Debates of May 10th, 2001

Canada Shipping Act, 2001

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I declare the motion carried.

(Motion agreed to, bill read the third time and passed)

The House resumed from May 2 consideration of the motion that Bill C-10, an act respecting the national marine conservation areas of Canada, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas Act

[Andy Burton, Canadian Alliance, Skeena, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak with great concern about the government's Bill C-10, an act respecting the national marine conservation areas of Canada. Before I comment on the areas of the bill that I find quite concerning, I would like to make the following statement.

I believe that Canada's natural heritage should be protected and that it is our responsibility to ensure a viable environment is passed on to our children and our children's children in perpetuity. However, I also believe that the very survival of many remote and coastal communities, particularly those in my riding in northern British Columbia, depend on natural resources.

British Columbia has been blessed with beauty and an abundance of natural resources, many would say more than enough to go around. Yes, we must protect our natural environment, but we must do so with the understanding that not all industry is harmful to the environment and that the economic sustainability of many coastal and remote communities hinges on their ability to extract or harvest those natural resources, be it fisheries, forestry, mining or drilling for fossil fuels. This is a reality we cannot overlook.

As members of the House undoubtedly know, the bill has had a rather difficult time making its way through parliament in the past.

An earlier form of the bill was introduced in the House of Commons during the 36th parliament as the then Bill C-48. It was referred to the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage which heard evidence in February and March of 1999. Bill C-48 then died on the order paper when parliament was prorogued.

It reappeared in the second session of the 36th parliament as Bill C-8. It made its way as far as report stage. Although it was amended slightly in committee, it too died on the order paper when parliament dissolved to the call of the October 2000 election.

Bill C-10 before us today is a reincarnation of both Bill C-48 and Bill C-8, taking into account the 1999 amendments.

I would venture to suggest that a lack of broad public consultation is the reason for previous versions of the bill being dumped from the government's legislative agenda in the past. I would say that it still needs much amending.

I do urge the government whip to allow her members to take a long hard look at the effects of the bill and allow their conscience to guide them in making much needed changes in committee and report stage.

At this time I would like to shift my attention away from the scope of the bill and narrow in on what I believe are some key areas of the bill.

To begin, let us take a close look at the preamble, specifically lines 4 to 10 in the government's definition of precautionary principle. The bill begins by stating:

Whereas the Government of Canada is committed to adopting the precautionary principle in the conservation and management of the marine environment so that, where there are threats of environmental damage, lack of scientific certainty is not used as a reason for postponing preventive measures;

The hon. members in the House today and the viewers at home may not realize that Bill C-10 considerably expands the concept of the precautionary principle. There is broad support for the wording of principle 15 of the 1991 Rio declaration on environment and development, which states:

In order to protect the environment, the precautionary approach shall be widely applied by States according to their capabilities. Where there are threats of serious or irreversible damage, lack of full scientific certainty shall not be used as a reason for postponing cost effective measures to prevent environmental degradation.

Members of the House should be concerned that since the precautionary principle guides the government in its decision making process, this substantially expanded version allows the government to essentially create marine conservation areas wherever it pleases; the definition is that broad.

By removing the words serious or irreversible when dealing with threat assessment, the government has carte blanche to decide what warrants a designation of a marine conservation area and what does not. This is not in accordance with the Rio declaration that Canada signed on to and, as such, is not an appropriate definition of the precautionary principle.

I would urge members of the House to demand the amendment of the definition. The precautionary principle is the guiding force determining what regions become marine conservation areas. It is not acceptable that this definition be expanded arbitrarily.

I am concerned with a few other clauses of the bill, which I believe either need to be amended or entirely deleted.

The government has said that the purpose of the bill is to establish the rules that will allow for the creation of national marine conservation areas to protect and conserve marine ecosystems that are representative of the 29 marine environments in Canada's coastal zones and the Great Lakes.

Unlike national parks, whose resources are fully protected, marine conservation areas are managed for sustainable use, except where forbidden by clause 13, which deals with the exploration and extraction of any and all mineral or other deposits within a marine conservation area.

The bill would allow for sustainable use within the marine conservation area, with a focus on recreation, tourism, education and research.

Currently, federal-provincial agreements are either in place or under consideration for four parks, representing five of the twenty-nine marine regions. The proposed Gwaii Haanas park on Queen Charlotte Shelf in the Hecate Strait marine regions is in my riding of Skeena. This park could represent an area roughly equivalent to one-sixth of my total riding.

I must say that there are those who believe the intent of the legislation is to forbid any form of development within marine conservation areas and, further, to go beyond protecting the original 29 marine regions the legislation was designed for and to create many more new marine conservation areas. This is of grave concern to me and to many other Canadians.

As is mentioned in the bill, these 29 marine conservation areas would be zoned for different uses. Some may be zoned strictly for tourism, others for science, and there are many who believe most of these marine conservation areas would severely restrict any human activity, but more specifically industrial activity.

Whatever the original intent of the bill may be, I would urge members to take specific notice of clause 13, which specifically forbids any mineral or inorganic resource extraction within all marine conservation areas. Allow me to quote from the bill in clause 13 on page 9:

No person shall explore for or exploit hydrocarbons, minerals, aggregates or any other inorganic matter within a marine conservation area.

I ask the House to reflect on why the bill needs such a severely restricting, overarching clause affecting all marine conservation areas when it is supposed to be the intent of the bill to zone each area for specific usage, unless of course it is the government's intention to shut down those industries in Canada that rely on the extraction of such materials.

Furthermore, I find it quite strange that members of parliament representing areas of Atlantic Canada would not strongly object to such a clause since some of them hail from a province like Newfoundland, where the famous Hibernia offshore drilling program has successfully and, may I say, in an environmental manner penetrated the ocean's floor, and its very existence is ensuring the lives and well-being of many Newfoundlanders and Atlantic Canadians. Should such a bill and clause have been introduced prior to the Hibernia project and even prior to any exploration for that project, it possibly would never have been.

I would like to press on in this vein a little further and say that the legislation could prevent any further exploration and development off the shores of Newfoundland. For that matter, it could prevent such development off the shores of Canada, period, be it in our Atlantic, Arctic or Pacific oceans. Of course many will say that is true only if those specific areas are designated as marine conservation areas. That brings me to my next concern with the legislation.

I ask hon. members of the House to take note of clause 5 on page 4. Subclause 5(1) is most distressing and represents what is fundamentally wrong with the government. It seriously undermines the effectiveness of elected representatives in the House. I believe that once the members in the Chamber today hear what I will read from the bill they cannot help but understand that there need to be serious changes to the bill for it to be accepted in the Commons. I will quote from subclause 5(1):

Subject to section 7, for the purpose of establishing or enlarging a marine conservation area, consisting of submerged lands and waters within the internal waters, territorial sea or exclusive economic zone of Canada and any coastal lands or islands within Canada, the Governor in Council may, by order, amend Schedule 1 by adding the name and a description of the area or by altering the description of the area.

In plain English what this means is that the Prime Minister and his cabinet can decide out of the blue to create a marine conservation area in any member's riding or backyard. Yes, the bill does recommend that the Minister of Canadian Heritage consult with those she or he deems to be affected people, but it does not guarantee that their opinions will be heard and agreed to. It is conceivable, should parts of the St. Lawrence be considered a marine conservation area, that the government could restrict or reduce fishery catch levels for various species, or even shipping levels. The heritage minister might even choose some of the most fertile fishing grounds on the east coast or, for that matter, the west coast, and deem them marine conservation areas. There would be nothing we as elected members of parliament could do about it.

How does the minister think this will sit with Canadians and more so with coastal communities whose very survival in many cases depends on the resources they can extract from the sea? The power the bill in this clause takes away from Canadians and their parliament and places in the hands of a very few insiders, cabinet members, is appalling. I know my constituents will not stand for it and neither will I.

I implore members of the House to demand the amendment of the clause and to return the power of creation and enlargement of these marine conservation areas to the hands of parliament, where it will receive much reflection, consultation and thought. We are accountable to our constituents and to Canadians.

I know my comments in the House today may seem strong and passionate, but when I read on to the end of clause 5 to subclause 5(3) my blood really boils. There is no doubt that Canadians listening today should be outraged at the fact that cabinet is the sole body creating and enlarging marine conservation areas. However, it should incense them even more to learn that the body that creates these areas does not have the power to reduce or eliminate them.

Let me explain. It is all right for the government to expedite the creation of these marine conservation areas and to wield the swift power of cabinet to that end, but to reduce or eliminate an area would take an act of parliament. Allow me to read once again from the bill. I would ask members to take note of subclause 5(3) on page 5:

No amendment may be made by the Governor in Council to Schedule 1 for the purpose of removing any portion of a marine conservation area.

Of course I agree that parliament should be the body deciding on whether or not a marine conservation area should be designated. However, what Canadians may not realize is that only the government can raise in the House an amendment to an act of parliament, meaning that it would have to be the will of the government of the day to amend or remove a marine conservation area. It would not be up to individual members to do so. Although we as elected members would have the opportunity to debate such a bill, we could not make any changes on our own.

It is also important to note that it is not uncommon for a bill to take up to one year to make its way through the House of Commons and its standing committee, to the Senate and then to receive royal assent. Depending on the priority the government places on the bill, it could take even longer.

We know that in reality the time a bill spends in the House of Commons or the Senate is controlled by the government. It has been known to push bills through in weeks and it has also dragged its heels on some bills for years, not unlike what has happened to the history of this bill, I might add.

The point I am trying to make is that the government does not need to abrogate its democratic responsibility by allowing clause 5 to stand. It already has the power to push bills into law and could create as many marine conservation areas as it likes.

I would urge the government to do the right thing and allow parliament its due evaluation, consultation and amendment of bills relating to specific marine conservation areas, not ram this omnibus piece of legislation through the House.

I would ask members to support amendments to the legislation that would see the need for the government to introduce specific legislation for every marine conservation area it plans to designate.

I would ask members to support amendments to remove clause 13. As mentioned, that clause would eliminate the ability to ever extract resources from the marine conservation areas regardless of the environmental viability of any project.

I will leave you and my hon. colleagues with these final words of caution and conscience. Members should ask themselves how their constituents would react if their fishing grounds were to become protected under the bill. How would their constituents feel if their activities, those which, I might add, put food on their tables and clothes on their children's backs, could not be continued? What if they were told they could not work or that the bill would drastically affect the future of their community? I would venture to suggest members of parliament would want to consult widely, bring their concerns to the attention of the minister and have their day in the House to express those opinions and to convince their colleagues to support their endeavours.

As this bill currently stands, hon. members will never have that opportunity. That is wrong. Therefore I move:

That the motion be amended by deleting all the words after the word “That” and substituting the following therefor: Bill C-10, An Act respecting the national marine conservation areas of Canada, be not now read a second time but that the Order be discharged, the Bill withdrawn and the subject matter thereof referred to the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

The amendment is in order.

[Jocelyne Girard-Bujold, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Madam Speaker, I listened very carefully to the speech by my colleague, the Canadian Alliance member. I might have ten or so questions to ask him as a result of his speech, but I will sum them up.

He mentioned the precautionary principle. I believe it is quite normal for him to do so.

I would like to know what he means, as the Canadian Alliance critic in this matter, by precautionary principle with regard to the marine conservation areas?

At present, marine conservation areas cover endangered species and territories located in the provinces. Throughout his speech, I did not hear him refer to consultation with the provinces. The member made no mention of the involvement of provincial governments in the decision to create such areas.

In my area of the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean, we have the Saguenay—St. Lawrence Marine Park, which was created after consultation with the community, the province and the federal government. Based on that, the government did something really fine. I believe it is a model of what Canada and Quebec can do together. The member did not mention that.

He also said in his speech that no matter what the environmental sustainability of a project is, we must forge ahead. I have very serious reservations about this. He referred to the Rio convention and the precautionary principle.

These are the first questions I would like to ask the member. If I still have the time, I would like to ask him some more.

[Andy Burton, Canadian Alliance, Skeena, BC]

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for those questions. I unfortunately cannot reply in the member's native language, but I will do the best I can in English.

I will deal first with the provincial consultation aspects. Obviously if legislation such as this proceeds there is a role for the provinces. I would suggest that it is a major role. It is absolutely critical that the provinces be involved in the creation of any marine conservation areas.

I am from British Columbia, the west coast of Canada. I think the implications for the province of British Columbia are of great concern because of the potential for offshore oil and gas development, among other things. The implications are not just for the offshore but for lakes, streams and so on. Certainly there has to be a great deal of provincial consultation. There is no question about that.

As I said right at the beginning, I have a great deal of concern about the environment. We all respect the environment. I come from a rural area. I have lived in small town Canada all my life. I hunt and fish. I consider myself to be a basic environmentalist. I enjoy the outdoors. I respect the outdoors and the environment, as do all my colleagues in the Canadian Alliance. It is extremely important that we continue to protect the environment.

What we are saying is that we cannot allow this legislation to stand in the way of environmentally acceptable development. That is my concern. As I said earlier, especially in B.C. there is potential for offshore oil and gas development, for instance. We cannot just shut that down. The potential for the economy of Canada and British Columbia is huge. Look at what it has done for Newfoundland. Look at what it has done for the east coast. We have to take all of those things into consideration. We need to have a balance.

I am no expert but the precautionary principle has been changed to some degree by taking out words around the phrase lack of scientific certainty. The real statement reads:

Where there are threats of serious or irreversible damage, lack of full scientific certainty shall not be used as a reason for postponing cost effective measures—

We are saying that the removal of certain words from that principle creates a little different and much harsher aspect in the content of the bill. That is what concerns us. Even if there was no real evidence something could be stopped on that basis rather than people saying that we should take a look at it and see if we can really do it in an environmentally friendly manner.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

We have less than a minute left for questions and comments. Therefore I would like to see the clock as 5.30 p.m. and take the five minutes the next time it is before the House. Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

It being 5.30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper.

Iraq

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

moved:

That, in the opinion of this House, the Canadian government should lead efforts at the United Nations to lift the economic sanctions imposed upon Iraq since 1991, which have served only to inflict severe suffering on civilians, especially the most vulnerable members of the Iraqi population, namely the elderly, the sick and children.

Madam Speaker, it is with a sense of profound sadness and anger that I rise in my place in the House today to once again plead with our government, the Government of Canada, to finally show leadership and to call on the United Nations and on every other international forum for an end to the genocidal sanctions that have been imposed upon the people of Iraq for the last decade.

I cannot believe I am still standing in place today pleading with our government to act, over a year after a strong, powerful and eloquent report of a unanimous foreign affairs committee called on the Liberal government to do precisely what I am seeking today, to lift the economic sanctions that have had such a catastrophic impact on innocent human lives, innocent people in Iraq. The sanctions certainly have not had an impact on Saddam Hussein, but over the course of the last decade, they have resulted in the death, according to UNICEF, of over half a million children under the age of five.

I travelled to Iraq back in January 2000 with a delegation from a group called Voices of Conscience, Objection de conscience. This is a group of very fine women and men, mainly from Quebec, who are artists, journalists, doctors and representatives of non-governmental organizations. We travelled overland into Baghdad and then down into the southern part of Iraq.

For me it was a return visit because I had been to Iraq nine years previously, just before war broke out. I visited in November 1990 leading a delegation that included Lloyd Axworthy, then foreign affairs critic for the Liberal Party, and a Conservative member of parliament named Bob Corbett.

The results of the imposition of that draconian sanctioned regime, as well as the massive and ongoing bombings that many Canadians do not even know are happening in Iraq today, were absolutely devastating both to the people and to the infrastructure of Iraq.

We must never forget the appalling attack that took place in 1991. I will not call it a war because, as one of the United States generals said, it was like shooting fish in a barrel. I believe there were over 100,000 Iraqi casualties of that attack.

Prior to that attack, Iraq was one of the most advanced countries in the Middle East in economic, social and cultural rights. Iraq has the second largest oil reserves in the world after Saudi Arabia. They belong to the people of Iraq. They were nationalized in 1972. Iraq had an extensive health care system, clean and abundant drinking water, sewage treatment plants, electric power generation plants, free education at all levels and a comprehensive network of social services. The status of women in Iraq, a country in the Middle East in which too often women are still very much second class citizens, was one of the most advanced of any country in that region.

What our delegation witnessed on our return last year was the total collapse of Iraq's human and physical infrastructure, a nation that has experienced a shift from, as was described by the United Nations development program, relative affluence to massive poverty. Unemployment is epidemic. Inflation has skyrocketed. The average salary is about $5 U.S. a month. There has been a dramatic increase in begging, prostitution and crime.

The agriculture sector is in disarray, ravaged by hoof and mouth disease, screw-worm and the effects of major drought. The once thriving and vibrant cultural sector has been another victim of this inhumane sanctions regime, as our delegation heard from the artists with whom we met.

While we were in Baghdad we also met with the then United Nations humanitarian co-ordinator, Hans von Sponeck. Hans von Sponeck, who was a distinguished public servant with the United Nations for many years, resigned shortly after we left. He said that he could no longer participate in the administration of the inhumane sanctions regime. In resigning in that way, he joined the former United Nations humanitarian co-ordinator, Dennis Halliday, and the former head of the United Nations World Food Program, Jutta Burghardt. He pointed out in many speeches afterwards that, in his words, Iraq was truly a third world country once again. He said, and I quote:

I have never been in a country where I have seen so many adults crying.

In a recent speech, he quoted from a December 2000 UNICEF report that ranked the increase in Iraq's child mortality rates the highest among 188 countries in the world since 1991; a 160% surge as a result of a lack of medicine, malnutrition and waterborne diseases, such as dysentery.

Hans von Sponeck strongly opposes the sanctions and has called for the lifting of the sanctions. He said that he wants it clearly underlined that does not mean he supports Saddam Hussein, which is certainly also the case for myself and members of the New Democratic Party.

While Saddam Hussein has an appalling track record of repression, including the gassing of Kurds in northern Iraq at Halabja, and should be held accountable before the international community for his crimes, we also need to understand that the impact of these genocidal sanctions means that those are who are directly responsible for imposing them are, in my view, also guilty of crimes against humanity.

Let us look at the former United States secretary of state, Madeleine Albright. When she was asked in an interview whether the deaths of thousands and thousands of innocent Iraqi children were worth the price that was being paid to enforce these sanctions, she looked right into the camera and she said “yes, that is a price worth paying”. That was a price worth paying, the death of those children.

As my colleague for Vancouver East said, that is shameful and that is genocidal. As Hans von Sponeck said “whether you die by bullets or by hunger and disease, you are still dead”. Iraq in the last 10 years has suffered beyond any imaginable allowable limits.

We often hear talk of Iraq as a rogue state. The United States is seeking to justify its new star wars scheme, the national missile defence program, partly by suggesting that somehow Iraq, North Korea, Iran and others are rogue states.

I want to suggest that the true rogue state on the planet today in fact is the United States itself, which has shown such contempt for international law and for the standards of basic humanity in enforcing these profoundly immoral and illegal sanctions.

The United States, after all, is a country that has demonstrated contempt for international law in many different ways. It has shown contempt for the environment by turning its back on the Kyoto accord. It has shown contempt for the rights of children by being one of the only countries in the world, along with Somalia, that has refused to sign the international convention on the rights of the child. It has shown contempt for international law by supporting the absolutely violent and appalling policies of the Israeli government in its attacks on the Palestinians and its illegal policy of occupation in settlements. Terrible violence is being directed against Palestinians. It is the United States that has consistently been propping it up. We can also look at the United States in the context of its support for the illegal sanctions against Cuba. Once again, which state is the real rogue state in the world today? We know which one it is.

The current situation in Iraq is absolutely tragic. The greatest burden of these sanctions is borne by the most vulnerable people in Iraqi society: the children, the women, the disabled and the elderly.

As I have mentioned, UNICEF has confirmed that infant mortality rates have skyrocketed since the imposition of these sanctions. Over half a million children have died as a result of the imposition of these sanctions and 4,500 children continue to die each month.

I met with doctors in Baghdad and Basra who, with tears in their eyes, spoke of their sense of helplessness and powerlessness in being unable to save the lives of more than 2% of the children in their care in the oncology wards. They knew that many of those who survived would just return to hellish conditions of malnutrition and open sewage. There was one nurse for 100 children in a ward that we visited.

There has been an explosive rise in the incidence of endemic infections, such as cholera, typhoid and malaria, and major increases in measles, polio and tetanus. Iraq has also seen a huge brain drain as a result of the sanctions. The middle class has largely been destroyed and young people see no hope for their future. We were told of Saturday auctions where proud Iraqi families are forced to sell off their family heirlooms and furniture simply to survive.

I visited a pediatric clinic in Basra in the south. The death toll there was particularly high and it was linked to the use by the allies of depleted uranium in bombing in the spring of 1991. As I have mentioned, the bombings continue even today in that region. It is illegal. The no fly zones have no legal basis whatsoever, yet the United States and the U.K. continue to bomb and innocent civilians continue to die as a result of that bombing. Recently they bombed just outside Baghdad. I was ashamed as a Canadian that our government was one of the only governments that was actually prepared to stand up and defend the United States and the United Kingdom in that illegal bombing. The bombing goes on and the impact of depleted uranium in terms of the congenital deformities, particularly in the south, has been terrible.

We also witnessed the results of what one Baghdad professor referred to as the intellectual genocide of Iraq. Virtually no funding is left for education as a result of the oil proceeds and so the system has collapsed. They have no access to scientific and medical journals and no opportunities to attend professional conferences. Parents give their children chalk to take to schools. Our delegation brought in pencils and medical supplies as an act of silent defiance.

What about the oil for food program? Well, it has not worked. In fact the so-called 661 committee, which enforces the program, has been harshly criticized by many commentators, including the secretary general of the United Nations who said just last November that he had serious concerns over the excessive number of holds that have been placed on applications and on sectors, such as electricity, water, sanitation and agriculture, that impact adversely on the poor state of nutrition in Iraq.

I would like to say a word about nutrition. Dr. Sheila Zurbrigg has documented eloquently the state of famine that has gripped Iraq today. She pointed out that in recent statistics the trends in mortality are getting even worse and that the conditions are getting worse. She also said that child malnutrition rates in the centre south part of the country do not appear to have improved and nutrition problems remain serious and widespread. Acute malnutrition is a huge problem and it is above 10%. Many children are small for their age and visibly wasting away. One in seven Iraqi children will die before the age of five. It is absolutely unbelievable. The agricultural sector, as the FAO has pointed out, is in crisis as well.

I have mentioned Dr. Sheila Zurbrigg. I will also pay tribute to the many Canadians, individuals and organizations that have worked so tirelessly and with such commitment and dedication against these inhumane and genocidal sanctions. These include the Canadian Network to End Sanctions on Iraq, the Nova Scotia Campaign to End Iraq Sanctions, End the Arms Race, Physicians for Global Survival Canada, Objection de conscience or Voices of Conscience, Project Ploughshares, Kawartha Ploughshares and many such groups across the country.

In closing, I once again remind the House of the unanimous recommendation of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade that the government immediately work for the lifting of economic sanctions. It is essential that the sanctions be lifted, that they be lifted now and that Canada show the leadership that makes it possible.

[Denis Paradis, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Madam Speaker, while the government is sympathetic to the humanitarian objectives of the motion before the House, we cannot support the proposition that Canada seek the removal of U.N. sanctions on Iraq in the absence of Iraqi compliance with U.N. obligations.

Canadian policy toward Iraq has been motivated by the government's concern both for the humanitarian situation and for the security challenges Baghdad continues to pose for the region. This balanced approach must continue to guide our actions on the Iraq file.

We do not dispute the fact that sanctions have had a profound impact on the people of Iraq. It is the prescription called for in the motion with which we disagree. The call to lift sanctions is an appealing response to the situation, but it neglects not only the security risks of such a unilateral step but also the measures that have been and continue to be instituted with increasing success to minimize the civilian impact of the Iraq sanctions regime.

The approach that Canada and the international community have brought to the design and implementation of the Iraq sanctions regime has been focussed, from the outset, on both the security and humanitarian dimensions of the problem. While the international community has been justifiably determined to put an end to Iraqi weapons of mass destruction programs, equal attention has been paid to the need to mitigate the humanitarian impact of sanctions.

Resolutions 661 and 687, which set up the sanctions regime after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait and extended it following Kuwait's liberation, exempted food and medicine from the embargo. When, because of Iraqi obstruction, it became clear that Iraqi disarmament would take longer than the few weeks or months originally anticipated, the UN tried to establish an oil for food program which would enable Iraqi oil revenues to be used for humanitarian purposes. UN resolution 706 creating the oil for food program was passed in 1991.

For its own political reasons, the government of Iraq rejected UN resolution 706, delaying the implementation of an oil for food program for nearly five years. The result was a catastrophic degradation of Iraqi society. When the Government of Iraq relented in 1995-96 and finally accepted the oil for food program, it was already far too late to avert a collapse in Iraqi health and living standards.

However the oil for food program did help in ending the Iraqi decline and it was continually modified over the years in an effort to improve its effectiveness.

This effort culminated in December 1999 with the passage of UN Security Council resolution 1284, which brought even more sweeping changes to the humanitarian program in Iraq.

These changes included a lifting of the oil ceiling, which allowed Iraq to sell unlimited quantities of oil, and the development of pre-approved lists of items that would not need to be reviewed by the sanctions committee.

These so-called green lists have been expanded continually and now cover medical supplies, pharmaceuticals, agricultural equipment, educational materials, water and sanitation equipment, housing materials, oil spare parts and agricultural items, effectively lifting UN sanctions on these items.

However, Iraq rejected resolution 1284 and has, where possible, blocked the implementation of a number of its key humanitarian provisions.

Despite Baghdad's efforts to weaken the program, there is little doubt that the impact of the oil for food program and the changes brought about by resolution 1284 are having a positive impact in Iraq, as UN secretary general Kofi Annan indicates in his report of March 2, 2001.

With funding for the humanitarian program at $5 billion to $7 billion every six months, the UN secretary general noted, “Iraq is in a position to address urgently the nutritional and health status of the children of Iraq”.

Whether Iraq will in fact realize and make full use of its revenue potential to address the needs of its citizens, however, is an entirely different question. It has already been mentioned here in the House that Saddam Hussein preferred building houses for himself to looking after the needs of the people.

Efforts by Baghdad to impose illegal surcharges on oil contracts slowed Iraqi exports through most of 2000, prompting the UN secretary general to worry in his report whether sufficient funds will be available to meet the humanitarian targets in Iraq.

At the same time, concern continues to grow regarding Baghdad's willingness to spend the humanitarian funds that are available in a timely manner.

For example, as of January 31, Iraq had contracted for only 21% of the medical items contained in the distribution list for the last phase of the program, which had expired at the beginning of December.

By March, the figure had climbed to only 48%. Education sector contracts were less than 50% of the allocation, while oil spare parts contracts amounted to just over 10%.

It appears that this lax attitude towards the program on the part of the government of Iraq will continue in the current phase, as Baghdad was more than two months late submitting the distribution list for phase nine, which began on December 6, 2000.

As a result, by March 31, nearly three months later, there were no contract applications for health, electricity, water, sanitation, education or oil spare parts. This is despite the fact that with around $3 billion currently sitting uncommitted in the escrow account in New York the financial resources for these items are clearly available.

The money is there, and the Iraqi government is not using it. It is very clear that the international community has tried to mitigate the humanitarian impact of sanctions from the very beginning. This process continues under the aegis of the United States, in an effort to better target the Iraq sanctions regime by easing the import of civilian goods into Iraq, while tightening the restrictions on military related items.

While the details surrounding this effort are still being developed within the UN Security Council, the initiative appears consistent with the approach Canada has long advocated. Canada will contribute what we can to this process to ensure that the security goals and humanitarian needs in Iraq are indeed addressed with equal vigilance and priority.

Better targeting of the Iraq sanctions regimes may seem an inadequate response for those who see a full lifting of sanctions as the only solution to the Iraq situation, but the fact remains that sanctions must continue to be applied in Iraq because the disarmament job is not complete.

From the earliest days through eight years of UN inspections, Iraq offered far less than what Baghdad had pledged and the ceasefire arrangements demanded.

Obstruction, deception and outright lies were daily occurrences, as Iraq was trying to save key elements of its weapons programs.

The crucial question regarding disarmament efforts is, if Iraq, as it claims, has honoured its obligations and is not in fact rebuilding its weapon programs, as a number of recent reports have claimed, why is it not allowing arms inspectors to verify its statements on site?

Lifting the sanctions now, while Iraq continues to fail to meet its obligations to the UN, would send a dangerous message on the weakness of the international system in the face of a ruthless and rebellious regime. The international community cannot accept Iraq's intransigence and its refusal to comply with its obligations toward the UN.

There is little doubt that left to itself Iraq would again constitute a serious threat to its neighbours and to the security of the entire Gulf region. The country is run by one of the world's cruellest regimes, with a disastrous human rights record.

The Government of Canada is sympathetic to the objectives which underlie the motion. While the international community has tried with increasing success to mitigate the worst effects of the sanctions and make their humanitarian provisions Saddam-proof, the Iraqi people have suffered too long. Ultimately sanctions must be lifted but the option put forward in the motion is not the way.

Unilateral actions are not the answer. There is a process in place to achieve the common goal of removing sanctions and it begins and ends with Iraq's compliance with its international obligations.

Security demands require that sanctions remain in place until Iraq meets its obligations, but this does not mean that the people of Iraq need to bear the full burden. The instruments are in place to address the pressing needs of Iraq's civilian population, and efforts are underway to make them more effective.

Pressure must be brought to bear to force the Government of Iraq to both use the humanitarian tools that are available to their full potential and abandon its long established policy of sacrificing the well-being of its population to achieve its political and military objectives. Baghdad can ensure the return to normality in Iraq by complying with its UN obligations, and Canada should do what it can to move Iraq in that direction. This motion, by rewarding Iraqi intransigence, does the opposite.

[Keith Martin, Canadian Alliance, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Madam Speaker, we have a great deal of sympathy for the people of Iraq and the issue is about the tragedy taking place there. Our hearts go out to the people of that country who have been abused far too long by a thuggish, violent, illegal and brutal leader named Saddam Hussein. This is all about Saddam Hussein. It is not about the people of Iraq who have suffered far too long.

I say to the member for Burnaby—Douglas that while we have a great deal of sympathy for his motion it is naive. It detracts from the issue which is about dealing with a violent thug called Saddam Hussein.

In his speech the member for Burnaby—Douglas spent far more time bashing the United States than dealing with the thug Saddam Hussein. He spent a good chunk of his time U.S.A. bashing and not enough time dealing with the major antagonist. That says a lot about the member and where he is coming from on the issue.

However let us talk about the issue at hand. Saddam Hussein has caused the brutal deaths of thousands of his people through torture and summary execution by his own hand and the hands of others. One and a half million Iraqi civilians have died since 1991. According to UNICEF, 600,000 of them were under five years of age. Every month 4,500 children die. Maternal mortality rates are up and have more than doubled since 1991. Child malnourishment has increased by more than 300% since 1991. Hospitals, water and the education system are in disarray. Why?

As the hon. member from the government mentioned, Iraq can sell as much oil as it wants for food. There are more than 660 things the government can do with no problems whatsoever.

People need education, infrastructure development and humanitarian supplies in order to live. Why are the conditions on the ground not improving? They are not improving because Saddam Hussein is using his own people as pawns in a brutal political struggle. He is prepared to kill his own people in an effort to break these sanctions and to rub the nose of the west in the ground. Saddam Hussein is the rogue. He is the one who is brutalizing his own people and standing in the way of prosperity, peace and security for the people of Iraq.

It is interesting to look at the situation in northern Iraq where there is a no fly zone, as there is in the south. The no fly zone in the north was meant to protect the Kurds. Why? It was because Saddam Hussein murdered Kurds using chemical and biological weapons. That says a lot about the person. It says that we are dealing with an individual who is prepared, at a whim, to violate the basic norms of international respect and international law for his own end. He is prepared to kill and murder his own people with brutal chemical and biological weapons. We all saw pictures on television of what happened to those Kurds.

Saddam Hussein is also trying to murder, and has murdered, the marsh Arabs in the south. Those people have lived there for thousands of years and do not want to harm anybody but he has sent his people in with tanks. He has murdered these people, destroyed their environment and has tried to drive them out of their homes. Saddam Hussein is the one killing the Iraqi people, not the west, not the United Nations and not Canada.

What the hon. member for Burnaby—Douglas should be doing is using his efforts to tell the Iraqi regime that we will not tolerate that any more. All that Saddam Hussein has to do is to allow the weapons inspectors to enter his country. He only has to co-operate with the security council resolutions and the international community, and we would be happy to work with his people to improve their health and welfare.

We want the children of Iraq to be educated and the babies to be healthy. We do not want to see the children of Iraq die from malnutrition. It is Saddam Hussein who can change that, and change it overnight. The power to improve the health and welfare of the Iraqi people rests in his hands.

I am not confident, and I do not believe that anybody in the House is, that he will do that. However, what would happen if we were to immediately drop those sanctions? Can we trust Saddam Hussein to respect international law and to treat his people well? The fact of the matter is that he is obstructing what is going on in his country.

It is interesting to note that Saddam Hussein, while his people are starving, has built over 42 palatial palaces for himself and his cronies with money that should have been used to feed and educate the children and improve the water supply. Why is he not using the $3 billion that he held in a UN escrow account for water, agriculture and industrial production, as well as for improving the infrastructure in the country? The facts speak for themselves.

We have imposed those sanctions with a heavy heart. We do not want them to continue. As Kofi Annan said, they are a temporary measure. When the regime in Iraq complies with international law and allows UN inspectors to enter the country unfettered, and when it co-operates with the international community, we will co-operate too. It is not only for the international community at large but also for the regional security.

Why is it that at the last Arab summit, and where better to find co-operation or sympathy for Saddam Hussein, Arab leaders gave only muted and lukewarm support to the lifting of sanctions? The reason they did that was that they feared for their security.

The invasion of Kuwait by Iraq was a graphic example of how this individual is prepared to be a security threat in the Middle East. Why is it that his fellow Arab leaders look upon him as a thug and a bully? Do they embrace him? No, they fear him because he is unpredictable, violent and willing to abuse people in his own backyard for his own political gain.

It is sad that he has been able to secure greater control in his country. We would support other countries in supporting the opposition forces in Iraq. Unfortunately his secret security forces have a greater control and a greater hammerlock on the people. They pick people off the street who later disappear. They have been doing that for a very long time. It is a reign of terror.

We cannot imagine the tragedy that the people of Iraq have endured for so long. To the people of Iraq we say that we want them to thrive, prosper and live in peace. Their leader has to either change or he has to comply with the basic norms of international security. We do this for the people of Iraq and for ourselves. We do this for basic human rights and for peace.

I hope the member for Burnaby—Douglas can approach the issue in a pragmatic way to fulfil the basic needs and improve the health and welfare of the people of Iraq. I hope he invests a lot more time in shooting his barrels off at Saddam Hussein than at the United States of America.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to have an opportunity to speak to Motion No. 83 on behalf of my colleague from Cumberland—Colchester, the Conservative critic for foreign affairs who is on his own peace mission today in the Middle East accompanying the Minister of Foreign Affairs. He is pursuing a very noble peace cause in his own right.

Sanctions were imposed on the Iraqi nation after Iraq unilaterally invaded Kuwait in 1990. Canada played a leading role, even a decisive role, in ensuring that the response to Iraq's aggression occurred under the flag of the United Nations and not unilaterally. The response of our allies came about in a very reasoned and well thought out fashion.

The international community believed it was essential to impose sanctions as a means of keeping Iraq in check and to improve the lot of that nation by forcing the brutal and sadistic Saddam Hussein to stop his oppressions. The United Nations action including the sanctions forced Iraq out of Kuwait. The sanctions had a positive effect in that they curbed military and other aggressions that might very well have occurred.

The evidence suggests that the lot of the Iraqi people has not improved. The real issue is the suffering of human beings. The situation among Iraq's people is tragic. There is no denying that reality. Poverty, malnutrition and depleted social services such as health care are leaving their indelible marks. The situation is wretched and dismal.

UNICEF figures indicate that 4,500 children are dying every month from lack of food and decent health care. Thousands of people, and some sources are putting the number at over one million, have died since these sanctions were put in place. All this has occurred under the negligent and oppressive leadership or lack of leadership of Saddam Hussein.

United Nations resolution No. 96 that deals specifically with food in exchange for oil allows between $1.5 billion and $2 billion for food. This fund is administered by the United Nations and the food package consists mostly of carbohydrates for the malnourished. The program has made a difference but undeniably there is a long way to go to address other horrific conditions that exist for the people living in Iraq.

The United Nations sanctions committee can reject goods if it thinks something might be used for military purposes. This is cause for concern because it is a contentious and sometimes grey area. There is a military application for almost anything. Pipes for sewage could have scores of military uses. It is therefore sometimes difficult to draw the line.

The bottom line is that sanctions may be keeping Iraq in check but they are also severely afflicting scores of innocent people, mostly children, who do not deserve to be punished for something for which they are not responsible. There are severe implications for what is taking place. It begs the obvious question: Why should children be the scapegoats for a conflict between the international community and the pathological behaviour of Saddam Hussein?

Saddam Hussein's regime does the Iraqi people no favours in their struggle for survival and decent healthy living. Maintaining the people's basic needs is not the totalitarian regime's number one priority. Saddam Hussein's own standard of living has certainly not suffered like that of his people, as was pointed out by the hon. member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca.

The evidence suggests that Mr. Hussein's personal wealth has continued to escalate. He has continued to build palaces, an absolutely horrific situation given the poverty and squalor of his own people who he is supposedly representing. The regime is irreverent and defiant to the international community and to the pressures being brought to bear by countries like our own.

We need to determine the true impact of the sanctions and, more important, the fate of the children. We do not need to argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. This is not an academic exercise. We must look at the facts and figures and the costs in terms of human life, costs which are often difficult to determine.

Bearing in mind the situation the Iraqi people are facing, it is clearly time to revisit the state and the nature of the economic and military sanctions being imposed on Iraq. Is it possible to get good, sound reliable figures on how well the sanctions are working? It probably is not. However we should certainly be able to make a cost analysis of the toll they are taking.

Are the sanctions producing the desired result? Are they accomplishing goals or meeting ends? These are the questions the international community must ask persistently. It must ask the questions openly and honestly with a mind to determining whether sanctions should continue.

No one in this Chamber or in any legislature can single-handedly answer these questions. However, they must be addressed in a fair, open-minded and impartial way and they must be addressed soon. If not, it will be the demise of the innocent.

This is admittedly not an easy situation. It is difficult to dissect the issue and remove the variables that directly or indirectly hurt those innocent people. We cannot sterilize the issue or look at it in a detached way.

With economic sanctions, as with military sanctions, there are always innocent bystanders killed or left suffering. The trick is to distinguish between economic and military sanctions so that sanctions which primarily hurt civilians can be lifted. Any sanction, military or otherwise, can inflict collateral damage on a population. That is occurring in Iraq, and the worst effects must be identified and dealt with.

The motion says that the Canadian government should lead the efforts at the United Nations to lift the sanctions. Canada has an amazing amount of credibility, trust and respect on the world stage. We have an opportunity to intervene and get the ball rolling again. What better country to raise the issue in a serious fashion and to effect results than Canada?

We are the nation of Lester B. Pearson, peacekeepers and in the fight against apartheid, a nation with a progressive human rights record. The Conservative Party would certainly support Canada taking a leading role in opening this dialogue again. It is paramount that in the short term we find the facts, delve into our ability to effect change and be a part of the action, not just to talk about it but to actually try to bring pressures to bear on those who can immediately impact on this decision. The situation certainly needs to be addressed in the near future.

I am pleased to have had the opportunity to speak on this important motion. I thank the member for Burnaby—Douglas for bringing it to the attention of the House and to all Canadians. Although I am not the critic in this area, I will certainly maintain an interest in the issue of sanctions and in the overall outcome that we hope the United Nations, with Canada playing a leading role, will embark on in the near future.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to wholeheartedly support the motion brought forward by the member for Burnaby—Douglas.

The work of the member for Burnaby—Douglas has been outstanding, not just on this issue but also in understanding and promoting international human rights. He speaks with a great sense of hope for people in Canada who seek an alternative to Canada's foreign policy. The member has been a beam of light for a lot of people in the work that he has undertaken.

I listened with great sadness as he described his personal visit to Iraq and what he encountered while there.

Members in the House and Canadian enjoy the basic necessities of life, although there are people in this country who live in poverty. However what is happening to the people of Iraq is something that is truly horrifying.

I listened to the debate and was quite alarmed at what I heard. The member who spoke for the government side and the member who spoke for the Canadian Alliance were both members of the committee and, as we heard from the member for Burnaby—Douglas, were part of the unanimous report that came from that committee which sought to have these sanctions removed.

It quite alarming that in a committee members can somehow find the courage and the reason to see the absolute horror and devastation of what has happened with the sanctions, yet on another day in the House somehow be in favour of them. In fact the member for the Alliance characterized the motion as being naive. I am quite surprised by that. If we look at the impact of these sanctions, which have been in place for over a decade, on a civilian population, we see nothing less than the total destruction of a civil society.

If we followed the Alliance member's reasoning and logic, if we can call it a logic, then for the net result what would be success in the eyes of that member? Would it be that every child has died? Would it be that 50% of the population of children under five have died? The logic of what is being presented is actually illogical.

I take issue with the fact that, as we have heard, the target of the sanctions is Saddam Hussein. If that is so, then there has to be an agreement that the goal of those sanctions has been a failure. Here we are 10 years later and the guy is still in power. Meanwhile the civil society, the infrastructure, the hospitals, the health care, the water system and everything has been totally destroyed. I would say to those who have been proponents of this kind of course of action and this kind of foreign policy that this has been an abject failure.

In my community of Vancouver East, and in Vancouver generally, I have received many letters and phone calls from individual constituents who have been horrified and outraged at the destruction these sanctions have caused the people of Iraq.

I have personally attended rallies, vigils and meetings. I know that some of the real activists in Vancouver, people like Linda Morgan who was very involved in organizing the delegation that went to Iraq last year, are very committed to an international campaign of solidarity with people from other countries to draw attention to what is taking place in this country. As a Canadian member of parliament, I feel ashamed that our government has so blindly followed this sanction policy for so many years.

Let us be clear about what the motion before us today says. It does not say that Canada should take unilateral action. It does not say that Canada should just strike out on its own. It says that the Canadian government should lead the efforts at the United Nations to lift economic sanctions. There are many Canadians who would see that as a positive, hopeful and powerful role for the government to play rather than standing by and watching the devastation take place.

I listened to the news the other day to hear what was going on, as we all do every day. I made note that the Pope has now called for lifting of the sanctions. I believe there is a growing consciousness globally that if this is what we have sunk to as an international community, if the lowest common denominator of foreign policy is to basically impose hunger, famine, lack of medical supplies, lack of education, lack of clean water and if this is what foreign policy has come to, then where are we in terms of an international community?

As Canadians we should pause and reflect about our complicity in these sanctions. I urge members on the government side, particularly those members who are part of the foreign affairs committee and who apparently supported the lifting of the sanctions, to think about what this government policy is doing.

It seems to me that historically after a conflict or war there is often a period of reconciliation where the international community comes together to rebuild from the devastation of war. Yet in this situation not only was there a war that was horrific, and we could argue that another day in terms of what that was all about, but another war has unfolded, a war that has been even more devastating and that has been going on now for 10 years, which is the war of these sanctions.

Therefore, I feel a sense of deep tragedy about what has taken place here. I hope the motion today will help draw attention to the plight of the Iraqi people and to some of the very credible reports which have been produced by the international community such as UNICEF, Doctors Without Borders and many others who have witnessed firsthand what has happened and have given evidence to their witness of that.

Another point I would like to make is that the member from the Canadian Alliance made an outrageous statement that the Arab summit was not in favour of lifting the sanctions, which was absolutely not the case. That is totally false.

In fact, the Amman Declaration of March 28, from the 13th Arab summit, clearly stated:

We call for lifting the sanctions on Iraq and for dealing with the humanitarian issues pertaining to Iraq, Kuwaiti and other prisoners of war according to the principles of our religion and national heritage.

Therefore, the Alliance member was clearly false in his assertion.

In closing, I want to thank the member for Burnaby—Douglas for bringing forward this issue again; a sane idea, a saner policy for a humane world where we do not destroy a civil society because we are trying to get at one person.

I hope the members of this House will consider this motion and, like the local and national organizations who have worked so hard, put pressure on our Canadian government to convince it to be part of an effort to lift these sanctions.

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Madam Speaker, in the final minutes of this debate I want to certainly thank my colleague, the member for Vancouver East, for once again eloquently speaking out for justice, for human rights, for the rights of the people of Iraq to live in dignity and in support of this motion for the lifting of sanctions. I also want to thank my colleague from Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough for his very thoughtful comments.

I must say that I am really quite shocked at the fact that not a single Liberal member of parliament was prepared to stand during the course of this debate and speak out in support of what Liberal members voted in favour of during the last parliament. The foreign affairs committee in that last parliament passed a motion unanimously with the support of every party, including the Alliance Party and the Liberals. I see the parliamentary secretary here who was a member of that committee and voted in favour of this motion, as did the member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca. The motion passed unanimously stated:

Notwithstanding the adoption of security council resolution 1284, the committee urgently pursue the delinking of economic from military sanctions with a view to rapidly lifting economic sanctions in order to significantly improve the humanitarian situation of the Iraqi people—

That is what the motion today calls for. It is unbelievable that members who voted in favour of this principle in the last parliament now are condemning it. How many more innocent Iraqi lives have been lost over the course of just the last year?

They say we have to maintain these economic sanctions because of concern about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. They ignore the report that they signed on to. In fact that report states very clearly, referring to a March 1999 report of the UN expert panel on disarmament “The bulk of Iraq's prescribed weapons programs have been eliminated—100% of verification may be an unattainable goal”.

Indeed the former lead United Nations weapons inspector, Scott Ritter, has emphatically declared that Iraq was qualitatively disarmed of weapons of mass destruction from 1991 to 1998. Yet of course there was no lifting of sanctions.

I have no doubt that if the international community, with Canada leading in this, were to make it very clear to the Iraqi government that we were prepared to lift economic sanctions by a specific and firm date with international guarantees, Iraq would be prepared to allow the readmission of arms inspectors into that country and an assurance that any evidence of weapons that were being produced illegally would be dealt with and dealt with firmly. However, that is not what is happening here today.

I want to appeal to members once again to recognize the impact of this. The fact is that we as Canadians are spending some $35 million every year in enforcing these insane and genocidal sanctions. We have spent over $1 billion since 1991 in this region. I do not believe that Canadians who know of the impact of these sanctions on innocent human lives support this for one minute.

Dennis Halliday, the former United Nations humanitarian co-ordinator, in speaking of these sanctions said “We are destroying an entire society. It is as simple and as terrifying as that”.

He is right. The purpose of this motion is to call for leadership. It is a tragic coincidence that we are debating this motion on the eve of Mother's Day. I recall so vividly meeting many Iraqi mothers who had lost children as a result of these sanctions. I recall looking into the eyes of an Iraqi mother who pleaded with me “Why are you killing my innocent child?” I could not answer that question.

I appeal on the eve of Mother's Day for the international community and Canada to show leadership to end the impact of these destructive and genocidal sanctions and ensure that no more children, no more innocent people in Iraq, die as a result of these sanctions. That is my plea. That was the unanimous plea of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade in its report.

In closing, I seek unanimous consent of the House at this time that this motion might be made votable so at the very least the House could debate the issue and ensure that Canadians are given an opportunity to be heard in the committee on a profoundly important issue of life and death.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Is there unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

The hour provided for the consideration of private members' business has now expired. Since the motion was not deemed votable, the item is dropped from the order paper.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved.

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Madam Speaker, I rise on another very important subject, the subject of democracy and the growing assault by corporate powers on democracy in the context of NAFTA and the proposed FTAA agreement.

On February 20 of this year I asked a question of the Minister for International Trade concerning Metalclad Corporation, which was at that time before the British Columbia supreme court defending its NAFTA right to run a toxic waste dump in Mexico, ignoring the health and environmental concerns of elected local and state governments.

I asked the Liberal government to intervene in this case and to speak out strongly against the impact of the chapter 11 investor state provision in NAFTA in these circumstances. I held a press conference with CUPE and Greenpeace pointing out the impact of chapter 11, the investor state provision, on democracy itself.

In this case members of the small Mexican community of Guadalcazar said they did not want to allow a toxic waste dump in their community. They had already seen the impact on their children and on the environment of the existing toxic waste facility there. They said no and Metalclad under the investor state provisions of NAFTA sued the government of Mexico.

Just a few days ago we learned that it had won before a secret tribunal and the B.C. supreme court just upheld the award of millions of dollars. This is an outrage and an attack on democracy itself.

Once again I call on the Canadian government today to speak out clearly and strongly against an investor state provision in the FTAA. The Minister for International Trade said he was opposed to it last year. Now he says he is in favour of it. He says it has worked well. In fact it has not worked well at all in the case of MMT and Ethyl Corporation, in the suit by United Parcel Service against the public post office in Canada and in a number of other cases such as the Methanex case. We as New Democrats say that this corporate attack on democracy has to stop.

More and more local councils are recognizing this as well. The city of Ottawa just passed a motion calling on the Canadian government not to sign any trade deal that includes this kind of investor state provision. The city of Vancouver was the first to do that.

I am calling today on our government to show that leadership and make it very clear that we believe in democracy. We still do not know the position of the Government of Canada. It has not posted any position on investment on its website. The text that was supposed to have been made public is still secret. We are still waiting for that text to be made public.

Ultimately, democracy, human rights and the environment must come ahead of corporate power and corporate profits. There must be no chapter 11 investor state provision. Metalclad made that very clear. The people of Mexico, the people of Canada, the people of the Americas are saying no to this attack on democracy. I call today on the government to defend democracy itself.

[Pat O'Brien, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister for International Trade]

Madam Speaker, I must say the member certainly managed to refer to several of his questions in his four minutes, so I took some notes and I would like to reply to what he said.

The member claims the Minister for International Trade said that he was opposed to an investment clause. That is not correct. The minister and the Right Hon. Prime Minister have repeatedly said that given the full context of Canada's trade with the United States the clause works reasonably well.

However the Government of Canada is actively seeking clarification with its NAFTA partners, specifically the Minister for International Trade with his counterpart ministers, to limit the interpretation some adjudicating bodies have given to chapter 11 which expands its scope beyond the intention of the three partners.

The member says that the government has no position on investment. The fact is we are still consulting with stakeholders. We are anxious to see all the positions of the other countries. We will not short circuit the process of consultation. When the government is good and ready with its position it will be publicly announced to Canadians and available on the website.

As for the text to which the member refers, Canada submitted the text in French at Buenos Aires for translation. We are awaiting the Portuguese text. When all the translations are done and when the secretariat of the FTAA which is now in charge of it has the four texts, it will release them at once.

One would think the sky was falling to listen to the member for Burnaby—Douglas. There have been a grand total of six cases. One was just withdrawn. We have done quite well whenever we have been challenged under chapter 11.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

The motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 6.36 p.m.)