Debates of April 5th, 2001

Income Tax Amendments Act, 2000

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

A recorded division on the proposed motion stands deferred.

Canada Foundation For Sustainable Development Technology Act

[Claudette Bradshaw, Liberal, Minister of Labour]

moved that Bill C-4, an act to establish a foundation to fund sustainable development technology, be read the third time and passed.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Transport]

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to take part in the debate on third reading of Bill C-4, which would establish a foundation to fund sustainable development technology.

Sustainable development involves balanced development, an approach that avoids either/or outcomes, that does not sacrifice one essential value for another. The goals are complex, not simple, for example, not just electric power, but power without pollution, not just industrial growth and busy factories, but these without environmental damage.

We know from the history of the last 30 years that these balancing acts are achievable. We need only think of the reduction of automotive emissions, the abatement of air pollution, improvements in energy efficiency, and technologies of enhanced oil recovery that squeezed new oil from old wells and at the same time reduced the environmental footprint.

The common factor in every case has been innovation: new thinking and new technologies that transform the equation, effective technologies, affordable technologies and sustainable development technologies. Innovation has helped us progress as a society and it will continue to do so in the future.

Innovation of this order is what Bill C-4 is about. The legislation is straightforward. It would authorize the establishment of the Canada foundation for sustainable development. The foundation would administer the sustainable development technology fund of $100 million announced in budget 2000.

The initial focus of the foundation would be on climate change and clean air because these are two major environmental challenges of our time, particularly as recent events in the U.S. have dictated. Under the climate change heading, it would concentrate on the development of new technologies to slow down, arrest and eventually roll back the threat of climate change, for example, technologies to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, to make carbon energy systems less carbon intensive, to increase energy efficiency, and to capture, use and store carbon dioxide.

In the clean air part of its mandate the foundation would focus on the development of technologies to reduce the level of contaminants in the air we breathe: volatile organic compounds, nitrogen oxides, particulate matter and others.

Technological innovation is by nature adventurous, pioneering work that will always involve some form of risk. That makes it particularly important that we achieve the best possible ratio of inputs to outputs, of investments to results.

First, the bill would require that the foundation concentrate its funding support on collaborative efforts rather than on projects by single entities. This requirement reflects a strong emphasis throughout the legislation on teamwork. It would also help ensure that funding goes to projects that receive technical review and peer support.

Second, the foundation would plan its activities to complement and to dovetail with those of other federal and provincial government programs on climate change and clean air.

In addition, the terms and conditions in the funding agreements would require the foundation to use the fund to lever investment from other sources to get the ball rolling, not to play the whole game. The foundation would fund up to 50% of eligible costs of any project but never more than 33% of eligible costs on average across the program. This requirement too is consistent with the promotion of teamwork. It is also a consistent maxim that a good predictor of a project's success is the willingness of proponents to put up some of their own money.

Let me now turn to another aspect of the proposed foundation: the arrangements for governance as visualized in the bill. Ultimately the extent to which the fund advances the cause of sustainable development depends on good targeting, good management and good administration. The machinery of government for the foundation that the bill proposes meets this requirement.

The legislation would require the foundation to operate at arm's length from the government and hon. members will see that the governance structure matches that requirement. Essentially it has two components.

One component would be a board of directors, an executive body that would be responsible for the management and services of the foundation and would exercise all its powers subject to the foundation's bylaws.

The second component would be a committee of stakeholders, potential clients of the foundation and other entrusted parties or members of the foundation as we call them. Their role would be analogous to those of shareholders in a private corporation in the sense that they would scrutinize and comment on the activities of the foundation.

Of the 15 directors of the board, 7 would be government appointees. Members of the foundation would appoint the 8 other directors. None of the directors or the members of the foundation would be from the government.

It is an accepted principle of sound design that form should follow function and it does in this case. The ultimate function is sustainable development, a process in which the trajectory is away from narrow perspectives to broad vision. That applies with full force to the development of sustainable development technology. It must be effective, environmentally benign and affordable. The form of the governance machinery proposed by the bill supports that breadth and balance.

Together, the members of the board of directors and of the foundation represent the experience and expertise of every sector linked to the development and implementation of sustainable development technology: the public sector, the private sector, academic institutions and non-profit organizations.

In order to have balance in the geographic sense, members will be drawn from all regions of Canada.

The bill also prescribes measures to ensure due diligence and accountability, requiring the foundation to establish sound financial and management controls and to appoint an independent auditor to verify the effectiveness of these controls. The foundation must submit an annual report to the Minister of Natural Resources, to members of the foundation and to the public. The report must include an evaluation of results achieved through the funding of projects and must be tabled in parliament.

The detailed terms and conditions associated with the management of the fund will be set forth in a funding agreement between the Government of Canada and the foundation. The Auditor General of Canada will scrutinize the funding agreement.

In order to begin implementation of the mandate of the sustainable development technology fund as soon as possible, Bill C-4 also contains conditional clauses that provide for the governor in council to designate a private sector foundation to serve as the foundation in accordance with the requirements of the legislation.

The legislation stipulates that in this eventuality the assets and liabilities of the private sector foundation would be transferred to the foundation and its board of directors and corporate membership would dissolve, thus triggering the appointment of the board and members of the foundation as stipulated in the legislation.

These conditional clauses are also contingency clauses, insurance against unnecessary slippage of schedule in the start up phase. In the event of administrative or other delays of process, they would allow the government to fulfil its promises to establish the fund.

I would like to bring hon. members up to date on the history of the bill. The legislation is based upon more than two years of the most open, transparent and comprehensive consultation that involved the provinces, municipalities, the private sector, academic institutions and non-governmental organizations.

Every aspect of Canadian life was consulted in that two year process and the sustainable development technology foundation is a product of that process. However we did not stop there. The consultation process continued even after the bill was tabled in the House on February 2. We have had the opportunity to discuss the bill in detail with directors of private sector foundations. We agreed that one or two issues related to the roles of members and the timing of their meetings could use clarification. We therefore prepared amendments to the bill to achieve those clarifications.

We presented the bill and the amendments to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources. After vigorous and constructive discussion the legislation and clarifying amendments received approval. During report stage we debated a further seven motions in amendment. One consequential technical amendment was adopted to ensure consistency of all amendments throughout the bill.

I want to take this opportunity to thank all members from the various parties represented in this House for their support. Bill C-4 was much enhanced because of the positive debate that was held.

In conclusion I repeat what the Minister of Natural Resources has said to the House on other occasions. He said that we could not rely on technology alone to meet the challenges of climate change and clean air or to achieve the balancing act of sustainable development but that a constant flow of new technology, effective technology, affordable technology and sustainable development technology were indispensable to our success.

As we know from experience, this is an area in which the right investment of dollars, effort and expertise directed at the right target at the right time could cut the largest problems down to size. It is the right legislation directed at the right targets at the right time. I urge hon. members to speed the legislation on its way.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Palliser, Human Resources Development; the hon. member for Dewdney—Alouette, Taxation.

[Dave Chatters, Canadian Alliance, Athabasca, AB]

Madam Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Surrey Central. I thank my colleague across the floor for the heartfelt presentation he just gave. It moved me deeply.

I am pleased to rise once again on Bill C-4. I will begin my presentation, as I have at every stage of the bill, by expressing support for the concept of bringing a group of experts together in green technologies. Our party supports the concept of creating a foundation and leveraging a fairly significant amount of dollars in the big scheme of things many times over in the private sector through partnerships to help in the development of new technologies.

It is a concept worthy of support. Our party was ready to support the bill if we could have had a simple amendment to it, just one amendment to provide some transparency and accountability. It was denied unfortunately at report stage when the government decided not to allow it. It makes me wonder why it would do that. It makes me fear that the concerns I have expressed about the bill are true and there is a reason the government does not want transparency.

The bill is a simple continuation of a process started three years ago in December 1997 when the Kyoto protocol was signed and Canada agreed to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to 6% below 1990 levels for the period 2008 to 2012.

There are many experts who feel that such a dramatic reduction is not possible or feasible as the goal of a 6% reduction represents about a 25% reduction from projected 2008 to 2012 emission levels, using a business as usual trend of rising greenhouse gas emissions as the basis.

To further complicate these projections Canada's levels of greenhouse gas emissions have risen steadily in the last few years to a much higher level than was previously projected.

Despite these complications the government continues to attempt to meet the Kyoto commitments with a variety of actions. For example, one such action was the government's action plan 2000 which proposed what strategic actions the government would take to meet our Kyoto commitments.

The problem is that the plan only aims to reduce the emissions by 65 million tonnes per year during the commitment period of 2008 to 2012. That is only one-third of the way toward the Kyoto commitment.

We had a good discussion this morning in committee with the climate change secretariat. It was obvious that the government would have great difficulty even reaching the one-third milepost toward the Kyoto commitment. There was also increasing evidence that climate change however much it was influenced by man's activities was inevitable. The government should move to some degree toward helping Canadians to adapt to climate change rather than perpetuating the myths that somehow the Kyoto commitment would prevent it, would reverse the trend and would save the world.

In September 2000 Environment Canada reported that the United Nations revealed that Canada's greenhouse gas emissions were 13% above 1990 levels in 1998. These levels have risen consistently due to factors such as the greater use of coal to produce electricity. If natural gas prices remain high, and we have seen evidence of that in Alberta, coal could be used even more than it is now. If Canada continues its business as usual, it is quite possible that the gap between projected emissions and the Kyoto target would be 26% or significantly higher.

Government documents regarding the bill state that Canada is a world leader in many climate change and energy efficiency technologies with emerging strengths in other areas. That is a term that the minister uses often in committee and in the House. I have to question why, if what he says is the case, Canada is relying so heavily on sinks and tradable credits in its Kyoto strategy? If we combine the increase in emission levels with the fact that the Kyoto protocol has virtually fallen apart over the issue of carbon sinks, it is clear that much needs to be done before Canada can consider itself well on the way to a significant reduction in emissions.

Canada is in serious trouble and serious trouble calls for serious solutions. If Bill C-4 lays out the groundwork for a key part of the government's climate change plan then we are all in trouble. The government should be providing a solid, accountable, transparent and responsible plan that would translate into a foundation. That plan should be producing real benefits to Canadians rather than the current legislation that plants the seeds to grow an enormous patronage plum, and I do not mean a tree.

There are a number of problems with the bill that I hoped to see addressed either in committee or at report stage in the House. For example, the issue regarding the accountability of the foundation and its reporting practices. I would like to see the auditor general have access to the foundation's books. The auditor general should bring forward regular audits to ensure that the foundation is being run in a reasonable and responsible manner.

As things stand now, rather than having the auditor general perform an audit of the foundation's books, perhaps the foundation could use the government's demonstrated standards of bookkeeping. Members must forgive me if I do not find that a particularly comforting thought. After all, for the last 10 years the auditor general has given his opinion on the financial statements of the Government of Canada.

During that period the government has flunked the exam seven times. Only three times has the auditor general been able to give a passing grade to the government's bookkeeping. That is a terrible average. It gets even worse if we look back further than just 10 years. The former auditor general could give only one clear opinion during his entire 10 year term.

If the government is to hold the foundation to those standards we are in for more mismanagement and bungling, for we know how fond those Liberal members are of spending money without requiring any sort of framework, authorization or even paperwork. I had hoped they had learned their lesson.

No one doubts the intention of the bill. It is sound. I would have supported an organization that exists to promote the development of new technologies to assist in sustainable development, including those technologies that address climate change and air quality issues.

Canada has some serious climate change issues that need to be addressed. Since the government is already committed to a certain course of action, we had better start producing rather than just talking about it.

Descriptions of the bill contain all sorts of glorious sounding intentions. For example, the fund will encourage innovation by helping companies develop new technologies and bring them to market. The fund will complement other federal programs, build on efforts to engage external partners, and promote the efficient use of resources and technologies.

According to the government new technologies developed by this fund will provide the opportunity for Canadians to access the opportunity side of the climate change equation. Again I have to question the bill. The government is making taxpayer dollars available on extremely vague criteria. Is that what it means by opportunities being created?

My impression is that the opportunities being created were supposed to be for the development of new technologies that would benefit all Canadians, not for the friends of the government to benefit simply from the receipt of Canadian tax dollars.

The foundation will be composed of fifteen members. The fifteen members of the foundation are assembled first and seven are appointed by the governor in council who then appoints eight other members. The chair and six members of the board are then appointed by the governor in council, and those seven people appoint eight other members for the board. Both the foundation and the board have fifteen members and fourteen of the total thirty members are handpicked by cabinet.

The chair and directors of the board are eligible for five year terms. Directors and members can be reappointed for one or more terms. It all sounds rather cushy to me. If someone has a friend in the right place, he or she could be appointed to the foundation.

There are two rather frightening aspects to this process. Just as the chairperson, directors and members are appointed by the governor in council, they can also be removed for cause by the governor in council. Notice that reads cause, not just cause.

If members of the foundation are to be kept on at the whim of cabinet or the Prime Minister, what are the chances that they will ever make a decision independently? For example, what if the chairperson makes a reasonable but unpopular decision and turns down a grant to a friend of the Prime Minister? Will that person then be removed from the board?

What if a director recommends that a project be denied but the chairperson is a Liberal crony? Would that be considered cause? What if a member is doing a terrible job but is a close friend of the Prime Minister or the privy council? Does the member then get to keep the job and the money and cannot be removed by anybody but the Prime Minister?

We have certainly heard many examples in the House recently about the Prime Minister and how he can assert his influence over those he personally appoints.

I do not think I have to tell anybody about the issue of the governor of the Business Development Bank and about the billion dollar boondoggle in Human Resources Development Canada where ministerial interference directed money to constituencies and to organizations that did not meet the criteria of the program. Those issues are fairly well known by everyone in the House and I would expect fairly well known by everyone across the country.

We had hoped that at least there would be some safeguards against this practice in the bill, but unfortunately those safeguards are sadly lacking.

Another concern regarding the way the foundation will be staffed relates to the provisions for expertise in its chairperson. The bill states that the appointment of directors is supposed to ensure expertise of its directors and that the board should be representative of persons engaged in the development and demonstration of technologies to promote sustainable development. Curiously, though, the bill makes no such provision for the appointment of the chairperson.

It seems to me that the bill is just leaving the door wide open for patronage and just waiting for some friend of the Prime Minister to walk through.

I also have some concerns regarding how members of the foundation will be compensated for their contributions. The bill states that the directors may be paid remuneration that is fixed by the foundation's bylaws and that they are entitled to be paid reasonable travel and living expenses incurred by them in the performance of their duties.

If the board is setting their own bylaws, where are the checks against unreasonable salaries? It sounds like a great opportunity for these appointed cronies to find themselves a tidy, new source of cash.

The House will remember Ted Weatherhill and his expense account. He is the bureaucrat who charged Canadian taxpayers $21,000 in three years for his travelling expenses. Certainly he was entitled to collect reasonable expenses for the job he was doing for the government. Perhaps the possibility of that happening exists under this foundation. Those could hardly be considered by anyone to be reasonable expenses. Even the Liberals who fired him over the issue did not think his expenses were reasonable.

At least there is some mention of the salaries of directors in the bill. Bill C-4 makes no mention of the chairperson's salary and how it will be determined. Quite frankly with the way the government likes to throw money at its friends, I would just as soon not leave this sort of thing up to chance.

At the beginning of my comments I made mention of my concerns regarding the financial operations of the foundation. I would like to take some time to expand somewhat on those concerns. The bill is terribly vague on how its financial operations will work. I have to question exactly how the foundation intends to sustain its financial viability without an ongoing infusion of taxpayer dollars?

The bill states that the board shall establish investment policies, standards and procedures that a reasonably prudent person would apply with respect to a portfolio of investment to avoid an undue risk of loss and obtain a reasonable return. I wonder if the same standards of investment will be used as those that guide Canada pension plan investments. If so, the financial stability of the foundation is doomed.

On February 15, 2001, the CPP fund, made up of $41.6 billion in assets invested mostly in bonds, reported a $453 million loss on stock investments in its fiscal third quarter.

In the bill currently before the House the government is trying to prevent public scrutiny of how the Canada pension plan fund is performing. It seems to me that this fund made up of billions of taxpayer dollars is just a bit too large to sweep under the carpet. At the very least it would make a large lump in the carpet that would be pretty tough to ignore.

If this is the pattern that the foundation will follow, we might as well go ahead and buy ourselves some gas masks because there will be little progress on the development of climate change science and technology.

There are many serious problems with the legislation. I would like to know why we need this new Liberal friendly and expensive bureaucracy when there are many other funding vehicles already in place that could accomplish the same goals.

There are regional development groups that receive federal funding and have local boards which approve high risk investments and give loans. There is also the Federal Business Development Bank. All these groups are under the purview of the Auditor General of Canada. They could cover the responsibilities of the foundation and prevent establishing another expensive bureaucratic mess.

While I am sure the Prime Minister would like to ensure that his friends retire comfortably, when it comes to taxpayer dollars I would like to see a better guarantee of an open, accountable, transparent and responsible organization than what this confusing legislation would suggest.

Before my colleagues across the floor accuse me of being anti-environment, I should like to quote from the Canadian Alliance policy which states:

We are committed to protecting and preserving Canada's natural environment and endangered species, and to sustainable development of our abundant natural resources for the use of current and future generations. Therefore we will strike a balance between environmental preservation and economic development. This includes creating partnerships to promote meaningful progress in the area of environmental protection.

Clearly the Canadian Alliance is in favour of taking steps to ensure cleaner air through new technologies. However, as I have already mentioned, this foundation has the potential to be so riddled with patronage that little if anything meaningful will be accomplished.

The Canadian Alliance believes, as the auditor general indicated in his latest report to parliament, that government agencies, boards and commissions must be staffed with competent, experienced people who are appointed through an open and accountable process based on merit. Quite frankly there is sadly little merit present in either this bill or the foundation it will create.

It is because of the lack of merit shown in the many ways I have mentioned that I will be voting against the legislation. I urge other members of the House to do the same.

Committees Of The House

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. There have been consultations in connection with amendments to the report of the justice committee tabled in the House earlier this week.

I understand there would be unanimous consent to deem the first report of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to be changed so that the reference to “line 16 on page 26” is altered to “line 9 on page 25” and the reference to “line 2 on page 41” is altered to “line 9 on page 40” in English and to “line 6 on page 40 in French”.

In advance of receiving consent I thank the members of each opposition party.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-4, an act to establish a foundation to fund sustainable development technology, be read the third time and passed.

Canada Foundation For Sustainable Development Technology Act

[Gurmant Grewal, Canadian Alliance, Surrey Central, BC]

Madam Speaker, the people of Surrey Central are pleased to have me participate in the debate today concerning the establishment of a foundation to fund sustainable development technology.

In the 2000 federal budget the Liberals announced that they would be creating a sustainable development technology fund. They earmarked $100 million as the amount of initial funding. They are proposing a foundation to administer these funds. In the debate today we are disappointed that the committee hearings on the bill did not result in the Auditor General of Canada overseeing the books of the foundation.

I will quickly review what the foundation is supposed to do. The sustainable development technology foundation is allegedly to operate at arm's length from the government. It is to be operated as a not for profit organization. It will administer funding primarily to projects related to greenhouse gas reduction and improving air quality.

The foundation will dole out funds on a project by project basis. The foundation will accept proposals from existing and new collaborative arrangements among technology developers, suppliers, users, universities, not for profit organizations, and organizations such as industrial associations and research institutes. The government originally expected that the foundation would be in place by March 2001.

The people of Surrey Central support this initiative. We believe that this is the kind of thing where our government should be taking the lead. I would venture to say that members on all sides of the House want to protect Canada's environment and work on projects related to greenhouse gas reduction and improving air quality. Our children certainly want that. We want our children and grandchildren to have that.

Canadian Alliance policy supports these kinds of sustainable development initiatives. I want to make that absolutely clear by stating our policy. We are committed to protecting and preserving Canada's natural environment and endangered species and to the sustainable development of our abundant natural resources for the use of current and future generations.

Therefore we will strike a balance between environmental preservation and economic development. This includes creating partnerships with provincial governments, private industry, educational institutions and the public to promote meaningful progress in the area of environmental protection. That is the policy we have pledged to follow when we form the next government.

As a government the Liberals have mismanaged our environment and failed to provide sustainable development. This weak Liberal government has signed international treaties including Kyoto, Beijing and Rio, with no intention whatsoever of carrying out those commitments.

The government has made political decisions about matters that require scientific decisions. The conservation of fish species was based on political decisions, not on scientific evidence or scientific research. The safety of the bovine growth hormone was influenced by political pressure and political interference rather than by scientific evidence and research.

The government is too busy trying to garner votes and counter Canadian Alliance policy rather than allowing scientific principles and evidence to drive the efforts to protect our environment and meet our international commitments.

Since 1993 the Liberals have been promising Canadians that they were going to pass endangered species legislation, which of course died twice on the order paper. After seven or eight years, what do we have? We have another bill they are promising to pass.

The endangered species bill they are proposing is an assault on property owners in Canada. It is confiscation without compensation. It is hard to imagine. It is so undemocratic that it is anti-democratic, but that is another story for another day.

This weak Liberal government that lacks vision really has done nothing in terms of initiatives for our environment and sustainable development since 1993. Other countries have passed legislation and are way ahead. Even the United Nations itself has a sustainable development office, but the Liberals allow Canada to once again be left behind.

The bill was originally introduced as part of budget 2000, delivered almost a year ago. Now, after a year of doing nothing, the government wants the bill to pass through the House and the Senate as soon as possible and receive royal assent so it can dole out $100 million. Is this simple mismanagement or is it indicative of the usual way the government operates? It could not care less about debate in the House. It does not hesitate to use closure or time allocation to ram any bill through.

At any rate, it is important to note that the official opposition wants to support the bill today, but we wanted to see some amendments as well. We would have supported the bill one year ago, but the government did not allow it to go forward until this month, at least one year late if we use the Liberal government budget 2000 agenda, and seven or eight years late according to the red book one promise.

Let me talk about suggestions we have for the Liberals concerning the bill. Our suggestions really do not have anything to do with the sustainable development aspect of the bill. The amendments needed do not have anything to do with the projects related to greenhouse gas reductions or improving air quality.

Our amendments have to do with the Liberal Party's arrogance. Canadians are very uncomfortable with patronage, which denies them transparency and accountability.

Let me read a simple paragraph from Canadian Alliance policy:

We believe that a non-partisan civil service, an independent judiciary and competent leadership of government agencies, boards and commissions are vital in a democracy. We will therefore ensure appointments to these positions are made through an open and accountable process based on merit.

The Liberals are proposing to turn the sustainable development foundation into a Liberal patronage pork barrel. The people of Surrey Central and I are dismayed. We are disappointed that the government would take such a wonderful initiative of supporting projects related to greenhouse gas reductions and improving air quality and turn the efforts into some kind of Liberal Party payoff.

The Liberals are trying to arrange it so that the chairperson and a minority number of directors and members are appointed by the governor in council. They then appoint the remaining members to complete the 15 person board of directors. Obviously the foundation will become another Liberal patronage plum. When will the Liberals evolve in the new millennium and put a stop to these kinds of 17th century old boys' club practices? When will they abandon the politics of exclusion? When will they stop implementing their systems of disenfranchisement?

The patronage practices of the government are virtually fascist by strict political definition. The Canadian Alliance will put a stop to this sort of thing when it forms the next government.

The creation of a sustainable development foundation is something all Canadians have wanted for years. The Liberals are turning it into some kind of arena for political payoffs. What a shame.

Let me talk about the auditing of the foundation. Again, while the foundation would provide an annual report to parliament, the foundation would appoint its own auditors and have final approval on the financial reports before they are made public. While the legislation does not set out rules as to who would be eligible to be the auditor, the government refuses to allow the Auditor General of Canada access to the foundation's books.

It is no wonder that the government does not want the office of the Auditor General of Canada involved. It knows that the auditor general has been very critical of its practices. The Liberals have had a difficult ride with the outgoing auditor general. His most recent report was probably his most scathing indictment yet of the government. Each auditor general's report on the mismanagement of the Liberal government is worse than the previous one.

The official opposition wants these issues, the question of who will audit the foundation and the question of how appointments will be made to the foundation, dealt with. We ask the government to look at these issues seriously. These are non-partisan, good suggestions. We will not allow these two concerns to be swept under the carpet by the Liberals. Based on these two things, we have to oppose the bill and we do not want to have to do that.

Another issue, our environment, is the most important thing that the House of Commons could be dealing with. Debates on the environment speak to the very future of the human race on this planet. All else really pales in comparison when we view what other subjects we could be debating in the House of Commons. Bill C-4 is a good example of the weaknesses of the government when it comes to the issue of sustainable development.

I would also point out that in regard to the idea of creating a new foundation of this sort the government does not really talk about where it would be based and what centre it would be working out of. It actually puts into question the future of the International Institute for Sustainable Development, located in Winnipeg. We already have one institute for sustainable development and its future is in jeopardy.

I participated in the second reading debate of the bill and was very interested in the remarks of my colleague from Winnipeg Centre. He has some serious concerns about the hidden agenda of the Liberal government when it comes to the future of the sustainable development centre in his riding. I share his concerns.

The institute was created years ago and has had its funding reduced year after year, to the point where it is really a shadow of its former self. There was a time when it had a staff of 140 people and its own building. It now occupies a very small office, with maybe a handful of people, on the third floor of a nondescript office building in the centre of downtown Winnipeg. We wonder if the government has completely forgotten it already has an institute for sustainable development. Maybe the Liberals are threatening to axe what is left of the International Institute for Sustainable Development.

We have to compare the $100 million figure that the Liberals have given us in Bill C-4 to cover the issue of sustainable development with the government putting $1.3 billion into a very narrow and fixed program, a one time payment to offset energy costs for Canadians. The government missed the target with that one as well, sending cheques to students, prisoners, MPs and deceased Canadians but not to those who pay the heating bills.

Getting back to the institute in Winnipeg, if there is $100 million to spend, why would the government not restore the institute to its former stature, that of a world leader, research centre and resource library for anyone interested in the whole concept of energy conservation or sustainable development? Why not enhance the Winnipeg facility as a centre of excellence right in the centre of Canada and become world leaders so we can export the technology?

In conclusion, once again we have the Liberals taking an initiative, one that everyone would want to support, the creation of a sustainable development foundation, but what do they do? They turn it into a venue for patronage payoffs and they close the books to the auditor general. They want to control the $100 million they are giving to the foundation without anyone else finding out which Liberal Party donors receive the bulk of the $100 million.

It would be amazing if it were not so sad. The people of Surrey Central, who want to support the creation of the sustainable development foundation, do not want to support the bill because of the way the Liberals are playing politics with it. If the Liberals are prepared to fix the flaws and the corruption they have written into the bill, then we would be more than happy to support it.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Madam Speaker, why a law to establish a foundation to fund sustainable development technology? The question arises: Why establish a foundation, especially one outside the government? I think this kind of question is totally relevant, especially since two things happened since yesterday which made me wonder even more about the reason for this foundation.

The first thing happened yesterday during the debate on Bill C-209 brought forward by my distinguished colleague from Jonquière, for whom I have the utmost respect because of her mind as well as her heart. The member for Jonquière presented a bill calling for a tax deduction to encourage greater use of public transit.

In his reply, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance said that it was an excellent initiative on the part of the member. I was amazed to hear him say that. I thought it was a great start. It was great, but it did not last.

He immediately went on to sing the praise of all government policies regarding the environment, air quality and so on, to brag about the hundreds of thousands of dollars and even the billions of dollars invested in these areas, all that to say, in the end, that he would not support the bill because it was too simple.

As simple as Bill C-209 may have been, it could have had a major impact on climate change, thus on sustainable development.

In a previous political life, as an alderman in Sherbrooke, I sat for several years on the Sherbrooke area transport commission. Many studies were carried out on road transport—especially on motor vehicle transport versus public transit—and I noticed that the impact was significant.

Depending on economic cycles, ridership varied according to the subsidies the public transit system got. Of course, there were operation subsidies and capital grants.

We were promoting public transit, but ridership varied depending on the economy cycle. When subsidies started to drop and the price of cars started to go down or rebates were offered with no freight fees and 0% interest, people stopped using public transit.

Instead of spending millions of dollars to establish a foundation, the government could have supported or should support the bill brought forward by my colleague from Jonquière in order to improve ridership. But I gather that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance does not understand a thing about the Hygrade sausage principle: the more you eat...

[Jocelyne Girard-Bujold, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

The more you eat it, the more you like it, and the more you like it, the more you eat it.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Even I had forgotten how it went. I had a memory lapse.

[An hon. member]

Increase the supply and the demand will increase.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

That is right. And the same applies to public transit. We must encourage the use of public transit and make sure that when Bill C-209 is brought back to the House for debate in a short while, the government will invest in the proposed initiative.

Another thing surprised me. This morning at the Standing Committee of Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources, we heard the parliamentary secretary. He talked about climate changes. We also heard about the Kyoto protocol.

The government says it is prepared to invest hundreds of millions, even billions of dollars in some areas. It will also invest $100 million in the foundation. We were supposed to achieve major reduction of greenhouse gas emissions based on 1990 levels. But the fact of the matter is that there has been a 13% increase based on those levels. Not only did we not reduce our emissions, but we increased them by 13% even though the government told us that it had invested huge amounts in support of sustainable development.

It is estimated that only one-third of the reduction objectives set in 1997 for the period between 2008 and 2012 will be met. We can see that on one hand the government refuses initiatives, as small as they may be, that would be highly effective in dealing with climate change, but, on the other hand, with the hundreds of millions and even the billions of dollars it has spent, it has not even managed to stabilize greenhouse gas emissions. In fact, it has only managed to increase them.

The bill to establish this foundation raises a lot of questions besides what we were able to observe in a relatively short time. In less than 24 hours we were able to see that the government is saying two different things but is not getting any results.

Of course the Bloc Quebecois is against the establishment of this foundation because it raises a lot of concerns, to which I will get back later on. I could go through them quickly.

There is the division of power and the fact that Quebec already has such a foundation. There is the concentration of power and the fact that the bill is rather vague in its definitions, which I would describe as risky, and so are the expressions used. There is also a huge disparity between the recommendations from the issue table and the bill.

Of course if we talk about the foundation itself, the objective pursued is certainly a lofty one. Sustainable development, the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions, air quality, are all lofty goals, but this bill is obviously not the tool we need to achieve results.

If we look at the situation in Quebec, I said earlier that there is indeed a concern with regard to the division of power. This bill seems to be another roundabout way for the federal government to interfere in areas of provincial jurisdiction.

Unfortunately, this bill is so broad in scope that it could enable the federal government to invest in an area that should be under Quebec and the other provinces' jurisdiction.

At first representatives from the other provinces could be supportive of the bill. They never take exception to the fact that the federal government gets involved in their jurisdictions and manages things for them. For Quebec, however, this is unacceptable.

During consideration at committee stage we prepared amendments effectively asking that Quebec be allowed to opt out of that foundation, with full compensation, because our province already has a foundation, the Fondation d'action québécoise pour le développement durable. The government invested close to $45 million in that foundation.

Allow me to digress for a moment. Earlier I referred to our discussions this morning at the standing committee on natural resources regarding the Kyoto protocol. It was mentioned that greenhouse gas emissions had increased by 13% in Canada. However, Quebec is the province with the lowest increase, with 7%. This is almost seven times less than the province with the highest increase.

So we feel that the foundation is effective. If it had an additional $25 million or so to promote technologies, the results would be even more conclusive.

As far as we are concerned the issue of the foundation is settled: we do not need it. All we need is money, because the needs are in Quebec. One also wonders about a foundation that is outside the government. The government would hardly have any control over it. Automatically there is also the element of concentration of powers.

The foundation can look after its own business itself, but we know that there is always an important link with the government—not with parliament—because it is the government that, to all intents and purposes, appoints the 15 directors. The bill provides that the first seven are appointed by the government and eight others by the directors themselves. We know that ultimately the government will be appointing all 15.

Today, certain people reminded me that when the government, the Prime Minister in particular, began establishing foundations or agencies with directors he himself appointed, he seemed to be rewarding his friends with plum appointments. If he has a lot of such appointments to hand out before leaving, maybe he should be leaving soon.

So here are another 15 friends he can introduce to the board of directors, 15 who, for all intents and purposes, will be accountable to the government. The government even has the right to remove them for cause.

The bill is rather vague with respect to the definition of “eligible project”. Does an eligible project to improve air quality mean that they will also fund projects having to do with nuclear technology, for instance? Nothing would appear to prohibit it, although this would run counter to the Kyoto agreement and nothing would indicate the contrary.

Who will, indirectly, draw up the eligibility criteria? The government as well, but the foundation will never be accountable to parliament. It was this that prompted a major amendment. This amendment called for the auditor general to be able to audit the foundation in order to evaluate its performance against objectives, the way in which funds were distributed, and whether such distribution was cost-effective.

Even before that amendment was proposed a request had been made to ask the auditor general to appear before the standing committee on natural resources.

We can see the impact that visit would have had on the drafting of various clauses and changes to be made to the bill. The auditor general has repeatedly criticized the fact that appointments made by the Prime Minister and the government are more often than not based on partisanship rather than merit. The risk is still there.

Had the auditor general appeared before the committee to assess the bill, he could have suggested changes to avoid these near conflicts of interest that can exist between the government and a so-called independent foundation.

[Jocelyne Girard-Bujold, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Transparency.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Yes, as my distinguished colleague and member for Jonquière just said, it goes to a matter of transparency. It could have ensured some degree of transparency.

For these various reasons the Bloc Quebecois will not be supporting the bill. We could perhaps have supported it had all our amendments been accepted in committee. At any rate, with part of them not having been approved, we already knew then that we would not be supporting this bill. Quebec has its own foundation. The only thing we would be willing to accept is a transfer of available funds for the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions to promote sustainable development.

[Gerald Keddy, Progressive Conservative, South Shore, NS]

Madam Speaker, before I start to debate I would like to raise a point of order. You recognized me to speak earlier and I sat down because the Bloc member had not actually put his name on the debate schedule. I believe I did have the floor.

I would like to have my 15 minutes to speak. I am the only opposition member of parliament who has an amendment to the bill. I feel I have some things to add to the debate on the bill. I would ask unanimous consent of the House to finish my comments.