Debates of April 23rd, 2001

Business Of The House

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, there has been consultation among House leaders and I think if you were to seek it you would find unanimous consent for the following motion. I move:

That divisions on ways and means proceedings number 4 and number 5 be deemed to have been requested and deferred to the end of the time for consideration of government orders this day.

[The Speaker]

Does the hon. government House leader have unanimous consent to present the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Speaker]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

Access To Information Act

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

moved that Bill C-249, an act to amend the Access to Information Act (Crown corporations and the Canadian Wheat Board) be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, it is certainly nice to be back in the House after the Easter break. It is also nice to see you in the Chair, as well as my colleagues from the House, and to get back to the parry and thrust of the House and politics.

It is my pleasure to stand, as the first member in the House after the break, to talk about something that I am very passionate about and something I feel is very important with respect to governments of all kinds, that is, openness and transparency, where in fact governments and crown corporations should be accountable to the people that they serve.

In this case, the bill speaks to the Access to Information Act and openness and transparency, particularly by crown corporations but also by the Canadian Wheat Board. Being a member of parliament from an area in western Canada, I have a great deal of responsibility for the agricultural community. A lot of producers talk to me on a fairly regular basis with respect to not only agriculture but the role that is currently being played by the Canadian Wheat Board in western Canada and the marketing of particular products, such as wheat and barley.

Bill C-249 unfortunately, and I underline the term unfortunately, has been deemed to not be a votable item.

I also sit on the private members' business committee. We are currently looking at the possibility of having all private members' business, whether it be bills or motions, made votable. I personally believe a good first step to the renewal of this Chamber and this House would be to give all members of parliament the opportunity to put forward what they feel are necessary changes to government policy and to have their changes voted on.

Unfortunately this bill is not votable. Having sat on that committee, I do take some responsibility I suppose but I still suggest very strongly that this bill should be votable. I know other members of other parties will agree with me when I say that the Access to Information Act is not there simply for governments to be able to not put information forward but for members, not only of parliament but also of the public, to access information from crown corporations and government which they feel is rightfully theirs.

The bill raises a very important question for policymakers to answer. Should the Access to Information Act be extended to include crown corporations, including the Canadian Wheat Board as it is currently structured, as defined under the Financial Administrations Act?

Some crown corporations are already subject to the Access to Information Act, such as the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. Others, such as Canada Post and the Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, are not.

The argument made most often by these companies and the federal government is that because they are subject to competitive pressures of the marketplace, they should be exempt from the Access to Information Act. Their legitimate fear is that their competitors will use the act to obtain sensitive information that could be used to undermine the corporation's competitive advantage. That is a legitimate concern.

What most people do not realize, however, is that under section 18 of the Access to Information Act, government institutions can exempt competitively sensitive information. The act says:

The head of a government institution may refuse to disclose any record requested under this Act that contains (a) trade secrets or financial, commercial, scientific or technical information that belongs to the Government of Canada or a government institution and has substantial value or is reasonably likely to have substantial value; (b) information the disclosure of which could reasonably be expected to prejudice the competitive position of a government institution;

The reason I read that section is that we already have the ability under the act to not provide information that would or could reasonably be expected to prejudice the competitive position of a government institution. We cannot use that excuse to not open up the boundaries of access to information to other crown corporations, including the Canadian Wheat Board.

It goes on to exclude information, the disclosure of which could reasonably be expected to be materially injurious to the financial interests of the Government of Canada. Section 18 then may offer exemptions significant enough under the act that crown corporations and the Canadian Wheat Board would be able to comply with the act without having to disclose sensitive, competitive information. What it would do is allow that openness and transparency of these corporations, including the Canadian Wheat Board, to be made mandatory to give information that does not fall within these categories. I will talk to that briefly in a moment.

The bill I have put forward today not only addresses some of the most paramount concerns farmers have with the Canadian Wheat Board but of all crown corporations that include transparency and accountability. As in any crown corporation or, as the Canadian Wheat Board is now known, a mixed corporation, Canadians expect no less and they should continue to expect no less.

When the Canadian Wheat Board was incorporated by the Canadian Wheat Board Act in 1935 it was established to market, interprovincially and for export, Canadian wheat and barley for producers. The wheat board is a monopoly system. If a producer wants to sell wheat or barley outside the Canadian Wheat Board, he must apply for an export permit. This means he sells his product to the Canadian Wheat Board, obtains a permit, buys the wheat back from the Canadian Wheat Board and then sells it on the open market. In other words, the farmer has no choice as to how he markets his commodity. It has to go through the Canadian Wheat Board, a wheat board that generates sales of wheat and barley in excess of approximately $6 billion annually.

The point I am getting at is that the farmers do not have a choice but to market through the Canadian Wheat Board. There is a lot of money at stake for the producers so why should the CWB not be accountable and transparent to those very producers, those very people it is there to serve?

Somewhere throughout the over 65 year history of the Canadian Wheat Board, farmers started to question the agency that was supposed to represent their best interests. They started to question its monopoly and the returns compared to that of the marketplace.

Most farmers in western Canada do not want to eliminate the Canadian Wheat Board. Others may speak to that comment and may well disagree with it, but the people I have talked to have initially said that they do not want necessarily to get rid of the Canadian Wheat Board. They simply want it to be able to compete in an open and transparent basis.

Canadians expect accountability for publicly funded institutions, as they should be. I firmly believe that the bill before us today would only add to that accountability.

I want to talk very briefly about why this particular piece of legislation is before the House today: openness and transparency.

In a previous life and in a previous form of government, I learned a long time ago that it is much better to be open to the people and the public we serve. In the municipal government there is nothing hidden behind closed doors.

I found out a long time ago when there is a closed door meeting, even if they are only talking about what to serve on the menu, immediately there is some distrust. When the doors are closed and the information is not flowing, something is happening behind those doors.

That is what is happening with the wheat board. I do not believe that there is anything sinister happening behind those closed doors. I believe that the Canadian Wheat Board is hiding behind those doors and not allowing the true information to come forward. If it does, I do not believe that it will be detrimental to the operations of the corporation.

I will give one small example. A number of months ago the Canadian Wheat Board commissioned a survey. It was its survey, done of its producers. Some 1,500 people were surveyed. They were asked to answer questions. The questions were asked, the data were gathered, and that information is not available to the public. Although it was gathered from the public, gathered from the people who are the stakeholders in the corporation, the information from that survey is not made available publicly because, I am told, it is way too sensitive commercially.

I would even accept that the information gathered was too sensitive commercially. By the way, I went to the access to information office and was told quite emphatically that the corporation did not fall within the guidelines of access to information.

I then wrote a letter to the board and asked for the survey results and was told that I could not access them or be given the results. Then I asked a simple question: could I have the questions that were asked in the survey? I did not ask for the information that was gleaned or all the data gathered. It was a matter of the questions that were asked of the people who supplied the information. I was told that the information was way too sensitive and commercial. I could not even get the questions that they asked.

The board asked those questions of 1,500 people. They were not meant to be kept secret. It was simply a matter of giving me the questions asked, and I could not get them. Even though I believe the information the board would have given me would not have impacted on its operations at all, it tells me that there is a closed door mentality that it does not have to give information and therefore it will not.

That adds another nail into coffin of the Canadian Wheat Board. That is not what I want. I want openness and transparency from the wheat board.

Access to information is supposed to work quite simply. A person filing a request pays $5 to ask for a range of records held by federal departments and agencies including memos, briefing notes, expense reports and audits. For the initial $5 fee the person receives five hours of government search and preparation time, beyond which departments may charge additional costs.

Access to information does not go as smoothly as it is supposed to go. In fact a recent report by the information commissioner, Mr. John Reid, was highly critical of the federal government for undermining the spirit of openness by showing palpable animosity toward the process. The commissioner stated that some bureaucrats have even threatened the career prospects of their staff members that investigate complaints from dissatisfied people who have filed access to information requests.

This is totally contrary to the act. Moreover, Federal Court of Canada Justice Edmond Blanchard ruled recently that the federal government tried to circumvent the will of the information act by refusing to release papers explaining the reasons behind one of cabinet's environmental decisions relating to Ethyl Canada.

Ethyl Canada requested discussion papers from cabinet members referring to the decision to ban the fuel additive MMT. When access to the documents was denied, Ethyl Canada filed a complaint. Judge Blanchard subsequently found that Ethyl Canada had a well founded complaint under the Access to Information Act, noting that the purpose of the access law is to give the public greater access to the inner workings of government. That is what the act is there for.

That is exactly what brings us here today. It is an effort to open up government and its institutions to Canadians. A federal task force was also appointed last August, headed by Ms. Andrée Delagrave. It is currently studying and reviewing ways to improve the Access to Information Act. It is inviting the public to comment over the next two months on its improvements. The task force is meeting with bureaucrats who process the reports, historians, librarians, journalists and other users of the law.

I hope members of parliament would also be a part of that process. I know that my office and the offices of other members use access to information quite regularly in order to have openness and transparency.

The bill I have before the House today is non-votable. I find that somewhat disturbing. Hopefully in the not too distant future the House will allow these types of bills and motions to be voted on so that we can see where members of the House stand on accountability, openness and transparency.

I do not want to specifically target the Canadian Wheat Board, although it is mentioned specifically in the bill as are other crown corporations. When public funding is a major cornerstone of organizations, it is my belief that those organizations should be open and accountable.

Under the act there are safeguards with respect to commercially sensitive information, with respect to competitive interests, and that crown corporations can use to stop unnecessary information flow to individuals asking for it. However it does stop the closed door mentality of corporations that are not prepared to give the most minute details, which I believe is a right of the citizens they serve.

I will not stop here with the piece of legislation I have before the House. Other legislation will come forward and I suspect eventually the Access to Information Act, even through the task force, will be changed quite dramatically so that Canadians will have access to information they deserve.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Before resuming debate, allow me to return the good wishes of the member for Brandon—Souris and say how pleased I am to see him and all our colleagues on both sides of the House following the Easter recess, and particularly to find them in good spirits and good humour.

[Ben Serré, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak to Bill C-249. If passed, the Canada Wheat Board would fall under the Access to Information Act.

I can only say that such a scenario, if realized, would be completely unacceptable, not because the government is not open to accountability of its agencies and departments, as it most certainly is, but because it would run contrary to common business sense.

One wonders if the hon. member who put forward the bill and represents a western Canadian rural riding does not realize how the Canadian Wheat Board operates.

The Canadian Wheat Board is not a government department, not a government agency or even a crown corporation. It is a rather unique entity in Canada and perhaps the world in that it is a single desk marketer founded by federal legislation but not funded by taxpayers. Rather it is co-operative in style and is paid for by the farmers whose grain it markets. It is financially accountable to those farmers rather than to Canadian taxpayers.

It is also a business. By no means is it an insignificant business. It is a huge, highly successful commercial operation selling billions of dollars worth of Canadian wheat and barley each year to scores of countries around the world. Its success, which I hasten to add could not have been attained without the high quality wheat and barley our western farmers produce, makes it both the envy and the bane of its competitors.

As a business it competes with the Australian wheat board and major transnational companies that are similarly huge, such as Cargill, ConAgra and ADM. It is run by a board of directors, two-thirds of whom are elected directly by prairie farmers. As a business and a single desk marketing organization, the Canadian Wheat Board is probably subject to more audit scrutiny than any corporation either public or private could ever be.

Suffice it to say, to suggest the Canadian Wheat Board should fall under the same information legislation as government departments is quite frankly ludicrous.

If it is to advance the interests of farmers it serves, the Canadian Wheat Board must remain competitive in the global marketplace. Certain commercial or strategic information, if known to its competitors, could be used by them to gain commercial advantage, much to the detriment of Canadian grain producers.

Notwithstanding, the hon. member or any farmer, or any Canadian for that matter seeking information about the dealings of the Canadian Wheat Board, has several easily accessible options to pursue.

First, there is the CWB annual report, a comprehensive document which in terms of the information disclosed goes above and beyond the annual report of the Canadian Wheat Board's commercial competitors. The most recent annual report is 60 pages long and includes detailed information about stocks, market trends, export volumes, client countries and so on.

The Canadian Wheat Board, as with any other business, is audited every year by an independent, internationally known accounting firm. Detailed results of that audit are also part of the Canadian Wheat Board's annual report.

No, the Canadian Wheat Board does not release any information that would pertain to specific transactions or that would identify individual customers or shareholders. Nor do any of its competitors.

Farmers need to be knowledgeable about their wheat board and have every right to information pertaining to the CWB's performance and to facts that will help them make decisions about their own operations. The Canadian Wheat Board provides much of this information through market commentary, delivery related information, pool return outlooks, et cetera.

Farmers can also obtain facts about the Canadian Wheat Board through their elected directors. Directors have access to any and all of the Canadian Wheat Board's sales data and any other information pertaining to the wheat board's operations.

As with any business, nothing is off limits to those who sit on the board of the Canadian Wheat Board. It falls upon the directors to use their best judgment as to which pieces of information should be public and which should not.

Again I go back to a key point, which is that the Canadian Wheat Board is a commercial operation in a dog eat dog world. In these troubled times for grain producers, why would we add to their worries by making the board more vulnerable to its privately held secretive competitors? That is not to say that the Canadian Wheat Board is any less transparent than its competitors. To the contrary, it is more so.

Hon. members might recall that when the government made changes to the wheat board in 1998 it was with a view to making it more open and accountable to the farmers it serves.

Among the many actions the Canadian Wheat Board has taken to become more responsive and open to the farmers it serves was the development of an information policy. Let me be clear. This is a policy created by the board of directors in order to be directly accountable to farmers. The preamble to the information policy states:

As a producer controlled marketing organization, the CWB has a responsibility to provide meaningful and relevant information to its farmer shareholders. Information is key to increasing producer knowledge and understanding of CWB operations and performance, and will ensure that the CWB is accountable and meets producers' needs.

It further states that goals of the information policy are to:

1. enable farmers to make a meaningful assessment of CWB performance; 2. provide meaningful and relevant information to farmers for use in their operations; and 3. ensure farmers' and the CWB's strategic and commercial interests are not placed at a competitive disadvantage by any information release.

A key element of the policy is if farmers want any information that is not disclosed through the usual audits and annual reports, meetings with the board of directors or other channels of communication they can simply request it.

I point out that the policy calls for the Canadian Wheat Board to respond to requests for information within 15 days or, if it cannot provide the information requested within 15 days, it must tell the requester how long it will take. In comparison, the Access to Information Act provides for a 30 day response period.

I have heard no great hue and cry from farmers wanting the Canadian Wheat Board to fall under the Access to Information Act. Is this bill the result of stacks of petitions as is often the case with private members' bills? Not likely.

I will leave it to others to speculate on the motive behind this bill. I would like to close by simply urging members to vote against Bill C-249 because a vote against this bill is a vote for the commercial interests of our western Canadian grain farmers.

[David Anderson, Canadian Alliance, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I have just come back from southwestern Saskatchewan where the new crop year is beginning. Ranchers are out in their fields and calves are just being born. They are watching their new crops come to life. Farmers are beginning to go into their fields now to start their farming year, and within the next month will start to see their crops come to life, in the same way that western Canada is trying to come to life economically.

We are having a tough time in agriculture and producers are trying to respond and be successful. As we move into a new season and see it come to life, it is fair to ask: Should producers know about their product?

When growing a product there are some questions that are fair to ask and we should be able to get answers to those questions. It is reasonable to ask where the product is being sold and where the market is for it. It is reasonable to ask how much a product sold for, how is it blended and mixed out and if a maximum price was received. It is fair for the producers to ask if they got a fair price for their product. It is also fair to ask how much other people are benefiting from production.

These are a few of the areas that producers need to know about. They know very little today because of the lack of information coming from the system. Producers should know this, and the bill today begins to address that problem and process.

Bill C-249, an act to amend the Access to Information Act particularly with respect to the Canadian Wheat Board is important for several reasons.

First, we continue to live in a democracy. As we saw this weekend, people have the right to participate in and be a part of a democratic process. Farmers can be trusted. They do not need to be shielded from information about their own industry.

Second, producers need and can use this information. Farming is changing very rapidly these days. The old days when we trusted those above no longer exist. The days when everything was done in secrecy are not acceptable to producers.

The wheat board was developed during the war years to provide Europe with its source of cheap grain. It did that job. The wheat board did a good PR job from the beginning but there has been a culture of secrecy around since it was put in place. Basically farmers were told to trust it and not ask questions.

I remember as a young person on a farm being in a situation where farmers did not know what freight rates were and what they were paying to get their product to the market. They did not know what deductions were being taken off their crops. They did not know where their production went or how it was priced. Those days are over. It is not good enough any more.

It is only in the last 10 or 15 years that producers have realized that the wheat board and other organizations have not necessarily been looking after their best interests. One of the best examples I saw was in the early nineties with some frozen feed wheat. We were told by the board that it did not want it. It was not prepared to market much of it that winter. Farmers went out and found markets. They took their wheat across the border and arranged for pricing. They found out it was not quite as bad as it was thought to be in Canada.

They were prepared to go through the buyback system from the board. It was not the board that contacted them. It was the grain company in the United States that phoned and said it did not want to buy their wheat at the price which had been negotiated. It said it could get as much as it wanted at 85 cents less than what the farmers had negotiated.

It became obvious to the people who knew what was going on that our interests were not always being looked after but we could not get the information in any way, shape or form to prove it. I think we could agree that government organizations that withhold information have seen their day. We saw a good example of that this weekend.

Once it was stay at home and let someone else make decisions about the farm, but not anymore. The era of “we will look after you” is over. The farmers who are succeeding in agriculture today are some of the sharpest and most successful business people. They are usually the people who insist on managing their own resources in order to be successful.

Farming is a tough business today. Success means being on top of the industry. It means having all the information available to make decisions. Virtually every other commodity allows that. Wheat is one of the few that does not because we cannot get the information from the wheat board.

An example of an industry that has grown phenomenally and where people can get information is the pulse industry. Over the last few years pulse acres have grown by 2,000%. That industry continues to grow in western Canada. It is interesting that it has been one of the industries which has had the least government involvement of any industry in western Canada.

Producers need information which deals with the products they are growing. We need this bill for a number of reasons.

First, there is a desperate need for accountability at the Canadian Wheat Board. It has a long history of denying access to information. Without information there can be no accountability. Anyone who thinks about that statement will realize it is accurate. Without information no one can be held accountable.

There has been an information wall, almost a code of silence. We heard the member for Brandon—Souris speak about trying to get generic information and was absolutely stonewalled. It is a process familiar to those of us who have tried it.

The second area in which we need information is the buyback system. Over the years if farmers wanted to market their own grain they had to sell it to the wheat board and buy it back at an inflated price. This restricted and did not help producers. In particular it restricted diversification.

The western Canadian economy is struggling right now. One of the things we absolutely need is value added processing and diversification. The buyback which the board has in place hinders that in every way. There is a restriction on getting information on how the buyback is calculated and why we should have to pay the price it is asking. Producers are not allowed to question the figures.

I believe that the beginning of accountability would be to open up the Canadian Wheat Board to the Access to Information Act. There is a principle which applies here. People should be able to make their own choices and be educated enough to make them. The only way to ensure accountability is to let people participate voluntarily. I would suggest that while this bill is a good start, we need to go further. We need to take a look at voluntary marketing of our wheat.

I will give three examples of producers who are hurt by the current system of forced participation and the inability to get information from the Canadian Wheat Board system.

The first example is western Canadian farmers who have been able to contract their grain. Farmers who have found markets for it have been restricted by the Canadian Wheat Board from marketing the grain themselves. Ontario farmers have a choice when it comes to marketing grain but not western Canadians. Not only can we not get information but we have no freedom to market.

The Liberals are sending out a task force to talk to western Canadians about agriculture. Maybe they can start with this. One reason why there is alienation there is that people are treated differently in different areas of this land when it comes to marketing their products.

The second example of producers who are hurt by the current system is the organic farmers. They do a very good job of selling to niche markets. In the last few years the wheat board has tried to step in and take that away from them. Organic farmer organizations have a tough time marketing their grain because the wheat board does not sell well to niche markets.

The third example is producers who want to add value to their communities. Right now, because of the buyback system and the entire wheat board system, there is an inability to diversify in rural communities. We absolutely have to do that.

We have no opportunity, no information and no choice. I believe we should have a voluntary marketing system that would remove the problem of not being able to get information. However I do not see anything that progressive coming from the government.

I conclude by saying that I do not think there is a need to oppose this bill. The Access to Information Act gives adequate protection to the Canadian Wheat Board. If it does not want to release information it feels is commercially sensitive, it does not have to. If people have ever seen an ATI, they will know that there are more black felt pens probably used than there is clear ink on the page.

I encourage the government to have the guts to use this bill as a good beginning. It leads to greater freedom and autonomy for producers. I call on the government to go further in establishing a voluntary Canadian Wheat Board.

My challenge to the government is that it quit being afraid to lead. It is time to treat western Canadians as grown-ups. We are all familiar with the Berlin Wall that surrounded its people. The results behind that wall were inefficiency, a huge bureaucracy, an air of intimidation when it was challenged and no accountability. I encourage the government to get over that mentality concerning the Canadian Wheat Board.

I fear the wheat board, with its lack of openness to its policies, will drive the prairie wheat producers into the ground. I ask that this bill be supported. Although I know it is not votable, I ask that its provisions be brought to reality in the House.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette-Et-La Mitis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I had a marvelous speech prepared but I am going to shelve it. It will end up in file 13 rather than on the record, because I am somewhat scandalized to learn that the decision has been made that this bill will not be votable. This is quite simply a very fine and very simple bill: an act to amend the Access to Information Act (Crown corporations and the Canadian Wheat Board).

Examining the Access to Information Act, hon. members will see that it contains a schedule several pages in length. It will be seen that the bodies not covered by the Access to Information Act include the Canadian Wheat Board and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.

It seems to me that, for a government that has just signed an agreement with 33 other countries and says that democracy is something important, it should start by having some democracy at home, before trying to lecture on law and morality to the 33 countries of the Americas. It should start by setting an example within the country, by ensuring that access to information is available in all crown corporations, particularly in the Canadian Wheat Board.

Enough time has already been wasted. The government got fed up with our constant questions about Grand-Mère. It said that we had nothing better to do, that we were wasting our time here in the House. This morning they are wasting our time by bringing us together to debate a bill in a vacuum, which will go nowhere. We will talk about it for an hour. This will be a wasted hour of the time of all House employees. Electricity will be wasted. The salaries of employees will be wasted, because we will have to work and debate for no reason. It is time to reform this parliament and to do something here.

It should not be possible to introduce bills that are not votable. They should all be votable, from the first to the last.

It is a real shame that we have a government that hides and is afraid to make information accessible. And yet, when we look at the work of the Canadian Wheat Board—it does its work quite decently—it is apparent that the directors have set themselves a code of conduct and follow it.

As for the auditor general, I will use a quote I had included in my text to praise the Canadian Wheat Board. I will not have worked for nothing.

[An hon. member]

We will get something out of it.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette-Et-La Mitis, QC]

We will get something out of it. The auditor general wrote this in his report:

In the mid-1990s, the level of defaults, especially relating to the Prairie Grains Advance Payments program, threatened to undermine the viability of the entire cash advance program. When it became apparent that losses were becoming unacceptably high, the Department together with the Canadian Wheat Board took action to try to reduce the level of defaults. The changes they introduced to administrative practices contributed to reducing loan defaults from their peak of $61.6 million in 1993-94.

In this excerpt, the auditor general praises the work of the Canadian Wheat Board. The directors came up with an acceptable code of ethics.

Why does the government refuse to let the Canadian Wheat Board be subjected to the Access to Information Act? Why does it prevent crown corporations, including the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, which spends taxpayers' money to the tune of $1 billion per year, from being subjected to the Access to Information Act? Why does the Liberal government reject transparency? What does it have to hide? This is shameful.

I will never stop saying that we must absolutely manage to implement a reform and live the way we should in the 21st century. Gone are the days of horses and buggies. In case the government does not realize it, we are living in the era of the high speed train.

Times have changed and, together in this House, we should be discussing important issues. But I will stop here, because it is pointless to carry on.

Mr. Speaker, perhaps we could get the unanimous consent of the House, so that this work will not have been done in vain and ask that the bill be deemed a votable item.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Does the hon. member have the unanimous consent of the House?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, on the first day back after the Easter break it is a pleasure to speak in the House on this private member's motion, which requests that there be a new definition of government institution to open up financial administration and which includes the Canadian Wheat Board.

Although I have not been here for a long time, this is for me a bit of déja vu because we debated this issue in 1997 and 1998 when we were dealing with Bill C-4, the act to amend the Canadian Wheat Board. Certainly the New Democratic Party had a lot of difficulty with parts of that bill at that time and we subsequently voted against it.

However, we think there is some justification for lack of disclosure on this particular piece of legislation and in this particular area. The reason I say this is that the Canadian Wheat Board goes head to head with some of the largest multinational corporations in the world and we certainly do not see companies like Archer Daniels Midland and Cargill making available in minute detail all of the access to information that would be required should this motion ever be adopted.

At first blush, obviously, when we think of transparency and access to information we might wonder why anyone would be opposed to this. However, if we think beyond this a little bit and realize that we are dealing with some very large multinationals that the Canadian Wheat Board is in direct competition with, we can understand why the board has not made this available at this time. I find myself in support of that rationale.

It goes without saying that all directors will be entitled to the complete disclosure of all Canadian Wheat Board facts and figures, including but not limited to fully audited financial statements, so they will be able to examine the price at which grain is sold, the price premiums achieved, the operating costs, and whether or not the Canadian Wheat Board is being run efficiently. That is a result of one of the changes in the 1997-98 legislation, which opened up the Canadian Wheat Board by allowing an elected board of directors of farmers. It is a 15 member board, 10 of whom are elected and 5 of whom are appointed by the government. With the full knowledge these 15 directors have of the Canadian Wheat Board and its global competition, the directors would be, will be, and are in the best position to assess what information should be made public and what, for commercial reasons, should remain confidential.

Therefore, the New Democratic Party finds itself in opposition to the motion before the House. It is important to point out at the same time that not only the Canadian Wheat Board but the Export Development Corporation and Canada Post do not fall under the Access to Information Act. There are reasons for that situation and, as I have tried to point out, they are logical and well founded.

I will note as an aside that at the moment under chapter 11 of NAFTA there is currently a very major dispute going on behind closed doors involving United Parcel Service and whether or not the Canadian government is going to be required to pay several hundreds of millions of dollars. UPS is arguing that Canada Post-Purolator is competing unfairly against it.

This is exactly the point that the Canadian Wheat Board finds itself at: by publishing that data we would put ourselves at a commercial disadvantage to the Cargills, the ADMs and the other multinational giants engaged in the wheat industry.

I know there are others who wish to take part in the debate and there is time allocation, so I will conclude by making three brief points. First, the Canadian Wheat Board is a commercial organization and information pertaining to sales and prices is restricted, as it would be in any private organization.

Second, a board of directors heads the Canadian Wheat Board. Ten of those fifteen directors, the majority on the board, are elected farmers. They and they alone are responsible for the performance of the organization and the information it releases to its farmer constituents.

Third, the Canadian Wheat Board is not responsible to the public at large as it is not a government department. It is paid for by the producers in western Canada. The corporation submits its annual report to parliament each year and, may I add, they do have an auditor. I believe Deloitte and Touche is the company that audits the books every year and presents those facts. I an also given to understand that the Auditor General of Canada, as part of the wheat board bill of 1997-98, the old Bill C-4, will be examining the books of the Canadian Wheat Board.

I hope I have satisfied the House as to why the New Democratic Party would not be in support of this motion.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to stand to oppose the motion by the member for Brandon—Souris, because the net impact of the bill would be to undermine the ability of the Canadian Wheat Board to do its job.

The bottom line is the fact that the bill could even hurt producers' returns by, as the member who just spoke said, providing the competition with all the commercial information, the marketing information, et cetera, that the Canadian Wheat Board has available through its diligence and through the good work of its market information section.

I should not be surprised by the tactics of the member for Brandon—Souris, who is now using this new tactic under the guise of the access to information bill he is pursuing here to again attack the integrity of the Canadian Wheat Board. It seems to be commonplace for this member and members of the Canadian Alliance Party opposite to do that. They do it through the process of maybe stretching the facts a little and I would not want to go much further than that. They are building on myths about the Canadian Wheat Board.

I would use this as an example. In his closing remarks, the member for Brandon—Souris said, and I quote, “When public funding is a major cornerstone” of the organization then the Access to Information Act should apply.

The fact of the matter is the Canadian Wheat Board is not publicly funded. The Canadian Wheat Board operates under the legislation of the House. The Canadian Wheat Board is financed by farmers. The Canadian Wheat Board is controlled by a board of directors elected by farmers through legislation passed in the House.

In fact, there is no commercial organization in the country more transparent than the Canadian Wheat Board. It upholds its tranparencies in a number of ways. First, there is the elected board of directors who have to stand for election. Second, there is the annual report that is presented to the minister of agriculture. In fact, the member for Brandon—Souris, if he so desired, and I imagine he does, would be able to bring the Canadian Wheat Board before the standing committee on agriculture and question the board in terms of its activities. Can he do that with Cargill Grain and those other commercial grain institutions that he seems to be supporting in the guise of attacking the Canadian Wheat Board?

Next, there are the district meetings held in all the elected districts across western Canada. As well, there is the monthly newsletter that goes out from the Canadian Wheat Board. Also, there is the auditor general, who looks at the annual report of the Canadian Wheat Board.

How much more transparent does this organization have to be in order for the member to understand the fact that certain commercial information should not be made available to the competition?

I also want to point out that the member for Cypress Hills—Grasslands was on the typical Canadian Alliance rant against the Canadian Wheat Board. I want to underline the fact, in disagreement with what he had to say, that the bill would hurt primary producers. It would seriously hurt farmers in western Canada.

If some of these members would tour the Canadian Wheat Board head office in Winnipeg, they would see how it gathers its market intelligence, how it is one of the best sellers out there in terms of being able to maximize returns, and how, through its system of pooling, it is able to prevent negative competition within Canada and maximize what is in the international market and efficiently get the maximum returns from the international marketplace back to primary producers. If they would look at that business operation, they would see why the Canadian Wheat Board is so often so able to beat the competition. If the members opposite did a little research, they would find that the Canadian Wheat Board, in terms of some analyses that have been done, has been able to beat the open market pretty nearly all the time, not all the time, but most of the time, in terms of maximizing returns to primary producers.

The member for Cypress Hills—Grasslands also talked about the culture of secrecy of the wheat board. That is another myth. Nothing is further from the truth. Earlier in my remarks I outlined the reports, the meetings, the annual report and the information base. There is no culture of secrecy at the Canadian Wheat Board. Indeed, it is the direct opposite.

In conclusion, the bill would very seriously hurt the farm community. As I said earlier, I should not be surprised, but I am amazed that the members opposite continue to use any vehicle to try to build on the myths that are out there rather than talking about the strengths of the Canadian Wheat Board and how it can be used to assist farmers in their time of need.

As I said earlier, the Canadian Wheat Board is farmer financed. This access to information proposal from the member for Brandon—Souris would in fact put it in the position of actually having to subsidize the competition. The member, through his efforts in the bill, would actually subsidize the competition, the likes of Cargill Grain and other grain export companies, by having the Canadian Wheat Board, through its farmer financed organization, provide information on markets, on the markets of other countries, on weather patterns and all that intelligence base that the Canadian Wheat Board uses to assist in its market intelligence to try to make the best sales possible.

Under the bill, all of this would possibly have to be turned over to the competition. In effect, the competition would have to spend far less time in research in terms of corporate operations because the member's bill would be actually subsidizing the competition against the very farm community he proposes to speak for.

It gives me great pleasure to stand and oppose a bill that would undermine our farm community in western Canada if it were allowed to pass in the House. It would also put the Canadian Wheat Board at a disadvantage with its commercial competition in terms of trying to maximize returns to primary producers.

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank each member of the House who rose today to speak to the proposed legislation.

It does not surprise me but it does disappoint me that the member for Malpeque still cloaks himself in the paranoia that is out there. He did not look at the content of the bill dealing with access to information, the honesty and the transparency. He would rather go on a rant as to what is right and what is wrong with the Canadian Wheat Board. That is not what the debate was meant to be about.

It seems obvious that some members were not able to grasp the issue at hand, which is that openness and transparency is the only way in which any type of organization can be effective.

The excuses I heard from the member for Malpeque, as well as from the member for Timiskaming—Cochrane, included the words never, ludicrous, not necessary, trust us and be happy. The member for Malpeque suggested that the bill was a way of backdooring the Canadian Wheat Board. If he had listened to what I had to say he would have heard that this was not meant to get rid of the Canadian Wheat Board in any way, shape or form. This was simply meant to strengthen its operations in a number of ways.

The question that it does open up, especially for the hon. member, is how information from the 1950s could be seen as sensitive and commercial in nature by the Canadian Wheat Board and yet that information is not forthcoming. When the wheat board hides behind closed doors and does not even answer questions in a survey, it conjures up an impression that it has no desire to be more open and transparent.

Let us get to the big picture which deals with access to information. The rules have to be expanded as we are having difficulties right now accessing information.

Have the two members on the government side ever filed an access to information request? Have they ever gone through the process of finding out what it is like to get access to information? Has the member for Timiskaming—Cochrane ever met with the board of directors of the Canadian Wheat Board? I have met with those people and I have filed access to information requests. Quite frankly, the questions the members have asked I have already gone through.

The bill should be votable but unfortunately it is not. I hope the debate has indicated that this is an issue that will not go away. It can be resolved. The wheat board can continue to operate. It can be open, honest and transparent if it is given the tools. The member for Malpeque never mentioned this, but the wheat board also has the ability under the act to stop access to sensitive commercial information. That does not have to happen. The nonsensitive and noncommercial information should be open and available, not only to myself but to the producers that the board serves.

One can use that excuse to go to the board of directors but it also signs pledges that it will not give any information outside the board. Changes have to come from the government so that the information is made accessible.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The time provided for the consideration of private members' business has now expired. As the motion has not been designated as a votable item, the order is dropped from the order paper.

The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-13, an act to amend the Excise Tax Act, as reported (without amendment) from the committee.

Sales Tax And Excise Tax Amendments Act, 2001

[Claudette Bradshaw, Liberal, for the Minister of Finance]

moved that the bill be concurred in at report stage.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Deputy Speaker]

When shall the bill be read a third time? By leave, now?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.