House of Commons Hansard #67 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was offenders.

Topics

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

David Anderson Canadian Alliance Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Mr. Speaker, I do not know how the government members could possibly justify the taxation method that they have in the country. People are overwhelmed by taxes. We talked this afternoon in question period about fuel taxes that are stressing people out.

If we ask the kids in our high schools today if they feel safer than they did a few years ago they would clearly say that they do not. They do not feel that those people who are threatening them are being dealt with in a way that would remove them from the system and keep them safe.

The bill offers discretion in every area. That is just an excuse for people not to put in effective legislation. If we offer discretion in every possible area, then we could say that we have set it up that way, but everyone would know that we do not intend to use it that way. It has just become a bureaucratic mess and it may get worse.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Dennis Mills Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Mr. Speaker, I feel privileged to have an opportunity to speak on the legislation. I would like to come at the legislation from a different point of view.

I have been listening to most of the speakers here today and I have heard some good ideas coming from all sides of the House. I especially want to acknowledge some of the thoughts put forward by the member for Wild Rose who spoke earlier today.

I personally do not support the notion of a boot camp but I am very much in sympathy with the notion of creating environments for young people where they can achieve an atmosphere of discipline and athleticism because all those things affect the development of the whole person.

The preamble of the bill states:

Whereas members of society share a responsibility to address the developmental challenges and the needs of young persons and to guide them into adulthood.

With that preamble in mind, I want to share with the House an experience I had last summer in Tor Vergata, Italy, which is a university campus just outside of Rome. Last August, on behalf of the members of the House of Commons, I attended the World Youth Day event led by the Holy Father. This was the eighth or ninth World Youth Day event. It is an event where young men and women come from all over the world to celebrate the values of sharing and caring for each other.

What I experienced at the event, which was attended by close to two million young people from all over the world, was an attitude and a spirit I have never witnessed in my entire life. I was in attendance with the premier of Ontario, Mr. Harris; his minister responsible for the World Youth Day celebrations coming to Toronto; Mr. Chris Hodgson; and our mayor.

I raise this event today in the House because it can serve as an example to members of parliament. They can draw on it in working together to mobilize and motivate all the machinery of government around the whole area of youth crime prevention. It can help build the confidence, vision and hope of young people and teach them that the values of caring and sharing are central to building the fabric of the country.

For members of the House who may not be up to date on the project, in July 2002 Canada is hosting the next World Youth Day celebration in Toronto. We as a nation, along with the Catholic church and the Conference of Bishops of Canada, will be inviting probably close to a million people from all over the world to come to Toronto for five days from July 18 to 28.

When these young people come together they will be demonstrating to us as parents and legislators that they are interested in working in their own communities and countries on issues related to personal development, human development and whole person development.

This is one thing I wish we could talk about more today when debating the legislation before us. I sense that members of the Bloc Quebecois are much more sensitive about the notion of personal development and growth than many of us, quite frankly. They have done a magnificent job in the debate today in talking about the personal growth of young people.

I wanted to speak to the bill today and remind the House of World Youth Day because it is a concrete example of where all members of the House have come together with over 13 departments of the Government of Canada to touch a million young people from all over the world.

Our former ambassador to Russia, Ann Leahy, and her assistants in Toronto are busy organizing the event. I wanted to put it on the record today because as the year unfolds I do not think we as members of parliament can do enough in the whole area of prevention, of touching young people before they are put at risk.

I believe that has been the mission of the member for Wild Rose for most of his life as an educator. It was the primary point he was trying to get across today in the House when he talked about his experience as a principal and an educator. He said we need the tools that will allow us to assist in the personal development of young people.

I go back to the preamble of this piece of legislation which reads:

Whereas communities, families, parents and others concerned with the development of young persons should, through multidisciplinary approaches...respond to the needs of young persons, and...provide guidance and support—

That is where I want to come from. We do not do enough in Canada to build dreams and hope and give proper instruments of support to young people. Quite frankly that is why I am pleased that we as the House of Commons have been so united in promoting this event which is coming to Toronto in July 2002.

Some people have not connected with the profound impact the project will have. I will give an example. If we hosted the Olympic games we would touch, at most, 300,000 people per day. With this project we will be touching one million people or five times that number. I will be splitting my time with the member for Chatham—Kent Essex.

On behalf of the House of Commons and the entire federal team under the direction of former Ambassador Leahy, Cardinal Ambrozic, Bishop Meagher and Father Thomas Rosica, I want to convey that we believe in working with young people to develop the whole person. We will be with them in Toronto in July 2002.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Myron Thompson Canadian Alliance Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, I believe prevention is the key to success with young offenders. There is no doubt about that.

The member and I could debate all day about the effectiveness of so-called boot camp. The ones I have seen are very effective. I encourage him to visit one some time just to take a look and make up his own mind from what he sees.

I think he would agree that good parenting is a good thing to have. A good solid home makes a big difference in the lives of young people. In the province of Alberta a poll was taken of working mothers. Seventy-four per cent said they would prefer to stay home with their children if they could afford to do so, but they could not. We have been after the government for some time to give tax relief to families who choose to keep a parent at home. That has never occurred. Could the hon. member tell me why?

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Dennis Mills Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Mr. Speaker, I could not agree more with the member. A mother should be given the option to stay at home or to work. If a mother chooses to work, obviously that is not a debatable point. However if she wishes to stay at home and raise her children, there is no way tax policy should punish her for doing so.

It is no secret that I have been a passionate supporter of that idea for many years. Those of us who believe in the idea will keep promoting it so that one day a majority of us in the House will realize that it is a very special experience and a very special gift for young people to have a mother who chooses and can afford to stay at home and give that added amount of time to her children.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for New Brunswick Southwest, National Defence; the hon. member for St. John's West, Unemployment.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jerry Pickard Liberal Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in debate at third reading of Bill C-7. The introduction of Bill C-7 followed a lengthy period of consultation and review.

I remind members not only of the breadth and depth of the study that preceded the introduction of the bill but of the very strong arguments that were put forward to make sure the Young Offenders Act and the youth justice system would be changed. I further point out the extent to which the youth criminal justice act responds to the recommendations of task force and standing committee reports tabled over a number of years.

When the current Young Offenders Act was last amended in 1995 the government reiterated its commitment to conduct a comprehensive review of the legislation and the operation of the youth justice system. After a decade of experience with the Young Offenders Act it was time to step back and assess how the legislation and the youth justice system were working, and how they could be improved in ways that took into account the concerns and values of Canadians.

The standing committee on justice and legal affairs was asked to undertake an extensive review of the youth justice system. In carrying out its review the committee convened round table discussions, held a national forum, canvassed various parts of the country, heard from witnesses representing more than 100 different organizations and received more than 100 written briefs. The standing committee on justice and legal affairs released its report entitled “Renewing Youth Justice” in April 1997. It included significant findings about the youth justice system and made 14 recommendations for change.

Contributing to this comprehensive review by the standing committee was the report of a federal-provincial-territorial task force on youth justice. The task force, established in 1994 by the federal-provincial-territorial ministers responsible for youth justice, was given a mandate to review the Young Offenders Act and its application. The task force was composed of provincial, territorial and federal officials with expertise in youth justice. Its members worked in prosecution services, correctional services, statistics and research, youth law policy and law enforcement.

In proposing its response to the standing committee report entitled “Renewing Youth Justice” the federal government took into account not only the findings and recommendations of the report but also the findings of the task force and calls from Canadians across the country for a strategy to change the Young Offenders Act.

As a result, a strategy for the renewal of youth justice was released in May 1998. The strategy sets out the basic themes and policy directions contained in Bill C-7 and, perhaps more important, the rationale. The strategy identifies three key weaknesses in Canada's youth justice system.

First, not enough money is being put into the system to prevent young people from falling into a life of crime. Prevention has been mentioned by almost everyone in the House. My colleague who preceded me was very much of that mind and many members of the House have said very clearly that prevention is important. This is the direction in which we need to go.

Second, the system must improve the way it deals with the most serious violent youths, not just in terms of sentencing but in terms of ensuring they are provided with extensive, intensive, long term rehabilitation that considers their interests and those of society.

Third, the system relies too heavily on custody for the vast majority of non-violent young offenders when alternative, community based approaches could do better. The system must instil social values, help right wrongs and ensure that valuable resources are targeted where they are most needed.

In response to these weaknesses, the new strategy proposes to renew Canada's youth justice system with a focus on three key areas: crime prevention and effective alternatives to the formal youth justice system; meaningful consequences for youth crime; and rehabilitation and reintegration of young people. All of these, working together, will help society have a better system.

It commits us to target custody as a response to the more serious offenders and to provide more meaningful community based sanctions for the vast majority of youth crime, thereby contributing to a reduction in Canada's youth incarceration rates, which are among the highest in the western world.

For provincial and territorial governments, the federal financial commitment takes the form of a five year financial arrangement worth a total of $950 million to support the implementation of the youth criminal justice act and the overall policy objectives of the youth justice renewal initiative. The new agreements promote and support a wide range of services and programs considered most likely to assist in the rehabilitation and reintegration of young persons in conflict with the law and in reducing reliance on the youth court system and incarceration.

Additional federal funding would also be available to support the development of programs required for the implementation of the new intensive rehabilitation custody and supervision sentencing option. These financial arrangements are an important component of the flexible implementation phase undertaken in close co-operation with the jurisdictions.

Through the youth justice renewal fund, provincial and territorial ministries responsible for youth justice may apply for grants and contributions to assist in the preparation for and implementation of the youth justice renewal initiative. Funds are available for activities related to training, community partnership development or expansion, reintegration planning and support and implementation contingencies. Examples of such activities include: assessment of staff training needs in light of new legislation; development of policies that will govern youth justice committee work; review of policy and procedural materials; and development and delivery of orientation sessions on the new legislation for frontline workers, managers, administrators and youth justice committee members.

With respect to the legislative process, let me note that prior to the third reading of Bill C-7's predecessor, Bill C-3, the election call came. However, the government's commitment to move forward with new justice legislation remained strong. The Speech from the Throne to open the first session of the 37th parliament of Canada stated that the government would reintroduce legislation to change how the justice system deals with young offenders. New legislation would encourage alternatives to custody for non-violent offenders, emphasizing rehabilitation and reintegration into society while toughening consequences for more violent youth.

This commitment to reintroduce youth justice legislation has been kept. Bill C-7 was introduced in the House of Commons on February 5. Bill C-7 is basically the same bill previously introduced as Bill C-3, except that Bill C-7 incorporates government amendments that were made public before the election call. The inclusion of these amendments demonstrates once again the ongoing consultation that is accompanying this bill as it moves through the parliamentary system.

The government has consulted and listened. Many views have been expressed, some diametrically opposed to others. The overriding goal is to put in place a youth justice system that is fair and effective, and that is what Bill C-7 would do.

The substance of Bill C-7 has been open to public scrutiny for a long time. Its introduction was preceded by lengthy studies and consultation. Now is the time to move forward and replace the Young Offenders Act with the youth criminal justice act, an act that would instil values such as accountability, responsibility and respect, which are long overdue in all of our systems. This is an act that would result in the kind of youth justice system all Canadians want.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Myron Thompson Canadian Alliance Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Speaker, again I hear a speech that follows the rhetoric that the justice minister has put forward for the last seven or eight years. No matter who the justice minister is, it is the same kind of carrying on in terms of rhetoric.

I would like the member to understand first of all that I do not believe that young people who commit non-violent crimes should even be in jail. I believe there are some good answers as to how to deal with young people who decide they are going to break the law in a non-violent act. I do not think jail accomplishes a thing for them. Maybe after they commit many non-violent acts we may have to jail them, but for at least the first one or two times it is not necessary.

I constantly hear from that side of the House that it would be a shame, for example, if the principal of a school expelled a violent student from the school system. I constantly hear that the person needs to stay there and learn and get educated and be rehabilitated within that society. When will the government recognize that in regard to any student who is a well known violent individual maybe the 400 other students would be better off and safer without that individual there?

When will the government start considering the safety of neighbourhoods by saying that we need to open up the information banks? What about someone who was once in jail for murdering a senior and then is living next door to a senior couple, which has happened many times? Why is the government so adamant that violent people have to be treated with kid gloves?

Violence is something that has to be taken out of our society. People should not be subjected to individuals who have constantly proven to be violent. We all know it happens all the time. This system allows it to happen. When will it stop? When will let young people learn that they cannot violently hurt people and get away with it, that it is a very serious crime and that very serious consequences will follow? When will we stop treating violence with kid gloves?

I do not see anything in the bill or hear anything that comes out of the mouths of those people that indicates the government is really serious about protecting the innocent victims. We never even hear those people use those words any more. Instead it is “rehabilitate the poor guy”.

This violence has to stop. What does this member suggest we do?

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Jerry Pickard Liberal Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member for Wild Rose for giving me an opportunity to clarify that position. I, like he, spent 25 years in education and I certainly am very aware of what can happen when young people disrupt the classroom. It is very unfair to all the other people in the classroom. When children are disruptive, do not allow the classrooms to operate and do not allow things to work, I do not think there is a colleague in the House, either on this side or that side, who would think that those children have to be in that classroom and continue to disrupt it daily. That is not the case. I do not believe it to be the case. I certainly would never support it and I know that most of my colleagues would not support it either. It is an accusation that is not supported by my colleagues or myself.

The hon. member was very clear about separating the non-violent people and not incarcerating them but instead giving them some guidance, support and help. That is very important. The non-violent people should have guidance and support where it is required. However, as far as the violent offender is concerned, with this bill we would have a lot more latitude in dealing with the violent people the member referred to. It is not just about putting them behind bars, but we can do that and we will do that. It is not just about sending them to adult court as adults, but we will do that under the bill. That is very clear.

This is not about just dealing with them on one basis, putting them in jail, locking them up and saying that is the end. Per 100,000, Canada has more young people locked up than any country that I am aware of. We have in jail 1,000 per 100,000 young people who commit crimes. In comparison, the United States has 700 per 100,000. The U.S. numbers are much lower. The Americans do not incarcerate as many young people.

The fact is that those young people need more help, a tremendous amount of it. They need guidance. They need counselling. I believe the members of the—

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Order, please. I regret to interrupt debate, but I am particularly sensitive to the large number of colleagues who wish to speak in the time remaining.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Paul Forseth Canadian Alliance New Westminster—Coquitlam—Burnaby, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am splitting my time. I have been given only 10 minutes to speak on third and final reading of Bill C-7.

Third reading is the time to talk about the general thrust of a bill as a whole. There has been a lot of talk and deliberation about this type of legislation since the nationwide consultation conducted by the Conservative government during 1992-93. It was attempting at the time to address the anger in the land that had developed over the operation of the Liberal legislation of the day.

At this point we as a country are still not much further ahead, because the Liberals are still in charge. Since they have caused the present problem with the law, they are not now in any position to repair the basics of their errors. The Liberals have had reviews and some small amendments, but this time they are to be judged by the public on what they are finally bringing to the communities of Canada.

The bill is an example that goes to the heart of the competence to govern. In the broadest estimation the bill is an utter failure. It is a failure in many technical ways, but on the general level it is another example of why the Liberals are not worthy to govern. The bill is an example of a bureaucracy entangling itself with objectives that are at cross purposes, combined with insufficient political leadership to provide guidance out of the forest.

Although many political analysts admit that the Liberals are without principle, the bill is certainly the technical evidence that the Liberals have no canopy of values to find the moral compass of direction when they become lost in the tall forest of competing interests and opposing concepts.

The nation is in this mess because of a previous Liberal government that in its usual high purpose, we know best manner, with all the great arrogance of the day, gave us the Young Offenders Act over the clear objections of millions of Canadians. In many respects the very objections and warnings given years ago about the folly of the underlying assumptions about social psychology and of the criminal justice theory assumptions have all come true.

Here we are now, years later, still trying to fix the flaws. True to form, the arrogance of the government over the bill, which would be an administrative labyrinth, brings us convoluted fixes to the problems that the Liberals created. They can never fix their dilemmas as they do not possess the vision or the principled perspectives to address what the community needs in order to respond to the most fundamental Canadian social problems.

The minister claims with self-satisfaction that the enactment would repeal and replace the Young Offenders Act and provide principles, procedures and protections for the prosecution of young persons under criminal and other federal laws. The bill sets out a range of extrajudicial measures. It would establish judicial procedure and protection for young persons alleged to have committed an offence. It would encourage participation of parents, victims, communities, youth justice committees and others in the youth justice system. It sets out the range of sentences that would be available to the youth justice court. It would establish custody and supervision provisions. It sets out the rules for the keeping of records and protection of privacy. It provides transitional provisions and makes consequential amendments to other acts. In summary terms, those are the claims of the government.

However, it is obvious that the government has failed, particularly at the operational community level and at the levels of broad themes and societal objectives. The Minister of Justice has tabled legislation three times and three times she has struck out.

Like most Liberal bills this is well intentioned, but it is barely an improvement over the old YOA. It does not address the concerns of Canadians, including provisions for realistic sentences for violent crimes, focusing the law to deal truly with young offenders rather than youthful adults or comprehensively accommodating victims' rights needs.

British Columbia has had a legislative basis for diversion since 1968, some 33 years ago. Street diversion and community programs for offending youth, especially through Christian churches, were working in the urban settings of Canadian cities for years before matters became of such national concern that parliament began to deal with it in about 1908.

When Liberals talk of their bill, one would think that the alternative measures and diversions were invented by them. Parliament has been struggling with a criminal set of rules at cross-purposes to address the specialness of young offenders seemingly forever.

Since we have had mostly Liberal governments, we as a society have never been able to put to rest these issues. Now we have a bill that is so complex that it caves in upon itself trying to accomplish broad and competing objectives.

We need to clarify the basics. We are striving for a set of rules that would outline how criminal law would apply to a child or a young person. It is assumed that there is a diminished capacity for a young person to appreciate criminal acts and therefore they should not be subject to the full weight of the law. As the bill shows, the Liberals have fallen all over themselves. They have tied themselves in knots because they do not have a guiding vision.

In each province we have social welfare legislation with large systems of care, including social workers who have the legal capacity to take into care with the full authority of a legal parent any child who is deemed to be in need of care and protection. If we had a wise but simple and more circumscribed youth criminal justice act, it could complement and support the social welfare mandates of the provinces.

We could have a supportive law that would help break the cycle of offending and more fully support the huge amounts of money that is spent in community responses. However the latest managerial disaster of the government is off target in this respect because philosophically the Liberals do not stand for anything.

A dichotomy is revealed in the bill. Through many convoluted provisions it tries to deal with the principle of diminished capacity for young people, but in a most complex way it tries to accommodate violent offenders and criminal code precepts such as protection of society and denunciation. Gradually victims are being allowed back into the scene. The bill is most inadequate in that regard also.

Community expectations of a government providing peace, order and good government are not met in the bill. The anger in the land over public observance of how young offenders are dealt with generally in the courts would not be diminished by this prime example of Liberal ideological confusion.

It is clear that the government wants a bill, any bill that is in the topic area, just so that it can say it has one. However when the fundamentals of secrecy, age of application and a confusion of focus is the substance, we can understand why the Liberals have refused all the contrary evidence provided by so many that they should be going in a different direction.

It goes to the heart of how we as a society value family and children, how we care for those who do not seem to be able to care for themselves and help those who are out of step with community norms. It is about the knowledge to care. If a social welfare agency, a social worker and a school authority are to be part of the community response for children in conflict with the law, they must be knowledgeable and fully informed. That must not be discretionary.

People in my community are aware of young offender cases. They observe what happens and they follow a case through the community. They are not part of the process and anger begins to increase. They watch time and time again as the case slowly winds through the system and then they react. They call their local MP and they sign petitions of protest.

Parliament has received millions of signatures in objection to the philosophical underpinning of the bill that we have before us today. People almost have a fatalistic approach. With a law that is so out of touch with community values they have just given up protesting at this point.

In view of what I have heard over the years, I can say that my community does not support the bill and the underpinnings within it. I cannot justify it either. Consequently I will be voting against the bill at third reading.

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4:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rick Casson Canadian Alliance Lethbridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise to speak to the bill today. It takes me back to the first year I campaigned for this job in 1997. When I went door to door, one of the topics at the time was the Young Offenders Act and the changes that people wanted to see.

I remember one business that I went into. The gentleman was completely distraught over the fact that he could not get any justice for the problems he had been having with young offenders. It is interesting to note that many years later Bill C-7 still does not address the issues that so many Canadians are concerned about.

I compliment my colleague from Surrey North who has made it his life's work to bring in proper youth justice in Canada. Some of the amendments he put forward would have made great additions to the bill. Every amendment we put forward would have strengthened the bill, made it more receptive to the needs of Canadians and would have made our streets safer. These were the underlying factors for putting forward our amendments to the new youth justice act. We wanted our streets to be safer so people could feel more comfortable in their homes and in their daily lives. The member for Surrey North put a lot of effort into those issue. He knows from personal experience what can happen when young offenders go wrong.

One of the things our party proposed and probably one of the most contentious was the lowering of the age range from 12 to 18 to 10 to 16. People said that we would be locking up 10 year olds but that was not what we were talking about. We were talking about helping young people in trouble, and heading in the wrong direction, to get back on track and become better citizens in order to contribute to society in a way that all Canadians should.

Our party wanted a clear definition of a violent offence. We wanted a schedule of offences so there would be no necessity to play legal word games in the courts and no need for millions of dollars to be spent in legal costs for arguments and appeals. We should have a list of what a violent offence means. We should include the offence of murder plus all the listed offences in schedule I and II of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act. These are the offences Canadians want to see listed as violent offences. Those were in the amendments we brought forward.

We proposed the deletion of the term presumptive offence within the legislation. We preferred the term violent offence to determine when a young person ought to receive adult punishment. We proposed the deletion of the term serious violent offence because we felt that all violent offences were serious and that it should be left up to the courts to decide the punishment in those circumstances. However violent offences must be handled in a specific manner to protect our citizens and our communities.

We proposed an overriding principle making the legislation the protection of the public. We heard time and again that the government placed more emphasis on the interests of the offender than on the protection of citizens. The protection of our communities should not take second place to anything.

We proposed the limitation of extrajudicial measures to first time non-violent offenders and only if those extrajudicial measures were adequate to hold a young person accountable. Accountability is a part of the act that really needs to be highlighted. Young people and their parents have to be held accountable. If we did that it would put some real meaning into the legislation.

We proposed a requirement for the attorney general to inform victims of their specific rights. We felt that was important. We proposed that the principles of denunciation and deterrence be included within the legislation. A big aspect of any youth justice act should be methods of deterrence.

We proposed that an adult sentence be imposed on young persons who commit violent offences after their 14th birthday. The range of adult sentencing would still be left up to the courts, and that would include youth style punishments, but 14 and 15 year olds who commit violent offences would be held accountable for potential adult sentencing. Some people felt that proposal was fairly harsh but we were talking about serious, violent and repeat offenders. We must deal with those people in such a way that our communities will be safe and our public will be protected.

We proposed that young persons who commit violent offences be identified for the protection of the public. People wanted to know who those young offenders were and what they had done. They felt they had the right to know if somebody who was capable of a violent offence was living in their community.

We proposed that a young person who received a life sentence through adult court should receive parole eligibility between 10 and 15 years at the discretion of a judge. This was an increase from the present range of 5 to 10 years, to put a little more bite into the legislation.

We also proposed an increased maximum sentence for violent offences other than murder. Bill C-7 would bring a custody period followed by a supervisory period with supervisory time to be one-half of the custody time.

We put forward all these proposals as amendments to the legislation. They were researched and had the benefit of the firsthand knowledge of the member for Surrey North. Not one of them was accepted.

We ended up with a bill that appears to be the same as Bill C-68 and then its subsequent Bill C-3 and now Bill C-7. There is no change. There is no more bite in the bill and no more protection for Canadians than there was in the bill introduced as Bill C-68. After months of review and hearing experts from all aspects of youth justice, the only changes made include many of the technical amendments proposed by the government to correct errors in Bill C-3.

The government has not been open to change on any aspect of the legislation. There were hearings where witnesses came forward with many good ideas and with firsthand experience. People involved in the youth justice system brought forward excellent ideas that were not accepted. All the opposition parties, except the Bloc, presented substantive amendments to Bill C-3. None of them received debate in parliament. None of them appear to have been considered by the government.

The provinces will be tasked to administer this legal nightmare but the federal government does not seem to care. The government has not been open to serious discussion over the proposals in its youth justice law. There needed to be more willingness on behalf of the government to listen to Canadians, the experts and the other parties in the House of Commons to improve the law.

The government has promised $206 million over the first three years for the implementation of the bill, but it would not even come close to meeting the responsibility of providing 50% of the funding for youth justice. The government has allowed federal funding to slip to about 20%.

This does not only apply to the bill. We have seen that in other areas of government responsibility where it has historically committed funding to a certain level to help the provinces administer the laws that are created here. The funding has decreased from 50% to 20%.

The provinces have to carry that financial burden and to take that extra cost into their own budgets to administer a law that many of them are not happy with because it does not go far enough.

An initial review of Bill C-7 indicates that the government has made it even weaker likely to appease the Quebec government and the Bloc Quebecois. That was one thing we saw. It said that if the Canadian Alliance thought it was too soft and the Bloc thought it was too severe it had to go right down the middle of the road. We do not agree with that at all.

The age range of application will remain at 12 to 18. Many people thought 10 to 12 year olds that were starting to get into trouble needed some help. They needed someone there to pull them back, to help them out and to put them back on the right road. That has not happened and these young people are still out there without direction.

The restrictions on naming violent offenders have not been put into the legislation. It is up to the courts to do that. That was something of critical importance to Canadians.

After the entire process of bringing the bill forward three times this will be its last debate before it is voted on this evening. We still do not have what Canadians have asked for. A lot more could have been done with the overall philosophy that the protection of Canadians as a whole should be the meat of the bill. If the government had kept that in mind, it would have had a bill that Canadians would have appreciated and supported.

Youth Criminal Justice ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, I commend my hon. friend for his comments. They were very precise comments that delved into ways in which the legislation could have been improved. I would also attach myself with his complimentary remarks to the member for Surrey North who found out in a firsthand way the tragedy that can be invoked for families and victims in the criminal justice system.

My question, specifically, is about a reference that he made to lowering the age of accountability to 10. I have a slightly different take on this. I would like to get his reaction. It deals with the element of transfers.

Currently in our justice system we have the ability to transfer a person who fits the definition of a young offender, that is a person between the ages of 12 and 18, into the adult court system, whereby there is judicial discretion based on evidence to take the person and try them as an adult.

I would like to suggest to him that a system that would apply similarly where a young person aged 10 or 11, who had committed a serious offence and had escalating behaviour as identified by police or counsellors, could be transferred through a courtroom based on evidence and submissions made by interested parties and stakeholders before a court of competent jurisdiction, by using the same principles of transfer. A child could be brought into a court system where the circumstances permitted, for the good of the child and the community.

This would be of great benefit and would enhance our current system. It would enhance public protection, deterrents and rehabilitation, all those elements of our criminal justice system that we want to encompass in this and future legislation. I would like to get his remarks on that suggestion.

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5 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rick Casson Canadian Alliance Lethbridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend's input into the youth criminal justice act has been noted and appreciated. His expertise in justice issues is appreciated by all members in the House.

Any method we could use, whether it is a transfer through courts or whatever, to bring these young people some much needed help is important. That is the problem. We are not seeking to lock 10 to 12 year olds up. We are trying to do is to help these young people. A lot of our young people are not in a family situation that most of us would recognize. They do not have a mother and father in a responsible relationship and the right instruction to go out and be good citizens. They need that, and a lot them are crying out for it.

As a nation, we should be able to take these young people and get them on the right track before they go too far wrong. To not do that is a crime. We are turning our backs on some large numbers of young people. If we had the ability and the legal right to reach out, help them and bring them back, we could make a lot of difference to a lot of young people. Unfortunately, this legislation does not allow us to do that.

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5 p.m.

Erie—Lincoln Ontario

Liberal

John Maloney LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Mr. Speaker, I am a little confused. Is the hon. member suggesting that we should have a further separate system for those between the ages of 10 and 11 or 11 and under? He referred to large numbers of individuals in this category.

The statistics I have show that roughly 1.5% of the incidents reported to police involve children under 12. Of that, 81% are property offences and 19% are violent offences. Two-thirds of the violent offences are minor assaults. How does the hon. member justify those statistics with the approach that my hon. friend is suggesting, even though public opinion indicates that the preference is that these children be dealt with in the mental health system and mental health intervention?

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5 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rick Casson Canadian Alliance Lethbridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, in my opinion one young person lost is one too many if with a little help he or she could have turned the corner and become a productive member of society. We need to do whatever we can to ensure we reach out to as many as we possibly can.

The statistics the parliamentary secretary offered probably are factual, but the fact is that whatever fraction of a per cent it is, one young person is too many.

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5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Suzanne Tremblay Bloc Rimouski-Neigette-Et-La Mitis, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am glad to share my time, because the more views expressed in this House the better.

The clock is ticking. Usually, I am pleased to take part in the House's debates. Today, however, I am quite sad to have to repeat once more what I said before: this bill will leave Quebec unable to extend a helping hand to young offenders who are themselves victims more than anything else when they turn to crime.

They need help, not coercion. It is unfortunate that we have before us a bill that does not please anyone. Alberta is obviously not pleased at all with this bill. Ontario and Quebec are not either. If we were to consult the residents of all of the provinces, we would probably find out that a majority of Canadians are against this bill.

There is only one flicker of hope left. It may sound strange, but let us hope that the Liberal senators will be more intelligent and more understanding than the Liberal members from Quebec and will come up with the necessary amendments to make this bill more palatable to Quebec.

When I hear people say that they would like this bill to be even harsher, when I hear them talk about 10, 11 and 12 year olds and in some cases 8 year olds, I cannot help but wonder what planet this is. In what kind of country do we live in if we think, even for 30 seconds, that we should take 8 to 12 year olds and hand them over to the justice system because they did something we see as reprehensible, when the first question we should be asking ourselves is what kind of education they have received? What kind of school do they attend?

What kind of primary care has society been providing to them since birth for these children not to be able to behave as we would like them to behave even though they were born with the full potential of becoming perfectly balanced citizens?

It makes me very sad, and I hope all Canadians will know it tonight through television, to think that in a few minutes members will vote in favour of this bill. Those who vote against it will do it for two reasons. For some, the bill does not go far enough, it should be even harsher. For us, Quebecers, it goes too far.

The legislation is so rigid, contrary to everything the minister said, that it will be impossible for any province to apply its provincial system of justice and the approach it wants to use with young people.

It is astounding to see that the minister is totally deaf to all our pleas for justice for children. Finally, when we think about it seriously, two things are wrong: there are two officials sitting at the justice department who see this as a personal victory. The bureaucrats are in the process of defeating the parliamentarians. Since 1993, they have been trying to impose upon us a legislation that makes no sense whatsoever. These two officials, along with the minister, are challenging us. They keep telling her not to back down.

This is what is so sad here: the bureaucrats are working against the parliamentarians.

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5:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gurmant Grewal Canadian Alliance Surrey Central, BC

Mr. Speaker, I rise on behalf of the people of Surrey Central to make our final statement in opposition to the youth criminal justice system, which the Liberals are about to force upon our nation. This is third reading of the bill and the last opportunity we have to try to force the government to change it.

I want to take a moment to appreciate the hard work done by all my colleagues, first in the Reform Party then in the Canadian Alliance, particularly my neighbour and my friend, the hon. member for Surrey North, who has worked quite hard on the legislation.

The debate provides this side of the House with the chance to summarize the great failing of the justice minister in her attempt to change the Young Offenders Act. Speech after speech in the House, witness after witness in the committee, bill after bill in the House, the government has not listened to what Canadians want in terms of addressing youth crime. In all regions of the country there is opposition to many aspects of the bill. However the justice minister will not listen nor address these concerns, despite the fact she stated in the House that her top priority was to deal with the bill.

Experts with a wide range of specialties were generous with the government in terms of providing testimony, recommendations and amendments, but still the weak, arrogant Liberal government did not listen to them. The government continues to reintroduce the bill, but it has failed to address the important issues facing this nation.

We are now facing closure on debate on the bill. The government wants to hastily pass a bill which will not work. Even the senators are upset because they will not get enough time to deal with the bill.

When the arrogant, weak Liberal government passes the legislation, the complexity and loopholes will cause horrendous delays and costs to our youth criminal justice process. Legal bills will be phenomenal.

The government has not been open to change on any aspect of the legislation and has refused to accept amendments. Oppositions parties, except the Bloc, have presented meaningful and significant amendments to this bill, but the government failed to address them.

I can say so many things about what the government missed in the bill, but my time is limited. However I will say that the federal government did not consult Canadians about it. It refused to listen to Canadians. It refused to have extensive consultations with various provinces prior to bringing forth these new procedures. The provinces will be tasked to administer the legal nightmare, but the federal government does not seem to care.

In conclusion, using closure to stop debate to move the bill through, clearly shows that this arrogant, weak Liberal government does not care about the youth criminal justice system in the country. Protection of the public and victims take second fiddle in the government's regime.

As I have said, if this legislation passes, its complexity and its loopholes will cause serious and horrendous problems with extremely high costs to the Canadian society.

As a parliamentarian I am ashamed to stand in the House and tell the government, which does not listen, that the bill will fail because it does not address the real issues.

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5:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

It being 5.15 p.m., pursuant to order made Monday, May 28, it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and to put all questions necessary to dispose of the third reading stage of the bill now before the House.

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

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May 29th, 2001 / 5:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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5:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

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5:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

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5:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

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5:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

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5:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

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5:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen: