House of Commons Hansard #87 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was farmers.

Topics

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Dennis Mills Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member raises a good point—

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

An hon. member

Which requires a good answer.

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Dennis Mills Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

I might give him a good answer.

The Government of Canada has constitutional responsibility for water quality on all reserves across Canada. I recognize and respect that off reserve water quality is under the jurisdiction of the provinces. However international waters like the Great Lakes are ultimately the responsibility of the Government of Canada.

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

11:30 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rick Casson Canadian Alliance Lethbridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, it is good rise to add some comments to the debate because water is and will be a topic of serious discussion for a long time. I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca.

I spoke to the bill at second reading and I would like to add some comments to that, particularly with respect to the comments of the member on the government side who wanted a special committee with full committee status to look at this issue because it is so important. That is a good idea and certainly I would like to participate in such a committee.

As some other members have alluded to, the bill does not really address the entire issue of bulk water exports. All it does is deal with the International Boundary Waters Treaty Act, and that is between ourselves and the U.S.

My riding is unique in that the Oldman River, which flows through my riding, ends up in Hudson Bay and the Milk River ends up in the Gulf of Mexico. Talking about interbasin transfer and water that leaves our country and goes to another is pretty important to the area I live in, and has been even more so in the last couple of years because we are in a drought. We have seen very little precipitation during the spring and summer. The winter runoff coming out of the mountains is almost non-existent. If it does not snow this winter we are going to be faced with some very serious problems. Whether it is for agriculture or civic use in our communities the safety of water is of concern to Canadians. Canadians have become very concerned with what has happened in the last two years with the quality of water. This emphasizes the need to focus a discussion on water. The government should look at all aspects of it.

The act was created in 1909 so I guess it is about time it was dusted off and tuned up a little bit. It prohibits the removal of waters out of the water basin in which they are located. That stops interbasin transfer. It requires a licence from the Minister of Foreign Affairs for any activity in boundary or transboundary waters. If Canada were to do something on a river that flowed into the United States and back, it would need the blessing of the Minister of Foreign Affairs. It gives sanctions for penalties.

Addressing bulk water exports in the way the government has clearly lacks in scope. The government has used a three-pronged approach, one of which is the amendment of the International Boundary Waters Treaty Act. The second is a proposal to develop, in co-operation with the provinces, and the hon. member for Davenport alluded to this as voluntary, a Canada-wide accord to prohibit bulk water removal. The third aspect is that Canada and U.S. agree to a joint reference, the international joint commission, that would deal with the Great Lakes. That is a problem because the water in the Great Lakes is at an all-time low. It is a precious commodity to so many people in that area of Canada and the United States and it has to be handled properly.

Those are the three areas that have been put forward to address the issue of bulk water, and to me they do not. It gets back to NAFTA. The only thing that was put into NAFTA to deal with water was in 1993. Actually raw logs and unprocessed fish were exempted but water was not. All it says is that NAFTA creates no rights to the natural water resource of any party to the agreement. There has been a debate since that was created whether or not that protects our water. I have a tendency to say that it does not. If we sell bulk water to each other, i.e., B.C. could sell water to Alberta or vice versa, that makes bulk water a commodity and it allows the other signatories to the free trade agreement to have access to it and we would not be able to stop that.

The whole idea of the provinces being involved is that it is a natural resource and the provinces have control over natural resources. Thus, the provincial issue has been brought into it. We feel as a party that this resource falls under provincial rights and that it is shared, but the provinces have ultimate control. It is important that this aspect was brought forward.

Canadians have brought to our attention some of the issues they are concerned with. Canada has 9% of the world's renewable water, which is a huge amount. Protecting that and keeping sovereignty over it is paramount to Canadians. We have to have absolute control over our water. We cannot even consider any marketing or selling of it until we have that control.

Challenges have already been put forward by our neighbours to the south and deals have been made with some companies. There are Internet sites advertising Canadian water for sale. This cannot be allowed to proceed until we have clarified that as a country we can control the use of water because NAFTA does not put a complete and outright ban on bulk water exports.

What brings this to a head I suppose is the fact that we need stronger legislation. We need to reaffirm the power that the provinces have over this resource. We cannot use the three-pronged approach which the federal government has put forward as the means to put the minds of Canadians at ease. This is the means to keep our bulk water exports completely under the control of Canada. It does not do that. In order for this to be done we have to study the issue.

Water safety has been a topic of debate in Canada since the Walkerton and North Battleford incidents and there have been a few others. Every community is concerned. It has to be addressed along with the issue of exports.

Right now the lack of water in many parts of Canada has had a devastating effect on our agricultural community. Thanks to the member for Selkirk--Interlake we will have an opportunity this evening to debate the effects that the drought has had on the agricultural community and the income crisis it has created.

We see what is happening in the United States right now, the predicament that it is in and the support we are offering. If this were to happen in a different way and some major water supply were to be affected, what would we be able to do?

We have to be very careful because when our neighbours run out of water, and they will, how are we as a nation going to deal with that issue? There are places in the world right now where fresh water could be shipped by tanker. Here in North America it could be shipped by pipeline. It could be done in many ways. Until we have the absolute power to control that resource, we have to proceed with utmost caution, and rightfully so. Whether we sell it or not will be the ultimate debate, but we have to get the control first. When we do that, then we can proceed with the next step.

This bill is a small step. It is not the right thing to do at the moment. It needs to be broadly expanded, but because it is a small step in the right direction we will be supporting the bill.

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Brent St. Denis Liberal Algoma—Manitoulin, ON

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to my opposition colleague's remarks with respect to this very important legislation. My own riding of Algoma--Manitoulin is a Great Lakes riding and has a vast stretch of the north shore of Lake Huron and the eastern shore of Lake Superior.

Great Lakes issues are very important to my constituents. We have seen great drops in the water levels over the last couple of summers. People understand that on average the temperatures are higher and there is low precipitation and so on, but they worry that perhaps some large U.S. cities are diverting the water out of the system.

When I listened to my colleague's remarks, I wondered if he really made it clear enough what he would do if the government was not doing enough. I appreciate that he and his party will support the bill. If I heard him correctly he mentioned that the provinces should have ultimate jurisdiction. If that is the case, where does the federal government fit in?

I think the federal government, in co-operation with provincial and local governments, should have ultimate authority over international boundary waters. We should not necessarily leave it to the provinces to decide among themselves the resolution of international issues when it comes to such things.

I wonder if the hon. member could be more clear. In the big picture, where does he see the federal government fitting in?

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rick Casson Canadian Alliance Lethbridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, the federal government must be involved in any issue regarding a natural resource or whatever that deals with international law or commitments. Whether it be natural resources such as oil, gas, coal or forestry, the provinces presently have control over how those resources are managed and produced. In my mind, water has to be treated the same way. The provinces have to be full partners in this issue and will have the ultimate say on their internal water resources. We have water that flows into the ocean, into Hudson Bay and into the United States. They are all different and must be treated differently. The International Boundary Waters Treaty which this bill deals with is just part of that solution.

On the issue of the Great Lakes and the joint commission, one of the people who appeared before the foreign affairs committee said that states one or two tiers south of the Great Lakes are eyeing that water with much interest. The states and provinces in that area are very keen on keeping that water under control so that it is not completely drained off. Those lakes are not replenished at the same rate that the water is being extracted, especially in the dry times we have seen over the last number of years.

On the whole issue of bulk water, we can ship water and sell water in bottles and other containers, but even on the Great Lakes, things such as ballast water ships are looked at and considered. It has to be broadened. I am not saying that the provinces in the international boundary waters should have control because the federal government needs to be there. However, because water is a natural resource they have to be full partners in any discussion on the waters within their boundaries.

I do not know if that completely answers the member's question, but we do need co-operation with the provinces. We need to look at all environmental issues and accords. We have to bring everybody into this thing together because if we do not, just as we have seen in Newfoundland and B.C., there will be bulk water exports. We have to make sure that the provinces buy into whatever agreement the federal government comes up with, particularly having to do with international waters.

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

September 27th, 2001 / 11:40 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Keith Martin Canadian Alliance Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Lethbridge for kindly allowing me to share his time.

Bill C-6 is extraordinary in that it deals with a substance that we cannot live without. Millions of people live without love. We can live without food for a month, but we will die within a week if we do not have water. As an ancient poet said: “Water, water, everywhere, nor any drop to drink”. It is not quite that bad but we have some significant problems.

As my colleague and others have mentioned, the bill is very important in terms of securing our water resources. Canada has 9% of the world's freshwater. This is a significant issue from an international perspective and is one which I will address later in my speech.

The bill does a good job of guarding our water but much more needs to be done. Ninety-seven per cent of the water in the world is salt water, which is made up of 3% solids and 97% freshwater. Therefore, only 3% of all the water in the world right now, if we exclude salt water, is freshwater in various pockets and pools. Extraordinarily enough, the amount of water we have today is the same as we had at the beginning of time. It just changes and flows through the hydrological cycle throughout the world, which is quite fascinating. However, we are abusing it. With our burgeoning population, increasing demands and urbanization, we are putting extraordinary stresses on the world's water systems.

My colleagues mentioned the stresses on the Great Lakes system, such as acid rain, acidification of waters, the damming of waters, the changing of the hydrological cycle, the modifying of it, pollution, mercury and cadmium, the latter of which has caused significant health problems in a number of populations around the world, including Canada. In the St. Lawrence system, the content of carcinogenic and teratogenic substances in the meat of beluga whales is so high that a dead beluga whale would be considered toxic waste. That is the result of the elements and pollutants in the water.

Internationally, more than one billion people do not have access to safe drinking water. In North America we are prolific users of water. We use a lot of it, waste a lot of it and pollute a lot of it. Internationally the impact upon water has been significant. In the Dead Sea the water level has dropped by about 10 metres. In China more than 80% of the rivers do not support fish anymore. That is extraordinary and is a growing problem all over the world.

Pollution, desertification, the damming and wasting of our waters is having a significant effect. I had hoped that the bill would have had something to say about these important issues.

As I mentioned before, we are prolific users because we do not value water. The cost of water in North America is far less than its value. Some places in the United States have about $500 worth of subsidies per acre on some lands, which greatly exceeds the value of those lands. Some farmers pay about 3% of the value of the water they receive.

What can we do to preserve it? Domestically, we have to ensure that the cost reflects the value. Australia has done some very exciting work in terms of having a market oriented approach to water. This has greatly improved its ability to conserve water, reducing consumption by about 40% with no effect on the GDP.

We also have to conserve more. In Asia they are using pour toilets instead of flush toilets, saving between six and sixteen litres of water per flush. Australia and the Middle East specialize in new and better irrigation systems where they can use salt water for certain crops or use desalinization processes which are becoming more efficient.

Internationally, more than 300 river systems are transboundary. They will have a massive effect on the future as our population grows. We fear that countries will fight that over water. None of us can survive without water. Thomas Homer-Dixon, Robert Kaplan and many other authors have repeatedly and quite eloquently warned that in the future, water is what we will fight over.

When one looks at the Middle East as an example, people are fighting over land, land which is by and large desert. It is land where the aquifers are so low that in the future there will not be any water there at all. The wars which are taking place right now will wars over pieces of land which will be largely uninhabitable in the future, yet nobody really talks about that.

Internationally, we have to look at other countries such as India, Bangladesh, Sudan and Egypt and many other areas where water will be a potential area of conflict. Part of Canada's role in the future will be looking at ways to conserve and improve water not only at home, but also internationally by researching and developing new methods of water conservation, finding new ways to use salt water, such as desalinization procedures which would be more efficient, and finding ways to stop polluting our waters.

This has been a significant problem. We saw the tragedy in Walkerton. We have seen the effect of acid rain. We know that many of our lakes and rivers have been completely destroyed. The fish are toxic. As a country it behooves us to take responsibility for our water systems. What we do to our water systems not only affects us but affects people in other countries too. The House of Commons and the government has a responsibility to all Canadians to ensure that the very essence of life, which is water, will be preserved in some way.

Ways of doing that would be by decreasing demand, looking at new conservation tools and spreading them widely across the country, having new pricing mechanisms so that the value of water is truly reflected in its cost and making sure that existing conservation mechanisms are more efficient.

A lot of exciting work is being done all over the world demonstrating the ways we can preserve and conserve water. I hope the government works with its provincial counterparts to do that.

Speaking now on the international scene, there are a lot of water borne diseases. Malaria can be considered a water borne disease. Bilharzia, which is spread by snails and affects almost 200 million people, is expanding dramatically and is having a profound impact on people. This disease can kill. I remember treating a 20 year old woman in Africa who bled to death as a direct result of being infected by this parasite. Her veins in her esophagus burst and we could not stop the bleeding.

This is not an academic exercise at all. This issue affects people all over the world. In Canada we have seen the effect of the Walkerton tragedy and our inability to secure our water system. Canadians have a deep seated concern. There are boiled water warnings. I do not have the exact figures but they are quite significant. From Newfoundland to British Columbia, boiled water advisories are out because we have been unable to secure our water resources and ensure that safe, potable water is the right of all Canadians.

At the present time none of us see adequate leadership on this level. I hope the federal government will work with its provincial counterparts to develop a national strategy to secure our water resources. The bill is good in terms of ensuring that we will not damage our water resources or impede or damage the water resources that go to other countries. It is very important that we ensure that the water within our borders is secure. It is important that we ensure that Canadians have access to potable water so we do not have further tragedies such as Walkerton.

There are two basic elements in what we should do beyond this. There are domestic issues in terms of conservation, dealing with the pollution of our water systems and new irrigation methodologies which can be very efficient. Internationally, it is important that our Minster of Foreign Affairs work with other countries and point out that water is a potential flash point for conflicts in the future and things have to be done to ensure that this is dealt with.

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

11:50 a.m.

Halifax West Nova Scotia

Liberal

Geoff Regan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I enjoyed the member's comments because I have a very deep interest in the issue of water. I recognize that he has a great deal of knowledge and his background as a medical doctor would give him additional knowledge. I appreciated hearing that awful story from his time in Africa of the young woman who died because of parasites.

I would ask the member about the connection in his view between global warming and water. It strikes me that at a time when we have low water tables and have a lot of heat, dryness and lack of rain, we also have had high levels of problems, of boil orders, parasites and of various kinds of bacteria found in water throughout the continent. I think there is a very strong connection between the two that is obvious.

I am interested in hearing from the member what he feels are the things that can be done to combat global warming, thereby increasing our ability to have good water supplies. Scientists are telling us that when temperatures increase through global warming, there is as much water in the atmosphere but more of it evaporates. It is in the form of clouds or evaporated water. How does he feel we can combat those issues related to global warming, which affect our water supplies?

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Keith Martin Canadian Alliance Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his very impressive comments on global warming. If anybody in the House or in the world had a pat answer on how to deal with global warming, he or she would have a Nobel prize.

I am an expert in nothing so I cannot add anything beyond what is already out there on global warming, other than to say we have to deal with the facts on the issues of Kyoto and global warming.

There are a lot of misnomers about what is taking place. Regardless, there are things that we can do. There are some very good technologies on energy utilization, such as decreased use of fossil fuels and new non-fossil fuel alternatives, but they do not get the exposure they ought to.

If we put a fraction of the resources we put into subsidizing other elements of the energy section into developing new techniques and energy tools, we would have a much greater chance of dealing with the phenomenon of global warming.

In the end, one of my friends, who is an expert in this, said that it will probably require a multifactorial approach by the energy sector, diminished use of fossil fuels, probably greater use of nuclear energy in the end and other alternative sources of fuel. Some people think that solar power and wind power will be the panacea that will address all the problems, but they have a cost inherent in them too. They are not a magic bullet but need to be worked into the whole energy system and used more efficiently where appropriate. Then we will have a better system.

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Brent St. Denis Liberal Algoma—Manitoulin, ON

Mr. Speaker, notwithstanding my general preoccupation with Great Lakes water issues and the fact that my riding is a Great Lakes riding, one thing that often strikes me, as the member who just spoke mentioned, is that only 3% of the water in the world's oceans and seas is fresh water. With so much emphasis on high technology these days, it makes wonder why the world is not spending more money on desalinization research and technology.

As I seek it, bulk water export is only an issue between Canada and the U.S. In practical terms, I do not see any great danger or any prospect that we will be shipping boat loads of water around the world.

In his view, does desalinization have potential?

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

11:55 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Keith Martin Canadian Alliance Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, the member is absolutely right. I believe it does. The Middle East has done some very good work, not only with desalinization procedures but also on how to use salt water. It is interesting to note that we can use salt water to irrigate crops such as melons, corn and many others. We need to look at that.

One thing we cannot do is pump, at a great energy cost, water from a central region to a coast where there is salt water, which can be used for other things such as irrigation purposes. We could also use the irrigation we have in more efficient ways. There are micro methods of irrigation. There are more efficient uses of irrigation in California. Those technologies need to be spread to many other parts of the world.

There is an energy cost in desalinization of which we have to be cognizant. That cost has to be weighed against the benefits of desalinization.

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

Noon

Bloc

Jocelyne Girard-Bujold Bloc Jonquière, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to address Bill C-6, an act to amend the International Boundary Waters Treaty Act.

As we all know, water represents an inestimable resource for humans. We all agree that it is vital to life on Earth. However, contrary to what was long believed, it is not an inexhaustible resource.

This is why it is important to recognize that even if the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence River system accounts for one fifth of the world's fresh water resources, it is not unlimited. Moreover, in recent years, discoveries and research on greenhouse gases and on the potential risks of a rise in temperatures have increased our awareness of the fragility of our resources and of the threats to these resources.

Because of climatic risks, increased desertification worldwide, limited supplies of drinking water around the world and energy development based on this resource, the idea of exporting large quantities of water on tanker ships or of diverting rivers has emerged as a serious option in the past ten years or so in Quebec and Canada. To environmental threats to water supplies is added a new and significant threat of bulk water exports and large scale diversion of our lakes and rivers.

There is no doubt that bulk water exports offer significant economic possibilities. It is because of this potential that some provinces have examined the possibility of issuing permits to companies to allow them to consider bulk water exports.

In the early eighties, following a drought in California, British Columbia delivered such permits to five Canadian companies and one American one. However, over the years, the province changed its position and, concerned about the possible impact of such business on B.C.'s natural resources, it passed legislation to prohibit bulk water exports.

We know that the possibility of issuing similar permits was examined by other provinces. The case of Newfoundland recently made headlines. The province quickly gave up the idea, but the possibility remains. This, combined with the recent lawsuit by the California-based company Sun Belt Water against the Government of British Columbia, raises concerns and brings back the issue of trade risks associated with exporting this resource. In this context, the federal government has been promising to legislate for the past year

It is in this context that the Minister of the Environment introduced Bill C-15 in the last parliament. Bill C-6 is therefore an exact replica of it.

Permit me to provide a little background. On February 10, 1999, Canada and the United States gave the International Joint Commission, or IJC, the mandate to study the matter. After noting a growing number of proposals to export water from the Great Lakes and other areas of the United States and Canada, the two countries agreed to ask the commission to study the issue and make recommendations within the following year. A preliminary report was tabled on August 18, 2000, and the final report of the IJC was tabled on February 22, 2001.

In its preliminary report, the International Joint Commission recommended that, during the next six months it would need to complete its study, the federal, provincial and state governments prohibit bulk removal or sale of water. It emphasized a number of points worth mentioning here.

It indicated:

—there is never a surplus of water in the Great Lakes system, that bulk removals of water could reduce the resilience of the system, and that there is a lack of adequate information about withdrawals of groundwater

There is a problem here, because groundwater can have a major impact on the integrity and quality of ecosystems. The report also points out that it is impossible to forecast the demand for water. Moreover, the possibility of climate change and all sorts of natural factors make it impossible to evaluate with any degree of certainty the level and rate of flow of the Great Lakes over the next few years.

The final report includes these three conclusions:

The waters of the Great Lakes are a nonrenewable resource; on average less than 1% of the waters of the Great Lakes is renewed annually.

If all interests in the Basin are considered, there is never a surplus of water in the Great Lakes system. Every drop of water has several potential uses.

International trade law obligations—including the provisions of the Canada-United States Free Trade Agreement (FTA), the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), and World Trade Organization (WTO) agreements, including the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT)—do not prevent Canada and the United States from taking measures to protect their water resources and preserve the integrity of the Great Lakes Basin ecosystem.

Canada and the United States cannot be compelled by trade laws to endanger the waters of the Great Lakes ecosystem.

In early February, the federal Minister of the Environment proposed to his provincial and territorial counterparts a Canada-wide accord to prevent bulk water removal from watersheds.

The response of the provinces was rather lukewarm. Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba and Saskatchewan said they would indicate their positions later, while the government of Quebec dissociated itself, saying that it found the accord premature and felt that its Bill 73, an act to protect water resources, was sufficient. It said it would await the public hearings of the BAPE before defining its comprehensive water strategy.

We should note, however, that Quebec established a moratorium on the issue of new licenses to pump underground water.

Three major problems may be raised in connection with the bill before us today, namely, the definition of watershed, the extensive powers accorded the federal minister in connection with exceptions and with licensed activities and the usefulness of the bill we are looking at.

Because of these three, Bill C-6 goes beyond federal areas of jurisdiction and encroaches on provincial jurisdictions.

The fact that the concept of watershed is not defined in the bill is of obvious concern, but the fact that it is the governor in council who defines it by regulation and on the recommendation of the Minister of Foreign Affairs will not be readily supported. This concept is, clearly, very risky for the division of jurisdictions and for the ownership of natural resources, which is essentially provincial.

In a document dated February 10, 1999, the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade indicated clearly what constituted a watershed, and I quote:

—a land area draining into a common watercourse. Often called a catchment area, drainage basin or river basin.

Examples of watersheds in Canada include Atlantic (including the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence River), Hudson Bay, Pacific and Arctic. A single watershed can cover a relatively large section of the Canadian landscape. For example, the Great Lakes waters are not restricted to the lakes themselves but include the many rivers and their tributaries that ultimately flow into the Great Lakes.

Why not specify this in the bill? Why not specify what a watershed, or catchment basin, is? The definition given in the regulations has a strong likelihood of being the same as the one set out in February 1999, and thus will directly encroach, and with force of law, on provincial jurisdictions in this area.

This is very serious. The powers given to the Minister of Foreign Affairs are considerable. From granting permits to selecting the types of projects that may be eligible, and including practices that may be exempt from application of the law, the minister is, in our opinion, padding the responsibilities conferred upon him by the Constitution.

The amendments made to the International Boundary Waters Treaty Act might enable the Minister of Foreign Affairs to interfere in the management of Quebec's natural resources. Yet these provisions are clearly contrary to established law and the division of powers between the provincial and federal levels. Section 109 of the constitution awards incontestable property rights to the provinces. This, in conjunction with sections 92.5, 92.13 and 92A, elicited from Senator Gérald Beaudoin, in his work on the Canadian Constitution, the following comment in respect of the provinces, that they have:

broad powers relating to land development, acquisition and management, natural resource development and sales; what we are thinking of here specifically is the development of Quebec's hydro-electric resources... As well, according to the jurisprudence, the expression “lands” in section 92.5 also extends to waters and to mines.

Thus, these are flagrant encroachments into areas of provincial jurisdiction. As well, the pertinence of this bill bears questioning.

To protect water resources from the disastrous effects of unlimited trade, Canada, Mexico and the United States declared in 1993 that “the NAFTA creates no rights to the natural water resources of any party”. The federal government is therefore saying that, given the existence of this joint statement, as long as water is not considered a good or a product or is in its natural state, it does not come under the provisions of trade agreements, including NAFTA and WTO. But nothing could be less certain.

Such a statement, even if it is jointly issued, would not stand up under arbitration because, as provided for in the 1969 Vienna convention on the law of treaties, the context, factors outside the scope of an international treaty or convention, cannot be used to interpret it unless the text itself remains obscure and the parties agree on the relevance of the outside factors.

Since the United States made it very clear on the very day this joint statement was issued that nothing in it in any way changed NAFTA, it is therefore legitimate to say that water might become a good within the meaning of the various international trade agreements. In fact, from the moment that Canada exports this resource, it becomes a good within the meaning of NAFTA and GATT. Even if it were not legally considered a product, it could be the object of proceedings under chapter 11 of NAFTA on investments, services, and under the national treaty.

Furthermore, it is clear that if the federal government issues export licences, water will henceforth be considered a marketable commodity within the meaning of these trade agreements.

In short, the federal government boasts that its bill is consistent with its constitutional responsibilities and with Canada's international trade obligations. We do not agree. Contrary to what it says, the government, through Bill C-6, is overstepping its constitutional jurisdiction with respect to boundary waters, is interfering in Quebec's jurisdiction with regard to drinking water, and is, in reality, offering no satisfactory guarantees as to the impact of this bill on international trade agreements.

Although the protection of water resources is vitally important, as it stands, Bill C-6 strikes us as risky and contrary to the way jurisdictions are divided between the federal and provincial governments. In fact, it has considerable potential of encroachment on provincial areas of jurisdiction, while not providing any additional protection against bulk water exports. The Bloc Quebecois is opposed to the principle underlying Bill-6.

Far from us the idea of questioning the need to protect Canada's water resources and to support bulk water exports. The IJC's preliminary report sounds, and rightly so, the alarm and it reminds those who are in favour of an aggressive marketing approach of the need to deal with these issues with greater insight, while also giving more importance to the protection of our ecosystems.

However, natural resource management is the provinces' responsibility. Through Bill C-6, the federal government is grabbing the power to eventually get involved in provincial jurisdictions. We are thinking here of the all important hydroelectricity sector.

It goes without saying that indepth studies on the development of our water supply are essential. Before considering marketing this resource, it is vital to fully understand the whole issue, so as to ensure that decisions take into account the well-being of Quebecers and of future generations.

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is the House ready for the question?

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Pursuant to Standing Order 76(8) the recorded division on the motion stands deferred until Monday, October 1, at the end of government orders.

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Catterall Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Further to discussions that have taken place among all parties, I think you would find unanimous consent that the recorded division of the motion be further deferred until Tuesday, October 2, at the end of government orders.

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is that agreed?