Debates of Sept. 20th, 2001

National Defence

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since the Minister of Foreign Affairs seems satisfied with the consultations, I have a question for him.

The launching of an operation as important as Infinite Justice is no small affair. How can the minister be pleased with the consultations, given the magnitude of such an operation and the fact that, as we all know, if a military request is made to Canada and our allies, it will be based on the operation that was launched? Is the minister pleased with that?

Is the government satisfied with the consultations that it may or may not have had, according to the Minister of National Defence, with the United States?

[John Manley, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, this is not exactly the problem with the situation. If we are asked to participate, the decision is up to us. What we are dealing with here is not action taken by the United States that involves the participation of Canadians.

In the context of the building of an alliance between states, not only through NATO but elsewhere, I believe the consultation process was more than adequate.

Social Insurance Numbers

[Carol Skelton, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Speaker, last November a Canadian company met with HRDC officials to discuss new software for social insurance numbers. Department officials said the software has the capability of eliminating the most common forms of identity fraud but the department rejected the software. Why would the minister reject a piece of software that would deny terrorists false identities?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the government is committed to protecting the integrity of the social insurance number program. I would note that the auditor general said that after our 1998 audit, the government took several measures to improve the management of the social insurance number program. We have increased the resources that are specifically dedicated to protecting the SIN from abuse and employees are trained to investigate and detect suspicious SIN applications.

[Carol Skelton, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Speaker, even though her department said the software is less expensive and intrusive than other proposed security solutions, her bureaucrats said about the company “they should be put off”.

The minister had the opportunity to end the flagrant abuse of social insurance numbers that the auditor general criticized in 1998. Why did the minister jeopardize the security of Canadians in this way?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I reject the accusations of the member.

I reiterate that the auditor general has said that we have taken appropriate action. The member would be interested to know of some of the other undertakings of the department. Ultraviolet lamps are used to detect false identification documents. Intervention measures to scrutinize SIN applications are used to prevent fraud. Over five million SINs have been flagged or cancelled to prevent fraud. Public awareness is part of this system.

The House can rest assured that we have a program in place to ensure the integrity of social insurance numbers.

National Defence

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, before Canada decides whether or not to take part militarily in Operation Infinite Justice, or in any other military operation, the House of Commons will have to successfully conclude “Operation True Democracy”.

In the name of democracy, will the government guarantee the House that a vote will be held in the House before any decision is taken as to whether or not to send soldiers into any sort of military operation?

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, the leader of the party knows perfectly well that, in any situation where troops have been deployed in the past, the House was consulted.

Furthermore, this time, even without any troop deployment, there has already been a day of consultation with the House on Monday. A request has been laid upon the table by an opposition party for a debate this evening, and I can assure the House that, should troop deployment be a possibility, there will of course be a debate in the House, as usual.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, at the start of the week, I congratulated the government on its attitude. However, there is one point on which we do not agree.

When the government tells us that there is consultation, that consultation took a different form in 1991 when it was in opposition and demanded a vote. There was a vote before Operation Desert Storm, at the request of the Liberal Party, which was then in opposition.

In the case of Kosovo, this same party, now in power, refused to hold a vote in the House.

This time, in the name of democracy, and in order to strengthen the Prime Minister's position in his discussions with his allies and with President Bush, I ask that a vote be held, as was done before the gulf war, at the request of this same party and this same leader.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, before this government came to power, no procedure even existed. It was this government which established a procedure for consulting the House. We were the ones who observed it each time and now we even want to amend the standing orders in order to improve them. In fact, this was the purpose of the debate which would normally have been held yesterday in the House.

National Security

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Prime Minister told the House that when there is a need for a meeting of his special national security committee, which has not met in over a year by the way, either he or the Deputy Prime Minister would preside over the meeting.

In April of this year the Summit of the Americas in Quebec had a significant impact on our national security. Would the solicitor general tell us why the Prime Minister or his deputy did not convene a meeting of his special national security committee?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I think it is obvious. With what happened in Quebec and how our security intelligence agency, the provincial and municipal police and the RCMP handled the situation is good evidence of how safe and secure this country is.

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Would everybody listen to the answers from this fellow? Mr. Speaker, I am talking about the national security committee, remember, the one that was established some time ago which has not met.

On September 11 terrorists attacked New York and Washington. Neither the Prime Minister nor the Deputy Prime Minister convened a meeting of the special national security committee. Yesterday the Prime Minister said, “When there is a need for this committee to meet, it will be done”.

I ask the solicitor general once again, what does it take to convene a meeting of the national security committee?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, the hon. member should know that during the crisis last week, we did not wonder about having meetings and procedures. We went into action. Lives had been lost. Air space had been violated. Terrorism was rampant. The Prime Minister worked with the line ministers and with the officials of the various departments to put in place very effective and immediate measures to deal with the crisis.

Zimbabwe

[Jean Augustine, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the tragic occurrence in the United States has seized us all and rightfully so. But two weeks ago, Canada participated in a meeting in Nigeria. The focus was on the situation in Zimbabwe. We were all concerned about commercial farming and its impact on the Zimbabwean people.

Could the Secretary of State for Latin America and Africa apprise us of the results of that meeting?

[David Kilgour, Liberal, Secretary of State (Latin America and Africa)]

Mr. Speaker, Canada took the strongest stand at that meeting, that the issue of land could not be separated from human rights, democratic principles and the rule of law. The government of Zimbabwe assured us that there would be no further occupations of land, that the rule of law would be respected and that violence and intimidation would cease.

We are monitoring very carefully what the government of Zimbabwe is doing to fulfill those pledges.

The Economy

[Lorne Nystrom, NDP, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

Last week's tragedy in the United States has thrown many of the economic assumptions of the government out the window.

President Bush has come out with a major package in the United States to stimulate the economy and to try to ease up on the coming recession in that country.

Has the Minister of Finance had a chance to consult with Canadian union and business leaders about the kind of emergency package we need to stimulate the economy, to save jobs and to deal with the crisis we are now facing, or do we have to wait until the budget which is expected next February?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member will know that a substantial portion of that package in the U.S. is for the reconstruction of downtown Manhattan and the Pentagon as a result of the terrible tragedy that occurred. That is where that money is going.

In terms of the date of the next budget, we have not foreclosed any options, but at the present time we are obviously waiting for a fair amount of substantial input, such as the cost of the tremendous fight against terrorism. It is going to be an international effort and there is a cost that is going to occur here. These are the priorities and they are all very important input to any budget.

Terrorism

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, last week's tragic events should serve as a warning about the lack of a national emergency plan in other areas of terrorist attacks, particularly bioterrorism. We know that reports from CSIS, Health Canada, and the Department of National Defence more recently show that Canada is just not ready to cope with such a threat. First responders, in particular, need the knowledge and skills to be able to respond effectively and efficiently to bioterrorist attacks.

What is the government doing to ensure that regional plans are developed across the country and that potential targets, such as the virology lab in Winnipeg, are not left vulnerable?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, as my hon. colleague is aware, we have a national counterterrorism plan and all these issues are being discussed. We are in discussion with our provincial colleagues in order to make sure that we have the proper mechanisms in place to address such difficulties across the country.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, Canada can no longer solely rely on our allies' intelligence to alert us of external threats. Former CSIS planning chief David Harris guaranteed that it was only a matter of time before terrorists would strike in Canada. Harris and others have been calling for a separate foreign intelligence agency. At home we know that CSIS has been decimated by Liberal cuts of $74 million.

Will the Prime Minister heed the words of his own Liberal defence committee chairman and commit to establishing a Canadian foreign intelligence agency? To not do so could be fatal.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague is no doubt well aware that CSIS does operate abroad. Anything that affects Canada's security, in the country or outside the country, is the responsibility of CSIS to investigate.

[Deborah Grey, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, they have virtually nothing to work with on that.

Yesterday the solicitor general told me, “There were no planned attacks on Canada”. He could hardly assure us of that.

Former CSIS director Ward Elcock warned that terrorist cells are active in Canada. Now Dave Harris, the former chief of strategic planning for CSIS, has issued a warning. He said: “As far as Canada is concerned, it is coming, it is guaranteed”.

Why is the government continuing to ignore the good advice of its own security professionals?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I will say that one thing the government does not want to do is create undue fear for Canadians. The fact is we have a very efficient security intelligence organization. We have one of the best, if not the best, police forces in the world. We live in one of the safest places in the world. It will continue to be that way.

Foreign Affairs

[Brian Pallister, Canadian Alliance, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Mr. Speaker, Canada's first line of defence against terrorism is our embassies abroad, but fraud and corruption are rampant in those embassies. There have been hundreds of known cases in the last three years. No wonder Canada has a growing reputation around the world as a bed and breakfast for terrorists.

What is the government doing to fortify the frontline against terrorism, to fortify our foreign embassies?