Debates of March 19th, 2001

Privilege

[The Speaker]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Speaker]

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of the motion and of the amendment.

Supply

[Betty Hinton, Canadian Alliance, Kamloops, Thompson And Highland Valleys, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I rise in the House today to give my maiden speech. What makes this such an important occasion for me is that my speech will centre around an issue that is of paramount importance to the people of my riding of Kamloops, Thompson and Highland Valleys.

My riding is home to several native bands and, like the rest of British Columbia, is subject to many overlapping land claims which cover every city, town, village, ranch and ski hill in the area. Since my appointment as deputy critic of Indian and northern affairs, I have been contacted by numerous native people and non-native people regarding accountability.

Canada's Indian affairs policy is not working. Forty per cent of natives on reserves receive social assistance. Fifty per cent of native children live in poverty. The infant mortality rate for native children is double that for other children. Alcoholism, suicide and crime rates are three times higher than for non-natives. On average, on reserve native men can expect to live 12.5 years less than the average Canadian male.

In total, the federal government has spent more than $90 billion on native programs since 1969. This year, spending works out to about $20,000 for every on reserve man, woman and child. This money does not get to those who really need it. The government simply transfers most of that money, approximately $7 billion this year, to band governments. Misuse and waste of public funds are common and rampant in the government. HRDC remains a blatant example of that and it is not alone. There are constant indications that much of the money distributed by the Indian Affairs department is being misused.

In 1996, DIAND officials conservatively estimated that 20% was wasted and spent without proper documentation. Dollar-wise that works out to roughly $100 million for non-compliance. A 1996 report by the auditor general confirms some of these findings. The report stated:

Reports do not generally include information on outcomes. There is inadequate evidence of ongoing department verification. Information on accountability is incomplete. There is evidence of substantial implementation failure.

Many band governments do carry out their financial affairs very well, but it is clear many do not. There are about 630 bands in Canada. One-quarter of them, 25%, are under remedial management. In layman's terms, 25% of the native bands in Canada cannot manage their financial affairs and the department has had to step in to make sure that the bills get paid.

None of this should come as news to the government. Grassroots natives themselves have repeatedly complained about this legacy of waste and mismanagement. We are never more than a few days away from newspaper stories documenting blatant examples of waste.

For example, there is the Millbrook Reserve in Nova Scotia. According to the Chronicle Herald of March 29, 1999, band councillors on the Millbrook Reserve gave themselves a $4,000 increase in their honorariums in March 1999. Their salaries totalled $39,000 per year. Chief Lawrence Paul of the Millbrook band was paid $39,000 in honorariums on top of his salary. His salary is unknown. Chief Paul denied allegations that many residents on the reserve were living in meagre conditions in comparison to council members.

Regarding Indian Brook Reserve in Nova Scotia, the Chronicle Herald of August 17, 1999, stated that $1.2 million was spent by the band over five years, yet no one knows what for, since audits reveal it is listed as “miscellaneous” or “other”. The audits also reveal that $122,796 was used from the social services budget to pay the rents of people not eligible for social assistance. Meanwhile, council salaries have risen 135% over five years to $21,300.

The social services department of the band also paid council members $54,307 on top of their salaries. The chief is paid $47,300 plus expenses. Administration salaries have jumped 68% in five years. The debt on the reserve totals $3 million.

The National Post of December 2, 2000, said that in the Sheshatshiu First Nation, Labrador, a community infamous for gas sniffing problems among its children, leaders gave residents nearly $750,000 in gifts and loans in 1999. The community of 1,250 received more than $10 million in federal funding in 1999. Band council members were reported in an audit to have given themselves $100,000 more in honoraria than they were entitled to. Band employees owe the council $140,000. As well, $400,000 of $500,000, or 80%, in loans was estimated in the audit to be unrecoverable.

The National Post of March 15, 1999, said that in the Saulteaux Band, in Saskatchewan, former chief Gabe Gopher's honorarium and travel expenses totalled some $171,000. In 1997 about $600,000 was spent on travel by the chief and band councillors. The band had an accumulated deficit of $1.2 million as of March 31, 1998. Most of the $1.65 million fund for treaty land entitlement purchases was found to have been spent on travel and meetings.

In the Stoney Band in Alberta, 3 chiefs and 12 councillors received $1.4 million in salaries and benefits. Those amounts ranged between $65,000 and $167,000 per year. In 1997 the band had a deficit of $5.6 million. Despite $50 million in oil and gas revenues in 2000, federal transfers total about $23 million per year. A probe into abuse launched by Alberta judge John Reilly resulted in 43 criminal investigations. Only two minor charges were laid in those 43 investigations. The RCMP reported that the problem on the reserve was mismanagement rather than criminal activity. However, Chief John Snow demanded a public apology from Judge Reilly. The total band population was then 3,300 people. The unemployment rate is at 90%.

In the Tla-o-qui-aht Band in B.C., Chief Francis Frank's salary and benefits totalled $109,003 in 1997. He resigned in December of that year. There were only 500 to 600 people on his reserve. An auditor called in to look at the band books was “unable to express an opinion on the financial statements due to inadequate record keeping with revenues and particularly with respect to expenditures and payroll”. Most of the reserve population was unemployed.

The Samson Band in Alberta is one of the more glaring examples of waste and outright corruption. In 1998 the Globe and Mail reported that the chief and 12 councillors earned almost $2 million in salaries and benefits in 1997. Unemployment on this reserve hovers in the 85% range. About 80% of the reserve residents are on welfare. Although this band is oil rich, it is running a deficit in the $50 million range.

These are just a few of the all too many occurrences of waste and mismanagement on some of Canada's native reserves. It would be a mistake to say that it is just about wasting money. It is about people's lives. The money being doled out by the government, which should be used to help improve the lives of native men, women and children, is instead being misused and is making their lives a living hell.

There are television stories and pictures of children sniffing gas out of garbage bags in Davis Inlet and teenagers are committing suicide by jumping off a CBC broadcast tower in Labrador. The United Nations itself reports that many natives live in third world conditions, with a lack of clean water, deplorable housing and unimaginable unemployment. Many chiefs and band councillors live in palaces, have huge, tax-free salaries and fly all over the globe.

To call the government accountable in its handling of the affairs of our native people would be a perversion of logic in every sense. The government has systematically abdicated its responsibility to native people time and time again. Almost 32 years have passed since the following statement was made in the white paper on Indian Policy:

Indian relations with other Canadian peoples began with special treatment by government and society. And special treatment has been the rule since Europeans first settled in Canada. Special treatment has made of the Indians a community disadvantaged and apart. Obviously the course of history must be changed...

The Government of Canada believes that its policies must lead to the full, free and non-discriminatory participation of the Indian people in Canadian society. Such a goal requires a break with the past. It requires that the Indian people's role of dependence be replaced by a role of equal status, opportunity and responsibility, a role they can share with all other Canadians.

That statement was made by our current Prime Minister. That report is gathering dust.

If the government fails today to support this motion, or if it supports the motion and fails to make the changes that have been asked for in it, it will have failed the people of the country, both native and non-native.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, what I heard was a litany of newspaper stories being added up. A lot of that is the exception to the rule. It is like talking about young offenders in society as if they are all young offenders if they are a certain age.

The Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development is the most audited department in the government. Every first nation partner must submit an audit to the department every year. The government uses the audit to look at the financial health of a community. First nations, like other governments, are required to prepare their audits in accordance with the public sector accounting and auditing standards of the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants.

The results of the audits are shared not only with the federal government but with the community. The end result of the audit is a need to look at the community to see whether it needs a management plan to help with its own capacity and capacity building.

First nations conduct standardized community accountability and management assessments in order to help identify for themselves where they require capacity building. In January 2000, 93% of the community assessments were complete and work was proceeding in accordance with the management development themes that had been unearthed.

A speech like the one we just heard lumps together reserves that are getting help, moving along and have a good governance mechanism and training with the assistance of the federal government, with those that are deficient and in the wrong. It is not true and it is not fair.

A perfect example of good governance was the Nisga'a nation last year. They had great governance. We worked on the Nisga'a last year in the House. The Nisga'a is an upstanding community with great capacity. Members still did not support the treaty and voted against it.

Would the hon. member not consider the capacity building and proper accounting methods and methodologies of such bands? Would she not consider all the different organizations that have come to the assistance of first nations so that they can move toward better governance of their own resources? Must we have this litany of the negative?

[Betty Hinton, Canadian Alliance, Kamloops, Thompson And Highland Valleys, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I believe I made it very clear at the beginning of my statement that many bands in Canada are doing a fine job. I pointed out some of the bands that are not doing a fine job. It is the people of the bands for whom I am concerned.

I am not taking my information from newspapers. At the beginning of my speech I made it very clear that when I was appointed deputy critic for Indian affairs I received a deluge of mail. I received e-mails, telephone calls and letters. Any way in which correspondence can be sent, I received it either in this office or in my Kamloops office. I have pictures, photographs and documentation. It does not make for good night time reading. What is happening with native people in some areas of the country is very frightening.

Native people deserve the money that governments send to their bands. It is not getting there right now, and that is the point we are trying to make. Numerous native people have asked for accountability. I support what I said, and I support the motion.

[Philip Mayfield, Canadian Alliance, Cariboo—Chilcotin, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I take the opportunity to congratulate the hon. member for Nanaimo—Cowichan for his foresight and motivation in introducing this motion:

That the government stipulate that in all financial transfer arrangements between the Federal Government and individual Indian Bands...that the use of any public funds be publicly reported and accurately audited.

The motion goes to the heart of a serious problem of government policy, not only toward native groups but to the funding criteria for all departments throughout the government. One could look at the funding of many programs and see glaring weaknesses in the accountability of money transferred from the Government of Canada.

Four times a year the auditor general releases his findings of the financial practices of government departments and reports his findings to parliament. That is accountability and it is what we expect. That is what it means to have public funds used in a transparent and reasonable fashion. That is exactly what the motion addresses. It goes to the heart of financial accountability.

Native bands receive millions of dollars from the government. It has been reported that it is something over $7 billion. Far too often all we hear of is the negative, wasteful spending of Canadian tax dollars. It is true that often money is wasted and misappropriated, but often large amounts of money are put in the hands of those who have no experience and no ability to administer it properly.

Who suffers because of this lack of accountability? It is the most vulnerable, grassroots aboriginals who do not get the basic essentials to live dignified and fulfilling lives. We take for granted clean running water. We take for granted that people will have homes in which to live. We expect an efficient sewage system to safeguard against disease and protect health.

Every remote cabin in British Columbia needs government approval for its sewage system but reserves do not. Unfortunately, and far too often, such basic needs are not met on reserves because the money earmarked for those projects goes somewhere else, is not administered in a completely professional way or is given into the hands of those with no experience. Tragically, far too often it is the weakest of the weak, the children, who suffer the most.

That is why the motion is so important and why we must restore financial accountability to grassroots native people. That is why we must do everything we can as parliamentarians to help people on reserves, especially children, because those children are as much the future of our country as the children of parliamentarians like myself. I have said many times that one of the main reasons I am here is for the future of my country and the future of my children. However it is not only for my own children and grandchildren, it is for the children of Canada.

In April last year, the auditor general reported his audit of the elementary and secondary education programs that are administered by the department of Indian affairs. His findings are tragic. I will take a moment to read to the House some of the findings of his audit.

First, Indian and northern affairs cannot demonstrate that it meets its stated objective: to assist first nation students living on reserves in achieving their educational needs and aspirations.

For example, the department does not have the necessary assurance that first nations students are receiving culturally appropriate education. Moreover, progress in closing the education gap for Indian students living on reserves has been unacceptably slow. At the current rate of progress it will take over 20 years for them to reach parity in academic achievement with other Canadians.

At present about 117,000 students enrolled in elementary and secondary schools live on reserves. Current budget costs, not including school construction and maintenance, are about $1 billion annually. That is about 21% of the money that goes into Indian affairs. Despite the huge budget, the department needs to radically speed up reform and accountability practices to meet increased demands placed on education as a result of an increasing population on reserves.

There are other things I will briefly mention. The Indian affairs department does not know whether special needs students are being appropriately identified and assisted. That is according to the Auditor General of Canada.

The department has little involvement with first nations in the development of pedagogical principles and instruments, including curriculum design, instruction standard and teacher qualifications. Those are not things that people who are elected to council can simply do because they were elected.

Again, the department does not generally review the mission statements, objectives and plans of the schools that it funds, so it has no idea what is going on. Also, recent evaluations of on reserve schools disclosed a significant need to improve various aspects such as curricula, teacher training, equipment and homework policies. However the department, according to the Auditor General of Canada, does not monitor the implementation of evaluation recommendations. There is a great lack of responsibility on the part of the federal government that is not appropriately borne by the government.

It is shameful that in our society young native children are 20 years behind the academic achievements of Canadian children attending public schools. It is a tragedy. A whole generation of children will be left behind in the rapid technological transformations our society is experiencing.

We must not fail these children. We must have accountability not only on the reserves, although certainly there, but in the department of Indian affairs as well. We must make sure the resources and tools are there to give these children a well rounded education and that they are used as they are intended to be used. Adequate amounts of moneys, properly priorized, are essential.

We have tried in the past to educate native children. During the 20th century the Government of Canada created the residential school system to teach young native children how to cope in modern society. Unfortunately the residential school system had its share of failures, although teachers and government officials at the time, I believe, honestly thought they were doing their best to help the children. However many judge them today as having instituted a system that robbed natives of their culture.

The real failure of the residential school system was the lack of accountability by the government of the time. Some who taught in those schools did fail the children. Some native children were abused and those who abused the children went unchecked. The government failed to hold accountable those who contracted out to teach those vulnerable children. Right now the government is in the middle of a multibillion dollar lawsuit as a result of that lack of accountability and concern.

We must make sure that situation never happens again. Although circumstances are different, the results as we see them turn out to be the same.

We are failing the children on our reserves because they are continuing to fall behind the world in education. Why is that? It is because the government failed to adequately privatize aboriginal funding. It failed to insist upon financial accountability of money sent to the reserves which was earmarked for education.

The auditor general made this quite clear in his report to parliament. He told the department of Indian affairs to demand better accountability of elementary and secondary education programs because the children were being left behind. We must not let them continue to be left behind.

By adopting the motion, the government is taking a very important step to assure better quality education for native children. The motion makes financial accountability an obligation, not an option. The motion presented by my hon. colleague will help better the lives of aboriginal children.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Before resuming debate, it is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Lethbridge, Trade; the hon. member for St. John's West, Coast Guard.

[Rick Laliberte, Liberal, Churchill River, SK]

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great honour to rise at this time to address the House but, most important, to address the people of Canada. I would like to make some opening statements in my first language. As opposed to preparing a translatable speech, I will translate it following my statements.

In a very brief statement in Cree, what I have said is that in the journey of life on this land we have seen many peoples find a home here. In searching for this home there have been agreements among our aboriginal nations and the nations around the world that found this place to raise our children together. I understand that relationship, the relationship of how Canada was created by a treaty process. The treaty was a nation to nation agreement, that the country we know as Canada was given birth when the crown of England struck treaties with the aboriginal nations of this country.

In creating a country as beautiful as Canada is today, and we talk about the marginalization and the problems that our aboriginal people are facing now and into the future, I beg all members of the House and I beg all citizens of the country to look at restructuring and correcting the relationship that this sacred treaty was signed on for living together in this country.

Referring to the restructuring, bringing more auditors to financially accountable programs will not correct the restructuring and the relationship of this country. I would say, and I would challenge, and I have spoken of this before, that a third house in parliament should be seriously considered, a third house that brings in a unity among all people of the country. This House is acceptable as a parliamentary house of dialogue of the country.

We also have the other House, the Senate, that conducts the affairs and the law making of the country. The third house of which I speak could take in the parliamentary building that exists today, the parliamentary library. I offer this today because it was built with a symbol of unity.

From the time of the signing of the treaties, if we look at the journey of the country and at the clerk's table as the signatory of the treaties, the crown came to that table to sign treaties. All the laws and administration of the affairs of the country have been taken by the crown. The aboriginal people have not been given the opportunity to be partners, to be part of the decision making and law making.

Mr. Speaker, I forgot to say at the outset that I will be splitting my time.

I draw to members' attention a treaty that was originally signed and understood. I should not say signed because it was an intention. It was called a two row wampum. I do not know if the ministers here are aware of the two row wampum. The two row wampum treaty signified that in the journey of life the aboriginal people and the people who came from all shores could travel together in harmony and unity. If one vessel overempowered another vessel in that journey, we would have lost our way and intent.

We have had hon. members today challenging the mismanagement of affairs by the chiefs and councils. I have been a witness to the failure rates, to the high school dropouts, to the unemployment rates and to the fetal alcohol syndrome. All these problems seem to be landing on a handful of chiefs who have been audited for mismanagement.

That is not the debate today. The debate today is about the public reporting and auditing of public funds under the contribution agreements between the federal government and individual Indian bands. That is only a symptom of the problems that we have today in the aboriginal communities and in the aboriginal nations.

We have to look at restructuring, at where we will go from here on in. If we can have a third house in parliament, a council of aboriginal nations can sit in that house. If we have fiscal and electoral problems in any of our communities, they would be accountable to that council, not to the minister nor to anyone else. It is only right that they be accountable to their own nationhoods. If we look at self-government, we are not creating a dialogue of the nationhoods that exist.

Someone mentioned the truth. Let us talk about the truth. If we talk about the Cree nation, it extends from northern Quebec all the way to the Rocky Mountains. By no means can I be fooled if someone were to say that the Cree nation is united. It is diverse nation and has been dissected by existing provincial boundaries, Indian agents and Indian district offices.

We need to have a cohesive approach. We must allow these nations to grow and be accountable to their members. It is not band membership we are talking about, it is nation membership. Band members are citizens of their nations and they have to be accountable to their people. We must allow them to be accountable to their people. We will then see what the aboriginal people can contribute to the betterment of the country.

We should give them the tools and the natural resources they need to improve the economic cycles in their communities, regions and territories and that will enhance our country's future. They will be living partners in our urban centres. Their knowledge and research in the future technology field, but also embedded in their traditional knowledge and oral history, will become examples for the world.

A united nationhood of aboriginal people working in concert with the treaty negotiations that took place and made this beautiful country we call Canada is the dream we have for our children, but we have to work together.

There are only a handful of aboriginal people here in this House and we represent a huge geography, the huge tracts of lands that expand to the north.

The debate today incited me to raise the issue one more time. The accountability issue, the plight and the problems that deal with the administration of funds that members of the opposition have raised and looked at for a number of years, will fade away but the issue of the restructuring will stay. That is where I would like to see the debate go.

There have been no solutions. The motion does not address the plight of aboriginal people. It only addresses the problem the minister has accounting to the treasury of the country. It does not address the issues of the aboriginal people. When the House is ready to debate that, I will rise again and make that debate.

Accountability can go both ways. It is a double-edged sword. If the treaties and their spirit of intent were to share the land, in light of a handful of funds for housing, for medicine and for education, these funds are now being allocated because of the land that was transferred. If aboriginal people want to look at the accountability of finances they can look at the accountability of the lands and the management of their resources.

It is our journey as Canadians. It is our journey as residents of our many territories. As an aboriginal person, I am proud that I am willing to offer a new structured relationship within this country to build a proud jewel in the globe where Canada can be a beautiful place for everyone to live. The accountability issue is just the start of a dialogue of restructuring ourselves. It could be a bold economic adventure. Research and development that does not take place now could take place in our homelands.

The chiefs are making decisions that are not based on sound, long term plans. They do not have their own research development institutes. That is what I beg to challenge the House on today.

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I was interested in the comments made by the member across the way and would like to ask him a question.

The member expressed certain concerns with respect to the lack of resources the chiefs have to do background research. I was also very interested in his comments about the use of the parliamentary library. These were very interesting proposals and the types of things we should be discussing.

I also noted in his comments that the Liberal government has not fulfilled a number of outstanding treating obligations. I wonder if the member could elaborate on what treaty obligations this government has not yet fulfilled. As we know, the treaties are based on the honour of the crown. What obligations by the crown does the member feel that the Liberal government has not yet met?

[Rick Laliberte, Liberal, Churchill River, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the obligations that were agreed upon in treaty were signed with the British crown to create a country called Canada. Today these obligations have been subject to interpretation. In the last general election we saw dialogue on and interpretation of these treaties.

When I first came to parliament, as I went up to the parliamentary restaurant on the right-hand side I saw a big pyramid that said all the credit of Canada is heaped on top of the pyramid. However, all of it would be nothing in my mind, if we took out the bottom part of the pyramid that is the territories and lands and of which our country is made.

If the vessels of Britain and France had stayed out on the ocean there would be no country. There would be no taxpayers and no credit. It was the territories and lands that were signatory, created by treaty, that created this country. From that relationship is where the obligations started fading. It was a mistake when we left the treaty signatories, let the aboriginal people go back to their camps and the crown assumed the administration of the country. Let us restructure and go back to that table.

Let us bring back the aboriginal people as a part of administering the country, as a part of making laws, taking control of them and enforcing them. They have to be part of the fabric of the country. They cannot be self-governing and thrown aside to address their own affairs. They have to be allowed to play a part in addressing the affairs of the country as well. They are a part of this country. That was their inheritance.

[Guy St-Julien, Liberal, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a comment and ask a question to the hon. member for Churchill River.

As we know, Canada's aboriginal and Inuit communities currently have access to changing economic development programs which, more often than not, are managed from afar by people in government offices. These communities must adjust their projects based on criteria defined by outside authorities.

We know that, as a result of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, a report entitled “People to People, Nation to Nation” was drafted. For our Cree and Inuit friends from James Bay, Nunavut, Nunavik and all of western Canada, is my colleague pleased with what was said in the report of the royal commission?

[Rick Laliberte, Liberal, Churchill River, SK]

Mr. Speaker, since returning to the House I have taken great interest in the royal commission report. It is bound in a number of volumes.

My original interest, because of my previous life in the educational field, was only the educational chapters. However, the one thing that existed in the royal commission report, which I thought was a jewel, was the aboriginal house of representation. It is hidden inside the royal commission.

If anybody reads the royal commission report thoroughly he or she will find there are a lot of futuristic recommendations in it. Some of them did not even materialize as recommendations. They are written in the body of the royal commission report. That is where this house of representation for aboriginal people was written.

I would ask the hon. member who made her maiden speech, and is now an Acting Speaker, to read the whole royal commission report on aboriginal people. It is a worthwhile document. It sets a journey and a vision for our people into the future.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will speak about initiatives undertaken by the Government of Canada to strengthen accountability in first nations and Inuit health programs and services, one aspect that we have not heard about today.

I will outline the government's mandate in the area, detail the provisions contained in Health Canada's new accountability framework and identify the government's short and long term accountability goals.

We currently, as a government, provide over $1.2 billion for non-insured health benefits and community based health prevention and treatment for first nations and Inuit. Over 600 facilities across Canada offer a full range of community based health programs and services which include nursing services, prenatal and children's programs, public health disease and environmental health services, prevention programs, the Indian and Inuit health careers program, the national native alcohol and drug abuse program and the first nations health information system.

We have also provided a non-insured health benefits program which supplements the benefits covered by the insured programs offered by the provinces and the territories.

The non-insured health benefits program serves over 700,000 clients. It includes not only vision care but prescription drugs, medical supplies and equipment, dental care, medical transportation services and other care such as short term mental health crisis counselling.

Anybody in the House from any party would admit there is a long road ahead to fully meet all the needs. However, the government is moving forward and we are trying to do it without criticizing the client that we serve.

Concurrently the Government of Canada has been working diligently with the stakeholders and across government departments to address issues of accountability. In the Speech from the Throne, the Government of Canada pledged to improve the health of aboriginal people and aboriginal communities by championing community based health promotion and disease prevention programs. We do this in partnership with the first nations. We are working to address the health inequalities which have plagued first nation communities for far too long.

Illness of almost every kind occurs more often among aboriginal people than among other Canadians. Consider the statistics, then move away in our minds from statistics and say that they represent real aboriginal Canadian people in this country. Diabetes, for instance, is three times higher in first nation communities than the rest of Canada. First nations and Inuit experience a higher rate of almost all chronic diseases, including heart disease to hypertension to tuberculosis. The average life expectancy for aboriginal people is at least seven years less than for other Canadians.

We have introduced concrete measures designed to improve the health and well-being of aboriginal people throughout Canada. However, increasing also at the same time the transparency and accountability of the first nations, as they manage and they deliver these services, has to be part and parcel of what is needed here.

Over the next few months Health Canada will launch a series of new initiatives and processes, both internally and with its stakeholders, to enhance the financial and program accountability to strengthen the ability to monitor grants and contributions and to respond to accountability issues.

Nobody wants to duck any problems that exist. We want to identify and develop mechanisms that help people help themselves.

At the same time, the Government of Canada recognizes that it has to maintain the objective of assisting the first nations people and the Inuit to build their own capacities to allocate and use the much needed health resources within their communities.

Since 1999 the first nations and Inuit health branch of Health Canada has been working with the partners, the Assembly of First Nations and the Inuit Tapirisat of Canada to develop an accountability framework for improved management practices. We have had assistance from many organizations. In fact, there are over 100 pilot projects on accounting management and assistance in place at this point in time.

The accountability framework will clearly outline the roles and responsibilities of relevant parties. It will also enable Health Canada to demonstrate results in investments, programs and services that are delivered. As well, it will identify the gaps in the service, improve the capacity to deliver the service and measure performance and improve overall management practices. They have to go concurrently.

An office of accountability implementation has been established to oversee the main components of this framework. These components are designed to build a more transparent accountability process. They include the programs, health plan program deliver and administrative capacity, in addition to the reporting, the evaluation and the audit elements.

An audit and accountability bureau was created which reports directly to the associate deputy minister of Health Canada. In addition to the traditional audit functions, it also oversees Health Canada's responsibility with respect to ethics and values.

A new quality assurance division will ensure that grants and contributions are well managed.

Within the first nations and Inuit health branch, regional directors are reviewing all the agreements in place to ensure that these agreements are processed, administered and maintained in accordance with Government of Canada policies and procedures. The ongoing implementation of the accountability framework will lead and has led to many improvements, not only in internal management control practices but in the standards, the policies and the controls for the negotiation signing and ongoing management of agreements.

We will, on this side of the House, support first nations and Inuit communities in building good governments, including more effective and transparent administrative practices. We are committed to continuing to work with first nations and Inuit organizations to help them improve their own accountability practices and to address any outstanding issue.

We will not list the failures. We will support, implement and encourage all of the success stories in this land. We will acknowledge around all the parties in the House that there is a need to be there helping with the health and the accountability in all programs governing our aboriginal peoples in this land.

[Reed Elley, Canadian Alliance, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to say that I have the utmost respect for my colleague and for what I believe she has done in her work on the Hill with aboriginal people. I know that she knows something about my involvement with aboriginal people.

I think the vast majority of us in the House take very seriously the work that lies before us in terms of bringing aboriginal people into some sense of sustainability and economic development, giving them a sense of self-worth and bringing them into the Canadian family in every way possible.

I know she has some concerns about our motion. At the same time, I want to ask her this question. We know the vast amounts of money that are involved. They are billions of dollars. Ostensibly the money is set aside by Canadians, through the government, to help our native people achieve higher levels of success in every way.

Yet while all this money is going to native people, we still have the appalling statistics. We have statistics that tell us that unemployment is very high among native people on reserves. We have off reserve people in cities who are not able to find jobs. We have huge problems on native reserves with HIV, hepatitis C, diabetes and all of those diseases that are also in the non-native population, but are disproportionately high in our native population. We have terribly unacceptable suicide rates among our native young people. I just get sick when I hear about it. I see terrific amounts of substance abuse. What went on with the James Bay Cree young people is probably just a drop in the bucket, and it became a very celebrated case.

All of us have to grapple with this question. We have this money available and we have the resources to put at the disposal of native people. If there is not an accountability problem, what is it that is not working to help our native people to achieve what we want them to achieve? I would certainly appreciate the hon. member's elucidation on that.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is wider than what I addressed in this particular 10 minutes. However, the root of it has to do with the culture and a respective people, their ways and their ability to govern themselves that historically has been taken away, maybe with all the best intentions.

Historically, we have done some wrong policy development. We acknowledged that with apologies. We have a situation where people of my age have been treated very poorly.

I know in my riding, when I discuss these issues with some of my constituents, they are ignorant of the facts. They do not realize the intensity of the depravation. They do not realize the lack of potential for the education of all the potential leaders in the community.

It goes much more beyond the accounting concept of accountability. It goes to a people who have in their own way been colonized and not willingly so. I think we have great potential for leadership and change. I do not think we will get there until everyone acknowledges that there were very wrong things done, maybe, as I said, with the best of intentions.

However, right now the only way forward is not to withdraw the finances but to help with all the governance solutions we can come up with and to address the social inequality, the educational inequality and the housing inequality. At the end of the day, if my children in my home faced the same challenges that I think a lot of young native Canadians have to face—and we know that their population is growing very rapidly—it would be very difficult and maybe they would not meet all the expectations laid down before them.

I sincerely hope that the motivation behind today's motion is not really about the accountability of the pennies but the movement forward of the people.

[Myron Thompson, Canadian Alliance, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it does give me pleasure to speak to this motion we have before us today and to speak in regard to the situation for aboriginal grassroots people, who I really would like to focus on.

The previous speaker for the Liberals made the point that it is time to accentuate the positive and I certainly agree. I would like to be able to do that more and more, because there are some positives out there. I have seen them. I have seen reserves where there is 100% employment and where there are excellent plans, excellent programs and a real honest, hard effort on the part of a number of chiefs and councils on a various number of reserves, and that is worth noting. There is no doubt about that.

However, when we take on a portfolio that leads us across the country to deal with grassroots natives all across Canada, we cannot help but notice some very serious situations and problems.

I would encourage all members of the House, whether they have native reserves in their ridings or not—they should go outside their ridings if they do not—to make a point of visiting some of these ridings. Stay out of the elegant administration buildings, or go there for a little bit maybe, and maybe visit the chief and councils in some of their fine homes, but get further into the reserve and really talk to the grassroots people, the individuals who are living on each and every one, and pass out the bouquets when they are deserved. When members see good things happening, they should bring it to the attention of the House. Let us know. We should know more about them. I agree with the hon. member that we need to accentuate the positive as much as we can.

However, where I have been and in what I have seen in the over 300 reserves that I have visited, there have been both positives and negatives. Unfortunately there is an awful lot of suffering going on across this land that needs to be dealt with.

I agree that this particular motion is not going to answer all the problems. A lot more has to follow this type of legislation in order to achieve much, but surely everybody can understand—and I appreciate the Liberal government supporting this motion—that in a lot of cases whatever we do will take dollars. In order to provide the dollars that are necessary, we need to have some good accountable people making certain that the dollars are going to and achieving what it is we want to have happen across this land.

I do not have to spend a lot of time talking about the examples I have seen, but I have been in their homes and sat on stumps that were used for chairs. I have been treated to a great deal of hospitality by so many of these people, who have become very good friends. We are in contact quite often, either by mail or phone from time to time.

As for the suffering, I just could not believe that I was in Canada when I went into a home where there were 12 to 14 members of a family living in that home, with the very minimum to eat, nothing to sleep on, no rooms within the shell that they called home, no running water and no electricity. It was not a rare thing that I saw. It was quite common and in some very unexpected territories, areas where one would not think it could happen.

I was looking at a number of the concerns brought forward by aboriginal people. Alberta, one of the most fruitful provinces in the country, had the highest number of people on reserves asking for help. In a three year period, there were 56. Manitoba was second with 17. What they were asking for was some accountability and they did not know for sure what it would take to get that to happen. They would simply contact their member of parliament. The member of parliament would direct them to the department of Indian affairs, which would direct them to the chief and council. That is where they went in the first place, without results.

In many cases threats were received. They were told to stop complaining about the problem or not to bring it to the attention of the administration any more. They were told that if there were any more words from them they would wish they had not asked for help. Those were the kinds of threats that were made. Homes were burned down on some reserves, with people allegedly saying that they were purposely burned out because they had spoken out against the administration of that particular area.

These are serious things. Yet at the same time, a lot of public money was going into a number of reserves to build some real fine schools, although I will not tell members where they are, with as little as 10% of eligible students in attendance. They had the finest equipment, the best that money could buy, provided by public funds, yet 90% were not attending those schools. Where were they?

I investigated further and became more familiar with the situation. I will use a common name like Jones. What was happening was that all of these great ideas and programs were being developed, and the chief would be Jones, and for some strange reason, the director of education would be Carolyn Jones, the director of natural resources would be Robert Jones, the director of public works would be Phil Jones, and the director of welfare would be Cathy Jones. No one was qualified to even know what they were doing in terms of offering education and assistance for various types of programs. The programs were there and the positions were filled, but no one was doing anything. They were not solving any problems. They were not getting young people into the schools. They were not giving young people the assistance they needed for their addictions and their problems.

My colleague from Okanagan—Shuswap and I visited Winnipeg. One cannot help but feel very sorrowful when one goes to a place like that and visits the streets. We were accompanied by a person who lives there. His name is Mike Calder and he really knows the situation and the problem. He is an aboriginal himself. He runs the St. Norbert centre there, trying to help bring in young people from the streets and assist them with their addictions and other problems.

It was sorrowful to see the young people on the streets—and I mean kids—prostituting, delivering drugs, doing anything they could. They get sucked off the reserves because of their situations and the mighty heroes of organized crime bring them in and exploit them all over the place. We could see them. All we had to do was get in the car and drive around late at night. It is not a pleasant sight for Canadians to see, yet it is just one example of the many across the country now happening in our cities. Young people are exploited day in and day out.

When we cry out loud and clear that we must do something serious about these adults who exploit kids, we do not get support. We get bills like those that have been coming up recently, bills that say we will take away their tax status and that will show them. What a very terrible situation.

I believe my hon. colleague from across the way—I am sorry, but I do not remember from what riding—said loud and clear that this motion might be something that needs to happen, but that this has to go a lot longer and a lot further. I consider this motion to be an excellent starting point. If we can all agree that it is a good place to start, then we have to work toward solving the problems that these people are facing, not through their own fault in many cases. It is not because of them that they are in the messes they are in. A lot of times the leadership is not there and the accountability is not there. The requests for leadership and accountability have not been supported by the government.

How Mike Calder would love to have the federal government phone him and say that it is going to support his initiative in Winnipeg. Right now his initiative is supported by the provincial government and the city. There is nothing from the federal government. What a shame that is when he goes around trying to get young people off the streets, trying to help them out of their desperate situations.

We have to change our attitudes and this is a good place to start. I thank the Liberal government for supporting the bill.

[Rick Laliberte, Liberal, Churchill River, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member talks about the plight or the affairs of those in off reserve urban situations. A lot of the public accountability being called for by the motion is limited to on reserve.

If it is off reserve, if the plight of urban aboriginals is being brought in, should the accountability of provincial governments be brought to the House and investigated and audited for the results of the plight of urban people who are off reserve? Does he understand the jurisdiction of on reserve and off reserve and accountability with the federal and provincial governments?

[Myron Thompson, Canadian Alliance, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for the questions. Of course I understand the difference. I also understand that because of things not happening for the benefit of young people in particular, and for others on the reserves, they are being drawn off the reserves by certain organizations and by people who live in the city, people who are pulling them off the reserves and telling them the people in the city are the heroes, that they are the people the young natives need to go to, that if they want answers to their difficulties, these people can help. They are being drawn off.

The contributions toward the reserves come from many areas. There is absolutely no reason in the world why public funds of any nature that go into a reserve should not be accounted for. Of course they should be, whether they are provincial funds or city funds. Some cities do that. Calgary is constantly dealing with the Tsuu T'ina reserve within the city. It happens all the time. This accountability is not strictly for the location of the reserve but within the jurisdiction of moneys received.

Mr. Speaker, I forgot to mention that I would be sharing my time. I hope it is not too late.

[Werner Schmidt, Canadian Alliance, Kelowna, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to endorse what my colleague from Wild Rose has just said about the importance of changing the attitude. I really would like to commend the Liberal government for supporting the motion.

At this point in the debate, though, I wonder whether it might not be good for our listeners to know exactly what the motion is that we are debating. The motion reads:

That the government stipulate that in all Contribution Agreements between the Federal Government and individual Indian Bands, the use of any public funds be publicly reported and audited.

That is the motion. The intent of the motion, the exposition, if we like, is clearly what the money is being used for, how much money is being used and whether in fact the money is being applied in the manner that the original program intended. That is the technical import of the motion.

However, I want to go well beyond the technical intent of the motion because the essence of the transparency that is being called for, the accountability that is being called for in the motion, really has more to do with an attitudinal change and the recognition that with receiving funds there is a responsibility. It is the emphasis on responsibility that I wish to attack.

There comes a point when people are put in charge. At the present time the government is making a big issue of the fact that our aboriginal people ought to be given the powers of self-government. That is a wonderful thing to do. We want to give our native people the right to determine their own affairs. Giving them the power and the right to do so has an implicit sense of responsibility.

Part of that responsibility is to account for what we are trying to achieve. Are we achieving those things? Is the money we are applying to those purposes being used for those purposes? We are not talking about peanuts. We are talking about $4.2 billion or thereabouts this year. That is an awful lot of money. Where is the money going? What results are being achieved?

My hon. colleague said that a lot of positive things were happening. Indeed there are. However, are the bands who are achieving positive results not the same bands that can show that there is reward for responsibility, for exercising accountability and being responsible for decisions that are made?

These are not those groups that go on tours. These are not the ones that go on cruises. These are not the ones that are paid exorbitant salaries. They are not the ones who hide where the money is coming from and where it is being spent. These are the ones who are telling their people the amount of money they got, where the money is going and what the results are. They should be proud of that. When they want to hide facts is when they get into trouble. That is the issue.

When will the time come when we as leaders in the House can demonstrate to the people that we are responsible? Will the Prime Minister, for example, demonstrate clearly that he is prepared to open the books as to what happened with the HRDC grants, the Shawinigan affair, his relationship with the hotel owner and the golf course? Will the Prime Minister tell the people of Canada what he did, or will he hide it? The Prime Minister is responsible and it is the duty of the House to call him to account.

That is what we are trying to do with the motion. We are not trying to call to account those band leaders who are doing their job. That is not what we are trying to do. We are trying to call to account those who are not doing that. We cannot do this unless there is a law that works.

Hon. members opposite have referred over and over again today to the provision of the audit in the legislation and regulations that apply. Let me read what the legal provisions are. The Indian bands revenue moneys regulations state:

8(1) Every band shall engage an auditor to audit its account and to render an annual report in respect thereof.

8(2) A copy of the auditor's annual report shall, within seven days of its completion, (a) be posted in conspicuous places on the Band Reserve for examination by members of the Band; and (b) be supplied to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

Obtaining a copy of the audit under Access to Information is blocked by the 1989 decision of the Federal Court in Montana Band of Indians v Canada.

This is a court deciding that the people of Canada cannot know the result of these audits. It is not working. The intent of the legislation was not to prevent them from knowing how much money was being spent, where that money was being spent and what the results of spending that money were. That was not the purpose of that legislation or regulation. The purpose of the regulation was to open up and indicate clearly that a third party objective audit showed how much money was spent, what it was spent for and the results of the particular program.

Instead, on a technicality the court argued that because the leaders of particular bands decided to put together public funds and because those funds came from private ownership of Indian bands and were somehow put together in one book, we could no longer tell what the real position was.

There is not a self-respecting accountant performing audit functions who cannot identify that kind of difference. The only reason it can be muddled up is by people deliberately muddle the issue. That is how it happens. It does not happen when people are honest and truthful. It does not happen when people show clearly that this is their money and this is money that came from the public purse. It happens when somebody wants to make sure that we do not know the truth.

The time has come for the Government of Canada to recognize that it is responsible, and part of that responsibility is to tell the truth, to recognize that it has made some mistakes, that there are some things it can fix and that it will do it.

It is not done by hiding behind a technicality that says one source of funds is over here and the other is over there so we cannot tell the truth. That is absolute nonsense. That can be corrected. The intent of the motion is to make sure that the kind of legislation presented to the House will enable this kind of money to be made public so that we can clearly tell what the facts are and where we can go.

I commend the government for going as far as it has in supporting the motion. I also wish to clearly demonstrate that I am committed to the position of our native people, people who are declared as Indians under the Indian Act. I want them to have the same self-respect that we have and to have the same kind of opportunity to pursue their interests as we have. I want them to be performing in the House just as we are. They are citizens of Canada. They are Canadians first, just like we are. That is what we would like in the House.

[Maurice Vellacott, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Kelowna alluded to the mix of public and private funds. A bigger term is used, the term co-mingling. At the end of the day we are hoping that is what the government has some understanding about with respect to the motion.

Would the hon. member expand on that in terms of indicating what he understands the motion to be doing and, if there is honourable intent on the government's side, what it intends by the motion as well?

[Werner Schmidt, Canadian Alliance, Kelowna, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would be very happy to expand on that. A number of Indian bands have extensive holdings and generate substantial revenues from those holdings. I commend them for the application of their expertise, their knowledge and understanding to do that.

Some of it comes from natural resources, from the application of the enterprise in terms of business ventures, and from the ownership, development and administration of financial institutions. All these are examples of where substantial revenues can be generated and are generated.

It is very easy for these groups to recognize the source of the revenue and the expenses associated with those kinds of enterprises. That is not difficult. Many of them are incorporated as separate and individual entities under the particular band council. It is not difficult to keep them separate unless we want to mix it up. It can be done very simply.

The motion recognizes that the same kinds of regulations and laws which govern the corporations we run and are involved with ought to apply in this case as well. When the government contributes funds from taxpayers it is from all of us. It is not limited to a particular group. This money comes from the public purse and should be accounted for in the same way as other audits are accounted for. The people who pay are the people who should know where the money goes.

[Guy St-Julien, Liberal, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Nunavut.

I have listened to a number of speeches today and I read the Canadian Alliance motion which concerns the financial transfer arrangements between the federal government and individual Indian bands. It should have said aboriginal bands.

What the Canadian Alliance members would have us believe in presenting this motion today is that they are truly concerned about the effectiveness of the mechanism the government has set up to ensure the follow up of funds transferred to aboriginal communities.

They want to have us admit that they simply believe it is inappropriate for aboriginal peoples to be funded jointly by the private and public sectors.

Let us get right to the problem. We should look instead at the ability of the majority of the first nations to provide an accounting, be they the James Bay Cree, the Nunavik Inuit and aboriginal peoples across Canada and the Inuit of Nunavut. In fact, 98% of all audits done last year with aboriginal bands were submitted to an independent auditor, who accepted them without restriction.

But if we look very closely, we can get to the real problem. Today, they are talking about a financial audit, but they have opposed the economic development of aboriginal peoples in Canada since the start. They are either against the economic development of the James Bay Cree, the Inuit of Nunavik or Nunavut, or against certain Indian bands in Canada.

What they should do is move a motion telling the government what it could do for aboriginal housing in Canada. The Canadian Alliance is calling for audits but does not want the private sector involved with aboriginals. If we look at housing, just for the James Bay Cree and the James Bay agreement, there is currently a shortage of 2,000 houses. Nothing is heard about this. The Canadian Alliance members go to standing committees but say nothing.

Right now, Quebec's first nations, whether James Bay Cree or the Inuit of Nunavik, are taking charge of their own affairs. They are doing good reports and managing their affairs well. Companies like Air Creebec, First Air and Air Inuit are examples showing that things are really going very well.

When it comes to the economic development of Canada's first nations—this is what it is important to know, and this is what the Canadian Alliance is not saying—we are going to look after the health, housing and shipment of food to northern communities only accessible by airplane. Canada's first nations are contributing to the economy.

Often, when an aboriginal person receives $1, 97 cents goes back south to buy a number of things. There is the example of the nine Cree communities of James Bay. Everything comes from the south. The Canadian Alliance never speaks about the transfer between aboriginals and non-aboriginals.

In their motion, they are calling for immediate audits. Aboriginals would say “by the next moon”. Well, the next moon has come and gone. We will have to wait until next month.

There is one thing the members of the Canadian Alliance ought to understand, and that is the necessity to be concerned about the economic development of the aboriginal peoples, the Cree or Inuit of Canada. We know that at present the aboriginal communities have access to changing economic development programs that are for the most part administered at a distance. I must emphasize that they are administered at a distance from government offices, by public servants. They have to make their development projects fit criteria that have been defined by outside authorities.

If the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs were closed down completely this very day and the public servants were sent out into each and every aboriginal and Inuit community, the change would be evident. That is what is important.

The administration of our departments need to be monitored, whether they are in Ottawa, Toronto or Quebec City. To give one example, in lower town Quebec City there are 118 federal Indian and northern affairs employees who look after the aboriginal people of Quebec. They are rarely seen. There is the occasional meeting but half of these people ought to be out in the communities. They ought to be in the aboriginal communities of Quebec, in the James Bay, Chibougamau or Nunavik, but they travel there just when the time is right for them.

What must be noted however is that the aboriginal people of Canada are good administrators. The members of the Canadian Alliance ought to find a means of working with the government to improve the situation of our aboriginal and Inuit friends. They could try to find more funding for housing for Canada's native people.

The mention of housing cannot help but lead to a discussion of social problems. For example, a two bedroom house in Nunavut, Nunavik or in many of the James Bay Cree communities will be occupied by 18, 20, 21 or 22 persons, while the same sized accommodation in Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City or even Val-d'Or will be home to four persons.

This is due to the fact that the government does not consider aboriginals like homeless people in their communities, since aboriginals have the decency to invite families that do not have a home. They invite them during the winter. In the summertime, they go fishing or hunting. Whether it is Inuit or Cree people, the story is the same. During the winter, our Inuit and Cree friends invite other families to live with them.

Like Canadian Alliance members, we all agree that sound management is necessary. Some day I would like to hear them talk about the way to co-operate with our aboriginal friends, who buy all their staples and food in southern communities, whether it is in Chibougamau, Val-d'Or or Montreal. All governments should contribute to the transportation of food by air.

I will support the motion but somewhat reluctantly. As my friend from the Bloc Quebecois says, I will support it but I will do no more than that. The Canadian Alliance did not choose the proper words today to help our aboriginal and Inuit friends. We must find solutions together because we know that social problems exist in these isolated communities where there are no roads.

If we really want to help our friends, we should look at the report of the Cree-Naskapi commission—which was published in three languages—where it says, and I quote:

A treaty implementation secretariat totally independent from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development should be created to manage the fulfilment of the Government's obligations under treaties and agreements.

Whether in the House of Commons or in committees, the report of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples is not consulted often enough. This report proposes measures for our aboriginal and Inuit friends in Canada. If we truly want to co-operate with our friends, we should give them the possibility of directly managing mining, forest and fishing resources, since this would allow them to find ways to promote economic development and job creation.