Debates of May 18th, 2001

Census Records

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the privacy legislation will be respected and we will act according to the law. If there are questions about the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the courts will be the ones to settle them.

Youth Criminal Justice Act

[Chuck Cadman, Canadian Alliance, Surrey North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the attorney general of Ontario held a press conference this morning on the youth criminal justice act. Ontario is just one more opponent to what has been almost universally described as ineffective and inefficient legislation.

This mess will be dropped into the laps of the provinces that must administer it. Why did the government not listen to the provinces? Why is it merely going through the motions of attempting to con Canadians into believing that something is being done to improve the youth justice system?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I find it somewhat interesting that my colleague, the attorney general of Ontario, came to Ottawa this morning and indicated some concerns with our youth criminal justice legislation when his officials had the opportunity to appear before committee but, as I understand it, refused to take that opportunity.

Let me say that we believe our new youth justice legislation is premised upon the values of Canadians and premised upon three important considerations. They are: prevention, meaningful consequences when crime occurs, and rehabilitation and reintegration into society.

Over there they say it is too tough and over there they say it is too soft—

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. member for Surrey North.

[Chuck Cadman, Canadian Alliance, Surrey North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the attorney general described the legislation as being onerous, time consuming and filled with roadblocks to the successful treatment of young offenders. Others have also complained of the complexity.

I proposed numerous amendments to simplify and reduce the delays in the process, but they were not accepted. The government has had at least six years to improve the youth justice system. Little has changed other than the rhetoric and the name of the legislation. Why?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, that is untrue. In fact, as the hon. member knows, we listened very carefully to the many dozens and dozens of witnesses that the committee heard. The government brought forward some 182 amendments to our youth criminal justice legislation.

I certainly take exception to the hon. member's comment about the legislation being unduly complex and onerous. We have done everything to streamline the legislation. Again I can only say that the legislation strikes the right balance in terms of youth criminal justice and reflects the values of most Canadians.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on the subject of interventions with young offenders, Quebec and Canada take different approaches. For Quebec, it is a matter of rehabilitation, for Canada, repression.

The former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, Mr. Justice Dickson, said that parliament could legitimately tolerate differences among the provinces, which reflect distinct and rational values and political sensitivities.

Will the Minister of Justice agree that she can satisfy Ontario and Quebec by letting Quebec go ahead and opt out?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as I have said on numerous occasions in the House, our youth justice legislation is sufficiently flexible to permit the province of Quebec to continue the things that it is doing.

Therefore I think the legislation reflects the general comments made by the former chief justice of Canada, Brian Dickson.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in the light of the remarks by Mr. Justice Dickson, who said that there is nothing to prevent the minister from allowing Quebec to opt out, we put the challenge to her today.

Is the minister prepared to allow Quebec to opt out? We will then see in five years whether Quebec or Canada has the better record in juvenile crime? Will she rise to the challenge?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the former chief justice of Canada, Brian Dickson, did not comment about any province having the right to opt out. What Brian Dickson was talking about was that within the context of uniform federal legislation in relation to youth justice, provinces could apply that legislation flexibly.

As I have said before in the House, we have worked very hard to ensure that the provinces have flexibility in the application of the new youth justice legislation.

Aboriginal Affairs

[Reed Elley, Canadian Alliance, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, in a leaked cabinet document dated February 15, 2001, and entitled “Consultation Strategy for First Nations Governance”, it is clear that the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development wants to bring in legislation to the House by the fall of this year.

If this is true and if the bill is not already drafted, does the minister think that a few months over the summer are sufficient to consult with thousands of native people on this very important matter?

[John Finlay, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, the member is misinformed. He is dealing with one statement that this would happen over the summer as if that was the end of it.

This will take two and a half years. We will consult with the chiefs. We will consult with people on reserves. We will consult with the people involved in the difficulties of management among our first nations.

[Reed Elley, Canadian Alliance, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister has said that he will consult with native people through the use of the Internet and chat rooms. When I talked to native people they said that they would rather have adequate plumbing in their houses than be plugged into the Internet. Maybe the solicitor general and the minister of Indian affairs ought to get together on this.

When will the minister get his priorities straight and ensure that native people across Canada have the essential tools to live healthy and productive lives?

[John Finlay, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, this is exactly what the effort at governance is to do.

The Indian Act encroaches upon normal operations of reserves, of the chiefs and of the administrators, the people elected to do the work. What we need to do is give them more responsibility and more range so they may make the decisions that are best for them with respect to economic development, education and so on. With some co-operation, we look forward to advancing the whole business of governance.

Budget Surpluses

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Minister of Finance confirmed that this year's surplus of over $15 billion wildly exceeds his forecasts, as usual.

The member for Markham, formerly a Royal Bank economist, said yesterday, on television, “The Minister of Finance introduced errors so that the surpluses would be larger than forecast for political reasons”.

Will the Minister of Finance admit that his behaviour is unacceptable and anti-democratic and that hiding the real surpluses, year after year, as he has done for four years now, prevents a real debate on the public's priorities?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, first, the member is well aware that he is quoting the member for Markham out of context and that this sort of approach does nothing to help matters.

Concerning the fundamental issue, we are absolutely prepared to debate priorities. There are two or three days set aside each year for a debate here in the House on the government's options.

The member sits on the Standing Committee on Finance. He is certainly entitled to ask committee members to hold such a debate and, as I said yesterday, I would be prepared to attend.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in these circumstances, why is the minister refusing to grant me two requests I made yesterday?

The first was to submit all his forecasts of revenue, spending and surpluses to a committee which is independent of the Minister of Finance and his little banking friends. The second was to allow a real parliamentary debate on the use of his surpluses, not just on their size but on their use, before he brought down his budget.

We certainly think that it is important to pay down the debt, but the public has other priorities, such as health and education.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the member has all the tools at his disposal, but the problem is that he does not wish to use them.

First, we have the debate on the estimates, which the member can use. Second, there is a debate here in the House before each budget. It may be that the member does not take part, but we do indeed have a procedure in place. Third, there are always opposition days.

All the member has to do is use the means at his disposal.

National Defence

[Peter Goldring, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Centre-East, AB]

Mr. Speaker, an official DND report states:

The Sea King helicopter is over 30 years old and has received no significant update in capability. It is operationally and materially obsolete. The age and stage of the avionics of the aircraft cause it to be exorbitantly expensive to maintain and also cause it to be operationally irrelevant when it does fly.

When are the Sea Kings going to be replaced?

[John O'Reilly, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, the government is committed to the acquisition of 28 new maritime helicopters through a competitive process that is fair, open and transparent.

Ultimately, when we spend Canadian taxpayer dollars on large projects such as this, it is the government's responsibility to decide the best procurement strategy for Canadian taxpayers, and that is what we are doing.

[Peter Goldring, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Centre-East, AB]

Mr. Speaker, again we get vague and evasive answers.

This same official report states that helicopter delivery will not be completed for another 10 years. Yes, another 10 years. This official report gives the date of July 2011. A 25 year procurement nightmare will continue until Canada Day 2011.

If the assistant chief of defence staff knows when the helicopters are coming, why does the minister not know?

[Alfonso Gagliano, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, we are committed. When we announced our procurement strategy last fall we indicated that we hoped the first helicopter would be delivered in 2005. We stand behind that statement.

The Environment

[Charles Caccia, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, in recent weeks intensive representations have been made by Elizabeth May on behalf of people living near the Sydney tar ponds.

The Minister of Health has promptly and persistently acted upon her representations. Would the Minister of Health inform the House about the latest development resulting from his efforts to protect the health of families living near the Sydney tar ponds?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, later today the Minister of the Environment and I will be issuing a statement to draw attention to a proposal we have put to the government of Nova Scotia, our partner in the JAG process.

The proposal has four elements: first, that there be soil testing and analysis on the residential properties and blood analysis and hair analysis of the residents of those properties; second, that we have chronic health risk assessments commenced now; third, that there be meetings with the residents affected at which JAG and other people will provide plans and counselling; and, fourth—

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. member for Winnipeg Centre.