Debates of March 19th, 2001

Supply

[John Finlay, Liberal, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the hon. member's question. Even today there are cases similar to the ones he is talking about.

The recourse in many cases has been the courts. I presume he may be suggesting that the department should stand behind the things first nations do, but that would completely destroy what we are trying to do. It would destroy the responsibility of first nations to deal with such things.

If the hon. member wishes to provide me with some details then I could get him a reasonable answer. I know there are cases where this sort of thing has been dealt with through the courts and people have been recompensed. In some cases, the case goes the other way and the courts find that the builder or contractor from outside the reserve has not fulfilled the requirements of the contract. As I think the member would agree it could go either way. We cannot always be sure the builder employed will do the job properly.

[Werner Schmidt, Canadian Alliance, Kelowna, BC]

Mr. Speaker, does the hon. parliamentary secretary to the minister know, as he should know, whether the practice by Indian bands of issuing cheques, welfare cheques in particular, to natives who live off the reserve has stopped or whether it still continues?

I believe the auditor told the bands to stop issuing cheques to natives who live off Indian reserves. Could he tell me whether that practice has stopped?

[John Finlay, Liberal, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would love to be able to say that I am aware of this situation and that I know for a fact it has stopped, but I am afraid I have to tell my hon. friend I am not. I will make myself aware of the surrounding facts.

[Richard Marceau, Bloc, Charlesbourg—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today on behalf of the Bloc Quebecois to speak to the motion as unanimously amended by the House.

Every year parliament approves more than $4 billion in funding for the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development for a broad range of programs and services in aboriginal communities. This money is intended for such things as capital investment, primary and secondary education, social services, housing, health services and economic development projects. These services and programs are, in most cases, administered directly by first nations.

In his April 1999 report, the auditor general indicated that allegations of improper financial administration had been made to the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. In fact many people are concerned about the effectiveness of the existing standards for first nations accountability vis-à-vis federal funding.

Following allegations of financial mismanagement on certain reserves, some politicians urged the federal government to put in place more transparent financial agreements with first nations and to improve accountability mechanisms with respect to aboriginal communities' use of federal funds.

Despite the controversy, the extent of the financial difficulties of first nations communities is not really known. In his 1999 report, the auditor general said that approximately one-third of the 630 first nations communities were experiencing some degree of financial difficulty. The Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development indicated that the majority of aboriginal communities were managing their finances well and that only a few, 4%, were being managed by a third party because of serious financial problems.

Politically, however, the requirement that first nations communities be financially accountable to their members seems to be generating increasing controversy. Two general concerns are emerging: first, to whom are first nations accountable, and, second, are the existing accountability standards good enough?

The Bloc Quebecois recognizes that accountability is an essential component of sound management. All administrative bodies must ultimately be responsible and accountable to those whom they represent. In other words, they must be accountable for their decisions.

Aboriginal peoples have a responsibility to their members to use all the funds allocated to them by the department of Indian affairs in the most effective and efficient manner. Similarly, the department must be able to show Canadians, through the minister and the Auditor General of Canada, that all the funds allocated to aboriginal communities are used properly while allowing them to achieve strategically targeted objectives.

In the past, specific programs defined by the federal government were funded for a relatively short period, often on an annual basis. Because of the uncertainty surrounding the annual levels of funding of these programs, it was difficult for aboriginals to establish long term community development programs and to gradually build their infrastructures. That uncertainty also had the effect of restricting the ability of aboriginal people to strategically pool their resources and concentrate them in important areas such as the creation of long term jobs because resources were strictly allocated to a series of patchwork and separate programs.

More recently, financial transfer agreements have provided greater flexibility to aboriginal people, allowing them to manage their own affairs, including when it comes to setting their own priorities.

This transfer of responsibilities to the aboriginal communities must not, however, mean that the government abdicates its responsibilities. It is still the responsibility of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development to ensure that the programs it finances produce the planned results, with commitment of the appropriate funds.

It is true that there is considerable risk of failure when complex programs are transferred to communities that have had decades of total dependency on the federal government. That is why the federal government and the aboriginal people must share responsibility for the effective administration of transferred programs.

The auditor general has stated in his report that the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development had not put enough effort into helping native communities prepare to administer transferred programs. He said repeatedly that the department must be answerable to parliament and to the public, like all other federal institutions.

Regardless of program transfer, the department still has a duty to account for the way federal funds are being used and to ensure that acceptable results are obtained. Through its fiduciary obligations, the government must retain the ability to audit aboriginal financial statements and provide tools for correcting situations of mismanagement. This control by the federal government is essential.

In several of the auditor general's reports during the 1990s comments were made on the aboriginal peoples' obligation to be accountable for the public funds received. The 1990 report indicated that the department's funding mechanisms did not include a satisfactory reporting method.

This had significant ramifications, in particular making it impossible to know with any certainty whether funds had been spent for the intended purpose, were likely to attain the expected results and had been spent as efficiently as possible. In his November 1996 report, the auditor general pointed out ongoing shortcomings relating to the implementation of funding agreements.

In this report, the auditor general pointed out that the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs had a number of options at its disposal to encourage first nations to meet the standards agreed on, including the inclusion of specific terms in modes of funding, periodic and official supervision of financial performance and program implementation, the use of critical threshold indicators and the implementation of remedial action plans as a consequence. He added that these measures were useful but that it was not always apparent they had been successfully implemented.

In response to this report by the auditor general, the department of Indian affairs adopted three principles in 1996 with respect to accountability. They involved transparency, disclosure and corrective measures. In addition, it decided it would strengthen the band councils' requirement to be accountable to their community.

That year, the department even wrote to the chiefs and band councils to have those receiving federal funds examine their accounting and management systems and develop a plan of action to correct discrepancies. It also informed first nations that these systems would have to be evaluated in the future in the case of all funding agreements.

In his follow up report of 1999, the auditor general looked primarily at the way the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs had implemented his 1996 recommendations.

The report included the following points, among others. The department of Indian affairs was to establish a better relationship between the level of flexibility of the modes of funding and the desire and ability of the first nations to assume responsibility for the billions of dollars the department paid out to them every year. The Department of Indian and Northern Affairs failed to take the appropriate measures to ensure proper resolution of allegations of impropriety and complaints and disputes concerning the modes of funding. Corrective measures—resolution mechanisms—had to be improved as elements of reporting.

In response to the recommendations made by the auditor general in his 1999 report, departmental officials informed the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development that a national data-bank had been established to collect complaints of inappropriate conduct and examine any emerging tendency in that regard. In addition to this national register, each regional office of the department now has access to a co-ordinator responsible for allegations and complaints. Moreover, a national co-ordinator develops standards, policies and guidelines on appropriate corrective measures.

On May 15, 2000, in response to requests by politicians and members of the public demanding the disclosure of more financial information, the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development wrote to the first nations to require that audits include the salaries, fees and travelling expenses of elected officials and leaders. Any first nation not complying with these requirements would stop getting discretionary funds and funds earmarked for non-essential services.

At one time, the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development was directly managing the delivery of these numerous programs in aboriginal communities. Later on, in order to break the cycle of dependence of aboriginal communities on the federal government, the latter began to sign financial agreements with the communities. These agreements were very specific and detailed as to what had to be done, how and what expenses were eligible for refund.

In 1983 the Special Committee on Indian Self-Government released its report, known as the Penner report. In that report, the committee severely criticized the financial agreements for leaving very little decision making power to the first nations to apply programs and funds according to their specific capabilities and needs. It was suggested that agreements be signed, which would have more to do with what had to be done than with how it should be done.

Over the years, funding arrangements have evolved to take into account the relationship that exists between the Government of Canada and aboriginal peoples. One of the major features of that relationship is the government's official policy announced in 1995 recognizing the inherent right to self-government, a right that had long been claimed by aboriginal peoples.

In response to the 1996 report of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, in the document entitled “Gathering Strength—Canada's Aboriginal Action Plan”, also undertook to implement a new financial relationship with aboriginal peoples and to develop stable funding mechanisms which would encourage the accountability and self-sufficiency of aboriginal communities.

Now, contribution agreements are the primary mechanism through which first nations receive funding. These agreements set out spending conditions, including standards of service to communities, and accountability and performance objectives.

At the present time, first nations are managing 85% of the program budget of Department of Indian and Northern Affairs directly. The department is responsible for the nature, type and enforcement of funding mechanisms. It is therefore responsible for demonstrating to parliamentarians and to the aboriginal peoples who receive the funding that the most appropriate funding mechanisms have been used.

The Bloc Quebecois understands that self-government consists in giving aboriginal peoples authority for managing their own affairs, and making them accountable accordingly. We have absolutely no interest in covering up aboriginal mismanagement, but first nations must be given the opportunity and the means to attain a reasonable level of effectiveness.

The Bloc Quebecois is also aware of the existing shortcomings in accountability. However, the Bloc Quebecois feels that the solution to these problems lies not in requiring separate accountability for aboriginal communities, as the Canadian Alliance called for at the very beginning of the debate, but in establishing a better link between the degree of flexibility necessary in funding mechanisms and the desire and ability of aboriginal peoples to assume responsibility for government funding.

What we are proposing is that the federal government implement all the recommendations made by the Auditor General of Canada; that it improve the management and follow up of financial transfers, and that it develop guidelines for the management of these programs in consultation with aboriginal peoples. Finally, we suggest that the government and the various first nations in Canada to give serious thought to the creation of a position of auditor general for first nations.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to stand today and join the debate on this opposition day motion dealing with the transfer of funds and the fiscal relationship between the federal government and aboriginal communities.

Frankly, I cringe when the Canadian Alliance Party raises aboriginal affairs issues. I am always kind of apprehensive and nervous as to what the real motivation is and why it would choose this particular issue for their opposition day motion.

My apprehension is well founded when we look at the history of some of the positions taken by that party on aboriginal affairs and aboriginal issues. The first that comes to mind, of course, is the ratification of the historic Nisga'a treaty. I should probably thank the Alliance for all the stubborn obstinacy that it showed during the ratification of the Nisga'a treaty because it gave me the satisfaction of one of the most gratifying moments that I have had in the House of Commons, and that was being able to stand up 473 times on behalf of aboriginal people, on behalf of self-government, and on behalf of the emancipation of aboriginal people. I found that personally very gratifying . I still have the T-shirt that says “Nisga'a 473: Reform Party 0”. I also find it very satisfying when I wear that T-shirt to the gym.

My apprehension is well founded when we look at some of the comments of former aboriginal affairs critics in the Reform Party and Canadian Alliance Party.

[Maurice Vellacott, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I think our NDP colleague is way off the mark here and he should get on the topic to help native people instead of this rant that he is into. He is becoming like a member of the opposition in terms of his tactics at this point. Could we get him back on topic?

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The point is well taken and we also anticipate that at some point the hon. member for Winnipeg Centre will tie up everything to the subject at hand.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, that is certainly my intention. I have a 20 minute speech and I would like to set the basis for the tone and content of my remarks by giving a bit of recent history as to why I am apprehensive about this particular motion and the motivation of the Canadian Alliance in introducing the motion.

It is a matter of record. It is a matter of Hansard , when we look back at the remarks of previous aboriginal affairs critics in the Reform Party, like Mr. Herb Grubel, former adviser to fascist dictator Augusto Pinochet and currently a member of the board of directors of the Fraser Institute. In his comments, Herb Grubel likened living on an aboriginal reserve to living on a south sea island and being supported by a rich uncle. That indicates a real sensitivity to the issues facing the aboriginal people. That is why, frankly, I would argue that the Alliance Party does not have any credibility when it speaks on aboriginal issues.

It goes further. The person who sat on the cross country advisory committee on aboriginal issues when the Reform Party took a touring task force around the country was Mel Smith, the author of Our Home or Native Land , the famous book that is a sort of diatribe against any kind of self-government or land claim settlements. In fact, it called for the reversal of land claim issues settled across the country.

Tom Flanagan, associated for a long time with the Reform Party as a senior advisor, wrote a well known piece called “Why Don't Indians Drive Taxis?” His argument was that all other new Canadians who come here and start at the bottom of the economic totem pole start by driving taxies so why do Indians not drive taxis? The basic premise of his argument was that they expect handouts. He said that they would rather have handouts than drive taxis.

It really shows a sensitivity to the economic development issues that aboriginal people face when senior people in the Reform Party talk about aboriginal issues in that way.

The most compelling example I can give is Greg Hollingsworth, former Reform Party staffer here in Ottawa on the Hill. I frankly do not think this was how it transpired, but they say that he quit his job to go and set up BC F.I.R.E. in British Columbia. BC F.I.R.E. is the anti-Indian movement in British Columbia. It is called Foundation for Individual Rights and Equality. It is a horrible, hateful group of people who are dedicated solely to keeping aboriginal issues and people down.

When I say that I do not believe frankly that Greg Hollingsworth quit his job, I think he was sent there by the Reform Party. I will go further than that. I think the Canadian Alliance—

[Maurice Vellacott, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I think you have it within your power to ask the member to get to the point of his question. Is he concerned about native people and the motion before us or does he want to go on to something irrelevant from past history? Does he have a concern for native people? I think he would want to circumscribe his speech today to that issue, to help native—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Your point is well taken. The hon. member for Winnipeg Centre will certainly make a big effort to tie what he has just said to the motion we are debating today.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Absolutely, Mr. Speaker. I would be happy to limit my remarks to the motion we have before us today.

I started out by saying that I believe, and I do not think it is an exaggeration to say, that the Canadian Alliance is the legislative wing, the political voice, of the anti-Indian movement in Canada. That is why I question its motivation and its true intentions every time it raises aboriginal issues.

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The hon. member may well castigate groups or political parties as a whole but when he attacks me personally, as he just did in terms of where we stand with respect to natives and helping first nations people, I would ask you, Mr. Speaker, to bring the member to order.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Your point has been heard. I would ask the hon. member for Winnipeg Centre to ease up on the tone of his intervention.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Certainly, Mr. Speaker, I would be happy to do that. In the interest of keeping an elevated standard of debate in the House, I will take those remarks to hand.

One thing we have noted is that the Canadian Alliance approach to aboriginal issues, in recent months at least, has been to seize on isolated incidents of misuse of funds or mismanagement of funds. The Alliance comments over and over again on isolated incidents across the country and then tries to thread them together into an overall theme that there is gross mismanagement of funds in virtually all aboriginal communities.

That is the message, whether deliberate or not, that is getting out to the public. The Canadian Alliance says that aboriginal communities are corrupt, ergo they do not deserve self-government and we should not proceed any further with land claim settlements. That is the theme that comes across to the Canadian people, whether real or perceived.

I guess the same thing could be said about my comments because I am threading together isolated incidents of Alliance Party members saying horrible, hateful things. I have come to a broad conclusion that it is in fact party policy, not just isolated incidents.

I point out that the member for Athabasca said that of course we defeated them, and that just because we did not kill them in Indian wars does not mean they are not a vanquished people. Otherwise, he asked, why would they accept being driven into those godforsaken little remote reserves? That was the attitude of the member for Athabasca who is still sitting in the House.

I have been here longer than the hon. member for Provencher and I have heard some horrifying attitudes expressed toward aboriginal people.

The Canadian Alliance launched an out and out campaign to aggressively stop what I believe is the most historic treaty of our time, the Nisga'a land claim treaty, which was ratified in the House of Commons. It was a very proud moment for all of us. The Alliance launched an out and out campaign to stop and to block that group of people from taking their first courageous steps toward independence and self-government. It is opposed to aboriginal self-government.

The NDP is in favour of the implementation of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples. The Canadian Alliance Party is not. That is why I think I am justified in questioning the motivation of that group when it raises aboriginal affairs issues in the House.

I am very happy to speak to the motion. It is a lot more difficult to speak to the motion now that it is so watered down and innocuous. If the Canadian Alliance is harbouring some sort of resentment about land claims and self-government, it should at least have the guts to put forward a motion that actually says that so we can have an honest debate in the House.

We now have a watered down motion that calls for the status quo. The reason the Alliance got the Liberal Party to agree to vote in favour of the motion is that it is easy for the Liberals. They are already doing that. The motion put forward originally by the Alliance insinuated that there was no auditing or accountability in aboriginal communities and that therefore we needed to impose a requirement for auditing.

In actual fact, the Indian Act and the Indian Bands Revenue Moneys Regulation already calls for that. Articles 8.(1), 8.(2) and 8.(2)(a) state:

8.(1) Every Band shall engage an auditor to audit its account and to render an annual report in respect thereof.

(2) A copy of the annual auditor's report shall, within 7 days of its completion,

(a) be posted in conspicuous places on the Band Reserve for the examination of all members of the Band;

If that is not a requirement to have an independent audit and to publish the findings of the audit, I do not know what is. Frankly, all the Alliance is calling for is what we already enjoy.

I object to one thing in the remarks of the Canadian Alliance member in introducing the motion. I will need to check the Hansard for the actual words, but he implied that the Alliance has the support of the grand chief of the Assembly of First Nations for the motion. I found that very hard to believe, given the offensive stance toward aboriginal issues that the Canadian Alliance has demonstrated since it has been in parliament. I doubt it very much that the grand chief of the Assembly of First Nations would endorse a motion put forward by that party because, frankly, that individual, more than anyone, would have serious reservations about the motivation of that party.

I called the national grand chief of the Assembly of First Nations, Matthew Coon Come. His executive assistant just got back to me five minutes ago. Not only did the Assembly of First Nations never endorse the motion, it was never contacted about the motion. It was never called.

The Alliance Party has started this whole debate with dishonesty. That also leads me to believe that there is more here than meets the eye. The real motivation of the Alliance Party is to do everything it can to foster animosity toward the self-government process because it personally is opposed.

There is no party in the country that has bastardized the word equal more than the Alliance Party. I am very proud that just last week an aboriginal judge in the province of Manitoba, Murray Sinclair, moved up to the Court of Queen's Bench. Murray Sinclair, in the aboriginal justice inquiry, deals with this very issue. He says:

—the application of uniform standards, common rules and treatment of people who are not the same constitutes a form of discrimination. It means that in treating unlike people alike, adverse consequences, hardships or injustice may result.

In other words, we cannot treat all people equally if in fact they are unequal at the beginning. After we have met the basic needs of people and established a common denominator, then rules can be applied equally.

That is a very wise statement and I am proud to be able to raise it in the House of Commons today. Equal rights for all is in fact unfair when dealing with people who are held back in a systemic way, as is the case with many aboriginal people.

I come from Manitoba, where we have perhaps more firsthand and recent knowledge in trying to renew the relationship with aboriginal people than do many of the members here from other provinces.

I am not proud to say it, but my province was the home of J.J. Harper. If that name has not been raised in the House of Commons before it certainly should have. If it had been me walking home late one night instead of J.J. Harper, I might have been pulled over by the police and asked questions. However I probably would not have died that night. J.J. Harper did. He was killed. That was one of the incidents that spurred the aboriginal justice inquiry, which was probably the most comprehensive review of the hugely disproportionate representation of aboriginal people in Canada's criminal justice system.

My province was also home to Helen Betty Osborne, a 16 year old girl in The Pas, Manitoba who was killed. I can assure hon. members that if it had been my 16 year old daughter walking home that night kid, she probably would not have been seen as a target by four redneck hillbillies who would sexually assault and murder her. After the murder of Helen Betty Osborne, the whole town took part in a 16 year conspiracy of silence to shield the actions of those people. We in Manitoba have firsthand knowledge and very real examples from which to draw.

One of the things that came up during the aboriginal justice inquiry was the hugely disproportionate representation of aboriginal people in our prisons, never mind the ones caught up in the criminal justice system. It came to light that, at periods of time during the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s in two women's prisons in Canada, the percentage of the population that was aboriginal was 100%. That was all of them. It was as if we were trying to lock up a generation of young aboriginal people as some supposed fix to the terrible situation they were in.

It is galling for me to watch a group of people who are not as far evolved in their thinking about the new relationship that is necessary with aboriginal people. It is frustrating to see a group of people from provinces not far from mine who are so politically naive when it comes to the new relationship that is necessary with aboriginal people.

There was a poem spray-painted on a wall near my office in downtown Winnipeg for many years. It has now been erased. A street poet wrote it and one of the lines in it said “Racism is ignorance masturbating”. It was the sort of thing that would catch one's attention. However, when we think about it, racism is, by its very nature, born out of ignorance. As soon as people learn more about other cultures they are no longer threatened by them and they are less racist. We see that gradual maturing process happening in every neighbourhood and community across the country. The more we know about other people, the more we realize that they love their children as much as we love ours and that we have more in common than we do that is separate.

Masturbating is, by its very nature, a solitary act. It is not very gratifying and it certainly is not productive in any way, shape or form. Neither is racism. Racism feeds on itself and it does not benefit anyone. That comes from the very solitary nature of it.

Canadian Alliance members do not consult and they do not learn from other people. They do not phone the Assembly of First Nations when they say they do. We know that much as evidenced today. There is a terrible dishonesty in their approach.

I have already pointed out that the motion we are dealing with today is really the status quo, is it not?

I have tried to point out some of my reservations about following the Canadian Alliance's lead on anything to do with any aboriginal issue ever, because I know who its members are. I have been here long enough to hear their spokespeople and to understand what really drives and motivates them. I will say again, I believe the Canadian Alliance is the legislative arm of the anti-Indian movement in Canada. I have never seen anything to dissuade me or move me off that opinion.

Today's motion is so harmless and so innocuous that we do see fit to vote in favour of it. Everyone is for public accountability and public financing.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the hon. member's comments. I believe governance and accountability are apple pie issues. We need transparency and accountability.

However, when we go under the surface, that is the root of what is not being said here today. It is about self-government, about respecting cultures and about having existing aboriginal rights under section 35 of the Constitution Act. That is something that this side of the House believes in dearly.

I believe the NDP also has similar values and goals for the aboriginal nations in Canada. I would like to explore those values and goals with the member. Does he believe that the members of the official opposition have the same goals of strengthening and renewing the partnerships with Canada's aboriginal peoples? Do they want to help strengthen aboriginal governance? Do they it want to develop newer fiscal relationships and build strong communities, peoples and economies?

Looking back to my time as chair of the aboriginal committee in the last parliament, I particularly remember the time when we dealt with the Nisga'a treaty. During the final vote in committee there were no dissenting votes. The bill was passed by all parties, including the opposition. When the bill came back to the House, the official opposition put forward 467 or so amendments. That is why I find this motion to be innocuous. It is different from what is underlying that same position. I would like the member's comments on this area.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the NDP caucus, I believe, is very much in favour of renewing the fiscal relationship with aboriginal communities. The hon. member was alluding to legislation we anticipate coming down the pike fairly soon that will revisit the fiscal relationship between the federal government and aboriginal communities.

We believe that what really needs to be done, instead of just lobbing potshots at isolated incidents of mismanagement, is to develop the administrative capacity of first nations communities so that accountability can become as mainstream in their administration of offices as it is elsewhere.

I should point out that 95% of all audits done on aboriginal communities come up squeaky clean. I do not know if the current government can make a claim like that with all its programs. Certainly the business community is not held to that high a standard.

In a sense, we are watching the Canadian Alliance take these isolated incidents and trying to thread them together into an overall case that all aboriginal communities are poorly run or mismanaged in some way.

One thing that is heartening, which I learned about recently, is that the Certified General Accountants Association of Canada and the Assembly of First Nations have started a national round table and a mentoring program to give special national certification to aboriginal auditors so that within the communities there will be well trained aboriginal people to ensure that the books are kept to acceptable best practices of accounting.

[Reed Elley, Canadian Alliance, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I feel very sad in having to rise to ask the member a question and to make a comment on what he said. He has impugned my integrity in the House by attributing comments to me.

If he goes back and reads Hansard he will realize that his statement is completely inaccurate. I never said that I had phoned Matthew Coon Come or that I ever had his support for the motion. He is reading something into what I said. I think it is despicable of him to bring that kind of thing to the debate when there are such serious problems regarding aboriginal people across the country. He is still engaged in the old line debate on partisan politics: who is doing what and who is getting political points. I have no interest in that.

If the member's party is so intent on helping aboriginal people, why has his colleague, the member of parliament for Churchill where the Virginia Fontaine Centre is situated and which has developed into such a national scandal of aboriginal accountability vis-à-vis the government, not once stood in the House and brought public attention to the plight of the people in that riding who now have no hospital treatment centre and no school because of accountability issues? Why?

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, once again the member is fundamentally wrong. In actual fact the member for Churchill did stand and ask the government questions concerning the money that kept flowing to the Virginia Fontaine Centre even after it was clear that something was wrong. The member for Churchill asked that question but got an answer that was not very satisfactory.

However, the main thrust of her question was very different from the potshots thrown by members of the Canadian Alliance. She asked if it was true that the money could have been used to benefit so many more people. Rather than spending $36 million on one treatment centre, which is a lot of money, a general hospital could have been built. The government could have helped a lot of people who are suffering the consequences of chronic long term poverty, one of which is substance abuse, which was what the Fontaine Centre was dedicated to addressing.

What the hon. member does not know, because I do not believe he is well briefed on aboriginal affairs issues, is that the Assembly of First Nations' fiscal relations secretariat is taking many of the steps that his party is advocating, and has been since 1996. I do not think members opposite even read their own briefing notes. All they are trying to do is whip up some kind of an anti-Indian hysteria in the country so that they can join the BC F.I.R.E. movement and the anti-Indian movement to stop land claims and stop treaty processes.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

I must say, Mr. Speaker, that I felt the speech by the member for Winnipeg Centre was one of the more ugly speeches that I have heard in my time here. I did not enjoy the slinging of tar that went on here.

I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that I know many members of the Canadian Alliance, the former Reform Party, and while I may disagree very vehemently with them on some issues, including aboriginal issues, every one of them, as far as I know, have acted and argued with the best motivation.

The real reason I am standing is that the member for Winnipeg Centre attacked a member who is not in the House, Herb Grubel, who was a member of the Reform Party. He was one of the finest MPs in the House, even though he sat in the opposition.

What I have to say is that if we throw tar in a small room, it is bound to splash back on ourselves. I do not think the member for Winnipeg Centre will gain many points at home.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I do not feel the need to apologize for my remarks. I found that some of the remarks made in Hansard by Herb Grubel, a former member of parliament whose name we can use because he no longer sits here, were offensive. I could not believe people harboured those kinds of attitudes toward aboriginal people, especially a person representing a major Canadian political party.

I do not apologize for raising that in the House. I think it helped to set the base tone of the debate. All of us, even if we reluctantly hold our nose and vote in favour of the motion, being the innocuous thing that it is, are very suspect about the motivation of the Canadian Alliance every time it raises aboriginal issues.

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Cumberland—Colchester.

I would like to have the debate on our part finished by question period so I may take a little less than my 10 minutes for my questions and comments and then turn it over to the member for Cumberland—Colchester.

I would like to say that this file originally was held by a very capable colleague of mine from the South Shore. It has been passed to me and I will speak to it with pleasure. I feel very strongly that this is an issue that must be a precedence of not only the government but certainly the opposition with respect to our first nations and the issues that face them today.

Getting up between the member for Winnipeg Centre and the Alliance Party, I will act as a bit of a mediator, which is common for the Progressive Conservative Party. In fact we are attempting to be the mediator of all opposition parties in concert against the government.

I know some harsh words have been said by the NDP to the Alliance. It is no secret that hypocrisy sometimes sits on the Alliance benches. Obviously the member for the NDP felt it was necessary to bring those issues forward. However, I sincerely believe that it is best to speak to the motion and the issue put forward today and hopefully we can resolve some of the very serious problems that face our first nations.

As the representative for Brandon—Souris, I have the pleasure of having two reserves in my constituency and have had the opportunity to work with those bands in the past. I will be making some comments with respect to both of them over the course of my speech.

However, I certainly take some exception to the comments made by the government House leader when he spoke to the motion. I got the impression that everything was just hunky-dory, that there were no problems and no issues. He said that 98% of the audits have been in place and put forward, and that only 4% of the reserves now in existence have third party management systems. Third party management is the last resort of any type of management within first nations. Having 4% under third party management is quite excessive. This issue has to be addressed by the government.

I would suggest that not everything is fine on first nations reserves. There is a very large unemployment ratio compared to the rest of society. We recognize that there is a housing crisis, that there are social ills and social problems and that there are problems with the infrastructure programs that have been put in place.

The House leader would have us think that the issue today is not about accountability and audit, and that we should not be dealing with social issues. That is not true. Quite frankly, financial administration and financial management, if properly put in place on first nations reserves, would allow the reserves to have less unemployment, more housing, better social services provided to them through the band offices and infrastructure programs put in place that would allow for water treatment and sewers to be put into place, along with recreation facilities. It is all one ball of wax.

The hon. House leader cannot stand up and say that the motion is insignificant when dealing with those other social concerns because it is not. They are all put together.

The motion is quite simple. It calls for accountability. It wants the assurance that audits will be put forward so the bands will be responsible for the expenditures of capital, public funds, going into a reserve. I could not agree more.

The member for Winnipeg Centre said that there were a few examples of this and that we should use those examples because the majority do not happen. That is not true. Those examples happen more and more often, but I will let my hon. colleague from Nova Scotia speak to a couple of those.

I can tell the House that in my own constituency there are substantially well managed reserves. Sioux Valley is absolutely phenomenal. The administration, the management, the chief and the council are there for the right reasons. They are there for all members of the band. The Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development just signed an historic treaty with that reserve which put forward the parameters for self-government. That is one positive example of what all first nations should be trying to attain.

The other is a negative example. As one member suggested, certain reserves do not have the financial wherewithal and viability to pay their bills. That is the case with one of the reserves in my constituency where tradespeople have gone in to do work and have not been paid and will not do further work there. That affects the whole reserve, the whole population of that reserve.

Those examples are out there. What the motion is simply saying is be accountable. We must ensure the chief, the council and the administration of a reserve and band office are accountable to the people and to Canada. If it is public money, I do not think anyone here would disagree that it should be transparent. They should be accountable to the public purse from which they receive their funding.

I say on behalf of the PC Party that we will be supporting the motion as it has been put forward. We support the measures to improve accountability and transparency for first nations. The measures should help improve the self-reliance and self-dependence of first nations if their financial management is controlled, regulated and available to band members.

I also suggest that accountability to band members falls to the chief and to the elected band council. Such accountability is extremely important in order to have good management in the band itself.

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to participate in the debate. I did not have a lot to do with aboriginals or native issues until I was elected a member of parliament and then I became very much involved with them. It has been one of the more interesting and fruitful aspects of my political career since 1988, off and on.

There is no question about the motion. It talks about taxpayer dollars having to be accountable. People who receive taxpayer dollars, whether natives or non-natives, owe it to taxpayers to provide information on where the money is going.

Recently I was involved with a non-native organization that took over a wharf in a placed called Digby, Nova Scotia. It got a cheque of over $3 million from the federal Department of Transport. When we asked the organization where the taxpayer dollars went, the reply was that they were not taxpayer dollars once it got the cheque. I certainly disagree with the philosophy and approach taken by Maritime Harbours Society in Digby. That is what this is all about.

We need an open process. We need transparency when it comes to taxpayer dollars. After all, a lot of aboriginals and natives are taxpayers and they want accountability too. A lot of the questions raised in this great debate have come from aboriginals who see from within what the problems are in a particular band or group. They are perhaps in the best position to know when there is a problem and to blow the whistle. In some cases they have done that.

The hon. member for Brandon—Souris mentioned earlier that I might bring up an issue in Nova Scotia. Recently the Eskasoni first nation was questioned when it was revealed that the chief collected more than $400,000 tax free and got in excess of $293,000 in honorariums, a great big Christmas bonus, $67,000 in travel expenses, $12,000 for automobile reimbursement and so on. Meanwhile people on the reserve go without housing and even food.

The natives in that case brought it to the attention of the government. The government stepped in appropriately, demanded accountability and changed the rules at Eskasoni. It is now trying to establish a new plan for the future, a new business plan for the operation of the whole reserve. It will involve accountability for government dollars, as it should have done in the beginning.

As I mentioned earlier, my first experience with native issues was with the Millbrook band in my riding. One of the first things I did as a member of parliament in 1988 was visit with the chief. He and I went from house to house all through the community. People needed a great deal of help and were obviously not getting it. The housing situation was the most obvious shortcoming.

Chief Lawrence Paul was the chief in 1988 and, I believe, is still the chief. I believe he has been elected 11 times in a row. He has taken great steps to improve the lifestyle and living standard of members of his band. Perhaps the most important thing he did was make a deal with the province of Nova Scotia on gaming arrangements. He was able to set up a small gaming facility on his reserve with access to the non-native community. It has been very successful. He has raised some money and has given the money back to his constituents.

Chief Paul has been very aggressive in establishing a shopping centre. The reserve is split by the Trans-Canada Highway, so he has great exposure to the Trans-Canada Highway between Truro and Halifax. He has established a power centre. Three or four first class businesses have been established to serve the native and non-native communities.

Another issue he has been very aggressive in is the native fishery. He has established the Millbrook fishery and is training his members to become fishermen. He is helping them to establish facilities at wharves and to have the proper boats and equipment, and especially the proper training, to operate safely.

As a result, it is a success story. It is not all success, but very seldom is any operation perfect. It probably is not perfect, but I have seen a great difference in the standard of living of the people of Millbrook Band, and I take my hat off to Lawrence Paul. He ruffles feathers quite often. He is very outspoken but has done a good job for his people. I do not know what more one could ask.

As a result of those efforts, the operations turn back cash to every member of the band every year. Every band member receives a cash rebate from the resources of the successful businesses that have started up. In addition, the band has established an education fund and a health care fund for every person in the band. That has gone a long way to alleviate the problems of the band and it bodes well for the future. It gets better and better, and Chief Paul is more successful and aggressive as he goes. I think it will be a wonderful change for the members of the Millbrook Band.

We support the motion. We obviously and certainly support accountability for every cent of government money. We think that when taxpayer dollars go into a project, they should be accountable and the benefits should go to all the people in a specific band, not just a small group.

[Werner Schmidt, Canadian Alliance, Kelowna, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I commend my hon. colleague who just spoke in favour of the motion. There is a very real need on the part of government, Indian bands and all people in Canada to recognize that one of the most important things to develop in parliamentarians and in people governing at the municipal or band council levels is integrity, honesty, truth, openness and transparency.

The hon. member just illustrated exactly how that could work. He made reference to the Millbrook Band, and I commend him for doing so. I wonder whether he could expand on his concerns about the lack of transparency and integrity on the part of certain people in not allowing their books to be opened. There seems to be an assumption that if there are public funds as well as private funds then a band council is only responsible for the public funds. It seems to me that a band council that manages private funds should be accountable for those as well, although perhaps in a different way. I wonder if he would comment on that.

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, he raises a good point. Where there is a mixture of public funds and private funds, it is often hard to say which dollar comes from which source. In that regard, I believe that if there is any linkage at all to federal or provincial government dollars they should be accountable. There is no question about that. The whole purpose of this exercise is that government dollars be accounted for. If there is any linkage at all to them, or any possibility that we are talking about federal dollars as opposed to money generated from the private sector, then they should be accountable.

[Myron Thompson, Canadian Alliance, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I likewise thank the member for supporting the motion that is on the floor today.

Would the member mind sharing a little with regard to some of the reserves in his own riding? One point mentioned by the government was its concern about improving the quality of life of people on the reserves. I want to believe that is something that will come out of this motion.

Having travelled across the country, been into many reserves and seen the deplorable conditions that exist, I wonder how it ever got to be that way. When we have responsible government, how could it possibly happen? In 1999 Canada was named the number one country in which to live. Of course there was an addendum stating that if the reserves were included Canada would be number 38. That is not a mark of which to be proud.

In travelling in my riding and visiting different reserves in Alberta I see terrible, deplorable conditions and little effort. I also notice that in New Brunswick there is one nation, the Big Cove first nation, with 2,200 people who are $8 million in debt.

Would the member mind talking about the conditions as he sees them when he tours his reserves? Does he see what I see?