Debates of March 23rd, 2001

Request For Emergency Debate

[John Reynolds, Canadian Alliance, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I will just stand for a couple of minutes and support my colleague from the Conservative Party in this request of all parties on this side for an emergency debate on this issue.

It is not too often I find myself in agreement with the Deputy Prime Minister, but he is talking about getting back to the business of this country and what is good for Canadians. I think there is one way to do that, and that is a debate in the House today to get the government to realize the importance of having an independent inquiry into this issue.

We have the case where I, as a member of parliament, am phoned by a long time friend of the Prime Minister. It has never happened to me before. She was lobbying on one side of this issue to ask me to get my leader to pull off the issue. Today she is saying “I feel I have been made a fool of and I am afraid I am going to fired from my job for making this public”.

This is an emergency. It is time. I know that I myself and the other members of the House would sit here all of tonight and into tomorrow if we have to, because this is important business for the country. We have to get it over with and we have to impress that on the members from the government side. It is time to debate the issue fully in the House and have an independent inquiry.

I know how difficult this is. I have been a Speaker myself and have listened to many petitions for emergency debates. However, seldom did I see one where all the opposition parties were agreeing on the same issue no matter what their political backgrounds were. However, I think there is a desire on the part of all Canadians that we in this House get down to this issue and get it over with.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Bloc Quebecois supports the Progressive Conservative Party and the Canadian Alliance on the importance of having an emergency debate.

I remind hon. members that, by virtue of Standing Order 52(6) a ), an emergency debate must meet the following conditions, one in particular which I will quote: a ) the matter [—] must relate to a genuine emergency [—]

I believe that today, in light of what we have learned—and the demonstration we have had for the past few months, not to say the past two years—there are indeed grounds for an emergency debate so that the Prime Minister may explain himself.

I remind hon. members that, to summarize the situation, the Prime Minister has misled the House. He has misled the public, and that is serious. He has taken refuge behind an ethics counsellor who, by his own admission, does not even have the ability to exonerate him.

It is clear that there is a perceived conflict of interest, blindingly clear. The Prime Minister must explain himself before the House, and this serious matter, which casts doubt on the very capacity of the Prime Minister to govern this country, must be debated and debated now.

For your information, Mr. Speaker, I would like to quote briefly from the Marleau and Montpetit, page 589, regarding precedent in cases like this:

However, in one exceptional circumstance, an application was approved for an emergency debate on “the sudden and unexpected revelation of events which [had] taken place in the past, in that they might precipitate a course of conduct which, if allowed to continue unchecked, would certainly classify itself as an emergency and a matter of urgent consideration.”

Further on a specific case is cited:

This refers to revelations made by the Solicitor General in the House on October 28, 1977, concerning illegal actions committed by the national security forces of the RCMP in 1973. This matter was referred to the McDonald Royal Commission and to the Attorney General of Quebec.

Therefore, I am calling for support in this request so there will indeed be an emergency debate, given the urgency of the situation.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of the request for an emergency debate with respect to what we have learned further today with respect to the whole controversy over the Prime Minister's relationship with the Grand-Mère Inn and the Grand-Mère golf course.

It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that what constitutes an argument for an emergency debate is whether or not an issue is of such importance, and whether or not the country and parliament is seized of it in such a way, that unless it is dealt with we cannot move on. It is something that is so much on the minds of all members of parliament that unless we deal with it we cannot move on and deal with all the other issues that we have before us.

By the government's own admission, not just an opposition claim, we are now at that state of affairs that unless we have a proper clearing of the air with respect to this issue, unless we can hear in detail and at some length from the Prime Minister or from others who want to make his case and from others who have other claims to make, the House is basically in a state of paralysis.

It is not something that I welcome, and I think the behaviour of my party over the last several weeks would justify me in saying so. We would like to deal with other things, but the Prime Minister, by not being willing to produce documents and by not being willing to tell the whole story, has created a situation in which we now plead, first of all, with the Prime Minister, but in this context, with you, Mr. Speaker, to create a situation in which this matter can be dealt with. Through your decision, Mr. Speaker, you can do what the government appears unwilling to do. It is not that we are asking you to do the government's work here, because that would be unfair and unjustified, and you would be right to refuse it. We are asking you to do something for parliament and the country, to create an opportunity in which we no longer have to spend question period after question period trying to get this whole story out, but rather let us have a special emergency debate, let us have everything on the table and hopefully get this behind us.

[Diane Ablonczy, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would just quickly add that I agree with my colleagues in the House. I would point out to the Chair that this matter has been a question in the House for over two years now and it is time to clear the air.

It is very serious when the head of state is under this kind of cloud, rightly or wrongly. I believe we need an objective and trusted person from outside to investigate this. If the House itself were to deal with this as a serious matter before our institutions and our people, that would be the responsible and proper thing to do.

Two years is long enough. We need to get to the bottom of this and clear it up.

[Mac Harb, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I cannot believe what I am hearing today. The opposition is creating an issue that, frankly, does not exist.

It has had an opportunity to debate this issue for over two years now in question period. It has had the opportunity to debate this issue during an election campaign. It has had an opportunity to debate this issue on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation station, as well as in the media. It has been holding news conferences day in and day out. It has had ample opportunity to bring the issue to the attention of the Canadian public. It has had the chance every day between 2 o'clock and 3 o'clock to debate this issue.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I realize it was rather unconventional for me to recognize a member from the government side when the request for emergency debate came from the opposition parties, and the House takes this matter very seriously, but clearly the member was engaging in debate.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to take part in the request for an emergency debate.

For two years, two years, two years—I repeat it three times—we have been wasting our time in the House of Commons on problems created by the Prime Minister.

Once and for all, this must be cleared up so that we parliamentarians may come here and do our real work. As the Deputy Prime Minister said, we should be here to do the work of the opposition and do specific things for the benefit of our country.

That is why I agree we should have an emergency debate in order to have done with it once and for all. If the Prime Minister has nothing to hide, let him table the documents in the House and let the thing rest.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I hope I have expressed clearly and precisely the Chair's view of the request by the opposition parties for an emergency debate.

I have listened to arguments from the members of each party and, if someone has something new to add, I am prepared to listen briefly. However, with due respect for each intervention, I would ask for my colleague's co-operation in not simply repeating the arguments made to the Chair previously.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, there is something a little different from what has already been said that I would like you to consider.

On Wednesday we had a debate on reforming the standing orders of the House. I believe it is very important to know that for the course of events we cannot as members have confidence in this institution if the Prime Minister himself is not prepared to answer a number of questions on matters relating to integrity.

We assume he acted in good faith. We would like nothing better than to believe that, but we will not have confidence in our role as members if the Prime Minister does not make himself available to answer our questions.

[The Deputy Speaker]

With all due respect, I am asking for new subject matter. I do think that many points have been raised very responsibly.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Canadian Alliance, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate your patience with us here. I would like to give a brief example of why this needs to be done now.

I am reflecting what my constituents are telling me. There is an emergency in agriculture. They want us to get on to that in this House. They see that we tend to be fiddling while Rome burns. The agriculture debate needs to take place and yet—

[The Deputy Speaker]

I do not want to diminish the seriousness of the request made by colleagues on this matter. I plead respectfully, if there is not something new that has not been presented outside the themes that I have already heard, I will tend to be less generous.

[Marcel Gagnon, Bloc, Champlain, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think that you will view what I am about to say as sufficiently important to be taken into consideration in your ruling.

I am the member for Champlain, which is the riding next to Saint-Maurice. This is our region. The allegations which were made this morning, the new information we have received, comes from our riding and the neighbouring riding, from the region. This business is beginning to weigh heavily on us, even economically. The member for Saint-Maurice is not—

[The Deputy Speaker]

Order, please. I am now ready to make a ruling. I would first like to thank all those who took part in the debate on this request.

I obviously tried to signal what I consider to be the gravity of the question when I entered into the subject matter acknowledging that the request for emergency debate consideration was under the signature of representatives of each of the opposition parties and, in some cases, not to diminish others, but certainly the House leaders.

This is an ongoing issue and, respectfully, I do not believe that the request meets the requirements of the standing orders at this time.

The House resumed consideration of Bill C-4, an act to establish a foundation to fund sustainable development technology, as reported (with amendment) from the committee, and of the motions in group no.1.

Canada Foundation For Sustainable Development Technology Act

[Ted White, Canadian Alliance, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Speaker, prior to question period, I was getting excited about the perhaps waste of money that the government is proposing in setting up a whole new bureaucracy to administer money or hand out money that could easily be done through some other arm of the government.

I would give an example to the minister if he would take the time to attend some of the bacon and egghead breakfasts which are put on by the Canada Council just about every month in this place. If he had been in attendance at the one that was held last week, he could have a met a professor from the University of Victoria who is involved in environmental studies and is already studying the environment and ways to help reduce pollution.

It is totally unnecessary to set up a whole new organization to deal with this issue of environmental studies and technologies.

It is completely ridiculous and it is an excuse to spend more money, make more patronage appointments and make the government even bigger. It is, because there is a bit of a surplus of taxpayer money, an excuse to spend. It is wrong to keep doing that when it is other people's money. I gave some examples—

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

But he says he supports it in principle.

[Ted White, Canadian Alliance, North Vancouver, BC]

Madam Speaker, the minister interrupts to say that the critic supports the bill. We support the idea that there needs to be technology development in conjunction with cleaning the environment. Of course we support that aim, but the point I am making is that there are divisions within the government which can already do that without setting up another bureaucracy.

I worry about accountability. The problem with setting up yet another bureaucracy is that there is hardly any accountability for the ones that are there. I gave some examples from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council before question period began. There are plenty of examples. There is the $38,600 for history and aesthetics of television medical dramas in North America. That is enough to make anyone sick.

The problem with the government is that there simply is no accountability. Committees have difficulty getting information about the way the government spends money. The Auditor General of Canada has accused the government of moving money around in the books in a way that makes it difficult to determine exactly what is going on.

The project that is taking place under the bill is just another excuse to expand the government. It should not be necessary. It should not be done when we can handle the project easily within other arms of government.

I realize the government is past the point of no return and will probably not withdraw the bill. In fact, I heard the minister say yes. The problem with this place is it would not matter if 300 MPs said it could be done more easily or more efficiently in some other arm of government. Because he is in charge, he will ram it through anyway and to Hades with the fact that it will cost taxpayers more money.

I will close by saying that since we are debating motions for amendments to the bill, I disagree with the motion put forward by the Bloc because it would simply add to the bureaucracy by involving the provincial governments.

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis-Et-Chutes-De-La-Chaudière, QC]

Madam Speaker, it is with pleasure that I rise in the House today to speak to Bill C-4. I support the remarks made by my colleague, the member for Sherbrooke, who is a member of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources, and who reported what he heard to us. We could almost say that he reported what he did not hear since, except for the minister and departmental officials, there were no other witnesses.

The Minister of Natural Resources told us before oral question period that there would be a consultation process. I would like to know if the bill is so perfect why there is a need for further consultation once it is passed.

It does not make any sense. Usually, when the government wants to introduce a bill, there is a consultation process which often takes place at the committee stage.

There is something else, something important. If the government really thought this bill was important, we know it would have passed it a long time ago. We also know that this bill replaces a bill—I think it was Bill C-46—that was introduced in the previous parliament.

I deplore the fact that once again the government is bringing back a bill that died on the order paper. Why did we have an election last fall? I know what it did to me. I was about to introduce a private member's bill that could have been passed and implemented before the election, but the Prime Minister decided to call an election before I had a chance to do that.

Now this bill is coming back to us as Bill C-4 to do what? To establish a new foundation. We could say yet another one.

Each time we in the Bloc Quebecois have questioned the relevancy of a new foundation. Generally speaking why is a new foundation needed? I took part in the debate on the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, another government agency.

Let us remind members about the millennium scholarships foundation. It was used by the federal government to interfere in provincial jurisdictions and hand out scholarships, and yet education is an exclusive provincial jurisdiction.

Now we have a new foundation to fund sustainable development and studies on new technologies. It is hard to be against a definition of sustainable development like the one we have in this bill, because it states the obvious.

The bill reads:

“sustainable development” means development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs.

I am told that the budget of the foundation will be about $110 million. That is not very much for the kind of work it will have to do, which is almost the equivalent of the program of the whole government.

Going through a foundation is a different approach than the one the government normally uses, either through its departments or through agencies over which there is some control by cabinet, and therefore parliament, because we can ask the ministers questions in the House every day, ask questions and try to get answers to understand the way things are done, why money was spent, and so on.

When the government tries to justify the creation of a new foundation, it tells us “It is important for this to be done by an organization operating at arm's length from the government”. At first glance, this looks interesting, particularly since we wonder sometimes, every day in fact, how certain departments operate.

It would be great if everything were at arm's length, but we need only look at the nomination process. The chair is appointed by the governor in council, or the cabinet. Six members out of 15 are appointed by the cabinet and the others are chosen by the ones appointed by the cabinet. That is not very reassuring. Then the members choose the officials who will be in charge of operations. All this is done in a very independent fashion, far from the usual rules for hiring public servants.

Nobody is against sustainable development. Like all the other parties the Bloc Quebecois supports sustainable development. The provinces also support sustainable development. Quebec has created a foundation, a special fund to finance projects on new technologies that do not impact on the environment.

Everything should be clear and all levels of government should agree. According to information I got, the consultations dealt with sustainable development and the objects and purposes, but not with ways of proceeding, not with the structure. This is a new structure will operate at arm's length from the government but be controlled by the government, the cabinet, not by the department. We know who is the boss in the cabinet right now; it is the Prime Minister.

It is somewhat like the ethics counsellor appointed by the Prime Minister and responsible for watching over him. Here we have a process that turns itself around and could be fairly dangerous, even though it has noble objects.

Quebec has had for several years a foundation dealing with the same kind of projects. It would be normal that the federal foundation operate in co-operation with the provinces.

This is not so sure, since admissibility criteria are not defined in the bill or their definition is so vague and so unclear that anything or nothing can be done at the same time, notably things that are already being done by provinces.

Those are the main reasons why I feel we cannot vote for this bill. The bill itself, even taking into account the motions put forward, raises so many questions that we cannot vote for it because the bill is really vague and unclear. On the contrary, legislation should be clear, applicable and applied.

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to have an opportunity today to speak on the bill. However I am also disappointed because of everything that has happened in the House over the last number of weeks, and particularly today.

It is, without question, important that we invest in sustainable development projects. I do not think there is any argument about that. I have listened to numerous members speak today, and there is no argument that we need to invest in sustainability. What there is, though, is a failure to have any faith in the government, the Prime Minister or any process that takes away the right of parliament to make decisions and puts that right in the hands of what is often referred to as an arm's length body.

Today I have come to realize that in Canada there are probably as many people who believe Elvis is still living as there are who have faith in the Prime Minister and the government. I say that in all seriousness. How can we have faith in the system anymore when we cannot clear the air on something as important as our Prime Minister being honest with us?

At a time when we should be investing in sustainable development, we must wonder why they are setting up this body at arm's length. Nobody believes it is arm's length anymore. For all government appointments on every type of foundation or board or whatever it sets up, there is always a rubber arm reaching in from the Liberal Party or the Prime Minister's Office with control over it. No one has faith any more.

I appeared the other night on a CPAC show and I talked about how we can encourage more young people to become involved in the political process. I made a comment that people must have faith in the system and believe the system works before they can become part of it and see positive change.

Although young people and many other people are not voting, they are involved in a political process. However it is a protest process. They are involved in things outside the realm of government. They no longer have faith in the government to follow through with important changes that must happen in our society.

As someone who has had faith in this democracy for a number of years, I have lost a lot of that faith since coming to parliament. I said the other night I was optimistic that we would see positive change. Parliament met and had discussions on democratic reform.

It now seems it was all just a wash and was not worth anything. Our Prime Minister is involved in a situation that has tainted the whole process, and he does not come clean. That is all that anybody is asking. If the proof is there it should be put on the table so that we can get on with the business of the country.

We are starting to be seen like the affairs in the states where a few times the presidents got themselves involved in some nasty little to-do. Thank heavens it is not quite that bad, but we are getting there. We are spending our time questioning the credibility of our government, and in particular our Prime Minister. It is so disappointing.

We cannot help but wonder why we do not put the money to operate the board into the environment department. Why do we have to set up another arm's length board, pay a board of directors of appointed people once again, giving the implication that it is only being set up there to have more money funnelled through Liberal patronage?

We will have people involved in the sustainability industry, business and some NGOs. However, as far as individual Canadians who have an interest or the representatives of those Canadians in parliament having any say over what will happen, it is not there.

We were recently talking about the Canadian Foundation for Innovation. That is an excellent program. Even with that there is a question on how the money would be distributed to different areas throughout the country. Parliament does not have any way of saying that the way it is broken down has to be changed, so we have to fight that out now.

There is no way that my party and I can support any foundation or board that will be at arm's length from parliament because that is the bottom line here. It is not arm's length from the government because its rubber arm just reaches in, gives a little tug and says that this is what we will do. Nobody in Canada believes any differently. I do not believe for a second that the Liberals believe any differently any more. Even they cannot ignore it any longer.

We have reached the point of no return. If we do not clear the air, we will be unable to deal with any issues and we will be doing nothing for the democratic process in Canada.

The intentions are very good, as are the intentions of parliamentarians. However it will not work if we are operating under the type of rules the government is willing to accept as a credible process. It is disappointing that we cannot support the sustainable development fund based on the fact that we can no longer count on the government to do what is right for Canada and what is right for our country in general.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise today to speak at report stage to Bill C-4, an act to establish a foundation to fund sustainable development technology.

In other words, the federal government wants to get involved in one area so that the concept of sustainable development can be applied in several areas of our society and so that we can gradually eliminate any development that does not take environmental issues into account.

We all agree with this objective. I think we all want any future development to be sustainable and to comply with sustainability requirements. However this bill needs to be strengthened and expanded. It requires some additional elements.

The first group of amendments deals exactly with that. These amendments are designed to strengthen the rules for choosing the evaluation mechanisms and the criteria for the projects funded by the Canada foundation for sustainable development technology.

The proposed structure of the foundation leaves ample room for laxity. Members of the board of directors will be appointed in part by the government and those chosen by the government will then appoint the others. With such a structure, we could very well see projects being funded that do not necessarily meet the objectives of the foundation but rather those of the government's friends. This needs to be clarified.

Let us not forget that the auditor general has denounced the government's custom of creating more and more foundations that are not really accountable to the House since the cabinet ministers in charge of them do not in effect control their activities nor do they have criteria to ensure that projects were accepted correctly.

In the present case we would have expected firmer assurances from the government that the money would be spent appropriately. In fact, that is the main problem with this bill.

This bill does not take into account the fact that a fund has already been created in Quebec for the same purpose and that it would have been much simpler to give the money to Quebec in order to increase the effectiveness of the Fonds québécois pour le développement durable.

It is quite surprising to note that the bill defines the concept of sustainable development but does not quite define the objectives of the approved projects.

I even predict that one, two or three years down the road projects will be denounced in the House as being absurd because they would not correspond to the objectives of a foundation such as the one considered for the sustainable development technology.

I am therefore inviting the government to pay attention, to listen, to study and to analyze the amendments proposed in this first grouping.

They will provide us with precise criteria for the awarding of contracts. We will have mechanisms for measuring completed projects to see whether their bottom line has changed society, ensured that the development was indeed sustainable, and saved us from situations such as we have seen in the past, for example the catastrophic groundfish strategy. That is one development in which long term sustainable development was not taken into account.

Then there are far more subtle points relating to the whole greenhouse gas issue. The foundation also needs to be looked at in terms of its objectives. Will it give an equal opportunity to provinces that already have measures and programs in place to deal with the greenhouse gas issue?

I know that Quebec has already done its part, while other provinces have not. There is often a connection with their energy production. They might turn to this foundation for more funds. This does not mean, however, that people in all parts of Canada ought not to be entitled to their share of the funds set aside. I feel that the bill as it stands is too vague, too imprecise on these points.

We do not have sufficient guarantees that the effectiveness of the program will be assessed. That is why we want the criteria to be tightened up so as to ensure that by the time third reading is reached the bill will have integrated the amendments required to give it some teeth. It will then be possible, if ever the foundation made a poor choice of projects, for funding to be taken back and a warning issued to project managers to change their way of doing things and to make sure the money goes to the right places.

As for the appointment process, we really have no guarantee that three, five or ten years down the road the criteria will have been applied properly as far as sustainable development is concerned.

In short, Bill C-4, an act to establish a foundation to fund sustainable development technology, is a good and desirable idea. However, it does not suit the Canadian situation because it does not respect provincial jurisdictions. It does not reflect the fact that Quebec is ahead because it already has its Fonds pour le développement durable.

The bill must be amended and refined to include many more of the elements that would make it an effective tool to stimulate initiatives in sustainable development so that, 10 years from now, we can say that Canada has in fact made the shift to sustainable development and that the foundation responsible for this has reached its objectives by respecting the specific characteristics of each region of Canada.

These things are missing from the bill. This is why we find the bill unacceptable in its present form. We ask the government to support the first series of amendments we proposed. Others will follow.

We hope that the government will accept our suggestions to avoid having to come back to the House in one, two or three years to completely rework the legislation or, worse, being faced with scandals or outrageous situations.

[Grant McNally, Canadian Alliance, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Madam Speaker, I will begin by saying that the Alliance will not be supporting Motions Nos. 1 and 6 put forward by the Bloc Quebecois for the reasons outlined by my colleagues.

It is worth repeating some of the difficulties that Motion No. 6 would bring to the legislation. It would bring provincial ministers of the environment into all the discussions regarding the criteria of eligibility and, in doing so, would introduce some different criteria of acceptance into every province. The bill needs uniformity and this would be a hindrance to that particular aspect of this important legislation.

If we were to pass Motion No. 6, or Motion No. 1 which is similar, I think it would create more problems than the bill attempts to solve. For that reason, we will not be supporting Motions Nos. 1 and 6.

Motion No. 10, brought forward by my colleagues from the Conservative Party, is an attempt to curtail some of the vagueness of the bill by introducing some eligibility criteria. We are supportive of that idea.

The purpose of the bill has been laid out and we are supportive of the intent of the bill. We have some questions and ideas for improvement in terms of how to implement the bill. We have some issues with some aspects of the bill that I believe are worth noting.

I want to state that the Alliance is committed to protecting and preserving our natural environment and endangered species. That is very clear within our policy and perspective. We want to work together with members from all sides of the House and the government. We commend them for moving forward on good initiatives that have to do with protecting our environment and enhancing sustainable development. Those are good, broad and general notions to pursue which we support.

My colleague from North Vancouver pointed out some rather glaring difficulties with the whole appointment process in terms of governor in council appointments, which is an aspect of this bill. He highlighted, from his own experience, some wasteful instances of taxpayer dollars being spent in ways that perhaps could have been allocated to priority areas, such as health care, education, reducing taxes and those kinds of very important priorities.

I want to talk a little bit about the appointment process that would be created by the bill. I believe the chairperson along with a minority number of directors and members are appointed by the governor in council, who would then appoint the remaining members to complete the 15 person board of directors. We do have some concerns that the foundation could become a possible patronage arm of the government.

We know that the government must appoint many people in many different arms of the government, related agencies and boards. We know that is a reality, but we would like to see a process that would have the most competent and trained individuals for positions like that.

We have seen examples in other areas, not particularly this one area that has been brought forward, where appointments have been somewhat questionable. We always raise the concern when the issue is brought up within any legislation that there needs to be a more transparent and accountable process in place for appointing individuals to government boards or to arms of the government.

One example, of which I am very well aware and which happened not too long ago, was the appointment of a former colleague of ours here in the House, Mr. Sekora, who was representing Coquitlam.

He was appointed as a citizenship judge. He made some rather outlandish remarks in the House which are documented in Hansard . We are all well aware of them. It showed insensitivity on the government's part to appoint an individual who demonstrated a lack of sensitivity on issues to do with immigration.

Even after the election he made comments that were rather derogatory to immigrants in his own community. He was then appointed a citizenship judge. His record seems quite contrary to the kind of individual one would appoint to a responsible position.

The actions and past experience of that individual give us reason for concern. We also see, through another piece of legislation, governor in council appointments where individuals appointed to boards are perhaps not the best selection in some cases. That raises concerns for us, and obviously we have the same concern with this bill. We encourage the government to, and hope it will, select individuals who are the best for the job in this area.

[An hon. member]

We will.

[Grant McNally, Canadian Alliance, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

I am glad to hear the minister say he will. He is making the commitment in the House today to appoint qualified individuals to the board. I thank him for that. We hope that perhaps he can talk to the rest of his cabinet colleagues and impress upon them the importance of doing so within their areas and departments.

I will talk a bit about an environmental issue in my own community. There are several. One has to do with protecting a very sensitive area known as the Cod Island wetlands. It is in the Lower Fraser Valley in the area of Pitt Meadows and Pitt Poulder. There are individuals who are working hard to find a community solution to the situation. They are trying to bring people together to protect one of the most sensitive wetlands, and perhaps the only remaining sensitive wetland in the lower mainland in British Columbia, from being developed.

There is the potential for that. An individual who owns the land wants to turn it into cranberry bogs. It is his land and he has the right to do so. However there is also concern that it be preserved, and there are individual working on that. I encourage the government to get involved as well, and to look at how it might help out. I have written letters to the Minister of the Environment and the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans on the issue and I will continue to encourage them to find community based solutions to protect that very sensitive area.

The Alliance is concerned about the environment. We are in many regards the party that wants to protect the environment. Members from other parties want to protect it as well, and we commend them for their efforts. We need to work together to find commonalities wherever we can in regard to the bill. There is agreement on some motions. We do not particularly support Motions Nos. 1 and 6, as I outlined. However we do support Motion No. 10. We will soon be debating other parts of the bill as well.

It is an important issue to talk about in the House. Many have said it will be the most important issue within the next generation. We need to protect our environment. It will affect the future health and well-being of all citizens no matter which area, province or community they come from. We must be concerned. We must turn our concern into workable action so that we do the right thing together in a way that is not partisan.

We will have disagreements on how to implement aspects of legislation. However we must work together on things we agree on and have a clear debate about the things we disagree on. We must do this in an open fashion, as has been done in the House today, and allow individuals to bring forward ideas and suggestions for amending legislation.

Our critic has been very involved for a long time with this issue and has ideas and suggestions on how to improve the bill. I am sure he has brought up his ideas at committee, and he will be bringing them up in the House. We need to work together to make this a workable piece of legislation.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Madam Speaker, I am always a bit flattered when you refer to me from the Speaker's chair as a membre, in French. I also know that the word refers to very different realities in French and in English. However, you can always count on me to stimulate the discussion, as far as I am allowed to do in this House.

I feel a bit spoiled to be allowed to speak on this Friday, not only because the Secretary of State for Amateur Sport is listening to me but also because I am doing so under the watchful eye of the member for Sherbrooke, who has done an excellent job. I am sure that all my colleagues join me in paying tribute to him for the tremendous job he did in the committee to convey the concerns of the Bloc Quebecois.

I am all the more confident because our former critic, the member for Jonquière, is close by and she is very knowledgeable about this issue.

I would like to remind the minister that if everybody in this House knows very well that there is a pink side to me, they should also know that there is a green side to me and that the Bloc Quebecois firmly believes in the need for governments to invest in sustainable development.

This is not an easy issue, because I remember that at the beginning of the 1990s, when the secretary of State for Amateur Sport had not yet been elected to this House but was working very hard to get here, we discussed the main recommendations which were adopted by multilateral forums. Of course, the discussion dealt with the damage to be expected from climate change.

This is why we do not question the necessity for governments, the federal government as well as provincial governments, to invest in this area. However we have a few questions about the way the government intends to proceed.

At first glance this bill appears to be a positive initiative, at least judging by its title, an act to establish a foundation to fund sustainable development technology. One would tend to see this as a rather positive initiative. However, if one takes a closer look at the bill, one finds that it raises some concerns.

First, we should not forget that Canada has a national issue table made up of various organizations dealing with environment issues. These organizations, which are monitoring the issue of the environment with a truly admirable attentiveness, have said that a $5 million outlay is very little. In fact, in view of the studies and field projects required to yield real results in our communities, some $1.2 billion should be invested in the foundation. At the very least the foundation needs $500 million for demonstration projects alone.

When we read the last budget speech announcing the establishment of that foundation, we realize that the government has been rather parsimonious. For a government which claimed the environment as one of its priorities, we cannot say that the finance minister has really loosened the purse strings.

I am rather surprised and I sympathize with this natural resources minister who has been somewhat ostracized when it comes to budget matters. I know he would have loved to be able to make an announcement in this House about a $500 million investment. Unfortunately he will have to make do with a meagre $100 million in the next few years.

As for the second concern, we know how foundations can be a touchy subject.

The foundation in question will be composed of 14 members, seven of whom will be appointed directly by the government. Those members shall appoint the other seven members—eight with the chairperson—of the foundation. Co-optation is clearly in evidence here, but this process raises a number of concerns.

Why was it not possible, for example, for provinces to submit lists directly? If this government had been really serious about co-operative federalism, the submission of lists directly by the various environment departments or ministries—all provinces and territories have one—could have been allowed.

It is a fairly common practice. I remember voicing the same criticism when the bill creating the National Tourism Commission was before the House. It is always the same. For the sake of transparency, the provinces should be involved in the appointment process.

I remind the House that the hard working member for Sherbrooke, who substantially increased his majority in the last general election, tabled an amendment essentially requesting that the various provincial environment ministers be involved in the process. I hope the government will seize the opportunity to set this straight, and to do for the environment what it did not do for the National Tourism Commission.

This is one of our concerns. We hope the government will be favourable to the Bloc's amendments.

I nearly made a terrible blunder. I want to take this opportunity to wish all the best to my friend André Boisclair, the new minister of the environment as a result of the recent cabinet shuffle in Quebec City. He is one of the most talented members of the government. He is a rising star in Quebec politics. To the member for Gouin, with whom you might even have shared a common electorate, Madam Speaker, and who is well known for his talents, talents the Secretary of State for Amateur Sport might envy a little bit, I wish all the best.

We know how much our fellow citizens value the environment. Understandably so as the future of our society depends on the environment. There are the issues of recycling, sustainable development, climatic change, which must all be looked at.

I would like to digress a little to say that I hope the Secretary of State for Amateur Sport has a recycling box in front of his home. I know this program is available in all Montreal neighbourhoods. We know how important green neighbourhoods are. I would not understand if the Secretary of State for Amateur Sport would not be setting an example.

This leads me to talk about the Quebec foundation which has been in existence for a number of years. I see the Minister of Natural Resources nodding. He will agree with me that this foundation has a $45 million endowment. The Quebec government maintains environmental know-how.

Let me remind the House that the Fonds d'action québécois pour le développement durable distributes its budget allowance between four major components, four major priorities. I would like the Minister of Natural Resources to carefully take note of these components. He will discover that it would be quite possible for him to transfer to this foundation the portion that should be allocated to Quebec. He could send it directly, move it through the Fondation québécoise pour le développement durable.

The first component deals with the integration and promotion of sustainable development, for which the Quebec government has set aside $19 million.

The second component is related to the carrying out of ecological infrastructures and the enhancement of biodiversity, for which the Quebec government has set aside $15 million.

The third component is most important in my opinion, but I know there are mixed views on this. For me it is of the utmost importance. It is the issue of experimenting with environmentally sensitive technologies.

Incidentally, if we want new ways of doing things, if we want Quebecers and Canadians to change the way they consume resources, if we really want to establish new practices which have no detrimental effect on natural resources, then obviously we have to experiment with new technologies.

To do so, funding must be available to community agencies that will conduct new experiments, on environmentally related technologies for example, at a cost of $7 million.

I see that my time is nearly up, so I will conclude by saying that although our party is pro-environment we believe that too many jurisdictions are involved. I ask the Minister of the Environment to support the amendments introduced by the member for Sherbrooke, for the Bloc Quebecois.