages and working conditions like others. The private sector workers who deliver mail in rural areas have collective bargaining rights, as do public sector workers who deliver mail for Canada Post in urban areas, and they have a problem with that.

Therefore, the petitioners call upon parliament to repeal section 13(5) of the Canada Post Corporation Act.

Starred Questions

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Madam Speaker, would you be so kind as to call Starred Questions Nos. 6 and 7.

The government has answers to both of these questions and I ask that those answers be printed in Hansard as if read. .[Text]

*Question No. 6—

[Guy St-Julien, Liberal, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, QC]

What is the unemployment rate for students aged 15 to 24 in Abitibi-Témiscamingue for the month of January 2001, according to the labour force indicator?

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

For the month of January 2001, the youth unemployment rate, students and non-students, was 21.1% in Abitibi-Témiscamingue. All the estimates are based on a three month moving average using non-seasonally adjusted data.

For data reliability reasons, Statistics Canada does not release the unemployment rate for students by region on a monthly basis.

*Question No. 7—

[Guy St-Julien, Liberal, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, QC]

Concerning the distribution of 2000-01 summer career placement service funding for the Quebec region, is the variable showing the full time student population between the ages of 15 and 24 years calculated over a 12 month period or the actual academic period, excluding the months of June, July and August?

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

The distribution of 2000-01 summer career placements funding for the Quebec region was based on an allocation formula which used, among other variables, the full time student population aged 15 to 24. This variable uses Statistics Canada data and is calculated based upon a four month average for the period of May to August. The survey question from which this data is derived asks the location of permanent residency defined as residency for 30 days or more during the course of the year.

The allocation formula for summer career placements 2001-02 and the funding allocations are presently being finalized.

Madam Speaker, I ask that the remaining questions be allowed to stand.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

The House resumed from March 14 consideration of the motion that Bill C-14, an act respecting shipping and navigation and to amend the Shipping Conferences Exemption Act, 1987 and other acts, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Canada Shipping Act, 2001

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

I declare the motion carried. Accordingly, the bill stands referred to the Standing Committee on Transport and Government Operations.

(Bill read the second time and referred to a committee)

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-5, an act respecting the protection of wildlife species at risk in Canada, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Species At Risk Act

[James Rajotte, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Southwest, AB]

Madam Speaker, I should note that I will be splitting my time with my hon. colleague in front from Surrey Central, one of the most loquacious members in the House.

I am pleased to rise today and speak on Bill C-5, the species at risk act. The government describes the purpose of the proposed act as follows. It aims to protect wildlife at risk from becoming extinct or loss in the wild, with the ultimate objective of helping their numbers to recover. The act will cover all wildlife species listed as being at risk nationally and their critical habitats.

The goal of the legislation is certainly a laudable goal. We in the official opposition recognize that there is a need for effective endangered species legislation. In fact, this recognition is reflected in our official policy statement. Our policy statement states:

The Canadian Alliance is committed to protecting and preserving Canada's natural environment and endangered species, and to sustainable development of our abundant natural resources for the use of current and future generations.

Furthermore, our farm policy states:

For any endangered species legislation to be effective, it must respect the fundamental rights of private property owners.

This entails including just compensation for landowners if habitat must be taken out of production. It also means that the government should strive to be as co-operative as possible with farmers and ranchers rather than using threats and criminal sanctions.

We in the official opposition support effective endangered species legislation. However, we have some concerns with regard to this particular legislation. We do not disagree with the government's goal but we do have some difficulties with the message it is employing to achieve that goal.

Following the lead of our member for Red Deer and the member for Edmonton—Strathcona in the last parliament, who have done yeomen work on the bill, we have attempted to be as constructive as possible in our criticisms.

The following are the criticisms that I would like to highlight.

First, the final listing of endangered species should rest not with the federal cabinet, but with the Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada.

Second, the voluntary co-operation and incentives already in Bill C-5 should be stronger.

Third, the bill must include a clearly outlined full compensation scheme.

Fourth, socio-economic analysis should be conducted prior to the development of species recovery plans to ensure that they do play a prominent role.

Fifth, the bill must respect provincial jurisdiction and apply equally to all Canadians.

This is a substantive list of criticism, many of which have been thoroughly covered by my colleagues here in the opposition.

I would like to focus in particular on the need to protect the private property rights of landowners and include fair compensation for landowners if habitat must be taken out of production. The effectiveness of the legislation directly depends on whether or not it respect those fundamental rights. The bill fails to clearly spell out what compensation will be provided for stakeholders who are forced to lose financially in the implementation of the bill.

The environment minister has indicated that he will spell out these compensation provisions in the regulation of the bill after its passage by parliament. That is simply unacceptable.

Furthermore, the Pearce Report, which the minister seems to be considering at this point, suggests that landowners would only receive compensation if economic losses exceeded 10% and that compensation would be limited to only 50% of losses. This is neither full nor fair compensation.

There are therefore two specific requirements that we would propose for compensation. First, the compensation provisions must be clearly indicated in the bill before members of the House so that we as parliamentarians and Canadians can determine whether these provisions are just.

Second, those who incur increased costs or reduced income as a result of the requirements of the bill must have full compensation. Saving endangered species is a benefit to all Canadians. The cost should not be excessively borne by a few landowners, farmers, ranchers, they should be shared by all.

Those are the specific compensation requirements.

I would now like to address the more general issue of the need for the government to respect private property rights. It seems to me that the government, through many of its bills, has encroached further and further into the realm of private property rights. This is a disturbing trend, one that we as parliamentarians ought to watch very carefully.

It is interesting that since the beginning of the session we have been very much occupied with the whole question of parliamentary reform, which is a smaller issue within the larger question of how we pass the laws that govern us.

However, as the famous philosopher Isaiah Berlin pointed out in his seminal essay, “Two Concepts of Liberty”, there is another question which is equally, if not more, important. That is the question of what activities government itself even ought to be making decisions about. It involves that very large question of to what extent we as individuals, citizens, families and communities require or even desire a government to involve itself in our lives.

It is a fundamental question for any political community and yet it strikes me how rarely we in the House even address it. We spend hours debating specific amendments to certain bills, but we spend precious little time debating the larger question of whether the government ought to be expanding its influence in the first place.

This is particularly alarming for me, because I generally believe that those communities which function best over the long term have governments that operate within clearly defined constitutional limits. In these communities, these limits are best set by a constitutional recognition of genuine, classical rights such as the right to own property and not be deprived thereof without just compensation.

Many great thinkers have expounded on the importance of private property and its relationship with liberty and justice. Even the great philosopher Aristotle mentioned it in his works in ancient Greece. The great orator of Roman times, Cicero, is actually responsible for the word property being transferred down to us today. One only has to think of John Locke and his “Two Treatises of Government” and his important discussion of private property rights there, or John Stuart Mill, or even the great American philosophers in the American revolution.

I would like to quote another thinker. Earlier today I was referring to a saint, so I would actually like to employ the words of another saint. These are very good quotes because they have a sort of sanctified presence about them. I would like to quote the patron saint of politicians, St. Thomas More. He linked the foundation and endurance of a civilized community with the proper respect for property, saying “Security of property is the first and all-essential duty of a civilized community”.

In relation to property and the proper limits of governance, St. Thomas More warned that the worst which can happen to the law itself is its overextension, its expansion into fields in which it cannot be competent. What happens then is that disrespect for law in all its capacities will increase.

He stated that:

You may to a certain extent control property and make it subservient to the ideal nature of man; but the moment you deny its rights, or undertake to legislate in defiance of them, you may for a time unsettle the very foundations of society, you will certainly in the end render property your despot instead of your servant, and so produce a materialized and debased civilization.

I should bring this debate back from this abstract discussion and finish in terms of the practical effects of the bill. However, I hope that all parliamentarians would consider the general nature and profound importance of property rights and the need for this legislation to properly respect the property rights of individual landowners. It can do so in specific ways, first, by working with private landowners on a voluntary basis, and second, by clearly indicating in the bill full and fair compensation provisions for those who incur increased costs or reduced income as a result of the requirements of the bill.

I also encourage my fellow parliamentarians to consider carefully the notion of property rights and the limits of government in general.