House of Commons Hansard #170 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was military.

Topics

Contraventions ActPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Contraventions ActPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Contraventions ActPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Contraventions ActPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

All those opposed to the motion will please say nay.

Contraventions ActPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Contraventions ActPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Contraventions ActPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

An hon. member

Point of order.

Contraventions ActPrivate Members' Business

6:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Points of order will be taken after the vote is finished.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Contraventions ActPrivate Members' Business

6:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

I declare the motion carried.

(Order discharged, bill withdrawn and subject referred to a committee)

Contraventions ActPrivate Members' Business

6:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Order, please. The hon. member for St. Albert on a point of order.

Points of OrderPrivate Members' Business

April 17th, 2002 / 6:35 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Williams Canadian Alliance St. Albert, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to draw to your attention, and I am sure you noticed, that a large number of members walked out after the first vote. When the bells rang, we came in and voted on the amendment on Bill C-344. After that, you saw, and everybody else saw, a large number of members walking out of this place.

You had an obligation, Mr. Speaker, to ring the bells for half an hour and call the members in before you started to read the motion and to vote on the main motion of Bill C-344. Therefore, I would ask that you rule the last vote null and void and out of order.

Points of OrderPrivate Members' Business

6:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

I am sorry to inform my hon. colleague that his point of order is not in order. I will give him the reason. In the rule book the second paragraph of article 93 says:

Provided that, unless otherwise disposed of, at not later than fifteen minutes before the end of the time provided for the consideration of the said item, any proceedings then before the House shall be interrupted and every question necessary to dispose of the selected motion or of the selected bill at the second reading stage, shall be put forthwith and successively without further debate or amendment.

Points of OrderPrivate Members' Business

6:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Williams Canadian Alliance St. Albert, AB

Mr. Speaker, thank you very much for the ruling. I am not challenging the Chair's ruling but I think the Chair missed the point that we have a definite rule that the members shall be called to vote.

The bells rang and we came in and voted on the amendment to Bill C-344. As the Chair and everyone saw, a large number of members left the Chamber. Therefore the Chair had, in my opinion, an obligation to call in the members again and to allow the bells to ring for 30 minutes to summon them back. That did not happen, as the Chair knows.

The members who had left the Chamber did not have an opportunity to return because when they left the Chair had not risen to read the main motion. Therefore it can be said that they did not know a vote was to be held and the bells should have been rung for 30 minutes. Since they were not, the vote was out of order. The proceedings were not out of order but the vote was.

Points of OrderPrivate Members' Business

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jacques Saada Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Mr. Speaker, I refer here to today's planned order of business. At the bottom of the page is clearly indicated, and I quote, “Voting on the main motion—we voted on the amendment—immediately after the amendment is disposed of, pursuant to Standing Order 93”.

I really do not see what they are trying to do procedurally, except make a political statement which seems to me to be completely out of order.

Points of OrderPrivate Members' Business

6:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

To come back to the hon. member's point that some members had left the House, the table tells me there were two successive votes and that nothing in any rule book prevents any member from leaving the House in between the two votes.

Points of OrderPrivate Members' Business

6:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Williams Canadian Alliance St. Albert, AB

Mr. Speaker, with deference to the Chair, I still think the Chair is missing the point. Of course we can walk out. Of course we can sit in our chairs and not be recognized to vote, as perhaps some of us did in the vote. However that is not part of the issue.

The point is that the Chair knew a large number of members were not present. In order to allow us to exercise the democratic responsibility of voting in the Chamber the Speaker has an obligation to ring the bells for 30 minutes, or 15 minutes if it is a deferred vote.

The point is that the bells should have been rung. That is what I am trying to say. Because the bells did not ring and the members were not called into the Chamber the vote is out of order.

Points of OrderPrivate Members' Business

6:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

I am of the opinion that there was agreement among the House leaders that once a deferred recorded division is scheduled for a specific date and everyone knows in advance that there will be a vote on the amendment followed immediately by a vote on the main motion, there are no bells in between the vote on the amendment and the vote on the main motion.

Points of OrderPrivate Members' Business

6:45 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Williams Canadian Alliance St. Albert, AB

Mr. Speaker, I again apologize for my multiple interventions. We all know many things go on in the House on an informal basis but there are formal procedures and rules to ensure things are done properly, legally and judiciously. The issue here is that members be called for a vote.

The Chair knows a large number of members walked out of the House. They left in protest or for whatever reason. However because a large number had walked out they had to be summoned back because there was another vote that had not started. The motion had not been read. The Chair had not stood to read the motion. It had not been introduced for a vote, therefore the Chair had an obligation to call the members back in. The bells should have been rung, which did not happen. The members were not summoned back or given the opportunity to return to the Chamber.

Points of OrderPrivate Members' Business

6:50 p.m.

Halifax West Nova Scotia

Liberal

Geoff Regan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I rise on the same point of order. With all due respect to my hon. colleague, it is clear that once members of the House come here to vote they have an opportunity and the responsibility to stay and vote. Hon. members who decided to leave the House this evening in protest or for whatever reason had the opportunity to stay. They all knew there would be a vote after the first one. They decided not to be here for it. That was their choice. If they did not wish to stay for the vote it was their choice.

The hon. member suggests we have to sit here and waste the House's time by ringing the bells for half an hour for no reason other than some members want to play games. That is certainly not a valid objection.

Points of OrderPrivate Members' Business

6:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

I come back to my previous point for the hon. member for St. Albert. There were two successive votes that had to be taken immediately. If some members of his party decided to walk out, that was their decision. The House still had to proceed with the vote without bells because it was agreed to 10 days ago. Therefore that is it for this point of order.

PrivilegePrivate Members' Business

6:50 p.m.

Wascana Saskatchewan

Liberal

Ralph Goodale LiberalLeader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, in the last number of minutes the House has witnessed some rather extraordinary behaviour.

I am pleased the hon. member for St. Albert talked about behaviour that is proper, legal and judicious because earlier this evening we saw behaviour that was exactly the opposite. In an affront to the dignity of the House and an assault on its order and decorum a member of parliament from the opposition attempted to seize and remove the mace from the table. There could be no more serious affront to the dignity, decorum and order of the House than that.

I wish to put on record my strongest possible objection and indicate to the Chair that at the earliest opportunity at the next sitting of the House I will seek the opportunity to elaborate on this point from a legal point of view. I will put the argument before the House that this is a question of privilege that deserves to be dealt with, and I wanted to give notice at the earliest opportunity.

PrivilegePrivate Members' Business

6:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Notice has been given, and I am sure given the seriousness of the situation the Speaker himself will look into the matter and report to the House.

Is the hon. member for Ottawa West--Nepean rising on the same question of privilege? The hon. member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca has been patiently waiting to speak.

PrivilegePrivate Members' Business

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Catterall Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Mr. Speaker, I also rise on the question of privilege.

A question of privilege has been raised with regard to the most serious violation of decorum in the House that can occur, and I would ask that until the question of privilege is resolved the member responsible, the hon. member against whom the question of privilege has been raised, not be allowed to speak in the House.

PrivilegePrivate Members' Business

6:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

No at this point in time I do not agree with the government whip. The Speaker will have to pass judgment on the severity of what the hon. member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca has done in the House and he will bring in a ruling.

PrivilegePrivate Members' Business

6:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Keith Martin Canadian Alliance Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I apologize to you and the House for touching the mace, a symbol of democracy in the House. The government House leader mentioned the issue of proper, legal and judicious affronts to the House. There is only one greater affront: the violation of democracy that took place today with the government's motion.

However I apologize to the House for touching the mace. I did so in the heat of the moment and to try to make the point that democracy was violated, four years of work was destroyed and people's lives were at stake. I did it to make a point. I should not have done it and I apologize to the House.