Debates of April 29th, 2002

Terrorism

[Diane Ablonczy, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the fact is that last night on national television the former chief of strategic planning for CSIS said that if one were in the business of destroying the western world one could not have a better jumping off point than Canada.

He and other experts, including the former director of Canada's immigration system, told Canadians that we had no effective enforcement system to protect us from abusers. Experts who know the system best have been sounding the red alert.

Why has the government ignored those warnings?

[John Manley, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Infrastructure and Crown Corporations]

Mr. Speaker, we can count on the Alliance Party to hug those who are ready with their criticisms of Canada. People who have not worked for CSIS for a decade count on it.

We have in fact responded, not just on the basis of September 11.

[Dick Harris, Canadian Alliance, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

You're a disgrace.

[John Manley, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

The hon. member says that I am a disgrace. I will tell you something, Mr. Speaker, when we build a country like Canada we build it on the basis of principles and values that we share as a country. This country is based on those principles of democracy and openness. We will not shut it down just because somebody in the Alliance Party thinks we ought to live in a police state.

[Diane Ablonczy, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Prime Minister can huff and puff all he wants but the fact of the matter is that the former chief of strategic planning for CSIS, the former director of Canada's immigration system and the auditor general have all been saying that Canada's refugee system is a problem as far as security is concerned and it is rife with abuse.

The auditor general says that there is inadequate training for frontline officers and that airlines are not made to return passengers arriving with no documents. The government has ignored all these warnings--

[The Speaker]

The hon. Minister of Citizenship and Immigration.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, first, I would like to congratulate my colleague for her new appointment as the critic for immigration. I hope she sees that as a promotion and not as a demotion. However I would say that she needs more briefings.

When we consider every refugee or immigrant as a terrorist, it is not the case. Maybe now Le Pen has a franchise in Canada.

We have to be very careful of what is going on. We have made a lot of movement since September 11. We have put more money into resources. We are implementing a new system. This country was built on immigration.

Employment Insurance

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, after operating for 47 years, the Murdochville smelter will soon close its doors and 300 workers will lose their jobs. This is a difficult blow to the municipality, which has lost its only plant, but it does not have to be a fatal one if the federal government does its part quickly to ensure that Murdochville retains its specialized workforce, the key to an industrial recovery that will benefit the entire region of the Gaspé.

If the government is determined to keep Murdochville open, is it prepared to provide people with the financial means to stay, by not taxing their severance pay, as was done in 1985 in Gagnon?

[Claude Drouin, Liberal, Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec)]

Mr. Speaker, the Government of Canada has been working for a long time on development in the region. We have worked together with the Government of Quebec. We will continue to do so.

We have created a new region with the Gaspé. We have invested $35 million over five years under the federal support program for the Gaspé and Magdalen Islands economy.

Since its inception, 139 initiatives have been approved. This has generated $50 million, including $19 million from the Government of Canada. We will continue our presence.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I was in Murdochville this weekend. I put a specific question to the government regarding an agreement that was reached with Gagnon in 1985 to avoid taxing severance pay. People want to know more about this, including the mayor of Murdochville, the chamber of commerce and the union.

I would like it if there were co-operation. I do not want a squabble. People want to know if the government is prepared to enter into the same agreement that was reached with Gagnon in 1985. This is a very specific question. I am not interested in knowing everything the government intends to do, but can we get an answer to this question?

[Claude Drouin, Liberal, Secretary of State (Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec)]

Mr. Speaker, we will study the request if it is tabled. As we have always done, we want to co-operate and help the region, which is experiencing a difficult situation. We are always there and open to ideas based on the programs and opportunities that we have to assist the region. We want to co-operate.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

Mr. Speaker, workers in Murdochville will not receive their EI benefits until they have exhausted their severance pay.

Does the government not think that it is time to review the EI system and stop considering severance pay as regular pay for workers permanently laid off by a company that is shutting down?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to recognize and thank the member for Gaspé--Îles-de-la-Madeleine for working with us and making sure we clearly understand the impact this foundry closure will have on employees in Murdochville and the surrounding area.

I will continue to work with the member of parliament; with my colleague, the minister responsible for economic development in the province of Quebec; and with our provincial partners to make sure all government services are there, that workers have access to them and that those who are eligible have readily apparent connections with the programs that are important to them.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the government should consider EI insurance, because it is in fact insurance paid for by workers to cover job loss.

By requiring people who have been permanently laid off to have exhausted their severance pay before they are paid benefits, is the government not turning employment insurance into a social program of last resort?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the government knows and appreciates how significantly important employment insurance income support is for workers who find themselves in the position of being laid off. We have also recognized the importance of making changes to the employment insurance program, like repealing the intensity law.

I would again remind the House that it was the Bloc that voted against those changes that were made specifically in support of seasonal workers in this area and others.

National Defence

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Prime Minister or perhaps the Minister of Foreign Affairs and it has to do with the northern command and the need for the government to make its position clear with respect to this.

It is not enough for the House to simply know that discussions are going on. We need to know the principles those discussions are based on. If parliamentary process is to be observed, it is imperative for the government to make a statement as to what things it intends to protect in the course of embarking on this practical co-operation with the United States.

Will the government make that kind of statement here in the House so that we can know what the government thinks about this?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated previously, I think there is concern beyond reason in terms of what we are talking about. We are simply looking at the fact that the United States has created a new internal command, internal to its structure. We want to make sure that any relationship we have with the Americans is not prejudiced by it, for example, things such as NORAD. We have been assured of that. If there are any other ways we can work together in terms of practical co-operation, then we are also exploring those possibilities at the same time.

It is not something that deals with our sovereignty at all. It is not something that involves any deepening or integration of the relationship. It is just practical measures.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, if it is a concern beyond reason, then perhaps the Minister of National Defence should come before the House and make a statement as to why that is so instead of just asserting that it is so.

Clearly there are questions relating to sovereignty, to the ability to maintain an independent foreign policy, et cetera. These are all legitimate concerns. If the minister does not regard them as legitimate concerns, most Canadians do. All they want is an answer instead of being palmed off as if it is not an issue at all when it is.

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, I have made it quite clear that any of these discussions do not relate to the matter of sovereignty or to our foreign policy. We still have control over our foreign policy. We still have control over our troops. The hon. member should know that none of those are at stake.

Terrorism

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, last June CSIS warned the government that Canada was a potential venue for terrorist attacks, yet six days after September 11 the Prime Minister told parliament “I am not aware...of a cell...operating in Canada with the intention of carrying out terrorism...”.

CSIS has warned that there are some 50 terrorist groups active in Canada. The former CSIS director says that there is no doubt their targets include the United States.

Will the minister tell the House how many terrorist groups are operating in Canada today? How many terrorist groups has the government shut down since September 11?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, one would expect that a former prime minister would be fully aware that I will not disclose information of that nature. He should be fully aware of that. I do not get my information from former members of CSIS. I get my information from the director of CSIS.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, he gives none of it to the House or to the public.

On February 28 La Presse revealed that official Canadian immigration forms were being recycled to smuggle people into Canada illegally from Afghanistan and Pakistan. Some of these people were allowed entry into the United States because they were carrying illegal Canadian papers.

The Deputy Prime Minister said “I think we have a grasp on terrorism”. Does this grasp include shutting down human smuggling rings? Specifically, has the government stopped the ring of human smuggling from Afghanistan and Pakistan? How many other rings have been shut down since last September?

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, there were several television broadcasts. There was also one on CTV Newsnet, where Mike Duffy said that the Progressive Conservative Party had offered its research bureau to Sixty Minutes . If this is the kind of thing he is telling us with this sort of question, I can see where he is coming from.

He should be ashamed of it.

Second, we act and we react. After September 11 we added more resources. We have created the maple leaf card which is fraud resistant.

We have taken responsibility. The member should be more responsible than that.

[Stockwell Day, Canadian Alliance, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we have obtained the factum that was filed by present members of CSIS, not former, in the federal court case against a member of the terrorist group Hezbollah who was arrested here in Canada for his involvement in the 1996 bombing of the U.S. military barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. The factum states “Hezbollah has established an infrastructure in Canada that can assist and support terrorists seeking a safe haven in North America”.

With this and other pieces of evidence that we have provided for the minister, will he now do as he did with the Hamas terrorist group and slam the door on Hezbollah fundraising in Canada?

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, that is precisely why we shut down the military fundraising by Hezbollah in this country, because there was evidence that there was fundraising for improper purposes. We have shut that off.

I repeat what I have said in the House before. We will not shut down fundraising by legitimate organizations which are doing work that is helpful in the region. We are constantly willing, as I have told the member and all members of the House, to review our policies in light of all relevant circumstances. We will continue to do that.

We have shut down many terrorist organizations since September 11. The list is long. We will not hesitate in doing it. We have done it and we will continue to do so when appropriate for Canadian interests.