Debates of May 16th, 2001

Motions For Papers

[The Speaker]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

Message From The Senate

[The Speaker]

I have the honour to inform the House that a message has been received from the Senate informing this House that the Senate has passed certain bills, to which the concurrence of this House is desired.

The House proceeded to the consideration of Bill C-7, an act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to amend and repeal other acts, as reported (with amendment) from the committee.

Youth Criminal Justice Act

[The Speaker]

There are three motions in amendment standing on the notice paper for the report stage of Bill C-7, an act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to amend and repeal other acts.

Motions Nos. 1 and 3 will be grouped for debate, but voted on as follows: a vote on Motion No. 1 will apply to Motion No. 3.

Motion No. 2 will be debated and voted on separately.

I will now put Motions Nos. 1 and 3 to the House.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

moved:

Motion No. 1

That Bill C-7 be amended by adding after line 43 on page 7 the following new clause:

“3.1 The lieutenant governor in council of a province may, by order, fix an age greater than ten years but not greater than eighteen years for the purposes of exemption from the application of this Act and the provisions of any other Acts amended by this Act, in which case the Young Offenders Act, as it reads at the time the order is made, continues to apply in that province.”

Motion No. 3

That Bill C-7, in Clause 199, be amended by replacing line 18 on page 169 with the following:

“199. This Act replaces the Young Offenders Act, except in a province that makes an order under section 3.1, in which case the Young Offenders Act remains in force in that province.”

Mr. Speaker, I wish to take this opportunity to say that the amendments moved by the Bloc Quebecois are inspired, and this is easily understandable, by the situation in Quebec.

I wish to remind the House that the member for Berthier—Montcalm has recently travelled across Quebec to explain to young stakeholders the threat that Bill C-7 represents.

If there is a warning we should issue to this government, it is to say that it should not try to impose on teenagers a criminal justice system made for adults.

In recent weeks, the member for Berthier—Montcalm has met many people, including teenagers, directors of youth centres, law enforcement officers, social workers in local community service centres or elsewhere. The member for Berthier—Montcalm has travelled from one end of Quebec to the other. He went to Jonquière, to the Lower St. Lawrence, to the Matapédia, to Bonaventure.

Stakeholders and teenagers who were made aware of the possible consequences of Bill C-7 all had the same reaction. They all wanted to know what these consequences would be. The fact is that the youth justice system will no longer be focused on teenagers and their characteristics, but on the nature of the offence.

This balanced attitude towards the young offender, his past and his rehabilitation will now be replaced by a plan exclusively focussed on the offence. Let us be straightforward about this: all other factors related to the personal history of the young offender, and to his rehabilitation potential will take a backseat. Our amendment would allow Quebec to keep its tradition and programs of the last 20 years and more.

My colleague, the chief whip of the Bloc Quebecois, will certainly agree with me that caucus proceedings are secret. But I think he will let me break this well established rule in our institutions by saying that we had the visit of a young actor in caucus this morning.

Marc Beaupré, the actor who plays the role of Kevin Teasdale in a very popular TV series, Les deux frères , has agreed to join the Bloc Quebecois campaign. What is this campaign about? The likeable and dynamic member for Berthier—Montcalm has already travelled throughout Quebec for this campaign. A pamphlet has been put out, and I would have liked to have it here, but logistical problems have made this impossible.

The hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm has lead this campaign on behalf of all his Bloc Quebecois colleagues. It is called “Donnez-nous une chance”. What does that mean? It means we should refrain from automatically criminalizing young offenders.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I hope the hon. member will excuse me. There have been further consultations which are moving us all toward further enlightenment. I think you would find consent in the House to revert to routine proceedings for the purpose of three items.

[The Speaker]

Is there unanimous consent of the House to revert at this stage to routine proceedings?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, obviously there seems to be some misunderstanding among the House leaders and I invite them to work it out. I do not like to be disturbed when I am in the middle of something.

The member for Berthier—Montcalm led a campaign that took him all over Quebec. What we heard from young people during that campaign was “Give us a chance”. I see that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice is with us today. I would like to remind him that there is a consensus in Quebec. I challenge anybody on the government side, including Liberal members from Quebec, to give us one example of a person working with youth who does not support the Quebec consensus.

I was saying a few moments ago that the actor who plays the role of Kevin in the television series I mentioned, Marc Beaupré, a talented actor—and he is not partisan—accompanied the member for Berthier—Montcalm when he went to Jonquière, Rivière-du-Loup, the Lower St. Lawrence, the North Shore, all over Quebec. I was told about the warm welcome he got from the residents of the North Shore, and we all know the tradition of hospitality that is personified by the member for Charlevoix. It must be realized that a consensus does exist.

Marc Beaupré, the actor, gave us an example that I will share with the members. It may be a minor violation of caucus confidentiality, but it will not cast a shadow over my legendary discretion.

Marc Beaupré was leaving the Joliette area in his car. He accepted to give a ride to a female hitchhiker whose exact age is unknown but who looked to be in her early 20s, maybe less, perhaps not quite 18.

[An hon. member]

Sixteen.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, remember when you were sixteen.

So, Marc Beaupré accepted to give a ride to this young girl who had had a difficult life and had been placed in a drop-in centre, a youth centre. She talked to Kevin, played by actor Marc Beaupré, and said that notwithstanding the difficult circumstances of her life that had brought her to commit an offence, she had a good experience in the youth centre, because she became aware of a number of things, developed certain talents and, more importantly, established a meaningful relationship with a youth worker.

With the new Bill C-7, which puts the offence at the heart of the decisions that the judiciary will have to make, if that person had been held in a regular institution, a penitentiary or any similar institution, could she have had the same meaningful relationship she had in a youth centre? Of course not, because the prisons are not focused on rehabilitation.

In keeping with the consensus in Quebec, when young people commit offences, misbehave, violate the law, we are not saying that they should not be punished or that we should grant them absolution, we are saying that efforts must be made to try and understand why they acted the way they did. These young people should be allowed to benefit from rehabilitation experiences.

In Quebec there are youth centres, specialized institutions that allow young people to have a meaningful relationship with a youth worker and to get some learning experience. This learning experience is sometimes more focused on the professional aspect and sometimes more of a soul-searching exercise. Some young people need to do some soul-searching, to understand why, in certain circumstances, they tend to have a violent behaviour. Where did they learn that, in society, when there is a conflict, when there are problems to be solved, mediation must be through violence? Some youth workers provide training workshops. Sometimes these are about professional life, sometimes young people learn a trade. And sometimes, these workshops have nothing to do with that, they deal with the soul-searching some young people must do.

Frankly, if Bill C-7 is passed, we do not believe that such a thing will be possible. We do not believe this is desirable for the mental stability of young people.

Another argument was brought to our attention. I ask the government to consider the approach taken by the hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm, to consider that there is a special rehabilitation system in Quebec and to allow some sort of opting out, so that Quebec can apply the whole system, whose value has been proven, a system that defence lawyers, youth workers and the CLSCs are calling for. With current system, whose value has been proven in Quebec, I believe it will possible to rehabilitate young people.

Committees Of The House

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, following renewed and successful consultations among all parties in the House, I wish to deal with three items.

First, if the House gives its consent I move that the 18th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs presented to the House earlier this day be concurred in.

Second, if the House gives its consent I move that the 19th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs presented to the House earlier this day be concurred in.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motions agreed to)

Private Members' Business

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, on the third item, I believe you would find consent for the following motion. I move:

That Bill C-222 and Motion No. 241, both private members' business items, be substituted for one another in the order of precedence.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of Bill C-7, an act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to amend and repeal other acts, as reported (with amendment) from the committee, and of Motions Nos. 1 and 3.

Youth Criminal Justice Act

[John Maloney, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be able to respond today to the opposition's motion to amend Bill C-7, the youth criminal justice act. Motion No. 2 calls for section 125 to be amended to make disclosure of information about young persons mandatory rather than permissive.

Section 125, like the Young Offenders Act, specifically recognizes the interest of schools, professionals and other persons engaged in the supervision or care of a young person in receiving information when a young person is dealt with under the youth criminal justice system.

Section 125 allows the provincial director, the attorney general, a peace officer or any other person engaged in the provision of services to a young person to disclose identifying information with any professional or other person engaged in the supervision or care of a young person, including a representative of a school. It does so under the following circumstances: to ensure compliance for the young person with a court order; to ensure the safety of staff, students or other persons; or to facilitate the rehabilitation of the young person. This can be done without a court order.

The section expands the Young Offenders Act provision that was included in 1995 by adding the authority to disclose information to facilitate rehabilitation of a young person. It is important that privacy protections are a hallmark of the youth justice system in Canada. Any disclosure of identifying—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The Table needs to know whether the hon. member is speaking to Motion No. 1 or to Motion No. 2?

[John Maloney, Liberal, Erie—Lincoln, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am actually speaking to Motion No. 2, but I will be getting to Motions Nos. 1 and 3 subsequently.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

I am sorry to inform the member that we are on Motions Nos. 1 and 3 and the hon. member should limit his remarks to those motions. We will come to Motion No. 2 a bit later.

[John Maloney, Liberal, Erie—Lincoln, ON]

Mr. Speaker, Motions No. 1 and 3 would allow a province to opt out of the youth criminal justice act and continue to apply the Young Offenders Act. Although some have questioned the need for new youth justice legislation, it is apparent that most Canadians feel that the Young Offenders Act is not working effectively as a legislative base for the youth justice system in Canada. More than 16 years with experience with the Young Offenders Act backs up the perception that there are many real problems with the law.

The proposed youth criminal justice act would address key problems with the Young Offenders Act. It does not reflect the coherent youth justice philosophy. Its principles are conflicting and do not effectively guide decision makers in the youth justice system. It has resulted in the highest youth incarceration rate in the western world per capita, including that of the United States. It has resulted in overuse of the courts for minor cases that could be better dealt with outside the courts. It has resulted in disparities and unfairness in sentencing. It fails to ensure effective reintegration of a young person after being released from custody. Its process for transfer to the adult system has resulted in unfairness and delay. It fails to make a clear distinction between serious violent offences and less serious offences. It fails to recognize the concerns and interests of victims.

The proposed youth criminal justice act effectively addresses these problems in a manner that also provides considerable flexibility for the provinces to implement the legislation to reflect local needs and circumstances. However there are appropriate limits to this flexibility. The youth criminal justice act is founded on federal criminal law and criminal procedure power. There should be only one youth criminal justice law operating in Canada and fundamental legal principles would be respected.