Debates of Jan. 31st, 2002

Youth Criminal Justice Act

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for the question. I know he is always a faithful attendee of our debates and it is always a pleasure to exchange views with him.

I would invite him not to confuse two notions. There is a criminal code, which sets out offences based on behaviour, which is termed actus reus and on intent, which is termed mens rea .

We are not disputing the system of substantive offences. We are not saying that a person or a young person who has committed rape should not be sentenced. Where we have a particular model in Quebec is that we have the goal of rehabilitation and engage in a specific type of legal process. We are not saying that criminal law ought not to exist. We are saying that if a person has committed rape, to take our colleague's example, we must first of all seek to understand what has led him to do so.

Will incarcerating youngsters at a young age under a system similar to the adult system lead to their rehabilitation? We think that the answer is no and that the system must offer some kind of rehabilitation program with professionals, with people who will look beyond the offence that was committed to try to understand. Sometimes rehabilitation is possible, but sometimes it is not. When it is not possible, we understand that we must turn to a different system.

The Quebec model has proven its effectiveness. As statistics will show, the fact that we want a different system does not mean that young people are more violent in Quebec. This is what motivates the member for Berthier—Montcalm in his initiative, as well as the National Assembly.

I did not have time to talk about that because time does fly, but our colleague must know that the National Assembly, the only legislature representing a francophone majority in North America, passed a unanimous resolution on that issue. Both the Liberals led by Jean Charest and ADQ leader Mario Dumont asked the former Minister of Justice to withdraw her bill. It is not often that such a consensus can be seen within an assembly. It must mean that the Quebec model has some level of support among those who work with young people as well as those who speak on behalf of citizens as a whole, that is members of the National Assembly.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Madam Speaker, I know that my colleague understands very well the situation regarding this bill. I also know that it is a very interesting subject.

I am very encouraged to see the member, along with other members of his party, take up the fight for this issue. As he and his colleague, the representative on the justice committee, have stated quite eloquently and animatedly in the Chamber, the new bill poses a serious threat to the administration of justice not only in the province of Quebec but throughout the country.

The interesting point that has been made and was reiterated in his remarks was that the province of Quebec, through its innovative approach under the old Young Offenders Act, has arguably interpreted and administered justice to youth in that province in perhaps the most effective way we have seen throughout the country.

That demonstrates to me that there was sufficient flexibility within the old system, albeit I was one who was quite critical of the old Young Offenders Act. The new system would create numerous new levels, numerous procedures, and antiquated and complicated processes that will simply result in appeals, delay and, most important, would not bring young people to a sense of accountability and responsibility for their actions, which at its very base and fundamental level is what one would hope would be achieved in administering youth justice.

I have a question for the hon. member. Statements have been made and motions have been put forward. The suggestion has been put forward that the province of Quebec should be allowed to opt out of the administration of the new bill. It would remain under the sections of the old Young Offenders Act while the rest of the country would be going forward with the unfortunate provisions that will result if the new bill is adopted.

Would the member agree the preferred option would be that we simply remain as a country under the old system and learn from Quebec's leadership on this issue? Perhaps we could work in consultation with those in Quebec who have appropriately interpreted and used the provisions of the old Young Offenders Act in a much more effective method.

I certainly appreciate the reference to the former leader of the Progressive Conservative Party now working in Quebec for the benefit of Quebec youth. He has also taken a very strong stand in opposition to the new bill being forced down the throats of Quebecers and justice administrators across the country. There has been almost unanimous opposition to the bill for reasons of accountability, as I mentioned, but equally for reasons of cost of administration which will be exorbitant and not accounted for in the bill.

There is not sufficient funding to create these new programs or this new level of bureaucracy. This incredibly complex process will simply be unenforceable and impossible to set up. The new infrastructure that will be required is not accounted for in dollars in what is currently attached to the bill. Would my colleague address some of those points?

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Madam Speaker, I recognize my colleague's true feelings towards Quebec. What I am telling him is that the approach taken by the Bloc Québécois under the competent leadership of the member for Berthier--Montcalm could certainly be exported to all the other provinces.

We would be pleased to contribute to the expansion of a coalition. If people think that the Quebec model should prevail in the rest of Canada, we would certainly be happy and honoured to participate in the expansion of the Quebec intervention model. Of course we do not feel this willingness to let the provinces adopt the Quebec model. On the contrary, we are feeling the pressure of a steamroller bound to asphyxiate Quebec, and which, as we all know, is clearly ignoring the will expressed by the National Assembly.

But to answer my colleague's question, I would say yes, if it is what other provinces, other attorney generals and other youth workers want, to adopt the Quebec model, they can already count on the Bloc Quebecois to help expand the scope of this battle.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Madam Speaker, why does Quebec have 7% incarceration of less serious first offender youth which is generally considered by experts as too high?

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Madam Speaker, the member for Yukon is wrong. Our youth incarceration rate is lower than the national average.

I say it again. On the whole, we are living in a society where young people are less and less violent. It is the type of crimes that are changing. I think that this could be developed further later on.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

It being 5.30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper.

The House resumed from November 28, 2001 consideration of the motion that Bill S-7, an act to amend the Broadcasting Act, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Broadcasting Act

[Ken Epp, Canadian Alliance, Elk Island, AB]

Madam Speaker, with the ring of the bill so to speak, we transition from Bill C-7 to Bill S-7. Since seven is one of my favourite numbers, I guess I am fortunate to be able to speak today.

The bill produces a bit of a conundrum to us as individuals. We are aware of the fact that private members' business is always subject to free votes so my job in the next few minutes will be to persuade the majority of the members of the House to consider carefully their reaction to the bill.

As I understand it, the purpose of the bill, as originated by the Senate, is simply to allow the CRTC to provide reimbursement of expenses for people who intervene in a hearing before the commission. It is an interesting and defendable bill in the sense that it would equalize what is already in place in some instances.

As most members know, and I imagine many of the public knows, the CRTC is charged in Canada with regulating and managing both broadcasting functions and telecommunication functions. These are two rather diverse functions and involve everything from radio and television broadcasting, cable, satellites, cell phones and other telecommunication devices.

From time to time applications are made and rulings are contemplated by the commission. At that stage it is advantageous in our democratic process to have people come forward and present their arguments either in favour of the changes or against the changes or perhaps to bring forward proposed amendments.

In most instances this involves preparation. Sometimes it involves technical work. In all cases it involves some form of communication and meeting with the commission. There would be travel, hotel, food and other expenses involved in the actual presentation plus on occasion considerable costs incurred by experts helping to prepare the presentation. Sometimes it involves a little more in terms of getting the required technical information.

The bill before us is a very short bill. It states that the Broadcasting Act would be amended so that:

The Commission may award interim or final costs of and incidental to proceedings before it and may fix the amount of the costs or direct that the amount be taxed.

In other words, it can investigate to make sure that the costs submitted are fair before they are paid.

The second part of the bill states that:

The Commission may order by whom and to whom any costs are to be paid and by whom they are to be taxed, and may establish a scale for the taxation of costs.

There is also a clause included about establishing the criteria for the awarding of costs.That pretty well finishes the bill.

The bill was derived in the Senate. Some members in this place say that anything coming from the Senate should not be considered. I happen to disagree with that to a certain degree. The Senate is comprised of a number of members who work hard and consider things that are important for this country. They are honourable people and I do not think we should automatically discount them.

However it is regretful that the Prime Minister feels that only he has the capability of choosing them. It would be much better if Canadian citizens could send their representatives to the Senate. If that were the case, they would automatically receive a higher degree of esteem and respect because of the fact that they would be accountable to the people who elected them. Right now they seem to be accountable to only the Prime Minister.

This gives me my present dilemma. We have a Senate that is appointed, the majority by far by the Prime Minister. We have Liberals members here who will undoubtedly be encouraged to vote in favour of the bill, even though it is a private member's bill and normally would not be what we call a whipped vote. That congers of course all sorts of pictures, a bunch of people going ahead and being whipped by their whip to do as they are told and to go where they are told. I do not know whether that is the original meaning of that word, but it certainly means that there is a choice taken away.

I would encourage members to consider what they will do here. I know after this reading it will go again to the committee. Hopefully, there could be a delay from the time the committee gets the bill until it brings it back to the House. Only two things can happen. Either the bill should be passed or it should be defeated.

As I see it, there is no great objection to this. I believe our democratic process would be served by the passing of the bill. It is already true that for hearings that come to the CRTC, based on telecommunications issues, that costs are assessable, but not for broadcasting issues. For broadcasting issues, probably more individuals are directly involved and they would benefit from the ability to make a presentation to the commission. Democracy would be served by passing the bill.

Yet the dilemma that we face is that if we pass it and if the government gets it into its head to zing it through, then we have a situation which puts things out of order.

In my previous life, among other things, I taught programming. One thing I taught my students was that the order in which certain things were done was of critical importance. The order is wrong here because currently a committee of the House is studying the mandate of the CRTC. For us in the House to pass the bill prior to the completion of that study of that mandate would be inappropriate. We are doing things in the wrong order. It is like backing the tractor up to the trailer, then driving away and wondering why it is not following. We forgot to hook it up. This is the same type of situation. We could be running away ahead of the actual mandate of the CRTC as it turns out in effect after this study.

We know there are huge changes in our society right now. The Internet has greatly affected it. What is the role of the CRTC with respect to the Internet which is a huge issue in Canada and around the world? Those issues should be determined before we give the CRTC this privilege.

In essence and in principle, I have no great problem with this. However I would recommend members defeat the bill right now so that we do not get things out of order.

Barring that, I would appeal to members, especially those who serve on the committee, to ensure that their work is done in a timely, orderly fashion and that they delay the reporting of the bill back to the House until such time as the CRTC study has been completed.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Madam Speaker, we are debating Bill S-7. The bill would amend the Broadcasting Act in effect to level the playing field in the allocation of costs as between all interveners at hearings held by the CRTC under the Broadcasting Act.

It has been a number of years since the last amendments were made to the Broadcasting Act in the early 1990s. The reason for proposing this change to the Broadcasting Act is that it has become apparent over the years that the interveners appearing before the CRTC naturally have often been broadcasting companies, broadcasters and business operations in the field of broadcasting. Normally those players in the broadcasting field are reasonably provided with resourcing. They are large or medium size corporations where they have access to corporate counsel, outside consultants and any number of experts in the field who are skilled at making presentations in front of the CRTC.

The problem that develops is that individuals, average Canadians, who may wish to come forward on a public interest basis and make presentations before the CRTC just would not have that kind of resourcing. They may have a home computer to bang out a submission but they do not have the funds to retain one of these experts, a lawyer or a consultant.

Consequently from time to time it is reasonable to assume in that context that their submissions may not have as high a profile and do not come off quite as glamorously as the submissions by the larger corporations. As a result many believe it would be fairer if, in the process of these hearings, appropriate costs awards could be made by the CRTC that would assist the individuals who intervene on a public interest basis. They are Canadians and they want to be heard on the issue. Costs awards would allow them to make as good, or almost as good, presentations as the many professional groups that do participate in hearings.

The bill would require the payment of some moneys, but the average Canadian would view that as a pretty fair thing to do. The theme of this amendment to the Broadcasting Act is fairness and balance, not for the big players but for all of the interveners.

It is noteworthy that the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage is about to undertake a review of the Broadcasting Act. Some have pointed out that perhaps this is not the time to make this minor fix to the statute. I would differ with that. If there is a need for a change, if there is a piece of legislation that effects the change as this bill appears to do, we should go ahead and do it.

Objecting to amending the Broadcasting Act at this time is a little like saying that there is a flat tire on the truck but let us not fix it because we are going to redesign the truck; let us wait until we redesign the truck and we will fix the tire at the same time. Canadians realize that these hearings are going on all the time. I know that there are Canadians out there who do not have access to the kind of resourcing that makes for a better hearing.

I would be in favour of getting on with the bill and making this change to create the fairness and balance we all seek.

I know that the issue of costs has been addressed elsewhere. It is a good thing to do. It is timely. We should do it now.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Madam Speaker, I, too, am pleased to speak to Bill S-7. I will be quite brief in my remarks.

I realize it is a private member's bill but I think that members of our party and caucus will support Bill S-7. The bill amends the Broadcasting Act to permit the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, or the CRTC as it is better known, to make regulations to establish criteria for the awarding of costs to interveners in broadcasting proceedings as it currently has the power to award costs in telecommunications cases.

I acknowledge the work of former Senator Sheila Finestone and the hon. member for Charleswood St. James--Assiniboia for ensuring the bill is here.

The bill would change the Broadcasting Act so that the CRTC could award costs to third party interveners in broadcasting proceedings. That is of significance. The idea is not radical. It is done all the time in CRTC proceedings under the Telecommunications Act and the world has not ended for the telephone companies. Passing the bill would not be a significant threat to our private broadcasters.

The bill is about balance. The public hearing process currently used by the commission has been problematic in the past. The public interest has been lost in the process or at least partially lost in the process. Those with deeper pockets seem to get preferential access to the system, which makes it impossible for the public to have as much meaningful input as it should have.

For example, in television last year the CRTC awarded CanWest Global a seven year licence renewal and policy approval for cross-media ownership, even though the commission's own decision stated:

Global confirmed that CIII-TV, a station that serves an audience across Ontario, was broadcasting an average of 13 hours per week of regional news. This level is below the 17.5 hours per week of regional news to which the licensee committed for the current term of licence.

Was CanWest Global punished? No, it was rewarded. If one is Global, a big company, one can break the rules and get a seven year renewal.

Vision TV on the other hand recently applied for a similar seven year licence. I happen to know the CEO. Vision TV is a small, non-profit, multi-faith broadcaster. It does not have the hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on the process. It has no banks of lawyers and it has admitted that its record keeping could be better regarding Canadian content logs. While Global got what it desired, the CRTC came down very hard on Vision TV, granting it only a 33 month renewal with harsh restrictions.

Just on the convergence of media, perhaps Murdoch Davis at Southam News would be interested in that and would want to write a national editorial discussing that in a future publication.

Sections 56 and 57 of the Telecommunications Act have the power to compensate the organizations or individuals appearing before the commission during proceedings on telecommunications. The act also authorizes the CRTC to establish refund criteria and to determine to whom costs will be paid and by whom.

The Broadcasting Act does not have such provisions. Consequently, the CRTC has no power to award costs or establish the criteria for awards. This is an imbalance that causes concern and requires immediate rectification. That is why we are debating the bill today.

I looked at the list of consumer groups across Canada that strongly support this initiative. Among them are the British Columbia Public Interest Advocacy Centre; the Public Interest Law Centre; the National Anti-Poverty Organization; the Canadian Labour Congress; Action Réseau Consommateur; the Canadian Library Association; the Manitoba chapter of the Consumers' Association of Canada; Communication Workers Union; Rural Dignity of Canada; Association coopérative d'économie familiale; and the Public Interest Advocacy Centre.

This is a very good cross-section of interested groups in communities across the country. They support this. The New Democratic Party supports it. We know it is going to committee and we hope it will quickly pass into law.

[Aileen Carroll, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to join the debate on Bill S-7 which would amend the Broadcasting Act. It has been set up to allow the CRTC to set out regulations outlining standards for the awarding of costs. In particular it would enable the commission to award and tax costs among the interveners who appear before it.

Sections 56 and 57 of the current Telecommunications Act already authorize the CRTC to award various costs to organizations or individuals who take part in telecommunications proceedings. This unfortunately is not the case for Canadian interveners who wish to contribute to other democratic processes, namely broadcasting proceedings. I am convinced that it is about time the CRTC and the Canadian broadcasting system enjoyed the same prerogatives to guarantee access to all interveners who wish to take part in the process.

It is essential to remind the House that the bill's underlying principles of justice and balance of legislative powers for all Canadians are fully supported by the Department of Canadian Heritage. It is not a new issue. A number of public interest groups, such as the Consumers' Association of Canada and the Public Interest Advocacy Centre, have on many occasions raised the imbalance between the Broadcasting Act and the Telecommunications Act.

Harmonizing the two acts would not only allow Canadian consumers and interest groups to present relevant research and significant elements before the CRTC, but it would also give all Canadians the opportunity to be represented and heard by the commission when it makes broadcasting decisions that affect them directly.

It is important to draw the attention of the House to the impression concerned Canadians have of the current situation. They feel there is quite a striking contrast between the considerable financial resources of large media companies and the limited resources of individuals and of course public interest groups. Such a situation must not be tolerated in a democratic society.

It is completely logical to encourage Canadians to take part in CRTC decisions since the broadcasting system makes use of a public resource. Clearly neither the CRTC nor Canadians benefit from the inability of interveners to present well-documented briefs.

If adopted, Bill S-7 would allow individuals and public interest groups who are or could be directly impacted to apply for costs in order to help them participate in proceedings in a meaningful way. Unfortunately very often it is the matter of money that prevents Canadians from accessing such proceedings.

As we make the transition to an innovative economy and move from an industrial to a knowledge based economy, this is having an impact on Canadians' expectations of government and the role of government. In a democratic society it is only fitting that citizens are encouraged to reflect, to participate and to respond to decisions made by commissioners at the CRTC and the corporations who appear before it. After all, the broadcasting system makes use of a public resource and so it helps Canadians through its programs to connect with one another, to connect with their history and their country.

The reality of convergence comes up time and again in the communications industry. The convergence of technologies is a key dimension of the debate. More and more the regulatory issues and concerns with which the CRTC must grapple are falling under the Broadcasting Act and the Telecommunications Act and are affecting a wide section of Canadian society.

Involving citizens in decisions which affect them is a rational approach in an increasingly complex communications environment. As the commission wrestles with these matters, one way of forming its decisions is to help defray the costs of interveners who participate. Converging technologies are indeed blurring the lines between telecommunications and broadcasting which were once very separate and distinct. It is now time to standardize the rules for interveners and for the funding that governs those industries.

In the past, in cases where the CRTC conducted proceedings under the Telecommunications Act and the Broadcasting Act, such as the new media hearing, the CRTC awarded costs for interventions only to the extent that they touched upon telecommunications aspects.

As further technological interventions blur the lines, it will be more and more difficult to weigh the contribution of an intervention according to its impact on telecommunications versus broadcasting.

During the hearings of the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications, the CRTC itself spoke in favour of harmonizing these rules and indicated that it was indeed prepared to make the required changes through a public hearing.

Defining the criteria for such a system to award costs of broadcasting will not be easy for the CRTC as there are many differences between the proceedings of these two industries. Telecommunications proceedings focus essentially on issues involving rate structures while broadcasting proceedings usually deal with a wide variety of issues. The latter occur much more frequently and involve many more participants, for example, radio and TV stations, pay and specialized service, cable TV, satellite, wireless and networks. These proceedings also involve social as well as economic issues.

It is indeed very positive to hear the general support one hears on both sides of the House, and that must indicate very good legislation.

[Loyola Hearn, Progressive Conservative, St. John's West, NL]

Madam Speaker, I also stand to support the legislation, particularly because of its importance to the smaller, more rural regions of our country.

I was a bit shocked to listen to the member for Elk Island ask all of us to vote against the legislation because a review of the Broadcasting Act is presently underway and we would be infringing on the openness of presentations to the committee that will be holding the hearings.

However, I feel entirely different because the hearings on the Broadcasting Act are just commencing. The committee has not gone out from this area yet to hear any witnesses, although I understand some witnesses may have made presentations here in Ottawa. Over the next few weeks, months and years perhaps, the committee will move around the country to hear the views of people who are concerned with the Broadcasting Act. There are a lot of concerns about what is happening in relation to broadcasting in this country.

Many of the groups and individuals who would like to present to the committee as it goes forth will not be able to do so because of the costs involved. If we pass legislation now and the results are implemented, then perhaps the funding would be available to individuals or groups who want to make presentations next month, next year or whatever the case might be, depending upon the length of the hearings. I would think they the presentations will be extremely long and extensive because of the importance of the review itself. The act has not been reviewed for several years and we have had many changes in the broadcasting field.

If we were discussing the Telecommunications Act, the costs of making a presentation by anyone designated as an intervener are covered. However, because it is the Broadcasting Act, for some reason it is not looked upon as being important and those people wishing to intervene are left entirely on their own.

I would suggest that the Broadcasting Act perhaps has a lot more relevance in the rural, smaller areas of this country than it has in larger regions. Throughout the country we have a tremendous amount of people who get knowledge solely through one or two radio stations. I am thinking of CBC in particular.

If we look at what is happening to CBC, it is extremely scary. As an agency funded to be the national mosaic, to weld the fabric of the country together, to be the voice of and to the people, we have to say that it has failed miserably because its direction seems to concentrate on the larger areas and cut programming and opportunities from local areas. Certainly in our own province of Newfoundland, the contributions of CBC programming today compared to five or ten years ago are almost insignificant, to the point where the ratings for this publicly funded station have almost dropped off the board entirely.

Some might say that there is nothing wrong with that, that is what competition is all about and that the private sector should step in. I have no problem with that. However, it is very difficult to encourage or, in some cases, to even expect the private sector to deliver programming to small, rural regions where it is just too expensive to maintain proper operations. That is where the Canadian broadcasting system is supposed to step in.

As all of this is unfolding, more and more concerns are being raised across the country. The concentration of media in the hands of a few is becoming a major concern.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

A Liberal few.

[Loyola Hearn, Progressive Conservative, St. John's West, NL]

As my colleague mentions, a Liberal few is perhaps correct.

That is dangerous in more ways than one because public opinion is quite often affected by the media. If the media brings a certain message from a certain direction then, undoubtedly, if we only hear one side of the story we tend to believe it.

A lot of agencies would like to express concerns about what is happening in the broadcasting field and it is up to us to make sure they have that opportunity.

As we move forward to really do something with the Broadcasting Act, we need to establish the kind of Broadcasting Act that will be good for everyone in the country, regardless of where they live or their political affiliation, a broadcasting system that is fair, accurate and unbiased, and one that covers all regions of the country, that not only brings news to Canadians but brings news from them so that all of us know what is going on in the more remote regions. That is starting to disappear.

As we advance in technology it seems we regress in doing what technology should be able to do.

By passing the bill as quickly as possible we would have the opportunity to make sure that those who want to appear before the hearings on the Broadcasting Act have the opportunity to do so.

I encourage my colleagues in the House to make sure that we not only pass the bill but push for its implementation so that those who are scattered around the country have equal opportunity to express their views on what is happening to us in the country in relation to the broadcasting industry. The broadcasting industry, radio, TV or whatever, but particularly radio, has such an influence on the decision making powers of the country that we cannot let it be taken over by a small group of people who will manifest to the rest of us their views depending on political affiliation or who is funding them. Average Canadians should have every right to express their views and this is perhaps one opportunity to create a balanced playing field. I am all for it.

[Carmen Provenzano, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Madam Speaker, I am delighted to speak in support of Bill S-7. During the first debate on October 19 the House debated the wording of the bill which would amend the Broadcasting Act in order to allow the CRTC to award costs with respect to broadcasting proceedings. It is important at this stage to reiterate that the principles of fairness and balance which are the guiding objectives of Bill S-7 are firmly supported by all members of the House.

There are compelling reasons to harmonize the rules with respect to interveners appearing before the CRTC whether they pertain to broadcasting issues or telecommunications issues. It is equally important to level the playing field between interveners and broadcasting companies appearing before the CRTC. For these reasons Bill S-7 should be allowed to receive third reading and to proceed to committee.

Bill S-7, should it become law, would promise to offer interested Canadians more equal opportunities to engage and take part in the process of deciding the future direction of our broadcasting system as they do for our telecommunications system.

It is important to understand the context here. In order to assess the opportunity to amend the Broadcasting Act we must keep in mind the purpose of the proposed bill. Under the Telecommunications Act an intervener, a person, company or organization that wishes to address the commission in order to express their views in a telecommunications proceeding is eligible to receive an award of costs for the expenses related to the filing of the intervention.

An award of costs is usually paid by the regulated telecommunications companies as directed by the commission. The companies must pay these costs directly to the intervener. In the event that more than one telecommunications company is directed to pay, the commission determines each company's share usually based upon its operating revenues.

It should be noted that the majority of applications received for an award of costs come from consumers or other public interest groups such as the Consumers' Association of Canada and the Public Interest Advocacy Centre. The commission does not generally award costs to commercial entities or municipalities. It is interesting to note that very few individuals apply for an award of costs.

What is also interesting is that to receive an award of costs, an intervener must have an interest in the outcome of the proceeding and must also have contributed to a better understanding of the telecommunications issues by the commission. That leads me to believe that the proposed bill would actually level the playing field. It would amend the Broadcasting Act to give the commission, for its broadcasting proceedings, the same powers it now has under the Telecommunications Act when it conducts telecommunications proceedings.

Bill S-7 would give public interest groups or individuals that are or may be directly affected by a broadcasting proceeding the opportunity to apply for an award of costs to assist their participation in the commission's proceedings.

I will give an example. A party that has an interest in a broadcasting proceeding may find it difficult without legal or technical assistance to provide relative evidence pertaining to the proceeding. Bill S-7 would allow interveners who participate in broadcast proceedings to be eligible to receive an award of costs for the expenses related to their intervention as is the case now in telecommunications proceedings.

It is important for all Canadians to recognize that they deserve and can play a role in the way our broadcasting system is regulated. That is why the principle of Bill S-7 would provide for equitable financial support for interveners in both telecommunications and broadcasting proceedings.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

The question is on the motion for second reading of Bill S-7. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen: