Debates of Feb. 6th, 2002

Infrastructure Program

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Because the Canadian people trust the government, Mr. Speaker.

All Canadians know that we had a so-called Conservative administration before we formed the government that had a deficit of $42 billion. We have managed to have five balanced budgets over the last five years.

Foreign Affairs

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on January 29 the Prime Minister told the House that Canada had reached an agreement with the United States regarding the transfer and treatment of prisoners captured in Afghanistan that is based on compliance with the Geneva convention. However, if this agreement does exist, it is so vague that the Americans must now provide clarification.

Did the Prime Minister, as head of a government, not act imprudently by authorizing the transfer of prisoners without having first received firm assurances from the United States that the Geneva convention would be respected?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I have been in politics for many years and I know that Canada, the United States, Great Britain and all western countries have always respected the Geneva convention.

Therefore, it was not imprudent on the part of the government, in the context of our fight against terrorism, to side with a nation that was attacked and not become the defenders of terrorists, as the Bloc Quebecois has.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, at the beginning of the crisis I said that the Prime Minister was behaving like a statesman.

He is now his old self again. He is very petty. He has few arguments. He is behaving as he always has, like a small-minded person who is incapable of debating substantive issues.

If he did not have these assurances, and this must now be clarified—a legal expert said yesterday that Canada was violating the Geneva conventions—did the Prime Minister not fall short of his international obligations by not behaving like a head of state, but instead like a small-minded politician?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we are over there to protect those who support freedom and the respect of citizens.

At this point, we are targeting the terrorists who killed Canadians and Americans in Washington, especially in New York.

We are waging a war against terrorism, and in any such war, it is perfectly normal to have agreements between the troops regarding who will take charge of the prisoners. In this case, it was decided that it would be the Americans.

The agreement is respected not only by Canada, but by the other countries involved.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Prime Minister as well is trying to back Canada's actions in the treatment of the Afghan prisoners it handed over to the Americans by citing the absence of criticism from the Red Cross.

How can the Deputy Prime Minister say that Canada respected international conventions when the position of the International Red Cross is that those being held in Guantanamo should be granted the status of prisoners of war until a competent tribunal has decided otherwise?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Geneva convention provides that the country holding the prisoners must determine whether or not they are prisoners of war. That is what the Americans are now doing.

There was confusion last week when a statement was interpreted as meaning that they were not going to respect the Geneva convention.

But if the member reads the text of the statement made last week by Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, she will understand that the Americans have clearly decided to respect the Geneva convention. We are currently asking them to be even clearer.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this is amazing. It is the opposite of what the Deputy Prime Minister said yesterday in front of the cameras.

How can the Prime Minister and the Minister of National Defence reconcile the statement to the effect that there is no doubt about the status of the Afghan prisoners Canada handed over to the United States, when an official of the ICRC delegation in Washington has said that the status of a prisoner must be determined by a competent tribunal, which has obviously not happened in the United States so far?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, if I understand the Geneva convention correctly, it is the country responsible for the prisoners that must determine their status, whether or not they are prisoners of war.

Under the circumstances, the U.S. Army is responsible for the prisoners taken in Afghanistan during the operations which took place and in which Canadians participated. They are assuming their responsibilities under the Geneva convention by determining whether or not those captured are prisoners of war or common law prisoners.

Technology Partnerships Canada

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, under questioning yesterday about technology partnership loans, the industry minister insisted that these are not loans, they are investments. The minister can use whatever terminology he wants, but the TPC terms and conditions clearly state “the contribution will be repaid”. That is a loan.

The technology partnerships program has been in place for six years and $1.66 billion has been lent to corporations. I ask the minister, so far how much money has been repaid to the government?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, over the last six years these investments have enabled Canadian businesses to grow, Canadian entrepreneurs to create jobs and to create markets here and around the world. I referred earlier this week to the BlackBerry by Research in Motion which perhaps is the most obvious example of a Canadian success story enabled by Technology Partnerships Canada.

It takes between three and five years for these investments to produce returns. We have received over $20 million so far in royalties repaid to the government. We expect that all of these investments will be repaid to the Government of Canada.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, no wonder the minister does not want to answer the question. Hear this: Of the $1.66 billion lent over six years, less than $25 million has been repaid, less than 2%. Today across Canada students are demonstrating against rising tuition fees. Ninety per cent of these students repay their loans. If they do not, they are hounded to death. Compare that with corporations that have repaid less than 2% on technology partnerships loans.

Where is the government plan to get the money back, or does it just intend to let its corporate friends off the hook?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, one of the reasons the hon. member's party is so marginalized is its traditional failure generation after generation to understand the concept of investment and return in the free market in Canada.

We are going to get the money back by these companies and businesses succeeding. We have less than 1% project failure rate in Technology Partnerships Canada.

If the students the member is worried about want to have a job when they get out of school, want to have a future in a country with a prosperous economy, she should join with us in building that economy through these kinds of investments.

Foreign Affairs

[Chuck Strahl, Canadian Alliance, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the confusion over the handing over of prisoners continues. The International Committee of the Red Cross mandated by the Geneva conventions to protect POWs and other victims of war has said that the Guantanamo detainees are considered prisoners of war until proven otherwise by a competent court. Now the Deputy Prime Minister says that the murky U.S. detention process may not satisfy international law.

Are we not in danger of letting some terrorists off the hook by refusing to ensure that all detainees come before a competent tribunal for assessment?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Rumsfeld said clearly last week that they will respect the Geneva conventions. Of course there will be a determination done under the Geneva conventions to determine if they are prisoners of war or not. If they are not and if they are terrorists, they will be treated according to international law as criminals and not as prisoners of war. The determination has to be done by the people who have custody of the prisoners. In this case, they are the Americans.

[Chuck Strahl, Canadian Alliance, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, that might be a good after the fact assessment, but the truth is that right now, the way it is working out, every single person who goes to Guantanamo Bay is already an illegal combatant. There is no competent court of jurisdiction to determine that.

The Prime Minister told the House that he learned about JTF2 taking prisoners long after the fact. It is now also unclear how the status of prisoners will be determined with different ministers apparently shooting from the hip and simply hoping for the best.

It was announced last Thanksgiving that Canadian troops would join the international campaign against terrorism. Why did the government not work out details then so that we would know how all these prisoners would be treated today?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, it is easy to understand because there has been an understanding from many wars that the Americans and Canadians at all times respect the Geneva conventions.

Infrastructure Program

[Charlie Penson, Canadian Alliance, Peace River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it appears that the Liberal government has learned nothing from the HRDC scandal. The Liberals are back to their old tricks.

The government has backtracked on its promise for an independent foundation to distribute the $2 billion in infrastructure funding. Instead the whole process is going to become political with the Deputy Prime Minister and other local MPs of the Liberal Party pulling the purse strings.

Can the Deputy Prime Minister explain how this self-serving decision was made?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, that question was answered in an answer to the opposition leader.

The fact is that discussions were held on a national level with a number of potential participants. Discussions were held and a number of proposals were put forth by people, municipal governments and provincial governments. It became very clear that in both cases the complexity of those negotiations really meant there had to be government to government negotiations and therefore, an independent foundation could not function.

[Charlie Penson, Canadian Alliance, Peace River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we all remember the complexity of the David Dingwall highway diversion a few years ago on a similar project.

It seems to me the appeal of dangling taxpayers' money in front of constituents is just too much for the Liberal government to pass up. Canadians are tired of seeing their hard-earned tax dollars treated as if they were a Liberal Party political slush fund.

Can the Prime Minister tell us what safeguards will be put in place to ensure that this $2 billion fund will not be spent on questionable projects, rather than practical infrastructure that is needed in Canada?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I would agree that there is no problem.

The best thing is to make sure that the person responsible will be able to reply to all the questions by all members of parliament every day of the week in the House of Commons.

Foreign Affairs

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, there is total confusion at present as far as the Afghan prisoners are concerned.

Yesterday in this House, the Deputy Prime Minister said he even feared the United States might be in contravention of the Geneva conventions.

How, under the circumstances, can the Deputy Prime Minister say he wishes to continue transferring any future prisoners to the Americans, when he himself admits that he has doubts about their compliance with the Geneva convention.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, as I have just said, and have explained on a number of occasions, the statement made by the U.S. Secretary of Defence two weeks ago has led to some confusion.

Last week he clarified the statement by indicating that, in the past, now and in the future, they have respected and will continue to respect the Geneva convention. As well, we have asked the U.S. government to reaffirm the statement made last week by the Secretary of Defence.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this is a totally inconsistent situation, to put it mildly.

Canadian soldiers are ordered to treat the prisoners as prisoners of war, while making haste to hand them over to the Americans, who deny they have that status.

Is the Prime Minister, or the Deputy Prime MInister, not saying one thing and doing quite the opposite?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

No, Mr. Speaker.