Debates of April 5th, 2001

The House resumed from April 2 consideration of the motion that Bill C-17, an act to amend the Budget Implementation Act, 1997 and the Financial Administration Act, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Budget Implementation Act, 1997

[Ken Epp, Canadian Alliance, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank you for that clarification. I appreciate that you compensate for my inabilities. I am surrounded by people who do that for me and I really am appreciative.

I would like to say at the outset that Bill C-17, the act we are now debating, is an act to amend the Budget Implementation Act, 1997. This is an act that has been around for almost four years, and we are now going to amend it. It deals with the implementation of the 1997 budget.

Over the last number of years we have had a number of these bills. About a year or so ago we debated an implementation bill that extended back 10 years. It just so happens that the finances of the government are done with the announcement of them in a budget by the finance minister and that makes them law. Then afterward we do it. We tax the people and take the money from them. If the budget includes the giving of grants the money is given, and so on. Eventually we get around to passing what we have actually done.

It seems to me that perhaps some of these things should be done in a more expeditious manner. We would not have the problem of people not really knowing where they stand on different issues.

I would like to talk a bit about Bill C-17 and about the whole idea of budgets and finances of the government in general.

First, one of the features of the bill is it increases funding for research and development. I do not think there are very many Canadians who would not acknowledge the importance of research and development. As a matter of fact over the centuries our standard of living has increased based on the things that people have invented and discovered. Sometimes these discoveries are by accident and sometimes they are very methodically carried forward with years of developmental research. Finally, they zero in on exactly what needs to be done to achieve a certain goal, for example, in the health area.

Many decades ago I remember reading about Madame Curie who invented the x-ray. An interesting thing happened. She put a uranium source in the same drawer as some film and lo and behold the film was clouded. Therefore, she was able to deduce from that that the radiation from the source caused an effect on the film which is of course a chemical reaction.

That was the beginning of being able to analyze what was going on in a person's body, whether healthy or ill. Usually of course this is done for reasons of illness or for injury. We are able to examine what is happening without having to perform surgery. Many times, especially over the last 40 or 50 years, it has still been necessary to perform surgery to see what was going on.

I remember a very pivotal event in my life when I broke my ankle on July 1, 1968. I was out with a bunch of boys at a children's camp. I was acting as a counsellor for a couple of days. I took these boys out for a hike and we jumped a fence. I do not know, Mr. Speaker, if you even want to contemplate that. It conjures strange images I am sure when thinking of me jumping a fence, but I did. Unfortunately, when I landed I was in a twisting motion and my ankle broke. I had to hobble back to camp. It was quite a task for a guy my weight to get back since I have always been heavy. It was probably close to a kilometre from where we were to get back to camp. I had to go all that distance on one leg with a makeshift crutch because these little boys could in no way carry me. I am sure everyone understands that.

When I got to the hospital, my leg did not have to be cut off. Although one of the guys at the youth camp had suggested it as soon as I hobbled into camp. He said to some of the others “Hey guys, get the axe. We have to amputate”. We had a little laugh about that.

The first thing they did at the hospital was to x-ray my leg. They determined the ankle was broken and proceeded to put it into what turned out to be an extremely painful cast. I suffered for six weeks in a cast. It was almost two years before my ankle was back to normal. At the best of times my ankles have to work pretty hard in order to carry the burden that is assigned to them. As a result of research they were able to determine how bad my ankle was damaged without having to cut the skin open and get in there and probe.

However, in my own short lifetime I remember a number of occasions where people have had an illness or an injury.

In order to diagnose it they had to do what was in those years called exploratory surgery. It is still done occasionally but much less now. What started out as medical research leading to x-rays many years ago has since developed into other diagnostic tools, including audio diagnosis, CAT scans and magnetic resonance imaging or MRIs. All these different techniques for getting a picture of what is inside a person are very useful. These techniques are a result of very careful research, development and testing.

The question is where the money for the research should come from. I was an academic earlier in my life. I went to university and those were probably the best years of my life. I had more time then, and I say that with all due respect to the pages who are very busy now as students. I had more time then to read books just for the fun of reading them than I have now with the business of life that happens when one accepts adult and family responsibilities and all other things that go with them.

In my career as a student and later on as an educator in a technical institute I always felt that there was a proper role for the use of public funds to fund research and development. One example would be the academic research environment in a university working in conjunction with perhaps the Medical Research Council of Canada. In Alberta we have a very strong Alberta Research Council in Edmonton and Calgary. I am specifically familiar with the one in Edmonton but there is also one in Devon. Each one does different kinds of research and some of it is the medical research I have already talked about.

A lot of research goes into the processing and refining of oil products in Alberta. The council looks at more efficient ways of using energy so that our non-renewable resources are treated carefully and we do not run out of them.

These research projects are very worthwhile. Although there is a proper role for the funding of many of these projects by private enterprise, and that happens big time, there is a role for the use of public funds through the universities, through the research councils and through all the different granting institutions we have developed in the last number of years.

One thing that has happened in Bill C-17 is that there will be an addition to the Canada foundation for innovation. Whereas before it had $500 million in its budget based on the mini budget of the Minister of Finance last fall, the bill would now add another $750 million, making the total $1.25 billion for research. That part of the bill is very worthwhile.

I am rather surprised that you are giving me a signal for time, Mr. Speaker. It was my impression that I had a 20 minute time slot and I am prepared to speak for 20 minutes.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Price)]

It was a 10 minute speech and the hon. member split his time with the speaker who spoke last on it.

[Ken Epp, Canadian Alliance, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I was not aware that I was splitting my time. I thought I was the first recognized speaker. May I have consent to continue my speech for another 10 minutes as I have only finished half of the introduction?

[The Deputy Speaker]

If I could assist the hon. member for Elk Island, the colleague with whom he was sharing his time was the member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca. He would have had a few minutes left on questions and comments. He was not able to be here at this time and so we continued debate with the hon. member for Elk Island for the remaining 10 minutes of that period.

The member for Elk Island was also asking if he could have unanimous consent to continue his speech for 10 minutes. Does he have unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I was listening with quite an interest to what my colleague from Elk Island was saying. Since members on the governing side would not give him any time to continue with his speech, and I do not know what they are afraid of, I would like to hear what he has to say in the remaining five minutes.

[Ken Epp, Canadian Alliance, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for bailing me out because I do wish to address some of my concerns. I have spoken in support of the idea of funding research and development, especially with respect to medical research that improves our standard of living. That is something we have to do.

We also have to recognize the fact that Canadians right now are in dire straits when it comes to research and development. The bill does not address that and the government should start addressing it big time.

Pouring money into research and development is one thing, but one also has to develop the whole culture of research and development. That happens in an academic environment by being surrounded with people of like mind and of equal great ability. It occurs when we have places of research which are outstanding in their ability and which attract the best in the world.

One of our huge problems is that researchers get paid in Canadian dollars. The bill would increase the initial funding of $550 million by $750 million, which is more than doubling it. All that does is compensate for the fact that our researchers and scientists are paid in Canadian dollars. It means the increase is necessary to compete with our American neighbours, for example.

Currency is a very important aspect of the bill, but the expenditure is nothing but a cover-up by the government. It covers up the government policies which have brought us such an extremely low Canadian dollar. It puts us at a disadvantage when competing for the brains and bodies of the brightest in the world.

I would also like to make a point about the bookkeeping process. Over the seven or more years that I have been here now, I have seen too often how the government uses the opportunity to put into budgets things that would use up the current surplus without properly accounting for them. No other businessperson in Canada could do that. I could not as an owner of a trucking company say that in the next five years I need 10 new trucks, buy two trucks per year for the next five years and bill them all in this year's budget because I have a surplus and thus reduce my income tax.

Accounting principles and the income tax law do not permit it, yet the government does it over and over again. This one time expenditure extended over the next five years will be totally billed to this year's budget. That is a sleight of accounting hand and the finance minister should be chastized. The government has done that too often.

The government did the same thing with the millennium scholarships. In 1998 the government introduced a $3 billion millennium scholarship fund which it was to use to help win the next election. It seems to have worked. It was billed in 1998, spread out over the next three years and very little of it paid out until the election year. Most of it was spent during the election year or leading up to the election. I take personal umbrage at that. It is offensive and it ought not to happen.

In summary, we support the objectives of the Canada foundation for innovation. We believe the money expended should be properly accounted for, not just booking it in the fiscal year just ending. We believe the government is wasting time in parliament bringing in amendments that should have been done properly if it would have done the legislative work correctly, because some of the other amendments addressed that.

I have some happiness with the fact that the minister has pulled back from the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board but I deeply wish the Canada pension board would be subject to an audit by the Auditor General of Canada.

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to rise on behalf of the New Democratic Party to take part in the debate on Bill C-17.

I must be clear from the beginning on what we are debating here today. We are debating an anti-democratic, unparliamentary, omnibus bill. The two parts of the bill have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

The first part of the bill appropriates funds for the Canada foundation for innovation. The second part makes amendments to the Financial Administration Act, which has nothing to do with the Canada foundation for innovation. Both issues are separate and should be dealt with in two separate bills.

In the time that I have had the honour to serve my constituents and the Canadian people in the House, I have worked on quite a few bills. Currently I am my party's critic for industry, transportation and infrastructure. I have also been the treasury board critic and housing critic and have worked on bills in those areas. I have also worked on bills, which were of particular interest to the constituents in my riding: everything from health and justice to aboriginal affairs.

I have worked on a lot of bills, and what concerns me is that the more bills I see the more common it is becoming for the Liberal government to introduce these kinds of omnibus bill. This is not a rare occurrence. This is not something the government does once in a while. It does this all the time now, although it says it is for very good reasons.

The Liberal government does not want to let parliament properly debate and scrutinize its legislation so it just slaps a bunch of completely unrelated items together and makes us vote on them all as a package. This is not a transparent and democratic process.

What is so anti-democratic about the bill? Well, as I said earlier, it has two parts. The first part would appropriate funds for the Canada foundation for innovation and the second part would amend the Financial Administration Act.

The problem is that we, in the NDP, support part one, dealing with the Canada foundation for innovation, but we oppose part two, the amendments to the Financial Administration Act.

By putting these two completely unrelated items together in one bill, we are being forced to vote against something that we like and support, the Canada foundation for innovation.

To register our opposition to the government's changes to the Financial Administration Act, we must vote against the whole bill. Members in the House, not just from the New Democratic Party but from all parties, cannot accurately represent the views of their constituents by voting on these two completely different issues together.

I will now say a few words about the parts of the bill that we would otherwise support before I move on to the reasons that we will be opposing the bill.

We support increasing the funding for the Canada foundation for innovation. The foundation does important work to support research and development in Canada's universities, hospitals, community colleges and other public and non-profit agencies.

Canada has a clear deficit in the area of research and development compared to most other members of the G-8 and this deficit has been made worse by the Liberal government's massive cuts to post-secondary education. The Canada foundation for innovation helps in a small way toward overcoming the research and development deficit. My fellow New Democratic Party MPs and I support the work it is doing.

We have heard from representatives of different areas of science and research on the industry committee about the money that was finally put into research and development. I was extremely impressed with the work they have done in such a very short period of time to promote Canadian research and development in science and technology.

I have been truly impressed by the fact that 75% of people involved in these areas are educated in Canadian schools. It is extremely impressive, I must admit. I did not realize it until I was part of the industry committee.

We have gone in the right direction and put federal dollars into research and development. We do not risk creating an environment where, as in the U.S., only the commercialization of science and research and development is able to succeed. We will finally support those programs.

It would be nice if the federal government had kept this issue separate from the other. We have a few ideas on how to improve the foundation's work and I hope we will be able to address them as the bill progresses.

As my colleague from the Alliance has mentioned, it would be nice if the foundation were reviewed by the auditor general. That is what the auditor general recommended, but it is not the case. As a result there has been criticism that the process is not transparent.

I recognize that representatives from the foundation who came before the industry committee were working among themselves to ensure a transparent process. We heard questions from my Alliance colleague about the improper spending of government dollars. There were suggestions that there is government intervention as to where the dollars go. We therefore need a transparent process.

In spite of Canadians not having faith in our democratic system, politicians, the government and specifically the Prime Minister, and believe me they do not, I would wager a fair chunk that they have faith in the auditor general. They have faith in the integrity of the past auditor general and I hope they will have faith in the new auditor general.

One does not hear criticism of the auditor general's reports or of his integrity. Canadians have faith in the auditor general and in the position that he holds, and I hope that will continue. We should listen to the auditor general's recommendation to have the foundation reviewed. As I said, there is not necessarily a problem. However to have faith in the system and ensure public dollars are spent wisely and legally we must do so.

Part 2 of the bill, the changes to the Financial Administration Act, governs the rules for borrowing by government departments, agencies and certain crown corporations to make them more accountable to the Department of Finance. That is a good thing. It closes a loophole that needs to be closed. What we in the New Democratic Party object to specifically and very strongly is clause 6 of the bill which adds the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board to the list of crown corporations exempted from the Financial Administration Act.

My fellow NDP MPs and I do not support exempting the CPP Investment Board from the Financial Administration Act. The CPP Investment Board is not like the CBC or the Bank of Canada. It does not need to be arm's length from the government. We believe that the crown corporation entrusted with investing the hard earned pension money of Canadians should not be exempt from democratic oversight.

We said the same thing when the CPP Investment Board was created by the government a few years ago and we stand by that today. This is the pension money of Canadians. It is what many Canadians will rely on in their retirement years. For many people it is pretty much all they will rely on.

The corporation entrusted with that money ought to be responsible to the Canadian people, not to a government appointed investment board. However it is not. The way the Liberals have set up the corporation, the only people it will be responsible to are bankers on Bay Street. That is a dangerous way to treat the hard earned pension money of Canadians. By the time my three kids reach retirement age they will look back on how today's Liberal government handled the Canada pension plan and say that it was a mistake to set up it up as the CPP Investment Board.

My party colleagues and I indicated that we believe pension dollars should be invested into ethical funds and ethical investments. What is the reasoning of a government which promotes healthy living and anti-smoking but allows the CPP to invest in tobacco companies?

What is the reasoning behind that? What is the reasoning behind the board's investment in Talisman, the energy company which is tearing itself through Sudan and which is, from my perspective, certainly a part of the carnage taking place within that country?

I take offence to even a penny of my pension dollars going to Talisman, Imperial Tobacco or any fund like that. As a citizen and a payer of pension dollars, I should be able to tell the government it cannot invest at least my share of CPP payments into those kinds of funds.

Believe it or not, some of us feel strongly enough about the issue to forsake the increased profit of selling tobacco to people in China. As the domestic tobacco market shrinks due to growing public awareness of its health risks, I do not want our dollars to promote it anywhere else in the world.

In conclusion, I reiterate my party's opposition to the bill even though there are parts of it we like. It is extremely disheartening that we cannot support the setting aside of money for the Canada foundation for innovation. We are not able to support it because we must vote on the bill in its entirety. Although we support the setting aside of money for science, research and development, we stand clearly and strongly for a democratically accountable CPP investment board which answers to parliament, and the bill does not provide for that.

I restate once again my profound displeasure with the government for bringing forward these measures in an anti-democratic and unparliamentary omnibus bill. It should have brought in two or three separate bills to allow each issue to be voted on separately. It once again shows the Liberal government's profound contempt for democracy. It is something Canadian people will not let the government get away with forever.

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise on behalf of the constituents of Calgary East to speak to Bill C-17. My colleague from the NDP quite rightly pointed out that a lot of things are wrong with the bill. We agree with many of the issues she raised today.

She said the bill was anti-democratic. I will make this observation. My colleague from Elk Island spoke prior to her. He addressed his concerns about the bill. Due to a mix up he thought he had 20 minutes to speak but he did not. As he did not have time to make all his points he asked for unanimous consent to be allowed to do so. Members from the government side refused.

What is the government afraid of? This is the house of democracy. The Liberals should let people speak. They are the governing party. They should show by example what is democracy. For the Liberals to deny my colleague his right to speak indicates they are afraid of something. They are afraid we will be able to show what is glaringly wrong. They are afraid of this coming out.

As my colleague from the NDP stated very clearly, the bill is anti-democratic because it has two parts, the Budget Implementation Act and the Financial Administration Act. She rightly pointed that it creates a problem for the opposition as to what it should support.

In reference to the Canada foundation for innovation, let me quote the Canadian Alliance policy of the last election. It stated:

We will appoint a Senior Advisor on Technology with private sector technology experience to report directly to the Prime Minister...We will bring the best ideas in business, government, and universities together to facilitate the transition to the new economy and position Canada as a global leader...We will increase support to Canada's research granting councils, and appoint a Chief Scientist of Canada to co-ordinate science activities in all government departments and ensure that science, not politics, prevails...We will increase Research and Development funding by $500 million.

As far as the Canadian Alliance and its members are concerned, we recognize the importance of technology and of supporting research with public dollars. Our nation has a proud history of producing excellent scientists. Our record shows we are quite capable of being the best in the world.

Everyone in Canada is extremely proud of Drs. Banting and Best who invented insulin for the treatment of diabetes and changed thousands of lives around the world. That is highly commendable and Canada is quite rightly proud of it.

We do not lack brains. We do not lack men of distinction in our nation. We agree with the government that it should support technology and research.

The world is becoming smaller. Borders are disappearing. We are moving into an era of globalization and fewer borders. As borders diminish competition increases. As competition increases, nations that are poised to take advantage of innovation and new ideas are the nations that will progress.

Canada should position itself to take advantage of globalization in the coming years. If we do not, someone else will and at the end of the day we will be the losers. It would be a tragedy not to support it when we have such an intelligent workforce and such illustrious persons in our universities and research councils.

We have no problem supporting the first part of the bill, although we have some questions as to the amount. We say $500 million. The government says $750 million. There is a slight difference there but the objectives are the same. We feel that our overall policy of lower taxation, freer markets and less government interference would eventually see more dollars put into research facilities across the country.

As my colleague from the NDP stated, the second part of the bill, the Financial Administration Act, is where we have difficulty and why we will not support the bill. If the bill had been broken into two sections we would have supported the Budget Implementation Act with reference to the Canada foundation for innovation. However we have a problem with the Financial Administration Act.

Our difficulty arises with a lot of issues. First, the bill was brought forth to correct a legislative error. It is amazing that with all the bureaucrats, research staff and huge departments at the government's disposal it still makes legislative errors. It spends billions of dollars and cannot even make a bill that is right. It then must bring in another bill to correct the mistakes. When opposition members have the opportunity to show what is wrong, the government cuts debate short and does not allow us to speak.

Another reason we are opposing the bill is that the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board would be exempt from the Financial Administration Act. However, we do like the fact that there will be less ministerial intervention. We have been asking for less government and ministerial intervention. When there is government intervention, it spoils the good intention of a bill because it is packed with patronage. Good programs usually develop implementation problems due to unnecessary ministerial or government intervention. We are happy when we see less ministerial intervention.

We also have difficulty with the fact that the board would not be subject to the auditor general's review. The auditor general should have every right to do an audit when public funds are being used. Public funds have been sent to the government, in trust, to be used wisely and the only person who can advise the Canadian public that the money has been used wisely is the auditor general.

We look forward to the auditor general's report because he has shown time after time where the government has failed to use taxpayer money wisely. We are concerned that the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board would be exempt from the Financial Administration Act. The bill would also take away the auditor general's right to audit the board and that is unacceptable.

Similar to what was said by my colleague from the NDP, we have difficulty supporting the bill because it has two parts.

[John Duncan, Canadian Alliance, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the bill is undemocratic. This is the second time today that I find myself standing and talking about legislation that is undemocratic. That is the direction of the government.

I want to paraphrase a famous phrase because I do not remember the words exactly. Winston Churchill once said that democracy was very hard work but that it was the best governance system that we had. If we choose not to work hard at democracy then we will lose it.

The bill once again displays a malaise coming from the government in terms of how it approaches very important initiatives. There is nothing more important in what we do in this institution than to look after the revenue that is collected from taxpayers and purportedly spent for the greater good.

It is difficult to accept legislation that deals with two unrelated things. It was unnecessary. If we had dealt with the Canada foundation for innovation initiative separately, we could have approached it in a very professional manner. We could then have dealt with the rest of the bill, which would have been the appropriate way to do it.

I conclude that the government is using this as a political instrument. It would like the opposition to vote against it because then it could say that the opposition is opposed to the Canada foundation for innovation. That is absolutely not the case. We are opposed to the way that this came about.

In 1997 the Canada foundation for innovation was included in the deficit as if it were a liability even though the foundation did not exist at the end of that year. The government chose to include the $800 million as a liability. It was a total departure from previous accounting policies, practices and principles for the third year in a row, and in contrast to public sector accounting and auditing board guidelines.

The auditor general was very kind as he called it inappropriate accounting and a parliamentary oversight. Inappropriate accounting is a very strong criticism to come from an auditor and parliamentary oversight is very kind indeed, because we are still doing it. That criticism, which should be of major concern, is being ignored. It is being ignored deliberately and not just in this instance.

What do we have here? We have the Minister of Industry making an announcement of a $750 million spending initiative. We are not sure whether it is over ten years, or ten years plus or minus one or two, or some other factor. The government wants to set it all up as current liability and that is inappropriate accounting.

The government has now gone from the days when it was trying very hard to balance the national books, because we had a crisis in the making if we did not, to a position where we are spending $35 billion more than we did the year before last. Thirty-five billion dollars out of Canada's budget is a very steep increase. A lot of it is going out in end of fiscal year spending sprees that are not subject to the normal course of scrutiny which happens when we have a budget in the spring with all that goes into the preparation of the budget.

We have ministers near the end of the fiscal year making spending announcements prior to any parliamentary or legislative authority and operating under the assumption that they will get whatever they want out of this place because this place is just a rubber stamp. That is the way the government treats this place and that is very destructive.

Instead of bolstering, boosting and creating a progressive dynamic democratic institution, we are going backward. It happens time and time again. We have not had a government committed to democratic principles for a very long time.

There may be some historical reasons for that. We were a much more homogeneous country early in our history. We have always been a country with a small population in a large land. Governance was easier and it was more consensual. We were also a very centralized country, whereas today it is very clear that we are becoming less centralized because we are getting a lot more economic growth from outside central Canada.

When I was a young man we were taught that our major city was Montreal, Toronto was second, Vancouver was third and Winnipeg was fourth. Things are very different today. At least three of the top five financial cities in Canada are in western Canada. There has been a complete rejockeying of positions in cities like Montreal and Winnipeg.

This has changed the dynamics of the country much faster than our central bureaucracy or federal governments up until now have recognized. We need a government that works hard to make legislative initiatives and other initiatives fit into a modern, progressive and democratic model. Unfortunately that is not happening.

Our party would like a simple amendment to be made to the legislation. We would like to have the auditor general oversee on an ongoing basis the Canada foundation for innovation. That is not in the legislation. Unfortunately that is consistent with where the government is coming from. We would make that amendment to the bill and I would hope that government members would support it.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Deputy Speaker]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Deputy Speaker]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Deputy Speaker]

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Deputy Speaker]

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

[The Deputy Speaker]

Accordingly the vote is deferred until Monday, April 23, at the end of government orders.

The House resumed from March 27 consideration of the motion that Bill C-22, an act to amend the Income Tax Act, the Income Tax Application Rules, certain acts related to the Income Tax Act, the Canada Pension Plan, the Customs Act, the Excise Tax Act, the Modernization of Benefits and Obligations Act and another act related to the Excise Tax Act, be read the second time and referred to a committee.