Debates of March 23rd, 2001

Prime Minister

[Diane Ablonczy, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I guess we have to give the Deputy Prime Minister an A for effort, but we do not hear any clapping from the public.

Today's revelations explain why the Prime Minister did not dare go public with the documents about who really owned the golf course shares because the facts could not support his version of the events.

Do not the government and the Prime Minister see how necessary it is to give the truth to Canadians and just deal with this issue in an honest and open manner?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the public is obviously and definitely not applauding the Alliance for its unwarranted assertions. The Alliance is not using these opportunities to talk about the economy. It is not using them to talk about agriculture. It is not using them to talk about the environment. It is obviously because the public thinks we are doing a good job and it is a vote of confidence.

The Prime Minister has been factual. He has been truthful. Those who are asserting otherwise are terribly wrong, and they should admit it.

[Diane Ablonczy, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, surely Canadians deserve better than this from people they trusted, people they believed, and people, now it turns out, that were hiding and covering up a very serious situation where a prime minister was using his public office for his own personal financial gain, to feather his own nest in retirement. Canadians need to hear the truth of this matter.

I am asking the Deputy Prime Minister and the Prime Minister to tell Canadians what really happened, to come clean with all the documents and all the facts so that this matter—

[The Deputy Speaker]

Before I give the floor to the Deputy Prime Minister for his reply, I remind hon. members that the Chair can be somewhat generous in terms of the time for questions and answers, but they should try to stay as close as possible.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, when it comes to truth, the truth should start in the questions of the hon. member. What she alleges is not true.

The Prime Minister has been upfront, factual and truthful. He has said that he has not been involved in any conflict of interest. He has not done anything contrary to the ethics or the rules in question.

The hon. member ought to recognize that. She is using vague words. She is raising insinuations but she has provided no facts in support of her insinuations because what she says and implies in her questions is not true.

[John Reynolds, Canadian Alliance, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC]

Mr. Speaker, let us talk about some truth and some facts. One week ago today, Melissa Marcotte phoned me in my office, pleading on behalf of the Prime Minister and telling me her father had been the Prime Minister's best friend all his life. For the 37 years of her life she was like a daughter to the Prime Minister. Today she is saying “I feel I have been made a fool of. I work for a bank. They may dismiss me”.

I agree with the Deputy Prime Minister that we should be on the issue of the dollar but, first, should we not hire Ted Hughes as an independent judge to clear the air on this whole issue?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the first thing the hon. member might do is to ask Ted Hughes to look into the unwarranted assertions in his questions.

The Prime Minister has stated definitely from his seat in the House of Commons that he did not own the shares in question after he became Prime Minister. Those are the facts. When it comes to matters of the records of the company in question, he has no right because he is not a shareholder to have access to these records or any control over them.

The Prime Minister has been upfront and truthful. I wish it could be said in the same way of the allegations of the Alliance Party and the member who has just spoken.

[John Reynolds, Canadian Alliance, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Prime Minister was not listening. I made no accusations.

I stated that Melissa Marcotte phoned me last Friday as a friend of the Prime Minister, as she put it, “to pull my leader off this case because it was unfair”. Today she is saying “I feel I have been made a fool of”. She also said “I was trying to clear him now and I cannot clear him and I do not want to be the one bringing him down”.

These are serious accusations from a 37 year close personal friend of the Prime Minister whose father was the Prime Minister's best friend. It is time; Canadians have a right to get the clear issues. Ted Hughes should be hired by the government as an independent judge, as he has lots of experience, to clear the air once and for all.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has cleared the air. He stated the facts from his place in the House of Commons. The problem is the fog that is being created by the Alliance Party in its desperate attempt to keep itself shored up in public opinion. Where does it stand on the economy? Where does it stand on the environment? Where does it stand on tax cuts?

None of these things matter to members of that party any more. Why do they not get real on matters of concern to Canadians? They realize there is nothing they can attack because the government is doing a good job, and in desperation they are turning to these unwarranted insinuations and innuendoes.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in June 1999, the Bloc Quebecois asked the Prime Minister if he was still a shareholder of the Grand-Mère golf course. The Prime Minister replied that he had sold his shares in November 1993.

This morning, Mélissa Marcotte, a person close to the Prime Minister, said that he was still a shareholder of the Grand-Mère golf course after November 1993. This information was confirmed by Gilles Corriveau, a spokesman for Louis Michaud, also a shareholder.

Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that the Prime Minister's claim that he sold his shares in 1993 and was therefore not in a conflict of interest no longer holds, and that he misled the House and the public at large?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Absolutely not, Mr. Speaker. Howard Wilson told Newsworld:

I have access to all the documents. I saw all the documents. I was able to examine them. This is personal information on the parties, including people other than Mr. Chrétien, but I can confirm to my full satisfaction that his shares were sold in 1993 and that they were never back in his possession.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil, QC]

Mr. Speaker, for over two years now the Bloc Quebecois has been asking the Prime Minister to table the agreement confirming the sale of his shares. He has always refused to do so. This morning, Ms. Marcotte and Mr. Corriveau stated that the Prime Minister had been a shareholder until 1999.

If the Prime Minister refuses to table the bill of sale, is it simply because this document does not exist and he—and this is clearer than ever—misled the House and the public?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I reject the hon. member's questions, because they are not based on facts.

The Prime Minister provided the facts to this House and he has no authority to have documents published after he has sold his shares.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, during the election campaign, the Prime Minister again trotted out the ethics counsellor to improve his image.

Today, in a Toronto newspaper, this same counsellor clearly admits that the facts are not known to him and that he is far from being an expert in corporate records, a small detail.

Will the Deputy Prime Minister admit that the ethics counsellor is nothing more than a smokescreen, a puppet, who must resign immediately, and that the Prime Minister can therefore no longer take cover behind him?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, there is no need to discredit a public servant of long standing who is doing excellent work. He is doing his job with honesty.

The opposition parties had no problem with the ethics counsellor when they asked him to conduct investigations. It is only when the investigations failed to substantiate the opposition's charges that they began to discredit the ethics counsellor.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is necessary to be familiar with corporate records and books to understand what has gone on since 1993, a small detail.

For several weeks now, the Prime Minister has also been holding up in his defence the RCMP's opinion that there was nothing to investigate.

But Melissa Marcotte, whose family holds shares in the golf club, and Gilles Corriveau, a spokesman for the Michaud family, and also a shareholder, said that the Prime Minister had been a shareholder after 1993.

Will the Deputy Prime Minister finally admit that the Prime Minister can no longer hide behind the RCMP?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, he begins by trying to discredit a public servant of long standing. Now he is setting out to discredit the RCMP.

The RCMP operates at arm's length from the government. It has done its job. It has said that there were no grounds for continuing to investigate the matter. This is a fact that the opposition does not like but it is a fact all the same.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, oh what a tangled web the government weaves on this. Does the Deputy Prime Minister not realize that it is the Prime Minister himself, by refusing to table all the relevant documents, by refusing to put all the facts on the table, who is holding up the business of this parliament and of this country?

If he wants to talk about the economy, agriculture, the environment, free trade and all the things that we want to talk about here and in fact have kept talking about, it is the Prime Minister who can release parliament by setting up the independent inquiry we are asking for today.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, there is no reason for an inquiry. The Prime Minister has stated the facts from his place in the House of Commons. This has been confirmed by the ethics counsellor. This has also been confirmed by the decision of the RCMP that there is no basis to look into the matter further.

If the opposition is not asking questions it thinks should be asked on the economy, on agriculture or on the environment, let it bear the blame itself. Let it not throw the blame on anyone else.

It is the responsibility of opposition members if they think they do not need to carry on the work of the country as the opposition. Let them explain their lack. Let them explain their emptiness. Let them explain their failure to the Canadian people.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, while the Deputy Prime Minister tries to dodge a bullet for the Prime Minister, the government is preparing to shower protesters in Quebec City with plastic bullets.

Does the Deputy Prime Minister not see that there are enough allegations, counterallegations and lack of information that would decide the matter once and for all? Unless the Prime Minister is prepared to put that information on the table today or very soon, there is a need for a public inquiry, an independent inquiry perhaps headed by Mr. Hughes or someone like him of equal stature, so that we can get on with the nation's business.

The Prime Minister can clear his name if that is what the facts do and we can get around to talking about other things. Let the Prime Minister do what he needs to do.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has answered fully in this House. I think the hon. member should only blame himself. In trying to ask a question without basis, when it comes to bullets, he shot himself in the foot because there is no reason for an inquiry.

He is holding up the business of the country and is using question period instead of doing what the opposition is supposed to do, which is to ask questions on matters of importance and meaning to Canadians. Let him bear the burden of that himself.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has admitted that starting in 1996 he intervened as Prime Minister with the Business Development Bank of Canada to help secure a loan for the Auberge Grand-Mère.

The ethics counsellor has now confirmed that in the period 1996 to 1999 the Prime Minister took part, through his lawyer, in negotiations for the sale of the shares in the Grand-Mère golf course to Louis Michaud Investments.

Would the Deputy Prime Minister tell the House whether the Prime Minister did receive money as a result of that sale of those shares?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, first, the hon. member is raising something that is not news. It was reported that the lawyer for the Prime Minister was involved in trying to get the debt in question settled that arose out of the shares being sold. This was reported in the National Post on January 23, 1999. I talked about this in the House in June 1999. This is old news. It has been reported. The hon. member is trying to develop something out of nothing and he ought to admit that.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a clear and irrefutable conflict of interest.

The conflict of interest code makes the Prime Minister the sole judge of his own conduct. It is now clear that the Prime Minister was simultaneously involved in lobbying to secure a loan for the Auberge Grand-Mère and in negotiating the sale of shares in a adjacent golf course, the value of which could have been affected by these same loans.

Does the government believe that it is appropriate for the Prime Minister to be the only judge of his own conduct? Would the Deputy Prime Minister, as a senior minister in the government, do his duty to parliament and to Canada and ask the Prime Minister to absent himself from these matters? Would he take the leadership that is within his grasp and call a public inquiry under the Inquires Act—

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. Deputy Prime Minister.