Debates of Jan. 31st, 2002

Privilege

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, this is an interesting and an important point having to do with a brand new procedure in the House. In order to bring as much clarity to the matter as possible, it is valuable, as the chair of the committee has indicated, for all of us to treat this matter in a serious and civil manner. I appreciate the tone of the discussion.

Referring specifically to the standing order that has been cited, if I could quote a few words:

If such a question remains unanswered at the expiration of the said period of forty-five days, the matter of the failure of the Ministry to respond shall be deemed referred to the appropriate Standing Committee. Within five sitting days of such a referral the Chair of the committee shall convene a meeting of the committee to consider the matter of the failure of the Ministry to respond.

The standing order does not prescribe how the committee will dispose of the matter. It simply requires that when that time clock goes by and 45 days have passed without the answer having been filed, then the matter goes to a committee within five days and the committee is to consider the matter.

That is not to say or to prejudge in any manner what that consideration will be. That is obviously up to the committee.

In this instance the chairman of the committee has informed us that the question turned out to be just one day late. I believe he said that by the time the committee met to consider the matter, the answer to the question had in fact been filed and that those were factors that members of the committee might take into account, in the words of the standing order, in giving consideration to the matter.

Accordingly, it would be a perfectly legitimate conclusion on your part, Mr. Speaker, that the committee has in this case done exactly what the standing order required it to do. It met within five days and it considered the matter. As a part of that consideration it took into account the fact that the answer to the question was only one day late and that the answer had been filed by the time the committee actually met, and that it could then move on with other business.

What this standing order does is to provide a very useful discipline in the rules about the prompt and timely answering of questions.

I close with the thought that it is important for all members of the ministry to remember that the 45 day rule is there. It is our obligation as ministers of the crown to do our very best to respond to members of parliament within that prescribed time.

[Chuck Cadman, Canadian Alliance, Surrey North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, the same argument as was raised by the hon. House leader came up this morning by some members of the committee, that it was only one day late.

This rule was brought in by the House to make the government answerable when it was late in answering questions. This was the first time it had come before the committee. The length or time or how late it was is irrelevant. The fact is it was one day late. That is the point I made today. If we let one day go, the next time it could be two, and then it could be a week. We have to get serious about this and send a message to the committee that we have to deal with these.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I want to thank the hon. member for Provencher for raising the issue today in the House and all hon. members who participated in this discussion. Having had the honour of presiding over the modernization committee, the subject matter is of great interest to me.

Before I go any further I want to caution members in the House that the Chair has not and will not interfere, that may not be the right word but I think members will get the gist of it, when we continue to refer to the committees being masters of their own destiny, that has served us well and will continue to. I mention that as a caution.

That being said, the hon. member for Provencher used the words that I should further inquire. The hon. member for Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough reminded us that this was the first time. The government House leader referred to this being a new procedure. Given all of those instances, I will take the matter under advisement, being that this is a new procedure and this is the first time we have come to face to face with it.

I am most grateful for the manner in which the discussion was conducted. I certainly welcomed the input of others: the hon. member for Fredericton who is the chair of the justice committee; the whip, the member for Yorkton--Melville; and of course, the hon. member for Surrey North.

Please leave this important matter with the Chair. The Chair will get back to the House on this most important subject.

The House resumed consideration of the motion in relation to the amendment made by the Senate to Bill C-7, an act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to amend and repeal other acts, and of the amendment.

Youth Criminal Justice Act

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—St. Clair, ON]

Mr. Speaker, when we were interrupted by question period, if I can refer back to it, I was commenting about the fact that the amendment has as its source an amendment that came out of the Senate. We have already had discussions today about an elected Senate and the role it could play in the democratic process. Our party is clear on the subject. We do not support the existing Senate nor are we supporters of an elected Senate.

More pertinent to the debate today is that a body that is appointed, unelected and unrepresentative of the country is sending us back an amendment that we as a party support because of its content. It is relevant to the debate because it speaks to the holes in the legislation, not just in this section but in a number of areas.

The bill fails to address in a meaningful and systemic way the root causes of crime, things like poverty, poor health, and of course discrimination which the amendment attempts to specifically address in at least in one aspect.

In terms of the issue of special consideration for aboriginal youth confronted with charges in the youth justice system, which is clearly what the amendment does, it is important to put it in the context of the reality of the aboriginal community in Canada.

Last fall at one of our retreats I had the opportunity to have a briefing from a first nations community based near Regina, Saskatchewan. Coming out of the briefing one of the facts that stuck with me was that the reserve's population was composed of individuals of whom a full 50% were age 15 or younger.

We have heard from some hon. members today about the rate of crime attributed to the aboriginal community and the high rate of incarceration among both youth and adults of aboriginal descent. The proposed amendment would in effect allow our judiciary when dealing with sentencing to take into account the circumstances people from these communities may be confronted with. This is in keeping with the history of jurisprudence in Canada. We can point to all sorts of instances where we have done it. We have done it in other cases as well, recognizing that from time to time in the historical context it is necessary to differentiate between people who are before the courts.

The fact that we have a youth justice bill is proof of this. We have had it for close to a hundred years as has every developed country around the globe, certainly all countries based on the English common law and parliamentary systems. The acts that preceded it spoke to the fact that we treat people differently.

There is no magic to doing this. The important point is to ask whether, if we are faced with a special context, it makes sense to deal with the people in that context differently. The answer to me seems obvious: Yes, it does.

In terms of the root causes of crime, confronted as we have been with some of the history the aboriginal community has gone through, a good deal of which we are responsible for, the positive response of taking that into account is extremely important.

As a party we will support the amendment. We invite government members to search their consciences and do the same.

[Leon Benoit, Canadian Alliance, Lakeland, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the member made some good points in his debate. I will ask him a couple of questions about whether in a practical sense the special treatment of aboriginals under the legislation would be a wise thing.

From 1993 to 1997 I represented the Vegreville constituency. There were no reserves in the constituency. The boundaries changed. In the Lakeland constituency I now have eight reserves, four Metis settlements and a large aboriginal population that does not live on reserves.

For that reason, during the first year and a half I represented the Lakeland constituency I carried out a task force along with aboriginal people which studied issues exactly like this. There was support from aboriginal people for sentencing circles, community sentencing and that kind of thing. They said it worked well. It does seem to make a lot of sense.

However great concern was expressed by aboriginal people that the most common victims of those who would be treated specially under the law would be aboriginal people, many of them children. Concern was expressed that because of the great numbers of aboriginal people who are incarcerated and go through the court system the courts may in some cases already treat aboriginal people less severely than they should. This is what was coming from the aboriginal people who came before the task force.

Does the member not feel it is a real and genuine concern that the plight of victims of crime, most commonly aboriginal children, might be made worse by such special treatment?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—St. Clair, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Lakeland for the question. I must admit I am interested in the evidence he took from witnesses who argue that aboriginal and first nations people are treated less severely by our courts, since all the demographic and factual evidence points strongly to the contrary. It was my experience when I practised criminal law that because other considerations were not taken into account the systemic effect on the overall criminal justice system was that first nations people were treated more severely and unfairly.

With regard to the second part of the question about the concerns of victims, the suggestion of sentencing circles to a great degree responds to that although there have been at least one or two cases in the country where women from the aboriginal and first nations community have expressed concern about how some sentencing circles have functioned.

Setting that aside and dealing specifically with victims who are children, the sentencing circle should be more than adequate to satisfy the concerns of people as to whether justice has been achieved within that system.

My next response pertains to reliance on the judiciary in general. The judiciary is appointed by government, whether provincial or federal. It is not perfect. However to a great extent we are attempting to educate judges to make them sensitive to the needs of victims for justice. As we continue in the system we should be able to respond to the kinds of concerns expressed by the witnesses my hon. friend heard.

[Jocelyne Girard-Bujold, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to commend the hon. member for Windsor—St. Clair for his clear understanding of the problem and his position on the way Quebec deals with its young offenders. It is refreshing to see today that it is not only the people of Quebec who are unanimous in saying that Quebec treats its young offenders in an exceptional way.

I would like to ask the hon. member for Windsor—St. Clair if he has gone to speak with the new Minister of Justice—who does not believe what Quebecers tell him—and to explain to him how things are done in Quebec and what exceptional expertise Quebec possesses in getting young offenders back into the community.

What they are trying to do with this bill is serious business. They are trying to coerce young people. Consideration must be given, as it is in Quebec, to the young people's backgrounds, the kind of community they have grown up in and how this has disadvantaged them and led them to carry out reprehensible acts.

With this new bill we have before us, Bill C-7, all of that expertise is being shunted aside, and coercion will be the rule of the day.

I would like to ask the hon. member for Windsor—St. Clair to go and talk to the Minister of Justice for Canada. Drawing on all the past experience he has brought with him to this House, he told us before oral question period just how important it would be for the Quebec model to be extended to all of Canada.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—St. Clair, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from the Bloc for her question.

I am not our party's critic in the area so I have not had the opportunity to speak to the new minister about my professional experiences in dealing with youth crime and young offenders. I cannot absolutely guarantee my colleague from the Bloc that I will do that. I do not want to infringe on the hon. member for Winnipeg--Transcona who is our critic in the area, but given the opportunity I would be more than happy to discuss it with him.

I will reiterate a couple of points I made before question period. When I was practising in the area and dealing with the problems of how to treat, care for and bring young offenders to justice, we did not have the facilities. We did not have the proper orientation either but we particularly did not have the services or facilities. We were constantly looking across the country. Almost inevitably when we found a service we needed implemented we could turn to Quebec and know it would be there. It almost always was.

I do not want to give the province all the necessary authority, but the fact is that this was the position it took almost all the time. This is a philosophy under which one does not use coercion and force.

Our philosophy is also that we do not use force. Let me put it in the positive. We recognize that there are other ways of dealing with youth crime and with the youth who are caught in that system. They used a philosophical approach that was significantly different and, quite frankly, that those of us who were working in the system were very envious of.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Before resuming debate, it is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for South Surrey--White Rock--Langley, Canada 3000.

[Gurmant Grewal, Canadian Alliance, Surrey Central, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is always a great pleasure to rise on behalf of the people of Surrey Central. Today I stand on their behalf to register my opposition regarding the Senate amendment to Bill C-7, an act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to amend and repeal other acts.

Before I begin let me say that today is an historic day in parliament. One of the very prominent, renowned and hardworking members of parliament has resigned and today is his last day. The member of parliament for Calgary Southwest made a wonderful speech. His contribution to the House is unwavering and unparalleled. He is a visionary thinker, reformer and analyst who is full of determination, perseverance and substance yet is still down to earth. I pay tribute today to the hon. member for Calgary Southwest. He certainly made Canada a better country. All of us have enjoyed working with him. He has had a significant effect on my life, which I would like to acknowledge here before I begin my remarks on the amendment to Bill C-7.

The Senate amendment I speak of seeks to create a race based sentencing system for young offenders, whereby consideration of the circumstances of native offenders would be elevated above those of young offenders from other groups in the population.

This is another example of the failure of the government's aboriginal and justice policies, especially with respect to native young offenders. We know that the criminal justice system in this country, particularly the Young Offenders Act, simply provides criminals with a slap on the wrist. There is no justice for the victims. This system is not a deterrent but rather a motivation to commit crime.

The justice minister took a long time before she acted on this file. There have been consultations time and time again. There have been promises and studies but little action from this government. That is simply not acceptable to Canada and Canadians. The former justice minister promised the House that she would act on this file. She always used the infamous phrase that she would act on the file in a “timely” fashion. It took over six years for this minister to act on the file. Finally today we are surrounded with this controversial amendment to Bill C-7, which will put race into the justice system.

Given the past Liberal mismanagement of aboriginal issues, this is certainly not a step forward for Canada's aboriginal people. A full generation of policies seeking to improve the condition of Canada's native population has failed to achieve any meaningful improvements in the quality of life indicators of native people.

It has been over 30 years since the Prime Minister was the Indian affairs minister. He failed native Canadians then and his government is failing them now. After three decades of failure, I would think that some political parties would reassess their approach toward our aboriginal communities, our first nations people of this country. However, Bill C-7 shows that 30 years of native suffering has not moved the government to act in a meaningful fashion. Instead, it has come back with this weak bill and the amendment from the Senate, which clearly shows that it is stuck in the same mindset that it was back in the 1960s and 1970s.

The world has moved on but the Liberals have failed to keep pace. They are still victims of the mistaken logic that says one can promote equality through policies that force unequal treatment on different groups of people based on their ethnicity, based on their race. All this does is single out ethnic groups, in this case natives, our first nations people, for reprisals from those who resent the special status afforded to these groups. It is an even worse idea to do this on the basis of ethnicity or race because of visible differences that make them easy targets for reprisals by misguided and violent minorities. The Senate amendments to this defective bill unwittingly promote legislative racism by singling out one group of people above others.

I will talk about the background of the bill. It is part of the government's long ignored promise, since 1993, to change the Young Offenders Act. Usually I would say better late than never, but even after a long delay the bill leaves much to be desired. Extensive cross-country hearings on the Young Offenders Act were held in 1996-97 and resulted in a report entitled “Renewing Youth Justice”. Despite the fact that the Liberals had expressed the need for an overhaul of the Young Offenders Act since 1993, the government took until 1999, a full six years, for the justice minister to introduce any legislation on the issue.

Between 1997 and 1999 the then Reform Party pleaded non-stop with the government to introduce legislation for the sake of Canadian youth, who are most often the victims of youth crime. As we know, the Liberal response came at the beginning of the second session of the 36th parliament when the justice minister introduced Bill C-3, but that bill was so gravely defective that over 250 amendments, over half of them proposed by the Liberal members, if we can imagine, because they knew the bill was defective, were proposed during the nearly 12 months the bill was before committee. Many of the amendments sought to correct drafting errors in the bill, which shows that the government rushed to table it in the first place. However, the government had previously indicated that it was not open to changing Bill C-3 in any way, shape or form so it ignored all 250 amendments that were proposed as well as extensive witness testimony, tabling the bill in the House unchanged. That was shameful.

Liberal politics ended up winning out over youth justice and the well-being of Canada's native people. Bill C-3 was allowed to die on the order paper when the election was called prematurely for November 2000.

Now the government has indicated it is willing to impose closure on debate rather than let parliament have its say. First it postponed the bill for political reasons and now it wants to limit debate on the issue. I am wholly opposed to this way of doing business, but this is somewhat typical of the government. It is not new. This is not about partisan terms like hard or soft justice systems. It is about making sure that this bill is an effective tool for justice, making it as fair a tool as possible, fair for the victims and fair and effective for the criminals in order to hold them accountable for the crimes they commit.

This is an important point since the justice minister responsible for this bill is now the Minister of Health. Canadians have already rejected a two-tier health system. Why are they being asked to accept a two-tier or multi-tier justice system? If she tolerates it in justice, what does this mean for health care? I do not like what this holds for the future of health care in Canada.

This approach should not surprise anyone since the government has already been willing to support ethnically based fisheries in this country, an ethnically based tax system, with the result that they do not pay tax, and there is discrimination in GST payments based on race. There is discrimination by this government based on race with regard to mining rights, multiculturalism and the ministry for aboriginals. Many other ministries and departments in the government work based on race. There is therefore more generous access by one group of people over others. That is not acceptable.

If we want equality in this country then we cannot treat people based on their ethnicity, nationality, background, race, language or other things. That is completely unacceptable. Equality means that the justice system, our law and order, in the country should be blindfolded. It should not be based on race or ethnicity or anything like that. As I have already said, this legislation perpetuates the dismal record of this and other governments in their treatment of Canada's aboriginal people.

The policies of this and previous governments in addressing the needs of native people, our first nations people, have failed miserably and utterly to improve the lot of aboriginal people. The government is now attempting to fix this by creating special sentencing provisions for a certain class of criminals, based exclusively on race. This does nothing to address the circumstances that contribute to crime or the basis of discrimination they suffer in the first place.

The solutions offered in the Senate amendments to Bill C-7 are the worst of all possible solutions. The provision for reduced sentencing guidelines not only hurts the justice system as a whole, it diminishes both the suffering of the victims of crime and the recognition they deserve. Why should an aboriginal victim see less punishment for his or her perpetrator than a non-native? Are they less deserving of justice? Of course not. No member in this House will accept that and Canadians certainly do not accept that. The proposed changes would provide race based criteria for judges to apply in sentencing aboriginal offenders. There is already enough discretion available through existing sentencing guidelines without specifying race in the justice system.

Canadian Alliance members vigorously oppose the creation of a special kind of criminal based solely on ethnicity or race. We stand for equality. We will accept nothing less than the equality of all Canadians before the law.

Race has no place in sentencing considerations for youth justice in our national institutions. As I have said, justice should be blind to a person's ethnic background. Justice should be and ought to be colour blind. To create different systems based solely on personal characteristics or background violates the fundamental Canadian belief in equality. In regard to health care, the Canada Health Act states that all Canadians have dignity regardless of income level or ethnicity or their standard of living. In education, a debate rages about the future of our public education system if private schools gain increased access to funding.

However in justice, one of the most basic and important policy areas of all, we are expected to disregard these principles of equality and opt for different systems for native and non-native young offenders. That is shameful. Justice should be doled out based on the severity of the crime and not on the ethnicity of the criminal or the victim. We do not support discrimination in health care. Why should we support it in the justice system or other departments of the government?

The government should bring forward meaningful change that would help enhance native opportunities instead of fostering racism. The weak and arrogant Liberal government must restore justice in the justice system and other government departments.

I hope that I have made it clear why I oppose the Senate amendments to Bill C-7. It is because they give special sentencing consideration to aboriginal young offenders above those given to any other young offenders belonging to any other population group. The use of race-specific wording in criminal law is not only harmful, it is dangerous as well.

The goal is to achieve equality for all people in this country. We cannot justify race-based sanctions under our criminal law. Can we expect tolerance and respect for all when some offenders are singled out for less serious sanctions than offenders of another ethnic group or population base?

The government is legislating tolerance and blocking any movement toward true acceptance of native groups by creating a two-tiered young offenders justice system based on race. If this is not racism, what would hon. members call it?

My amendments are not even needed since Bill C-7 already provides specific guidelines for judges to take account of every young offender's circumstances when handing out sentences.

We are proud of Canada's diversity and multiculturalism. We want to strengthen the multicultural fabric of this country. It is an asset, not a liability. We need an integration of different groups in this country.

We need to promote tolerance, which the Secretary of State for Multiculturalism and her department are doing, but acceptance as well. Tolerance means that I may not agree with some people, I may not like some people, but somehow I will tolerate them. When we talk about all Canadians being equal, tolerance is not enough. We must accept them as part of Canada's multicultural fabric.

I am opposed to the amendments because they allow for criminal law to create racial distinctions among different classes of offenders and that is not acceptable. In my humble opinion, and many Canadians agree with me, the government is going in the wrong direction. We are sending the wrong message to Canadians. I ask the government not to make these amendments to Bill C-7 based on race.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Madam Speaker, it is absurd and ridiculous that a member of that party would say that there are not enough good government programs and that is the reason why aboriginal people are in this situation. Time and time again the Alliance and its precursor party have criticized those programs, wanted to cut them and brought up the amount of money that was spent on them.

We talk about first nations people not being different. Does the member think that in the Whitehorse Hospital for instance there is a first nations health centre? Does the member think that because this is a different culture and a different way of healing that it should not be treated differently and that public funds should not be spent that way? More important, if Canada has failed the aboriginal people so badly, which leads to the higher levels of incarceration that we are trying to solve here, what then is the Alliance's prescription to solve those problems that the Government of Canada has failed so miserably to solve?

[Gurmant Grewal, Canadian Alliance, Surrey Central, BC]

Madam Speaker, we are not against helping the needy. The government should provide help based on need, not on anything else.

We are not proposing cuts to essential services that are provided to the needy aboriginal people who have been suffering under previous governments. Their unemployment rate is high. Their health care is low. They have been suffering in so many ways: drug and alcohol abuse is high, education standards and levels are low, the standard of living is low. They need help and we do not deny that.

Government departments are advocating that money be given to the leadership in those communities where corruption has been reported. The problem is with wasteful spending which promotes corruption in those communities. Taxpayers' dollars do not reach the needy people.

I will give members an example. Two years ago during the middle of winter a first nation lady came to my office. She told me that a window in her house was broken for a long time. She wanted to fix the window so that she could protect her family from the bitter cold and storms. She approached the leadership in her band but the money was not given to her. That is where the problem is. If there was no corruption and the rules were based on fairness and need, the money would have been given to her so that she could fix her window and protect her family from the cold winter season.

I have sat on the public accounts committee for quite some time. I have seen the auditor general time and again list the wastage and missed priorities in the Indian affairs department and in the treatment of aboriginal people. There have also been many problems reported by the auditor general on the health care front.

I am not against helping the needy. I am against enshrining in our law a criminal justice system based on race. That is wrong. I and my party are against that.

[Jocelyne Girard-Bujold, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Madam Speaker, I listened carefully to the hon. member for Surrey Centre, but I would have liked to know his position on the amendment moved by the Bloc Québécois with respect to the Senate amendment.

The amendment moved by the Bloc reads as follows:

That the motion be amended by deleting all the words after the word “That” and substituting the following: “the amendment made by the Senate to Bill C-7, An Act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to amend and repeal other acts, be not now read a second time and concurred in, since it does not in any way take into consideration the distinct character of Quebec and the Quebec model for implementation of the Young Offenders Act”.

Quebec relies on the Young Offenders Act to apply an individualized treatment approach based on the characteristics, family situation and needs of the youth. This act also takes into consideration the background of the youth, for example whether he has been subjected to physical or sexual abuse.

I would have liked to know my colleague's opinion on Quebec's approach. I hope he is aware of that approach, because it has been acknowledged and supported unanimously by those who work in the field of justice. Furthermore, the National Assembly unanimously passed a resolution opposing Bill C-7. Through this bill, Canada is saying to youth that coercion is what is needed to bring young offenders back onto the right track and that, therefore, 14 year olds will be incarcerated with adults.

I would like to hear what my colleague has to say about this.

[Gurmant Grewal, Canadian Alliance, Surrey Central, BC]

Madam Speaker, the Bloc Quebecois has a different agenda with respect to the criminal justice system pertaining to young offenders. I remember debating Bill C-3 and Bill C-7 in the House. There were a series of problems with those bills. The Bloc had a filibuster in committee at one time, so it has a different agenda.

The bottom line is we will not accept the amendments to Bill C-7 which will enshrine racism within the criminal justice system.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Madam Speaker, we are well aware of the views of our colleagues from the Canadian Alliance. Our colleague is right in saying that we have different agendas.

However, I would like to ask him if he agrees with the information published by Statistics Canada to the effect that, in general—and I will have the opportunity to come back to that later in my speech—we live in a society that is less and less violent and that the fact that young people are becoming increasingly violent is a myth.

Does he have statistics for the last five years, for example, since it takes at least five years to observe significant trends, showing that young people, let us say from 14 to 18 years of age, are becoming increasingly violent?

[Gurmant Grewal, Canadian Alliance, Surrey Central, BC]

Madam Speaker, the hon. member for Surrey North has spoken on this issue many times in the House along with other members. He has personal experience dealing with the Young Offenders Act.

I cannot give any data at the moment about the trend in criminal behaviour of young offenders. The Bloc Quebecois wants Bill C-7 to be squashed; we do not go that route. We believe that our youth are the future of the country. The youth criminal justice system has to be dealt with in a scientific, logical and analytical manner. We cannot punish people to the extent that we do not reform or rehabilitate them. It is a combination of so many things.

We need a youth criminal justice system in the country that will restore some deterrents for youth who commit any crime, rather than motivate them with a slap on the wrist when they do commit a crime.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Madam Speaker, we cannot discuss the issue of young offenders without paying tribute to the member for Berthier—Montcalm.

The member for Berthier—Montcalm is extremely bright. He attended law school here, at the University of Ottawa, in the early 1980s. He spent part of his life studying law. He practiced law not as a crown attorney but in a private firm.

I think he established some kind of precedent because, if one adds up all the speeches, all the hours and all the minutes he spent putting forward his ideas, one will see that he spent nearly 25 hours in committee trying to convince both government and opposition members that the Quebec model is the right one.

We are not here this afternoon to debate personality issues. That is not what we want to discuss. We want to discuss two opposing philosophies with regard to dealing with young offenders.

I will have an opportunity to come back to that later in the time I have left, but the fact remains—and I know that the member for Louis-Hébert will share my opinion on the substance of the matter, if not on my presentation of it—that Quebec has a model that has been in place now for a certain number of years. There may be disagreement on the merits of this model: some view it as being good, others see it as bad.

We, in the Bloc Québécois, in addition to a broad coalition of stakeholders that are not politically inclined, have given our support to the member for Berthier—Montcalm's campaign.

I would like to pay tribute to the member for Berthier—Montcalm who has been our critic on this issue and who has been our voice in this debate. As members, we have a case to argue in this debate. When we rise in the House, when were speak publicly beyond these walls, we do so with the conviction of the ideas that we defend.

On this issue, the Bloc Québécois has argued that our premise be accepted, which is that there are indeed consequences when a young person who is 12, 13 or 14 years old is judged by a criminal justice system designed for adults.

In no way did the member for Berthier—Montcalm infer that those who are found guilty of extortion or violent crime should not be punished. During the course of the debate, I heard this from many people. Of course, it would be very irresponsible to lead people to believe that people who have committed violent crimes, extremely serious crimes, should go unpunished. For example, over the holidays, we read in the papers and saw on television that young people were responsible for terrible physical attacks on seniors.

We believe that the analysis of the criminal justice system for adults cannot be based on the same premise. When a person is 23, 24 or 25 years old, they are in a completely different situation. They have made choices in life, they have a degree of maturity. Often, they have started a family, and they no longer live with their parents. The considerations are not at all the same.

But before developing this point, I would like to debunk the myth that young people are getting increasingly violent. Indeed, I would like to debunk the first myth, that we are living in an increasingly violent society in general.

These ways of analysing the phenomena must be based on a certain number of statistics. Otherwise, what we are obviously relying on is common sense, and common sense does not necessarily equate with reality. Sometimes, there have to be longitudinal studies, and people need to compile statistics so that we can form a picture.

Canada happens to have the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics. I know this centre well. For one year, on behalf of the Bloc Québécois, with the member for Longueuil and the member for Saint-Hubert, I chaired a working group on street prostitution, not the sort of prostitution one finds in hotels with escorts, which is more upscale. During that time, I met people who work at the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics. These people collect data, which they get from Statistics Canada's data banks.

On the strength of the statistics we receive, we can say that the number of youths charged has dropped. That was what I was driving at with my question earlier. One can rise in the House of Commons and start from the premise that we must get tougher with young offenders, and God knows it is never nice for a family to have a young offender.

Furthermore we could ask ourselves the question. Let us do that. There are 301 MPs. Perhaps some of us might have had the potential to become delinquents. I come from Hochelaga—Maisonneuve. I went to the public schools in my neighbourhood and hung around with young people—at the time, I too was part of this age group—who were incarcerated. Why do some people in life become delinquents, while others do not? It is an interesting question.

You yourself, Madam Speaker, could perhaps have been a delinquent and gone down paths that were not those your parents had in mind for you. But links have been established between delinquency and poverty, between delinquency and lack of self-esteem, between poverty and the lack of a place in society. When one is 12, 13 or 14 years old and one decides to step out of the legal framework in which one lives, it is often in very direct proportion to the absence of hope and a future that we see for ourselves. But that is another debate and I will not get into it.

I would like to recall, on the basis of statistics that are available from the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, that between 1991 and 1997—this is therefore quite recent, since it takes about five years for statistics to be included, and that also holds true for the 10 year statistics made in Canada—the indictment rate for youth dropped by 23%. Not only has it dropped by 23%, but we found that when young people are charged, it is often and significantly with offences that have nothing to do with homicides or offences against the person. Young people are often charged with property offences, shoplifting or breaking and entering. Of course, we can make a connection between these offences.

I would like to digress for a moment. Generally speaking, the types of crime that are on the rise are smuggling crimes. For example, nowadays in Canada, there is a major smuggling network as far as automobiles and auto parts, furs, jewels and, of course, drugs are concerned. This is nothing new. It has been that way for at least three decades.

It is therefore a myth to think that we are living in a society that is getting increasingly violent, and it certainly is a myth to think that we are living in a society where young people are increasingly violent and are charged more often.

I see here another interesting statistic to help us better understand the phenomenon.

In 1997, the national crime rate observed by the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police went down for the sixth consecutive year. I believe it is important not to lose track of this factual information. This obviously does not mean that everything is hunky dory.

Again, as the member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, I often get representations from groups arguing that there is still a problem with, for instance, street gangs. We have a problem in Montreal with street gangs. I am sure that my colleague, the hon. member for Rosemont—Petite-Patrie, shares my analysis of the situation.

There are young people who form gangs. I will give an example. In Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, two years ago in March, a new 14 screen movie theatre complex called Star Cité opened up on Viau Street near the Olympic stadium. I do not know if some of the members here happen to go to the movies on occasion. This theatre complex required a $25 million investment. For the most part, the money came from English Canada. This complex is a meeting point for gangs.

Let me clarify where it is located. It is near the Biodôme and the Viau metro station. The police is often called there because there is a group of young people, well known to the police, who, unfortunately, scare people, in particular those heading for the metro. However, this is an isolated case in my neighbourhood. Hochelaga—Maisonneuve cannot be depicted only in terms of juvenile delinquency, but the problem does exist.

Let us take note of the fact that this problem does exist. We must ask ourselves what kind of laws and measures are more likely to help us prevent these young people from heading down such a dangerous path.

Before getting into the substance of my remarks, I would like to make the connection with organized crime. Of course, when one talks about crime, there are different levels. Juvenile delinquency is not on the same level as large scale organized crime, such as the Hell's Angels are involved in.

Some members will tell me that sometimes there are people who move upwards. There is a hierarchy, and it may happen that a member of a street gang ends up in a position of major responsibility in criminal organizations. This is true, but it is still a rather rare occurrence.

I take this opportunity to pay tribute to a Quebec filmmaker who produced a film combining anthropological and sociological considerations. The film is entitled Hochelaga . I do not know if any members in the House have seen it. Hochelaga is the work of a Quebec filmmaker. The film was not shot in Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, but it had an anthropological perspective on organized crime.

This film shows that, when one joins a gang, there is a whole ritual. This is not insignificant. I use this term, but I am well aware that it has to be seriously qualified. There is a whole ritual concerning job opportunities, promotion, making one's place in such a group, as well as the idea of getting rich quickly. Youth who join gangs, particularly street gangs, and who are more interested in well known groups because of their connection to organized crime, do so with the intention of getting rich.

I arranged a viewing of this film with the manager of Star Cité, Stéphane St-Jean. This viewing was for people in youth centres—we all have them in our ridings--youth who live in the Auberge jeunesse du Carrefour—

[An hon. member]

The youth centre.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

The youth centre called Carrefour Jeunesse de Hochelaga--Maisonneuve, which was opened by René Lévesque in 1982. I arranged for this at Star Cité with the boxer and actor—

[An hon. member]

Mr. Clavet.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Clavet, right. I had forgotten his name. There was Mr. Clavet, and there were some actors who came to explain to youth why organized crime was not a solution.

I could have spoken for hours, but we are well aware that young people are interested in media, the cinema, for instance.

Some 300 young people were there. It was my responsibility, as a member of parliament, to explain to them why organized crime is not the way to go, that they should stay away from it.

This was in April last year. Maybe some got sentenced, and maybe some committed an offence. But is it not better to say that our society should rely on rehabilitation? Rehabilitation does not mean the young offender should not take responsibility.

If a 14 or 15 year old was charged with breaking and entering and stealing $300, for example, would the social consequences be the same if he had to go through a court of justice and the adult system, ending up with a criminal record and a prison sentence? This is not hypothetical.

The main issue with Bill C-7 is that, in specific situations, some 14, 15 or 16 year olds will end up in the adult court system. In adult courts, sentences are adult sentences. And these youngsters will end up in prison with adults. This is cause for concern.

In the House, our concerns have not be shared by many members. It could be said, perhaps, that the hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm has a one track mind, that he is stubborn or that he has a kind of obsession. But this is not the case. The hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm is not that kind of guy. Those who got to know him well enough find he is a rather nice chap.

The hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm is not alone in this fight. If I were to give the list of all the groups, besides his own caucus, who have supported him, members would realize that he has had a great deal of support.

Here are a few names: the Commission des services juridiques, the Conseil permanent de la jeunesse. The Conseil permanent de la jeunesse is a public organization created during the International Youth Year, in 1985, if I am not mistaken. I myself was a member of the Comité national des jeunes. For that matter, I already had a working relationship with the hon. member for Jonquière. As members will know, Mr. René Lévesque did not believe very much in having youth organizations inside the Parti Quebecois, and it is Marcel Léger who in fact convinced him of the necessity of having real youth organizations inside the party.

Now, all political parties, Liberals, Conservatives and the Canadian Alliance alike, have youth organizations. Believe it or not, in 1984-85, I was part of the Comité national des jeunes. This committee was maintained under all governments, by Robert Bourassa as well as Daniel Johnson. It was a non-partisan group. Its members represent all segments of society.

There are children whose parents are workers, scholars, professionals, people engaged in non professional studies. It is a non-partisan organization. The Conseil permanent de la jeunesse, which is an authorized youth representative, gave its support to the hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm in his fight.

There is also the Centrale de l'enseignement du Québec, which is now called the CSQ. These professionals work with young people every day and they are well acquainted with the issue of juvenile delinquency.

The list is quite long. There are about 30 organizations representing thousands and thousands of young people throughout Quebec. In short, the best thing the government could do for the House—and I implore the hon. member for Louis-Hébert, the hon. member for Chicoutimi, the hon. member for the area of Valleyfield and the hon. member for Saint-Lambert to lobby their own government—is withdraw the bill and go back to square one.

Business of the House

[Jacques Saada, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Discussions have taken place between all parties as well as with the member for Charleswood St. James—Assiniboia, concerning the taking of the division on Bill S-7, scheduled at the conclusion of private members' business later this day.

I believe that you will find unanimous consent of the House for the following:

That at the conclusion of today's debate on S-7, if a recorded division is requested on the motion for second reading of the said bill, that it be deferred to Tuesday, February 5, 2002, at the end of government orders.

(Motion agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of the motion in relation to the amendment made by the Senate to Bill C-7, an act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to amend and repeal other acts, and of the amendment.

Youth Criminal Justice Act

[Ken Epp, Canadian Alliance, Elk Island, AB]

Madam Speaker, again I thank the interpreters without whose intervention I would not have been able to understand a single word the hon. member said. I thank them for accurately transmitting the information.

I listened to the entire speech with considerable interest. One thing occurred to me, and I will speak specifically to the subamendment of the Bloc. Its subamendment would crater the bill. Members of the Bloc want it not to be read now because in their words it does not take into account the fact that Quebec is a distinct society. Those are not the exact words but they indicate that it does not recognize the uniqueness of Quebec.

This is what went through my mind while he was speaking. To take a woman against her will and to force oneself on her is called rape. It is wrong in Vancouver, Calgary, Regina, Toronto, Montreal, I would think, and Halifax. It should be punished. To go into a person's home to rob and maybe trash and vandalize the place is wrong in Vancouver, Calgary, Regina, Saskatoon and so on. It has to be wrong in every town and village in Quebec.

I could go on and on with these different offences. Surely they are wrong. When young people do such things we need to correct them and get them off that. Sometimes the young people do not have a built-in sense of morality which prevents them from doing so. Therefore the purpose of the law is to restrain such people so that they will not do so.

Would the member be very explicit in telling the House how specifically is the need for the justice system different in Quebec from other areas of the country?