Debates of May 16th, 2001

Youth Criminal Justice Act

[Myron Thompson, Canadian Alliance, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we have been waiting since 1993 for significant changes to the Young Offenders Act that have not come from the government. I am afraid, even with the new bill, that the changes are not the kind of changes most Canadians are looking for.

I have heard from a number of individuals from Quebec over the last eight years. The polls indicate very strongly to me that the people of Quebec are not happy with the Young Offenders Act.

The Bloc would like to keep the legislation intact because it claims that it is highly successful and popular in the province of Quebec. I would question that as being a fact. All victims of various incidents of violence and crimes by young offenders who reside in Quebec and to whom I have talked tell me quite the contrary to what I am hearing from Bloc members. I believe it is time for a change.

Unfortunately I cannot personally support the bill because it is not the kind of change that Canadians are looking for with regard to young offenders. We want to see some very serious things happen. The Bloc's reason for not supporting it is that it wants to keep the status quo. The status quo is not satisfactory anywhere in Canada.

The bill was adopted in 1984. In 1994 it was supposed to come under a 10 year review. The justice department came out with a report. It indicated that crime, particularly violent crime among young people, was increasing at an extremely high rate. In 1994 it was reported to be nearly 300% to 350% higher than it was in 1984 when the Young Offenders Act was brought in. It is going in the wrong direction.

Now we hear the rhetoric that everything is all right and that it is decreasing by 3% or 2%. That tells me it has levelled off for the time being, but it is still 300% higher than it was when it was first brought in. Surely it cannot be acceptable to the people in Quebec that they would have this high increase over a 10 year period since the act was introduced. There has to be something wrong somewhere.

I encourage Bloc members to go back and visit with people throughout their province to make certain the happiness they claim exists with the bill really and truly does. I believe they would find that not to be the case. Our party will be opposing the motion.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. There have been consultations between all the parties in the House and I think you would find consent for the following motion.

I move:

That the amendments moved by the hon. member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve at report stage with respect to Bill C-7, an act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to amend and repeal other acts, be identified as standing in the name of the hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Does the hon. member have unanimous consent of the House to move the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I have a few remarks on why the NDP will not be supporting Motions Nos. 1 and 3 in the name of the Bloc member. These motions, if passed, would have the effect of allowing the province of Quebec to opt out of the youth criminal justice act. That would not be acceptable.

I say this in the context of belonging to a party which on other issues and at other times has supported the ability of Quebec to opt out of certain national social programs with compensation. In the past our party has supported the recognition of Quebec as a distinct society in terms of its civil law, its French language and its culture, et cetera.

However allowing Quebec to opt out of the youth criminal justice system, which would be applicable in every other part of the land, would be going much further than anything we have agreed to so far. It would not be in keeping with the arguments we have advanced with respect to opting out when it came to other matters.

I say this with some regret, because I have some sympathy for what members of the Bloc Quebecois have been saying about the youth criminal justice act. They have indicated that in their home province the Young Offenders Act has been made to work better than in many other provinces. As some would argue, the Young Offenders Act has worked in Quebec closer to what was intended when it was passed in 1984.

However that is not reason enough to make the leap that Quebec, or any other province for that matter, should be allowed to opt out and have its own separate youth criminal justice system. That is not something Canadians in general would find acceptable. They may not find the youth criminal justice act acceptable either. They may find, as we do, that the bill is imperfect to the point of not deserving our support. They may find that it is cumbersome and complex, that it lacks the appropriate resources, and that all other things said about it by various critics at the provincial government level and others are correct.

Nevertheless the principle of there being one criminal law, whether it is criminal law for youth or a criminal law for others, for all Canadians no matter where they live is something I would want to uphold in this instance. That is why the NDP will not be supporting Motions Nos. 1 and 3.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, unfortunately, the Progressive Conservative Party cannot support this amendment.

Much like the position that has been articulated by my colleague from Winnipeg—Transcona there is ample evidence, both in committee and before the House, that the province of Quebec has done exemplary work in the administration of the current Young Offenders Act.

It has arguably set the standard for the rest of the country in the way in which it has been very innovative in early intervention and restorative justice model type programs aimed specifically and very directly at troubled youth before they enter the criminal justice system.

As was enunciated by the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona, the Progressive Conservative Party has in the past made monumental efforts to recognize the distinctness of Quebec not only in the area of justice but in the areas of culture and language.

However in this instance we are dealing with a federal statute that pertains directly to the administration of justice. This amendment would allow provinces to opt out completely, to take away federal jurisdiction and leave jurisdiction solely in the hands of one province. That is dangerous and inconsistent with the administration of federal laws.

I think all members would agree that an opting out provision on criminal law is a recipe for disaster. Criminal law must apply evenly and be administered with fairness and with balance across the country. We cannot have bizarre sentencing schemes or justice that is seen as biased in any province.

Quebec's approach to criminal justice and youth criminal justice is arguably superior to that of other provinces and should be admired and emulated. However, an amendment to opt out and administer separately and apart from the rest of the country would not be in keeping with federal legislation.

I commend the intent and spirit of what the hon. member has put forward but I cannot support the amendment. We will have ample opportunity to debate this cumbersome and confusing bill in its entirety and to look at its many shortcomings.

For all its good intentions and emphasis on early intervention, the new law would shortchange provinces which try to administer it. It would expand the existing Young Offenders Act twofold. The provinces would cry out for resources because the bill permits and alludes to the expansion of early intervention programs.

The provinces would be left to live up to the standards the bill calls for without being given the resources to do so. The Minister of Justice has given the provinces a postdated cheque. The bill would come into being after being rushed through committee, as we have seen in this session. It would be foisted upon the provinces without the additional resources they would need to start and administer many of the programs.

Those are not my words or the words of the Progressive Conservative Party. Those words came directly from provincial representatives who appeared before the committee. They expressed grave concerns that the federal government, through Bill C-7, was trying to raise public expectations that all would be well if the bill came into being. They said that the notion of putting in place early intervention programs and restorative justice models without the resources to back it up, both human and monetary, was a fallacy. The provinces, given the option, would have preferred to keep the old bill. They would have simply asked the federal government for the money, the know-how and the support to put programs in place to make the existing system work.

I have worked in the justice system in administering the YOA. I think Quebec recognized very early on that although there are flaws in the Young Offenders Act there are ways to make it work. Quebec has set the standard and raised the bar in terms of its ability to work within the parameters of the old law.

It was a matter of giving more resources to provinces to allow them to fully administer programs, be innovative, make early interventions and set up programs for counselling. Such programs were aimed at putting youth on the right path as opposed to attempting after the fact to usher them through the criminal justice system.

I will touch for a moment on the upshot of what the new bill would do. It would cause incredible delay by introducing new procedures and processes pertaining to parole and early release, to the determination of violent versus non-violent offences, to new types of conditional sentences and to new types of tracking systems, so-called extrajudicial remedies that police officers would administer. All this would result in more appeals and more confusion over what the law means.

Judges came before the committee, judges with incredible experience in the criminal justice system and with the Young Offenders Act, who said they did not understand the bill and how it would work. They said they did not believe it would in any way improve the criminal justice system. They believed it would result in further delays.

The holding of young people to account, the protection of the public and the involvement of the state in rehabilitating young people would simply not occur. The resulting delays would perpetuate a system which is already confusing and frustrating for all participants, not only police, prosecutors, lawyers and judges but the young people themselves.

It will take an incredible amount of time to weed through the new bill to discern and comprehend what the drafters intended. It has a very academic feel as opposed to a practical, pragmatic and, dare I say, streamlined one which was likely the drafters' intent when they undertook the task of rewriting our youth criminal justice law.

The bill before us does the complete opposite. It is not streamlined. It is thicker. It is more cumbersome. It is more confusing. It adds new procedures. It adds new elements of delay.

I will conclude on this note. We all know the old legal maxim that justice delayed is justice denied. The bill would do just that. It would allow lawyers, on behalf of their young clients, to exploit these new procedures and cause lengthy delays that would deny the administration of justice. For that reason and those I have enunciated I cannot support the amendment. Nor do I support the bill.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have listened to all the remarks since the beginning of this debate, and I would like to go back on some of the questions that have been raised.

For example, the Alliance member for Wild Rose said “I encourage Bloc members to go back and visit with people in Quebec. They will find out that they are against this and want changes to the Young Offenders Act”. The hon. member is certainly not reading the papers these days. Since Sunday, May 13, I have been on a whirlwind tour of Quebec, which has already taken me to Montreal, Laval, Bonaventure, Sept-îles, Jonquière, and Sherbrooke.

Just before coming to the House today, I gave a press conference and I met people in Hull, Gatineau, and Aylmer to discuss the Young Offenders Act and Bill C-7 of the Minister of Justice. During this tour, I met experts, but also ordinary citizens, mothers and fathers. I will meet more people, because I will be touring for five or six more days.

All these people told me the same thing: We do not want the federal government to tell us how to raise our children. We have legislation called the Young Offenders Act and if it is applied properly, that legislation gives good results.

To the hon. member wondering if I know what is going on in my province, I can say that I do. I do not claim to know everything, and that is why I keep on touring Quebec. However, I have not seen anyone who was happy with the minister's amendments. No one in Quebec wants to see the Young Offenders Act amended.

Of course, there is room for improvement. If we had more money in order to apply that legislation even better, we would get better results. The justice minister said the implementation of Bill C-7 would cost Canadian taxpayers between $200 million and $250 million. That is just for implementing Bill C-7.

If the federal government has money it does not know what to do with, here is what I say: “Do not allow yourselves the luxury of a new act that no one wants and that everyone, even in the western provinces, finds complicated; invest more money so that provinces know and implement the Young Offenders Act better”. The success of a good implementation lies in knowing the tools.

They come up with extrajudicial measures as if it were something new to Bill C-7. But the Young Offenders Act already provides for alternative measures and we have been enforcing them for a long time in Quebec. This no doubt explains why we have the lowest crime rate in Canada. The province also has the lowest recidivism rate and the lowest detention rate This may be because we enforce the law correctly.

The justice critic for the Progressive Conservative Party, the hon. member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, spoke highly of Quebec. He said that Quebec is more successful than any other province. This is true. He praised Quebec's approach. And government members made similar comments. Do members realize that the bill they are about to pass—and I do hope they will not pass it—, the bill the government wants us to pass will put an end to this excellent success by Quebec?

Quebec's whole approach is now jeopardized. If members do not wish to listen to me, the member for Berthier—Montcalm, hopefully they will listen to all the Quebecers who daily enforce the Young Offenders Act. This is why Quebec has such good success rates.

Members should listen to the Commission des services juridiques, the Conseil permanent de la jeunesse, the Centrale de l'enseignement, university teachers, criminologists, Jean Trépanier, a well-known expert on the issue, the Fondation québécoise pour les jeunes contrevenants, Institut Pinel, the Conférence des régies régionales de la santé, Les Centres jeunesse du Québec, defence counsel and prosecutors.

The court judges who appeared before the committee said so. Justice Michel Jasmin appeared before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. This is not someone who knows nothing about the law. Justice Michel Jasmin is the co-ordinating judge of the Youth Court of Quebec. He came and told us that what the federal government was about to do was a mistake. We should at least listen to those individuals.

The Quebec coalition for youth justice is a group of thirty to forty agencies that enforce the Young Offenders Act on a daily basis, and it said the same thing. They told us that the problem was not the Young Offenders Act, but the way it is implemented. It has to be better enforced. But to be better enforced, this legislation needs to be better understood.

It seems to me that, as members representing ridings, as legislators in this House, before we amend the law, we should try to find out what the problem is. The problem is not the law but its enforcement. Let us work together to find a better way to enforce the law and inform the other provinces about the success achieved in Quebec.

Furthermore, the minister made some 166 amendments to the bill as it existed before the election of November 2000, in order to satisfy Quebec she says.

The government across the way refused to hear what witnesses from Quebec had to say about his proposed amendments. The government is embarrassed because it is fully aware that these amendments, as well as Bill C-7 we are now debating, are not in line with what is done in Quebec, and in fact go against everything that has been done in Quebec for at least 20 years. The government did not want to hear this. It lacked the courage to hear those individuals who enforce that law.

When I toured the province a woman told me: “Everything you said about implementing the legislation and what a teenager needs to get back on the right track is true. The good thing about the Young Offenders Act is that it takes the human factor into account. The YOA is also good for families and for parents because it gives them something to do. The legislation gives them the right to act in order to help their children get out of trouble”.

If there is one area where there is no discrimination it is youth crime. We find young offenders in poor families as well as in rich ones. No one is immune to the phenomenon.

I myself have kids. If one day because of peer pressure from friends or a street gang, or because of school or for any other reason, one of my kids or both of them stray from the path, I would prefer them to come under the Young Offenders and not the legislation the minister wants to shove down Quebec's throat because the YOA gives me, the parent, a say in what happens to my kids,

Bill C-7 contains a series of automatic responses and measures. Everything is left to the justice system. The cases are withdrawn from stakeholders who know very well how to deal with young offenders.

If their offence is serious, they will be given a pre-determined sentence while if it is not so serious, they will be given a simple warning. It will not be possible to intervene at the right moment, do the right thing, and treat young offenders properly. That is what is catastrophic and what the government does not seem to understand.

I am told that I only have one minute left. I could speak for hours on this issue because it is a subject that is close to my heart, and this has nothing to do with party politics. I met people and I will meet many more still during the tour I am doing with an excellent spokesperson, Marc Beaupré.

Marc Beaupré is not in politics precisely because he pursues social causes. He is an actor playing the role of Kevin in the series Les deux frères . He is a talented young actor who decided to join us, not the Bloc Quebecois, but all those of us who want to fight for children in Quebec.

He wants to convince the minister and the government that they are on the wrong track. He is trying to reach out to them, as we do, to make them understand.

[Yves Rocheleau, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased, for various reasons, to speak to Bill C-7. I want to start by paying a most sincere tribute to the member for Berthier—Montcalm for the colossal work he has done on this issue, as he does on all issues in which he is involved.

But his work on this issue is particularly remarkable. We know that he has been trying for months to get through to the government. He did it, among other things, by proposing 3,000 amendments in committee, 2,977 of which were ruled in order by the chair.

He also did it in a colossal way by speaking in committee for a period equivalent to almost 27 hours without interruption, probably to the great joy of his colleagues opposite. He did it very effectively, all things being relative of course. Let us say it was a relative joy—

[Gérard Asselin, Bloc, Charlevoix, QC]

We did not get to vote.

[Yves Rocheleau, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

My colleague reminds me that we did not get to vote. We know how timid this government is when it comes to using all the powers available to it, particularly to limit debate. We know how, in this great Canadian democracy, parliamentarians are free to express their opinions. We know how much we like to tell other countries how to run their affairs. This is part of the hypocrisy we were talking about a moment ago during Oral Question Period.

Speaking of that, I hope that the Bloc will find a way to set the record straight, faced as we are with a government that is becoming more and more arrogant, and even more so since the last election.

So I want to salute my hon. colleague for Berthier—Montcalm, who is touring all the regions of Quebec now to focus public attention on the fact that this bill contains certain totally unacceptable things which are absolutely contrary—and this is the aspect I want to bring to the attention of the hon. members—to a way of doing things which is really unique to Quebec and which, moreover, is a great success.

We must bear in mind that young Quebecers represent 23% of young Canadians but only 11% of young Canadians who are in trouble with the law. This is a sign that the Quebec approach is effective. While there are 201 cases involving young people before the courts in Quebec, there are 435 in the rest of Canada. That is the proof that the approach of Quebec is effective, valid and personalized.

In the 1970s, there was a slogan in Quebec “Québec sait faire”, or if you prefer “Quebec has the know-how”. Quebec does have the know-how in the field of juvenile delinquency. Quebec knows how to do things well, by respecting individuals and giving them a chance. Given our tradition, Quebec's rehabilitation rate is very high compared to the Canadian approach which is focusing more on a punitive approach and on repression, the words are delicate here, as we tend to make everything we can to rehabilitate the individual and get him back into society.

It is this approach that is now being challenged in the federal bill; it is challenged in what I call our soul. Crime is always a touchy subject in any society, all the more so when it concerns young people.

We have developed a model that works very well and that makes a wide use of the Quebec expertise. We are faced here with a process that does not recognize Quebec's performance and originality, that even holds it in contempt. It crushes this specificity and distinctiveness—I am sure members understand what that means—that come perhaps from being a distinct society. I am using the very words used by the Prime Minister in his post-referendum motion when he declared that Quebec is a distinct society.

However, the government does not recognize this so-called distinct society that the member for Saint-Maurice has in mind, whether it concerns young offenders, parental leave or the $5 à day day care.

It indicates an obvious lack of courage. All we are asking as Quebecers, all my colleague from Berthier—Montcalm is asking as a member of the House of Commons, all the coalition is asking for, based on a consensus among Quebecers, is that Quebec be allowed to use its own approach and that it be allowed to withdraw from this bill, if only on the basis of its distinct character.

What is the use of having a consensus in a society which purports to be a democratic society—and Quebec is a democratic society—and of asking every Tom, Dick and Harry and various prestigious organizations—my colleague from Berthier—Montcalm listed them earlier—as well as criminal lawyers, youth centers, youth protection services, psychologists, etc., when everyone agrees that the Quebec approach is the best?

Its the best because it is focused on the individual and his special needs. The justice system examines every individual on a case-by-case basis to understand his personal development, to see if he can be rehabilitated, if he cooperates, if he has a good behaviour. This formula works.

When all those in the know say that we should keep the status quo, what gives members opposite the right to do what they are doing? They are obeying a mean western right wing anxious to stomp on those who have made mistakes in their youth without giving them a chance to make amends. They would lock them up and throw away the keys. Why should Quebec have to submit to such a process?

This is a wonderful example—and you can be sure that your humble servant will use it to the best of his intellectual capacities—of the price Quebec has to pay for its dependence, its non-sovereignty. This is the result of having voted no in the 1995 referendum.

They are ramming down our throats legislation which is steamrolling over Canada and from now on, things will be decided here and no longer in Vancouver, or Winnipeg, Halifax, Toronto and especially not in Quebec City. Things will be decided here, from coast to coast, with national standards for health, education, and social programs as is this could be called.

The government will be the leader. Even when the public is against it, or when the major stakeholders are against it as is the case with Bill C-7 on young offenders, it strong-headedly, arrogantly, heavy-handedly forges ahead with its legislation instead of been true to its promise. A promise from whom? From none other than the Prime Minister. He is the one who used the expression distinct society to deceive Quebecers.

With every week, and every month that goes by we realize that the Prime Minister's distinct society is but an empty shell. He was talking through his hat. He was trying to fool people.

Next time when there is a referendum in Quebec, soon we hope, people can count on us to appeal to Quebecers' wisdom and remind them they should no longer trust this Prime Minister; they should not put their trust either in his predecessors such as Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who was his mentor, or for that matter any other prime minister in this supposedly great democratic country. They made promises during the referendum campaign, at a three-day love-in. They make nice memories.

They made commitments and promised to put their heads on the chopping block. They made commitments, in Verdun this time, only to break them and lie to the people of Quebec.

Contempt can only last for a while.

[Jocelyne Girard-Bujold, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Mr. Speaker, usually, it is a pleasure for me to speak in this House, but, today, I am very sad. With Bill C-7, we will be burying a practice that has proven its mettle in Quebec, that of democracy.

Before I begin, I would like to congratulate my colleague, the member for Berthier—Montcalm, for preventing the government from burying the Young Offenders Act for years now.

Yesterday, in the Jonquière region, with stakeholders from the community, I attended a meeting. In attendance were representatives of the Centres jeunesse du Saguenay, the head of youth protection, the Syndicat des enseignants de Jonquière, the Corporation de développement communautaire des Deux-Rives, which comprises some 50 community organizations and the Aînés de JAK de Jonquière, senior citizens. They said “No, no, no. We seniors oppose this bill”.

As well, there was the Association des parents d'ados, an organization helping young people. This organizations provides a 24 hour help line.

Also in attendance were the Patro de Jonquière, streetworkers, Justice alternative jeunesse du Saguenay Inc., the Commission scolaire des rives du Saguenay, the Commission scolaire de Jonquière, the Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées, the Centres Jeunesse and a number of individuals.

They all came to speak to my colleague and to Marc Beaupré, the person in charge of the non political aspect of the issue in Quebec. It is far too important an issue to make it political. Marc Beaupré is doing an excellent job of it.

I also attended a meeting in the riding of Sherbrooke, with my colleague who represents that riding and about twenty stakeholders, ordinary people, street workers, community organizations. They came to tell my colleague and me that they did not want this bill.

They are the ones who are the first to intervene with young people. They are the ones who know how effective the Young Offenders Act is in Quebec. I am not saying that it does not need any improvement. Nothing is perfect in this world. But these people work with this act and they are telling us “We have the right tools; we must just improve them and invest in the front line, that is, in prevention”.

This is what they came to tell us. I did not ask them to do so. They are the ones who agreed to meet my colleague and who said “Congratulations, you are informed. You are defending young people. You are defending tomorrow's society”.

In the last couple days, I have been witnessing a vaudeville in the House. We know what a vaudeville is. It is a human comedy.

I think now that enough is enough. What is happening now with this arrogant government is enough. The Minister of Justice should go and listen to the Quebec people. Why does she not travel? I am prepared to invite her to my riding of Jonquière, so she can meet workers who will tell her about their views on the Young Offenders Act and Bill C-7. I would like that. I am inviting her. I am extending my hand to her. I would even like to invite the Prime Minister and tell him “Come and listen to ordinary people. You are a lawyer by training. Come and listen”.

Judges are saying that they will not know how to implement Bill C-7. Moreover, it will cost between $200 million and $250 million to do so. That money will not go to young people. It will be lost in structures such as buildings and facilities, and in training for judges.

Two hundred and fifty million dollars to implement a bill, when street workers back home are not even paid minimum wage to provide frontline to young offenders. They sure could use $250 million. In Quebec, the recidivism rate is nil. It would be wonderful; things would be even better. We would be able to help young people who have stumbled.

At age 14, we all make foolish mistakes, including you and I, Mr. Speaker. Should a 14 year old be branded for the rest of his life? Today's young people are not allowed to buy alcohol or cigarettes until they are 18 years of age. The law prohibits them from doing that. But at age 14, they would be sentenced and branded for the rest of their life? This is unacceptable.

How can we get this across to the Minister of Justice, all members from Quebec and all Liberal members from Quebec? They should tell their minister “Open your eyes. We are successful in Quebec. Make sure it gets even better. Help us improve things if necessary, but do not dismiss it out of hand and start all over again”.

We have been successfully implementing this legislation for years in Quebec. Why should we pay for the other provinces, which had the same legislation, but did not implement it?

I am speaking for young people. I have children myself, and I have grandchildren, as do many of you and many of those watching us today. Parents came and told us “The young offenders system is helping us. But with this bill, it will become judicialized”. This is not what people want. They want assistance, assistance for the young people, and for their families so that the young people can learn to take charge and make something out of their lives. This is possible under the present Young Offenders Act, but it will not be under Bill C-7. What a shame.

I do not know how I will proceed, but I have a lot of imagination and I will not allow the minister to come in my province, where we are successful, and establish a system under which this success will be ignored, and young people will have no opportunity to take their destiny into their own hands. This is unacceptable.

Yesterday, actor Marc Beaupré came to speak with young people. He asked them what they thought about the bill. They answered “We cannot support this bill. You must stop them”. But how can they be stopped? That is the question I ask Quebecers and Canadians, as well as the Liberals in the House.

I am asking the Liberals “When will you stop criminalizing young people with such a bill?” I do not think that we should throw stones at the young person who commits an offence. In life, we should all have an opportunity to get their lives back together.

In my family there are several lawyers, so I know how the judicial system works. Instead of helping young people we will put them through the judicial system. That is enough. We are dealing with young people less than 18 years old, not with adults. Oddly enough, adults sentenced to six years of prison, thanks to a remission of sentence, serve only two years. That is serious.

Presently, under the Young Offenders Act, young people sentenced to six years serve six years. They serve their sentence in a rehabilitation system, in institutions that allow them to know themselves and progress. This is possible under the Young Offenders Act.

The minister must be thinking “I made a mistake. We must allowed Quebec to withdraw from the application of that act”. We must be allowed to keep on applying proactive measures for our youth. We are asking her to allow us to do so.

If she wants to maintain her bill as is, she should keep it for the other provinces and let Quebec withdraw from its application. That is what I am asking her to do. If she maintains it as is, I will vote against it.

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I pleased to address the House, and I want first to congratulate my colleague for Berthier—Montcalm on his splendid job of raising the level of public awareness within Quebec and probably in the rest of Canada also. He is getting feedback from Canadians throughout the country about the public awareness campaign he is waging against this bill.

People do not see this bill for what it really is. It is a far right bill, a punitive bill. It does not allow young offenders to get back on the right track, and it does not allow for their rehabilitation. In Quebec, rehabilitation is working, and it is working well.

A recent report broadcast on the TV program Le Point showed two teenagers who had committed roughly the same crimes. The Quebec method was used with one of these youngsters, and he is now rehabilitated, he is back in his community, and he is doing fine. The prevailing punitive method that they want to make even tougher in the rest of Canada was used with the second one. He ended up in prison, which is a school for crime. While in prison, he learned how to become a more dangerous criminal.

This is what we want the minister and the government to understand. We are telling them “In Quebec, there are people, and not just anyone, judges, police officers, crown attorneys, school boards, scholars, academics, social services people, community groups, youth centres, the youth protection branch, all those who are providing social services to young people, who are saying that changing the present system does not make any sense. Pass your bill if you want, but let Quebec pull out and keep its rehabilitative approach as opposed to a punitive approach, such as the one proposed in the bill”.

All those people are asking for this, and I fail to understand the Liberals' position. If we look at the members across the way, we see that they are keeping a very low profile. They were told to shut up, and they chose to serve the Liberal Party instead of the interests of the people. I am addressing my remarks to the Liberal members of Quebec in particular.

During the election campaign, you said “We will try to influence the government from inside and ensure that Quebec will be respected and that policies are adapted to Quebec's reality”. However, when they have an opportunity to express themselves on a bill that is unanimously rejected in Quebec—the opposition comes not only from the Bloc, but from all the main forces of Quebec—what do they do? I am looking at them right now, and they are not saying a thing. They remain silent, and they prefer to serve the Liberal Party instead of the interests of Quebec. They prefer to work for financial moguls who contribute to their campaign funds to the tune of $100,000 at a time, and for western Canada to try to get some votes there. They have turned their backs on Quebec.

Each time members from Quebec are elected as government members, the problem is the same. It is more obvious within the Liberal Party, because this is the party with two different attitudes: one during the campaign, when Mr. Chrétien speaks loud and clear, and a completely different one after the election. Then the Liberal members from Quebec suddenly become silent and ignorant. It is incredible.

I see people like the member for Anjou—Rivière-des-Prairies, who was a president of the Quebec teacher's corporation, a man who had a career, a man from the left who was even friendly with Khadafy in Libya, a leftist from Quebec who, suddenly, remains silent, in his seat, and repudiates his commitments, rejecting everything to serve the Liberal Party and all its underhanded practices.

I see people like the member for Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, an academic, who is not saying a thing, when all his peers have expressed their opposition to this bill. All the academics, all the university student associations, all the youth centres, all the legal community and all the police associations have said they are against this bill. But the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs says nothing and claims he to be serving Quebec's interests. Why, then, is he saying nothing? He remains silent, sitting back in his seat, oblivious of his duties toward Quebec. Is this not a totally reprehensible attitude? Why is the minister not fighting for Quebec?

Why does the newly re-elected member for Portneuf remain silent today, he who spoke against Pierre de Savoye, a great spokesman for Quebec? Where is the former minister who sharply criticized Mr. Turp, and won against him, while Mr. Turp rose almost every day in the House to defend Quebec's interests? In his maiden speech, he sullied Mr. Turp's reputation and then he claimed to be fighting for Quebec. Is it time for the member for Beauharnois—Salaberry to stand up. Why do you remain silent? Are you ashamed of your party? You should at least be ashamed of this bill, which is totally contrary to Quebec's interests.

You are here, in Ottawa, supposedly to fight for Quebec. To the hon. member for Beauharnois—Salaberry, the hon. member for Portneuf, the hon. member who defeated Ms. Alarie, such a good advocate for the riding of Louis-Hébert. You have taken her seat because of the municipal amalgamations. You told her “I will fight for Quebec”. Please rise, Madam, and speak up.

No member from Quebec wants to talk; no Liberal member from Quebec wants to talk. And yet, as I said earlier, everybody in Quebec is saying “no” to this bill, all the law enforcement community, all the people in the judicial system, all the academics, all the social services community. They are all saying that Quebec must have the right to opt out of this bill to pursue its own line of action, which is far better and, moreover, a source of envy around the world.

So why so quiet? In the last campaign, you promised to serve the interests of your constituents, to serve the interests of Quebec. Why do you say nothing? Why do we hear nothing from you? Why do you prefer serving the Liberal party to serving the interests of Quebec? It is unacceptable.

We will spread the word in your ridings. We will shout it from the rooftops. There is a campaign under way for a visit to all the regions of Quebec to tell them about the attitude of the Liberal members from Quebec, who say nothing, who prefer betraying Quebec to serving it. And that is unacceptable. Never has such a unanimous outpouring been heard from Quebec against this bill.

They must take a stand, they must speak up and tell their minister “Pass your bill, but back off in Quebec”. That is all we are asking and it would cost nothing

But it is not even that. It is all part of the Liberal party's centralizing philosophy which says “In the future, there will be national standards; there will be only one nation. The Quebec nation will not exist. The French fact will not exist. There will be one Canadian nation. And you people in Quebec will not have a voice”.

That is the Liberal party's philosophy, which the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs spouts and which the Liberal members from Quebec have decided to support, rather than serving their own constituents and listening to the alarm being raised by all Quebecers.

On that, I must close, because I have a meeting with some students from my riding, as it happens. I want to make them aware of this bill. But I must say one last time how well this bill shows, once again, that we would be better served by ourselves. If we were 100% ourselves, we would be much better off than being 25% of someone else. That is why this bill once again shows the need for Quebec to be sovereign.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to an amendment to the young offenders bill, which was brought forward by my colleague, the member for Berthier—Montcalm.

This amendment strongly suggests that Quebec be excluded from the application of the new legislation recently introduced by the Liberal government.

It must be acknowledged that, during the course of this debate on amendments to the Young Offenders Act, the Minister of Justice showed good judgement on one particular occasion. Do you know when it was? It was when she recognized that Quebec was incredibly successful in the way it enforced the Young Offenders Act.

In all her documents and even when she appeared before the Standing Committee on Justice, the minister recognized that Quebec had done so well with the Young Offenders Act that its success rate exceeded that of the Canadian provinces as a whole, with the lowest recidivism rate in North America.

So why change things? Why ignore Quebec's success just because the YOA was a total failure elsewhere and because the right—that has become more powerful over the last seven or eight years—wants children to be treated like adults, wants them to be thrown in jail just like adults?

Why a blanket policy? Why impose a new Young Offenders Act that makes no sense, thus ignoring the greatest consensus in recent years—a consensus supported by all stakeholders, who are against the fact that the Minister of Justice wants Quebec to be like any other province despite its successes?

When we talk about a consensus, we are not referring to a small one. The National Assembly has adopted a unanimous motion to postpone the review of this new Young Offenders Act, so that Quebec can keep on enforcing the law as it has always done with all the success it is known for.

In the last two and a half or three years since the beginning of the debate on the reform of the Young Offenders Act, we have heard from people who work with young people on a day to day basis. These people try to ensure that these young people benefit from a first or a second chance, that they are given a chance. This is what young people want. We have demonstrated it in Quebec.

When we react with an open mind and give them a second chance, most young offenders do not commit other offences. However, when we put them in jail with adults, it is well known that prisons become criminal factories for them. They have an opportunity to meet hard-core criminals, real criminals, and living with them, they soon become like them. We deny them the chance to rehabilitate.

In passing, I would like to congratulate my colleague from Berthier—Montcalm for his excellent work on raising awareness of the most important issues in this bill. He was telling me that he had met this afternoon with a University of Ottawa professor who had worked as a criminal lawyer in Alberta as well as in the Maritimes. He is well aware of the mess these provinces made in enforcing the Young offenders Act. He supports us. A University of Ottawa professor is supporting us in our opposition to changes to the Young Offenders Act.

Once again, this shows that, in Quebec, when this act was properly enforced, there were some success stories. We have an incredible rate of success in the rehabilitation of young offenders.

In recent years, there have been many testimonies. Among other things, speaking about a consensus, a coalition was created in favour of justice for minors. Here is what this coalition said in September 1999, when we were dealing with the bill that preceded this one, which contained almost the same provisions, and which died on the order paper because the election was called.

The Coalition pour la justice des mineurs said in September 1999:

Before throwing away sixteen years of practices, adjustments and case law to engage in a program that breaks with traditions almost a century old, parliamentarians must ask themselves if it is worth doing.

Will they have the courage to defend an act that is unanimously agreed on by those who know and use it, or will they give in to lobbies that are relying on misinformation to promote a program that is both mean-spirited and simplistic?

This tells a lot about the state of mind of those who oppose this reform. This reform makes no sense. It throws away all the efforts of people who work with young offenders to try to give them a chance.

There have been other testimonies by people known for their great competence on the issue of rehabilitation of young offenders.

Here is what André Normandeau, a criminologist from the University of Montreal, was saying in 1999:

People in western Canada still react as they did 20 years ago, at a time when the crime rate increased each year. They have kept more of a punitive approach. Changing the law is the easy way out, but, more importantly, it does not work. Violent criminals, who represent 10% of offenders, do not respond to coercion.

It is an easy way out to resort to the stick, or the whip, as my father would have said. It is an easy way out to play petty politics in referring to a supposedly increasing youth crime rate, which is wrong and refuted by every statistics.

It is an easy way out to engage in petty politics at the expense of our children's future. It is cheap. There is no other word to describe what the minister is proposing and to describe also the support she can get from her Liberal colleagues or from Alliance members. It is cheap to play politics with that.

It is cheap to use misinformation about an alleged increase in youth crime rate to show support for a right wing approach, for beating, or for the death penalty while at it. That is cheap.

First and foremost, we should think of our children. That is what we are doing in Quebec. Why not accept to exclude Quebec from the application of the new legislation? It would be so simple for some people to stop playing dumb and to open their minds to the fact that Quebec has made it work.

Why prevent us from continuing just because people from western Canada want to be tougher and Liberals are willing to go along? All they do is play petty politics.

Why not think of the children's future first? No wonder young people are no longer interested in what goes on in parliament. We are not listening to their concerns. We are ignoring their concerns. On top of that, we want to throw them in jail instead of giving them a second chance.

In what kind of country do we live? Sometimes I wonder. The Minister of Justice is thick as a brick and she is narrow-minded. I have never met anybody as narrow-minded as she is.

Today again, on another bill, the one aimed at strengthening the criminal code, we mentioned the fact that the solicitor general said that the bill would not apply strictly to criminal groups, that it could go beyond that. The solicitor general could authorize a police officer to commit crimes to enforce the new provisions of the criminal code.

That is the only thing wrong with this bill, but the minister could very well kill any support for her bill. The Bloc Quebecois has been calling for a strengthening of the criminal code for years to be able to fight crime more effectively. Why does the minister not go after real criminals instead of children? She should stop including in her legislation provisions that are too broad, thus killing any support we could have given her. She should open her mind.

I invite all my colleagues to vote in favour of the amendment proposed by the member for Berthier—Montcalm to exclude Quebec from the application of the new legislation.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Cumberland—Colchester, Fisheries; the hon. member for South Shore, Fisheries.

[Gérard Asselin, Bloc, Charlevoix, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today on behalf of voters in Quebec who elected us during the last election on November 27. This was a senseless election called by the prime minister, but it went ahead anyway.

Quebecers, especially those in Charlevoix, were lucky enough to be able to make a democratic choice and send to the House of Communes an MP with the mandate to defend Quebec's interests.

I am very proud to rise today in the House to speak to Bill C-7 on behalf of my constituents in Charlevoix, but most of all on behalf on young people in my riding. Our youth is our future. They will be penalized by Bill C-7 on young offenders.

The Quebec National Assembly is totally opposed to the federal bill. Once again we feel that the federal government wants to centralize through a legislation the former Reform Party had asked for. The minister, in order to win a few ridings in Western Canada, has rehashed legislation asked for by the Reform Party now called the Canadian Alliance, only to win a few votes in Western Canada. This is been done at the expense of one province, Quebec, which is managing very well under the Young Offenders Act.

Statistics show that we have a rehabilitation system in Quebec. There are institutions for young people, such as drop-in centres, where they are followed by psychologists and have access to guidance and training.

The purpose of all this is social reintegration. Sometimes, because of bad luck, depression or drug or alcohol abuse, a 16- year old girl or boy commits an unfortunate act. Right after committing that act, that young person deserves some form of reintegration, of rehabilitation.

According to Bill C-7, youngsters 14, 15 or 16 years old would be put in jail for an undetermined period of time. Putting a youngster away for ten years in a maximum security jail with adults, criminals, is like sending him to the university of crime.

It would be totally illogical to send a teenager who has committed an offence—oftentimes by order of an organized crime group—to “the pen” while organized crime members are free to come and go.

The young offender obeyed orders, either to make money or to act out violently or because he was acting under remote-control. He would be sent to penitentiaries, those crime universities, for an indeterminate period of time that, as I said, could be from eight to ten years. The minister agrees to all of this, she is fully aware of this.

She will know that in Quebec, the justice system, the police, the CLSCs, in other words all those involved are unanimously rejecting this bill and saying that the minister is mistaken. It is totally illogical to send teenagers to prison while criminals, who are clearly identified with their crest on their backs, go about freely.

Because she made a mistake we are asking the minister to introduce a bill to fight organized crime. We are also telling her that Bill C-7 is targeting the wrong people, young offenders.

Since it has not yet achieved sovereignty, Quebec is still subject to federal legislation. The federal government is about to pass a bill that would be bad for Quebecers, who are unanimously denouncing it. The courts, educational institutions, penitentiaries, the police, lawyers, judges, everyone is against it.

Because we have not yet obtained sovereignty, because we are still dependent on the federal government, we must give in. The Liberal government in power is about to muzzle us by saying: “We will end the debate at such time, on such day and proceed to the vote”. With its majority in the House the Liberal government will once again pass a bill that will affect our constituents, particularly young Quebecers.

During the 1995 referendum campaign, many Canadians came to Montreal to tell us how much they loved us, how much they appreciated us and wanted to keep us in Canada. They wanted our young people to vote no. The difference between the yes and the no sides was about 50,000 votes. More than 48% voted yes, and the federal government won by a slim majority.

Liberal ministers from Quebec and even the Prime Minister travelled extensively throughout Quebec and its regions, and they made all sorts of promises. But the Liberal government's promises do not wash anymore, or they will not, because Quebec's motto is I remember.

I hope those who voted no in the referendums will remember that, once again, the Prime Minister of Canada has lied to and misled the population. Today, the minister is trying to have a bill passed that will be detrimental to Quebecers and young offenders in Quebec.

It is unfortunate, but, in the circumstances, Bloc Quebecois members who are here to represent the young and Quebecers in general have to condemn this situation. I also find unfortunate the fact that the Quebec members in the government, the Prime Minister, who comes from Quebec, the Minister of National Revenue, who hails from Charlevoix, the Minister of Finance and the Secretary of State for Amateur Sport, who is also from Quebec, said during the election campaign “Vote for us. We are in power. We listen carefully. We can speak in Cabinet”.

Why are they not telling the Minister of Justice, who does not live in Quebec, who does not know or understand it, that everyone opposes this bill, which is skewing the whole legal system for young offenders in Quebec? Why are they not taking the minister to task? It means nothing to be in office today. What counts is the party line. The Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and the Minister for International Trade come from Quebec as well. There is a fairly sizeable group from Quebec, who should have some influence on the minister.

Here again, the focus of the minister is to meet the demands made at the time by the Canadian Alliance and say “We are looking after that, we in the Liberal Party. We are getting organized”. Unfortunately, the Liberal members from Quebec are totally out of this debate. None of them is rising. They smile at us, almost arrogantly. What is the member for Québec East waiting for?

I think I see Jean-Paul Marchand rising here today and criticizing the situation. I see Hélène Alarie, the member for Louis-Hébert at the time, rising and doing the same thing. I can also see the former member for Frontenac—Mégantic, Jean-Guy Chrétien. He would have torn his hair out here in the House in his unbridled criticism of the situation and in his whole-hearted defence of the interests of the young people in his riding. I think I can see the former member of Frontenac—Mégantic expressing his disagreement to the minister.

On the Liberal side, however, a number of members have probably left for supper, and the others still here are totally out of this debate. And yet, they were elected.

I close in the hope, once again, that the minister will accept the amendments to Bill C-7 proposed by the Bloc Quebecois. I would like to congratulate the member for Berthier—Montcalm for his excellent work in this.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my voice is not in the best of shape for me to speak today, but I really wanted to make a speech on the young offenders legislation. This is a very important piece of legislation for Quebec.

I find unfortunate the position of the government where it refuses to recognize the realities of Quebec. With this bill, we are seeing the same lack of flexibility of federalism when it comes to recognizing Quebec's realities and approaches.

It is insult that is made today to Quebec's National Assembly, which voted unanimously against this bill that make the Young Offenders Act tougher. We know that for our young offenders who have committed a severe crime, a crime that is unacceptable in our society, but who need a particular approach or reinforcement, the bill will run counter to everything that was put in place in Quebec to help them.

We are not alone in this fight. In Quebec, many stakeholders have in fact supported our colleague, the Member for Berthier—Montcalm, in the battle that he has been waging for many years against the justice minister's bill.

The minister insists on enforcing an act that goes against what is being done in Quebec. Each problem is different, and this is exactly the approach taken by Quebec. Each problem is different, and each one has a different solution.

The new act that the minister wants to adopt, which is focusing mainly on the seriousness of the offence, underestimates the needs of young people. It does not deal with the young person, with the one who needs a special approach or individualized treatment.

The Quebec approach is successful and it has been said that, at 23%, the Quebec criminality rate it is the lowest in Canada. What Bill C-7 will do is to change the face of juvenile justice. It will change gradually. We all know that the attorney will be the one who will do justice. Whether he will enforce the minister's bill or adopt Quebec's approach remains to be seen however.

We can only be against this bill. The government claims that there will be flexibility and that the provinces will have some. But this is nothing else than smoke and mirrors. It will be up to the attorney. There is nothing in the bill confirming that Quebec may carry on as it would like to.

We thought that the amendments put forward by my colleague from Berthier—Montcalm would persuade the Minister of Justice. But no, quite the contrary. I do not think she will be persuaded. She is digging her heels. From her answers, it is obvious that she is stubbornly refusing to understand what is being done in Quebec. But we will not give up.

As we know, there is a tour of Quebec going on at present. Through it, Quebec public opinion will be heard louder and louder. The public is becoming more and more aware of what is going on here in the federal parliament.

I would like to make particular mention of the generous contribution of Marc Beaupré, a young actor who wanted to add his voice to the campaign. He plays a troubled youth, Kevin, in the televised serial Les deux frères . In order to see what it was like for a youth in jail, he spent time there himself. He was able to see for himself how much it was a school for crime. In just a few days, he was able to learn some of the tactics taught in the schools for crime that are our prisons.

We must not bury our heads in the sand on this. We know very well that, when a person is treated like a criminal, rehabilitation becomes harder. We know very well that there are no more true life sentences, that the person will be coming back out into society. We must do everything possible to reclaim our youth, to give them every possible encouragement, while at the same time making them accept the seriousness of what they have done. This is the approach used in Quebec at the present time. The young offender is made aware, made to understand right from the start the serious nature of what he or she has done, and immediate assistance must be provided as well.

With the minister's law in place, we will no longer be able to take that approach, to intervene as appropriately, as promptly, as necessarily as is often required, with the young person who has committed an offence.

We are very disappointed, because we have the support of many people. I can tell the House that the list of those who support us is impressive. André Normandeau, a criminologist from the University of Montreal, supports the Bloc Quebecois' approach, as does Cécile Toutant, a criminologist and a member of the Quebec Bar Association's subcommittee on young offenders, Jean Trépanier, a criminologist, and André Payette, a spokesperson for the Association des centres jeunesse du Québec.

I could read out pages and pages of names of people who support us, but I will stop here, because it is truly discouraging to see how stubbornly the government is pushing this bill through.

We hope that our offensive today will show that we are not going to give up and that we will keep on hoping right up until the last minute that the minister will finally recognize what is being done in Quebec.

I would like to read an excerpt from the Jasmin report, which goes as follows:

It is often easier to amend legislation than to change our approach to a problem. It may be tempting to think that tougher legislation is the answer to the problems of delinquency. Simplistic responses blind us to the full extent of complex problems and create the false impression that we are doing what is necessary to resolve them.

One such simplistic response is substituting get-tough measures for educational approaches. Doing so, however, loses sight of the fact that adolescents are still developing, and lays all of the blame for their delinquency on them, as if society and the environment they live in had nothing to do with it.

I think that we all feel concerned. When a young person commits such a serious offence, I think that all of society should feel responsible. Our legislation and approaches must be realistic. They must be rooted in reality.

I am going to support the initiative of the hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm. I find it sad that members of this parliament are not rising to speak today. Where are the Liberal members from Quebec? The Liberals from Quebec said they were going to have one voice in parliament. When they were campaigning, they were very interested in mergers. We are not dealing with mergers here; we are dealing with the new Young Offenders Act, which is going against the Quebec approach.

Like my colleague for Charlevoix was saying, where are the Liberal members from Quebec? Where is the member for Louis-Hébert? Where is the member for Québec East? Where is the member for Portneuf? All of them are members of the Liberal Party that got elected in the last elections.

We, in the Bloc Quebecois, are here to speak for the interests of Quebec. We will never let go because we are not afraid to talk loud and clear about the consensus existing in Quebec. This bill will be one more example of the federal government's inflexibility concerning Quebec.

All the youth centre support the legislation already in place in Quebec; they are against the minister's bill because its approach is not good for young offenders and their rehabilitation. We will never say it enough.

Today, I might not have had the voice to make a speech, but I was trying to express my concern over what is proposed in this bill.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, to follow up on my colleague from Quebec, despite her voice that gave her some difficulty, are we to assume that all Liberal members from Quebec also have a sore throat? She has the courage to speak out on behalf of all Quebecers.

It is with great interest that I speak to this bill. In September 1998, when I was elected as the member for Sherbrooke, I proudly committed to representing the interests of residents of my riding, my region and Quebec.

I have been constantly in contact with youth centres, with the Coalition des travailleurs de rues, with different youth workers. I know quite well several people who work with young people in my region.

When I look at young people, I remember that, one day, there was born a child, an exceptional child, a sovereign being to whom people wished only good things, the best things in the world, both for the mind and the body, and also intelligence.

However, even when an exceptional and sovereign child is born, it is not certain that child will be able to live comfortably in society. Numerous actions and contacts throughout his childhood and his adolescence will mould him, develop him and shape his behaviour. Likewise if, unfortunately, this young person ever commits some wrongdoing, it is difficult for us to determine why it happened. We know that each person is different, and can commit certain offences, but the first thing that we must do is to help that person because, as I said earlier, this individual is not allowed to function like this in a society that has laws, regulations and even biases. We must of course identify the causes of that person's reprehensible behaviour and deal with them.

When we look at the bill, at how it is drafted and at what it proposes, we realize that the government's priority is to establish a list, label crimes and define the price to pay by the young offender, instead of developing a set of personalized measures for each young person who commits an offence. We know that it is possible to take action at that level, so that these young people will later be able to contribute in a very positive way in society.

Instead of using a personalized set of measures for young people, the bill tries to define the seriousness of the offences and, for all intents and purposes, make the individual pay on that basis. Let me go back to young people's power to make decisions. Through its acts, the government is telling us that a person under 18 years of age is not allowed to vote or to decide for himself if he can smoke. That young person does not have that power. A young person under 18 is not allowed to drink beer moderately. He is not allowed to make such a decision.

On the other hand, the government wants to make that same person responsible for actions which, as I said earlier, may be due to any number of circumstances in which a young person lives in our society. It is difficult to identify the real problem, but we must take every measure possible to make that young person able to function. If he has made a mistake or done something deplorable, we must help him. The first principle is early intervention.

In Quebec, there are many stakeholders today who gained a solid experience in intervention and supervision, helping young persons learn how to function in our society. Should we always proceed punitively? I am very sceptical about that. Why did we say that, on the one hand, the bill against organized crime does not go far enough while, on the other hand, the bill respecting young persons goes a little too far? Are we to understand that the government maintains automatically, as the saying goes “He who steals a penny will steal a pound”? I do not agree, but this is what the government says automatically.

Since September 14, 1998, I have direct contact with people involved in criminal justice in my riding. Only yesterday, as part of the tour being carried out by my colleague from Berthier—Montcalm, we met with quite a large group of stakeholders.

This group included many young persons who are familiar with this situation, young persons who saw some of their friends faced with situations that were sometimes painful, to say the least. These people witnessed how Quebec stakeholders rehabilitated some young persons who, if Bill C-7 had been in effect at the time, would have been lost. One day, these young persons would have ended up being dealt with under the organized crime legislation.

It is obvious that the members of the Bloc Quebecois are acting in good faith, are being caring and are acting out of love for the young people. We ask the Quebec members of the Liberal party to also act in good faith and to honestly say that, in Quebec at this time, the Young Offenders Act adequately meets the needs of the young people. Thanks to this legislation, they can have access to workers who give them guidance. However, such an approach is expensive.

Instead of investing $200 million or $250 million for the enforcement of this legislation, the federal government, which often speaks about its great generosity, should transfer a pro rata share of this money to Quebec, so that we can continue to enforce the legislation we now have in Quebec, where it is undeniably yielding good results.

If all Quebec members honestly and sincerely declare that they want to protect the young people of Quebec, I think that all the Liberal members will vote against this bill, alongside Bloc Quebecois members, to make sure that our youth can has a chance at happiness.

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis-Et-Chutes-De-La-Chaudière, QC]

Mr. Speaker, like the member for Quebec, I believe it is my duty to rise today to speak against the bill. It will be extremely detrimental. It will fly in the face of the approach developed by hundreds if not thousands of people who have been working for years with Quebec youth; this approach has a proven track record.

It is based on rehabilitation and the needs of young people. It is individualized and specific. It does not include automatic haphazard punitive measures without any regard for the context and the situation of the young offender.

Before daring to hand out harsher sentences, and considering sentencing young people at an ever younger age to adult sentences, the government should first prove to us that the approach put forward by Quebec is no good. It is in fact quite the contrary; it has yielded very good results, as a matter of fact the best in Canada, as mentioned on many occasions by the member for Berthier—Montcalm. He has done an outstanding job of reaching people working in the field in Quebec and consulting them. Of course he first studied the act very carefully. And then he consulted workers in the field, which he has been doing for a long time.

The government is seeking to respond to a need or request voiced in one area of our country, more specifically western Canada—where there is a right wing movement, we must say—and try to apply this approach coast to coast, including in Quebec, when we have the lowest youth crime rate. As a matter of fact, statistics show that youth crime rates have been dropping throughout Canada.

It is quite incredible to see that, when the situation is improving and not deteriorating, the government has decided to pass a bill that is even harsher and that holds our young offenders responsible for their acts by punishing them. This is quite inconceivable.

Since 1993, with other members of the Bloc, we sometimes visit various provinces in Canada. I will always remember that, in the fall of 1994, with my colleagues from Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques and Mercier, I was part of a tour that dealt with social programs, and we found out that, depending on the province, there was a different culture and a different mentality, but also different social problems, different ways of treating problems. The rest of Canada tends to depend more on the central government than Quebecers.

Quebecers, however, federalists as well as sovereigntists, have always had more confidence in their own government, in the government that is the closest to their problems, especially social problems, such as those we are talking about today.

To talk about young offenders is to talk about teenagers. To talk about teenagers is to talk about the future. When we send these teenagers to prison, thinking that we will rehabilitate them by doing so, we are in fact putting them in a school for crime.

Recently, I heard a speech by Marc Beaupré, who went on a consultation and awareness raising tour with the hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm. He told us that he himself stayed two days in prison—not to serve a sentence of course—but as a learning experience. In those two days, he was taught many things. We can only imagine what he would have learned had he stayed longer. He gave that as an example. He learned a few of the tricks taught in the school for crime.

In a few minutes, I will name the members of the Coalition pour la justice des mineurs, just to show how strong the Quebec consensus is.

However, I would first like to point out that, as second reading of the bill, I have made a speech, as had certain members from Quebec, including the member for Beauce, who had said that they had consulted youth organizations and that what they heard was different from what the member for Berthier—Montcalm was saying. I wanted to check because he and I live in the same region. I called those who had attended the meeting to know their opinions.

They all told me that their opinions had not changed. They said that, on the contrary, they told the member in question that he was mistaken, that he was headed in the wrong direction, but he kept saying that the government had consulted.

Maybe they did not give him a hard time, because people who work with teenagers do not usually favour the aggressive approach for obvious reasons, but they did make him understand that he was headed in the wrong direction. Despite that, members from Quebec do not talk much in the House, and when they do, it is to say that it is not that serious.

I will now give a list of members of the Coalition pour la justice des mineurs because it is worth mentioning. They are: Commission des services juridiques, Conseil permanent de la jeunesse, Centrale de l'enseignement du Québec, Jean Trépanier of the University of Montreal School of Criminology, Fondation québécoise pour les jeunes contrevenants, Institut Philippe Pinel, Association des directeurs de police et pompiers du Québec, Conférence des régies régionales de la santé et des services sociaux, Association des centres jeunesse du Québec, Crown Prosecutors' Office, which comes under the Quebec Minister of Justice, Association des CLSC et des CHSLD du Québec, Marc Leblanc of the University of Montreal School of Psyco-Education, Regroupement de justice alternative du Québec, Child Welfare League of Canada, Canadian Criminal Justice Association, Association des avocats de la défense du Québec, Société criminologie du Québec. And there are a few more.

That is a lot of people. I am not sure how many, but these groups must represent hundreds and thousands of people who work with young people daily. They are part of a coalition that came here to condemn this bill, but the government is still turning a deaf ear.

I agree with those who suggest that, if the rest of Canada—and by that I mean all the provinces except Quebec, because we are still part of the Canadian federal system—wants this bill, let the government add a clause granting Quebec the right to opt out, if we have a flexible federal system, with the support of a consensus in Quebec that includes members of the National Assembly, all Quebecers, all the stakeholders I just enumerated, the young people and their parents.

This would make a lot of sense. There are precedents for this in many areas, like the civil code, on questions that are under Quebec's jurisdiction, contrary to what exists in other provinces. Education is a provincial jurisdiction. Why stubbornly try to have a uniform Canada, and why treat everybody the same way when it is obvious for everybody that there are differences out there, that there are two nations in this country? Let us show some respect for the Quebec people by letting them determine how they are going to educate their children.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak to the bill in respect of criminal justice for young persons, at report stage. As a matter of fact, this legislation is better known as the Young Offenders Act.

That legislation has caused much ink to flow over the last several years. It carried various numbers and each time the federal government came up against a solid and strong consensus by Quebec stakeholders. Those stakeholders say that this punitive approach which tends to be very severe toward young people and to punish them by sending them to jail instead of keeping and developing an approach of co-operation and rehabilitation, is unacceptable.

The government says it has to change the model. Yet statistics show that the existing model is working well, that the youth crime rate in Quebec is lower, that rehabilitation is having good results and that recidivism is very low. However, over the last few years, because of the rightist wind blowing from the west and carrying the justice minister who comes from that part of the country and represents a western riding, the federal government steamroller has been obstinately persisting on imposing this model. That is very sad.

After all, the major strength that helped the hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm in carrying the issue so efficiently is that there is nothing better in democracy than knowing that one's cause is directly connected to what people wish and want.

As we have seen in the past and are seeing now, it is not a political party that is opposed to this bill, it is a society. There is in Quebec a society that has developed a model and that wishes to maintain this model. Indeed, we have something that is successful and that is working better than elsewhere.

Societies must be open to other environments. When a good idea is being developed in the rest of Canada, in the United States or in Europe, we can take it and use it in our models. But when we have something that is working very well in Quebec, we would like to use it. We do not want the federal government to barge in order to change the situation and bring us back to a situation that Quebecers do not want. We are seeing this today, we have seen this with the list of people who have supported the legislation and the organizations as well as individuals that are supporting it.

The testimonies we are receiving are from young people who have been through the system. Instead to going to jail, they had the chance of going in close treatment, in environments where they are forced to reflect on their situation. We force them to ask themselves what led to such behaviour. We help them with psychologists, with social workers.

This is not necessarily easier. I think this is the tough solution, the hard road to go, but this is giving them a chance to turn their act around.

The other way is easier. In jail, they learn all kinds of things, things they do not need to know for the rest of their lives and things that lead to unacceptable behaviour.

The human aspect is the most important. I have three children; one 17 year old, another 15 year old and a 10 year old who will soon be 11. I would not like to see my children find themselves stuck in the criminal system for the rest of their life because they had made a mistake. If a young person makes a mistake, I hope he gets an opportunity to correct his behaviour, understand his mistake and what it entails. There is an important educational aspect to the issue. It is refreshing to see that people have understood that.

We often read in the newspapers about the plight of some people. A crime is committed by a teenager and for five days, the media repeat that he has been identified, arrested and then he is brought to trial and goes through all the subsequent stages. People have understood that these are the exception, not the rule.

The rule is that we succeed in rehabilitating our young offenders and making them responsible citizens, people who, in the end, have learned to behave.

The attitude of the federal government should have been more focused on investing money in the system and make a maximum effort. The rest of Canada does not want that system so let us try to find a way to answer their needs. If we want Quebec's system to continue to operate and show good results, we have to invest money in the system and allow Quebec to make the best possible use of available resources for the benefit of teenagers, in order to continue to reduce the crime rate and to get the best possible rehabilitation.

The federal government does not have this attitude, which is surprising. I will mention a few members, such as the members from Québec East, Portneuf, Bellechasse—Etchemins—Montmagny—L'Islet, and Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok; the last two members represent ridings next to mine. What message did these members receive from their constituents for them to say so little?

When it is time to vote, I wonder if they will have the courage to say “Our system in Quebec works well. We will never accept this Canadian model, which does not suit us, which will thwart the efforts that have been made for several years”.

In legislation, principles come into play, but ultimately some resources are also involved. We will end up in a situation where more and more money will be needed for penitentiaries, to deal with the repressive aspect of this legislation, while all that money would have been needed for prevention. There is not a word about that in the bill.

Where are Quebec's federal Liberals in this debate? Why are they keeping so quiet? Is this not an issue on which they will have to vote?

I know I will have a few minutes left that I will be able to use when we resume debate on this bill, but I urge all members in the House to listen carefully to the message that all Quebecers are sending them.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member. He will have three minutes left to finish his speech when we resume debate on this bill.

The House resumed from May 15 consideration of the motion that Bill C-10, an act respecting the national marine conservation areas of Canada, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas Act

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

It being 5.30 p.m. the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded division on the motion at the second reading stage of Bill C-10.

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Division No. 99

[The Speaker]

I declare the motion carried. Accordingly, the bill stands referred to the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

(Bill read the second time and referred to a committee)