Debates of Jan. 31st, 2002

Committees of the House

[An hon. member]

For those who are the most fortunate.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Many people with higher incomes received significant tax breaks, yet they never contributed to EI. Others, who earned less, did not get such generous tax breaks. Often, they do not make enough to pay taxes.

Their contribution to the fight against the deficit should be a better employment insurance program, and that is why this report must be concurred in.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to what the member had to say. I was a member of the standing committee on human resources development when this report was passed. As he said, it was a unanimous report.

I noticed that he mentioned the surplus. So did my colleague from the NDP. He also mentioned a figure, a 15% increase, I think, in demand for employment insurance and I think he said that was in the region of Quebec alone in recent times.

My question is a factual one. I was very supportive of the extension of parental leave to 12 months. It was a very important and appropriate step for Canada at this time. I wondered if the 15% increase he mentioned included the increase in expenditures because of the much greater parental leave or whether the 15% simply represents more people who are on EI.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased with the member's speech, because he is one of those who signed the report. I hope that, when my time is up, he will have the opportunity to rise so that the debate can continue. I also hope that we will not find that the government whip or a government member wants the debate to stop there and have the House revert to the orders of the day. I encourage him to make this point.

I would also like to add that the 15% increase that has been recorded does not come from the increase in maternal leave. In our province, we have not noted a sudden increase in the birth rate. Our problem comes from the softwood lumber crisis. We all agree that we must defeat the Americans in this regard.

However, we must stand by our workers, because there are companies that are losing money, and this is very serious. Furthermore, some workers are not earning as much as usual and they will be entitled to fewer weeks of benefits. Our society must stand by them and provide them with an adequate income during this period, which is not the case at present.

The government is asking everyone to stand up to the Americans, whose behaviour on this issue is unacceptable. But while the government is doing this, it should also tell them that when they lose their job, they will at least be entitled a decent income while they are unemployed.

Last fall, we made demands to that effect. We asked that the number of weeks of benefits be increased in the affected regions. This was dismissed out of hand by the Minister of Human Resources Development. At the same time, the Minister for International Trade is asking us to support his position and provincial governments are doing the same. The government should make a minimum contribution by guaranteeing an adequate income to these people.

The 15% increase in EI claims is due to the economic downturn, to the softwood lumber crisis and to the fact that tourism has greatly decreased. Moreover, the winter is very mild and this adds to all the other factors. In December, many people visited employment centres.

The minister knew since September 11 that there would be an impact. She knew for a long time that the softwood lumber crisis was about to resurface. Yet, she did not provide enough additional resources at the appropriate time to allow people to get their employment insurance cheque on time and cover their expenses. It was her responsibility to do so but, in this regard as in many others, she seems insensitive.

The minister's behaviour, including her response to our report and her not following up on the demands, of the unemployed shows that she is not capable of understanding reality, as it is experienced by the unemployed, and that, in the end, she is the puppet of the Minister of Finance who, in the meantime, is pocketing the money.

[Greg Thompson, Progressive Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Mr. Speaker, this debate is very timely, I appreciate it and I congratulate the member for bringing this before the House.

I am concerned about the double standard at HRDC. This does relate to the employment insurance program. I will try to point this out in as short a time as I can. I see a double standard in the way unemployed workers are treated compared to chief executive officers of the country.

I need only go back to a year or so ago when we had the billion dollar debacle at HRDC. We remember that missing billion dollars that the minister could not account for. We can argue on what the real number was, but the fact of the matter is that not one chief executive officer from any company was ever brought before the minister or her tribunal to determine how those moneys were spent. Yet we see that meanspirited sort of interrogation used by the commission against workers who qualify for employment insurance benefits when it is determining whether or not workers are eligible.

In other words, officials are using heavy handed, almost brutal techniques against the unemployed of the country to basically deny them benefits. I want the member to comment on that. I know it is happening in New Brunswick. I am wondering whether or not it is happening in other parts of the country, specifically the province of Quebec.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as a matter of fact I believe that cases like the ones denounced by the hon. member can be found all over Canada. It is perhaps for that reason that members in committee unanimously supported important amendments to the report.

I believe that the time has come for concerned members of the Liberal majority to rise to express their opinion and tell the government that the position they took was a reasonable one and that they stand by it.

The hon. member for Shefford, the hon. member for Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Pabok, the hon. member for Madawaska—Restigouche, who is my neighbour in New Brunswick, and other members who sit on the committee and all those who represent areas having a high rate of unemployment or facing a recession are invited to rise. I invite hon. members to show courage so that we may continue the debate and adopt the report.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to congratulate my colleague for giving us all that information. I know that since 1993 he has defended workers and the unemployed. I believe it is honourable to have a man of his calibre in a party.

As we know, in his last budget the finance minister did not hesitate to once again dip into the EI fund surplus to finance all kinds of programs, including an infrastructure program. He did that despite reprimands from the general auditor and critics of the Bloc Québécois and other opposition parties. As we know, the surplus will reach $42.8 billion and the minister has no intention of turning it into an independent fund.

I would like to know what the hon. member thinks about what the finance minister did.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this question goes to the substance of the issue.

All the problems with the EI fund will disappear the day we have an independent fund under the control of employers and employees, those who contribute to the plan. We will have a future when all contributions are set according to the needs of the plan.

I see that many Liberal members want to take the floor. Now is the time to do so. I urge all Quebec members in the House to speak up, just as they did during the election campaign. I am thinking here of the immigration minister, and of a former minister, Mr. Gagliano, who is no longer here, and of all the other members. They asked for changes to the employment insurance plan. Even the Prime Minister mentioned these changes. They should have a bit of courage and ask the House to concur in this unanimous report.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I move:

That the House do now proceed to orders of the day.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Deputy Speaker]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Deputy Speaker]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Deputy Speaker]

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Deputy Speaker]

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

[The Deputy Speaker]

I declare the motion carried.

The House resumed from January 30 consideration of the motion that the amendment made by the Senate to Bill C-7, an act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to amend and repeal other Acts, be now read a second time and concurred in and of the amendment.

Points of Order

[The Deputy Speaker]

I am ready to rule on the point of order raised yesterday by the hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm seeking clarification about an alleged discrepancy between the English and the French versions of the Senate amendment to Bill C-7, the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

Specifically, the hon. member argued that the phrase “doivent faire l'objet d'un examen” in the French version was stronger than the phrase “should be considered” in the English version.

The hon. member raises a most interesting linguistic point, however it is not a point that the Chair is empowered to decide.

I verified the text of the amendment in both languages, as it appears in the Senate message printed in our Journals and I am satisfied that it is accurate. This is as far as the Chair’s responsibility goes in these matters.

I refer the hon. members to page 674 of Marleau and Montpetit:

It is not for the Speaker of the House of Commons to rule as to the procedural regularity of proceedings in the Senate and the amendments it makes to bills.

I thank the hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm for raising his concern.

The House resumed consideration of the amendment made by the Senate to Bill C-7, an act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to amend and repeal other acts.

Youth Criminal Justice Act

[Ted White, Canadian Alliance, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am rising today to intervene in terms of the Senate amendments to Bill C-7 presently before the House.

In his speech yesterday, the member for Provencher said that the new youth justice legislation contained little, if anything, that would address the ineffectiveness of the Young Offenders Act. In some ways it is indeed less desirable than the old act and is more cumbersome and more administratively complex.

The problems with the Young Offenders Act have been around since the days when I was still running as a candidate for nomination to this place. Before the 1990s the Canadian public was expressing dissatisfaction with the Young Offenders Act. Young people today still express dissatisfaction with the Young Offenders Act because they tend to be the victims of most youth crimes. There is still public pressure to get this fixed and yet the government brings us little tinkerings around the edges. The Senate amendment really complicates the situation by bringing in a race based element to the whole formula.

As was also mentioned by my colleague from Provencher yesterday, the second part of the amendment requires youth court judges to pay particular attention to the circumstances of aboriginal youth at the time of their sentencing. That is similar to subsection 718.2( e ) of the criminal code. Like my colleague, I cannot support legislation that is based on race. My colleague said that it was government sponsored racism, and I tend to agree with him.

We recently gave honours to Mr. Mandela for his work against apartheid in South Africa, and yet the government constantly introduces legislation in this place that is race based. An example that is worth mentioning is the employment equity bill that was brought in by this government in 1994. At the time that bill was brought into the House we warned this place that the race based provisions in that employment equity legislation would cause distortions and problems in the future. In fact the pigeons came home to roost.

I want to read into the record a statement I made in the House in the year 2000.

In 1995 the government passed its so-called employment equity bill which Reform MPs warned would result in employers being forced to unfairly discriminate against job applicants based entirely on their race. The chickens are coming home to roost. The Public Service Commission has admitted that it rejected a job application from one of my constituents because she was a white woman.

In addition to legislating exactly the type of discrimination it was supposed to prevent, the bill was badly flawed because compliance could only be accurately measured if minorities were willing to voluntarily self-identify. Therefore a department could be 100% composed of visible minorities but if the employees identified themselves as Canadian, the department would be registered as non-compliant and would have to hire more visible minorities.

The government should put a stop to this appalling program of state sponsored discrimination based on race yet it is continually popping up in government legislation.

There was a time when some members opposite claimed that we had racist tendencies. We have always fought against racism and have demanded that there be equality in legislation. We have the example again here where built into the amendment to Bill C-7 is special discrimination. This discrimination will not fix the underlying problems of youth crime. All it does is attempt to disguise the real problems.

I just mentioned the employment equity bill. I can give some examples of how that bill has distorted employment based on race. For example, in 2000 the Government of Canada placed some ads in newspapers across the country for job openings. A $45,900 per year job was advertised for an advisor on Canadian identity for Heritage Canada.

The advertisement was almost amusing in that it asked for an adviser on Canadian identity to be based in Montreal and was open only to persons identifying themselves as being members of a visible minority employment equity group.

Common sense makes one ask what qualifications someone identified as being a member of a visible minority employment equity group would have to make them authoritative in terms of Canadian heritage.

Another advertisement was for a regional director in the B.C. and Yukon region. Health Canada was offering from $74,300 to $87,400 for a person to manage a group of about 30 highly dedicated professional staff in the innovative delivery of the full range of branch programs and services in B.C. and Yukon. However the job was open only to applicants who were self-identified as a member of a visible minority group. This is another example of discrimination based upon race. If people did not fit a particular racial profile, they were not entitled to a government job. How is that different from anything happening in South Africa? It is government sponsored racism.

Another advertisement was for a service delivery representative. Under the heading “who can apply”, Human Resources Canada was offering a salary of $34,200 to persons who self-identified as visible minorities living or residing in the greater Vancouver regional district. The job involved handling EI applications over the telephone. The main qualification for handling EI applications over the telephone was to be able to say that one belonged to a particular racial group. This is appalling, disgusting behaviour by the government.

Another advertisement was for an income tax, excise tax auditor. It was open only to visible minority persons, aboriginal peoples and persons with disabilities working or residing in Nova Scotia and surrounding areas. This job was offering $38,900 with the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency. An interesting sentence appeared in a lengthy paragraph under the heading of “who can apply”. It read

Individuals who consider themselves to be a Member of the Visible Minority Persons of Canada, Aboriginal Peoples of Canada and Persons with Disabilities are invited to apply...

The interesting words in there are “consider themselves to be”. It illustrates a folly in the employment and equity legislation because it is illegal in Canada to ask people what their race is. Everything depends upon self-identification.

I know the government and the Senate are well-intentioned in bringing forward these types of provisions where they make special rules to apply to aboriginals or visible minorities, but it is not the way to fix the problem. The way to fix the problem is to apply equal rules to everyone. There is a difference between equal outcome and equal opportunity, and that is a key difference that the government is unwilling to recognize.

While we are talking about native issues, in my riding of North Vancouver there are two native reserves, the Squamish reserve and the Burrard reserve. Over my period as a MP, I have received numerous letters and petitions, and have had meetings in my office with people from those reserves demanding and pleading that I do something about the lack of democracy on the reserves and the way that people on reserves are treated by their own unelected, unaccountable chiefs.

All the government does is perpetuate the problems on those reserve with the types of legislation that it constantly passes in this place.

I am holding in my hand an article from the North Shore News with a picture of one of the band members from North Vancouver on the front page. The headline reads “Meeting leaves Band questions unanswered, upset Squamish seek information on Band spending”. The entire article deals with another problem of racial discrimination whereby the band leaders are not required to disclose the way they spend money from the taxpayers of Canada.

The taxpayers of Canada provide the reserve in North Vancouver with at least $20 million a year, yet we have no accountability for that spending either to the taxpayers of Canada or even to the band members themselves.

As long as we continue to pass in this place legislation which provides special rules based on race, there will be no equality and that is wrong. We must vote against the Senate amendment, if only for the reason that it provides special rules based on race.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would just like to pick up on a point from the speech of the member opposite. Currently aboriginal communities and reserves are not under the Access to Information Act. Has he any thoughts about whether it might be proper to bring reserve finances and aboriginal self-government community finances under the Access to Information Act, given that this ultimately is taxpayer money that is being spent?

[Ted White, Canadian Alliance, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it would be difficult for me to disagree with the suggestion that he has made. In fact, some members of the Squamish reserve made that same suggestion to me at least two years ago because they had been trying unsuccessfully for years to trace how the money was being spent on their reserve.

It appears that the reserve in total receives something like $35 million a year from its Park Royal investments, from other business investments and from taxpayer transfers. That $35 million virtually disappears, with an inability of individual band members to really track where it is going. They bring anecdotal evidence to me in my office of chiefs who get brand new cars every few years. Out of the 16 chiefs on reserve, at least 14 do not live on the reserve. They live in the upper middle class North Vancouver or West Vancouver area, in very classy homes, with brand new cars, while the majority of the people on the reserve live in appalling conditions.

The city of North Vancouver, which has an annual budget of about $35 million, has an excellent quality of life, high standard of living, paved streets and good services. In that community is this native reserve with 1,100 residents and it gets approximately the same amount of money for its administration, but they live in almost third world conditions.

We have to ask the question why can the people of North Vancouver, with $35 million, have a wonderful city with high prosperity, good education, wonderful services. However in the middle of Canada's fourth largest city is this reserve with the same amount of money, yet the streets are unpaved, houses are falling down, people are living in trailers and the illiteracy is appalling.

People come to my office from that reserve to meet with me because they cannot write a letter because they are illiterate. It shocks me how appalling the conditions are. Some responsibility has to be taken by the chiefs on those reserves.

I agree with the member. There has to be access to information so we can find out where that money goes and help better the conditions for the people there. A key to the whole issue is getting democracy on those reserves, something the chiefs are resisting. Until those chiefs are democratically elected and accountable to the band members, I do not think we will go very far.