Debates of June 4th, 2002

Supply

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, under the sponsorship program that is correct. That position was taken by my predecessor.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Chairman, I want a clarification. Is that any contracts? Will the minister confirm that it will not receive any contracts of any kind while this investigation goes on?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, the suspension of activities specifically relates to the sponsorship program. As I understand it, the company has some other relationships with other government departments that do not appear to have problems or issues associated with the company. As far as the information that I have before me tonight, those other relationships are perfectly in order.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Chairman, I cannot believe what I just heard. The minister is saying that Groupaction is under criminal investigation for previous sponsorship contracts yet he refuses to say it should be barred from doing business with the government from this point forward until such time as that investigation is over. Is it the minister's position that he is willing to put millions more taxpayer dollars on the line while we wait for the RCMP to investigate? That is ridiculous. Is that the minister's position?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, there are certain principles of natural justice that might apply here. It is important to observe that while inquiries and investigations are being made, convictions have not been found.

I am perfectly happy to receive and consider other legal advice but--

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Chairman, the minister's advice is not legal advice.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, maybe the hon. gentleman would have the simple courtesy of waiting for the end of the answer.

I would simply say that I am happy to receive other legal views. If the hon. gentleman has specific allegations that he would like to advance, I would be glad to have them.

The concerns in the case immediately before us were identified by the auditor general. The auditor general made the specific references that she made, as was the exactly proper thing for her to do.

If other people have other information that should be drawn to my attention, I invite them to do so and I will take the appropriate action.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Chairman, the fact is the auditor general found that the practices surrounding Groupaction were appalling. She noted that the government could not locate one report. On the other hand, Groupaction apparently roughly photocopied one of the previous reports and billed the government half a million dollars for that report.

Is the minister saying that is an acceptable standard and because the company has not been proven to be that untrustworthy with some of the other business it is doing with the government, at least not that we have found yet, we should just completely overlook those low standards from Groupaction and allow it to continue to do business with the government with respect to advertising and some of the other areas? That is ridiculous. Does the government not have any quality standards at all?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, let me read the third paragraph in the report of the auditor general:

It must be noted that our conclusions about the management practices and actions related to these three contracts refer to those of public servants. The rules and regulations we refer to in this report are those that apply to public servants; they did not apply to the contractor. Consequently, our conclusions cannot and do not pertain to any practices that Groupaction followed.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Chairman, does the minister deny that those reports were substandard? In one case one of them was basically a photocopy of the other. Does he deny that? If he does not deny that, then how can he continue to argue that Groupaction should be defended and that Groupaction should continue to be a supplier for the federal government?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, where circumstances arise that raise questions with respect to the legal propriety of certain conduct, the appropriate authorities to pursue the investigation are the police authorities.

When issues came to the attention of the auditor general, she made her observations from an audit point of view, and she also took some other action which is to refer matters to the RCMP.

The RCMP are in the best position to determine what further action should be taken. They are the police. That is their job.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Chairman, that is an interesting dodge. I am asking about the quality of the report.

I remind the minister that Groupaction's international partner, J. Walter Thompson, has dropped it, probably in part because of the poor quality of its work. When a report is photocopied, clearly that is not value for money from the standpoint of the taxpayer.

If the government has accepted a report that is essentially a photocopy of another report, why would it have any confidence at all that the company is going to provide good quality service in any other area that the government does business with it?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, there are two things.

First of all, we have obviously not accepted the quality of that previous work. That is why the auditor general was invited to conduct an audit. That is why all of the subsequent steps have been taken. The government does not accept or condone work that is clearly substandard or deficient in the variety of ways that have been identified.

The other departments of government that have relationships with advertising agencies are undoubtedly making sure that the quality of work delivered to them is up to the standard they would expect and all within specification.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Chairman, first of all, the government did accept it. The government paid half a million dollars for the report, three times as a matter of fact.

My point is if a company does substandard work for the government, is it the position of the minister of public works that the government should continue to contract with the company? That is really the issue. Is that what the minister is saying?

He has said already that he thinks the report was substandard. On what grounds can a company be fired for providing contracts to the government if the company does substandard work and the government continues to do business with the company, especially when it is under criminal investigation and it has Liberal ties that call into question conflicts of interest?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, again the hon. gentleman seems to be ignoring the multi-layered approach that we are taking to deal with this problem. We have referred matters to the RCMP. The auditor general is conducting a government wide audit with respect to advertising and sponsorships. The President of the Treasury Board is reviewing the management framework and the government system with respect to advertising sponsorships and polling. My own department is conducting its own internal review. We are pursuing this issue on all fronts to make sure that no stone is left unturned.

Where there is conduct that does not live up to government standards, that conduct will be remedied. If it goes beyond simply mismanagement or mistakes, if it borders upon that which requires legal proceedings, then the appropriate references to the appropriate authorities will be taken. The proof of that is that we have already made those references.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Chairman, the minister has already stated that he thinks Groupaction should be allowed to continue doing business with other departments in the government despite the fact that it is under a criminal investigation and despite the fact that it produced a substandard report, in fact a report that effectively was a photocopy that the government paid half a million dollars for.

The point I want to make is that Groupaction has 10 or 12 employees and these employees produced a report that was effectively a photocopy. They will now be entering into contracts in other areas of the government producing advertising or other kinds of reports, who knows exactly what they will be doing, and the minister seems to be saying that just because they were guilty of very shoddy workmanship this one time does not really mean that we will disqualify them from other contracts with the government despite the fact, again, that they are under criminal investigation and they effectively cheated the government out of half a million dollars.

What standards do people have to meet in order to get a contract with the government? Are any standards okay? Do they have to produce any kind of value for money if they want to win a contract with the federal government?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, three specific contracts were found to be questionable. The auditor general was called in to examine those contracts. She provided an ample report on what she found deficient with respect to those matters and she indicated that two further follow up actions would be taken. First, she said that she would refer the matter to the RCMP, which she did and which was entirely proper and appropriate in the circumstances; and second, she indicated that she would conduct a government wide review with respect to advertising, polling and sponsorship. The activity is underway to ensure that the proper standards are adhered to.

In this particular case we know of three problem areas where the appropriate vigorous action has been taken. I want to assure the House and certainly assure this hon. member that if there is any evidence of a problem that exists elsewhere, the appropriate action will be taken promptly.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Madam Chairman, I will begin by congratulating the minister on his new portfolio which I believe he has been in for nine days. He has done a tremendous job over the last four and a half hours.

I have two questions for the minister. The first one will be pretty hard considering the short time he has been in the office but it relates to the rural lens. As people know, the Government of Canada has a process whereby all expenditures and new programs are looked at from the point of rural Canada. As my colleague, who spoke before me, talked about urban Canada, I wanted to make sure rural Canada received its fair time and attention tonight.

The rural lens looks at all the programs. I would like to know how the department has used it, if at all, or at least that the minister is committed to ensuring that his staff uses it when they do programs.

While he is thinking about that, my second question relates to an update on the Government of Canada website. This is a very wise expenditure in the estimates for my riding. It is an important expenditure and an important investment because in the more rural ridings, the farther one is from large cities the harder one has getting information on government programs. Sometimes a community is so small, like some of the communities in my riding, that they have never had a federal government office or even a large number of employees who could answer a lot of questions. This new technology is wonderful in that respect. People can now have access to all the government programs.

Just before the minister answers those two questions, I occasionally like to talk to the people who are watching out there. In my riding of Yukon, which is in the farthest part of western Canada, it is only 8.05 p.m., so lots of people and even children are watching. I would just remind them that the Government of Canada website has millions and millions of pages on every department, on all the programs and a lot of things for businesses all on the opening page. The address is www.canada.gc.ca. I will repeat that at the end of my remarks in case they are just logging on and do not have broadband yet, which is very important to rural Canada as well, so they can get on quickly. It also has a whole section about government on the right side of the page. It has all the processes on how government works.

For those children who may be out there watching and who need to do projects for school, if they go to “About Canada” right in the middle of the page, there are maps of Canada, facts on its history, Canada's symbols and quizzes.

What I would like to know from the minister is the progress that has been made on the website. It continually needs updating and advancement and I hope we are making good progress on the Government of Canada website.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, I think this is a useful question to indicate that the activities of Communications Canada are considerably more than simply the sponsorship program. If one were to judge only by the volume of commentary, one would think that Communications Canada does nothing but that. I do not mean to diminish the seriousness of the problems. Those problems are serious and they do need to be corrected, but there are other important activities that Communications Canada undertakes.

The 1-800-O Canada toll free telephone line receives more than 1.3 million calls from Canadians per year. The Canada website has thus far received more than 44 million page requests from Canadians across the country. The fairs and exhibits program has posted more than 1.2 million visitors in the last year alone. The list goes on about what Communications Canada does.

I would note, in relation to those three things in particular, the 1-800 number, the website and the fairs and exhibits program, those are specific initiatives that extend into rural Canada and reach rural Canadians in a very sensitive way.

I would also note that in the market surveys we conduct in order to try to assess the needs of Canadians, there is a deliberate effort to make sure that rural Canadians are explicitly included in the sample. We want to make sure that we are not just hitting an urban audience but that we are also reaching and understanding a rural Canadian audience. That is a part of the rural lens obligation that every department of government has.

Our colleague in the House, the Secretary of State for Rural Development, has drilled it into the head of every cabinet minister that the rural lens is not just a theoretical proposition but that it is something real and that we have to look at our policies through that lens. We are making use of the tools that have been provided by Communications Canada.

We are also making good use of technology. Government online, for example, e-government, establishing the e-business relationship between government and Canadians. That is particularly useful to those Canadians who do live in rural and remote locations where there is not a Government of Canada office just across the street or around the corner. Technology helps to eliminate some of the distance and some of the isolation factors.

As I have said in response to questions from other members earlier tonight, coming from a province like Saskatchewan I have a particular interest in making sure that we overcome those feelings of exclusion sometimes, of distance and of being left out. A department like Public Works and Government Services Canada can help build a sense of inclusiveness among all Canadians in the way we do business in every corner of this country and in the way for example we handle our contracting. We make sure, through our online tendering processes, that all qualified Canadian bidders, whether they are in downtown Ottawa, in the remotest corner of Yukon or in some part of rural Saskatchewan, have a part to play and have the means by which they can engage in what the Government of Canada has to offer.

Closing on this topic I would just point out that there is an international rating firm called Accenture that publishes periodic reports about how well different governments around the world are doing in relation to their e-government activities. I am pleased to say that out of 23 countries in the latest Accenture report, Canada ranked first in the progress that we have made with respect to e-government, reaching out to Canadians whether they are in downtown Toronto or in Tuktoyaktuk.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

My next question, Madam Chairman, relates to the improvements that are going on in the Parliament Buildings. As the citizens of Canada may know, there are ongoing renovations to the buildings on Parliament Hill to make them more functional and to fit in with the modern technologies and wiring needed in buildings today. I hope that the minister will make sure there is full consultation with all of us who work in these buildings every day. I notice that there could be vast improvements in the routes, the paths we take and the functions. I hope that members are consulted in detail. I think we have good input to make to those plans.

These buildings are of course a great part of our heritage. They are a symbol of our democracy. As a matter of fact, after September 11 I wrote to the Speaker about the preservation of these buildings because they are of such importance and are seen by Canadians across the country as a symbol of our democracy. Of course the foundation of our democracy is not in the buildings. It is in the hearts and minds of our people. However, thousands of Canadians come here every year to see these buildings because they are proud of them. I would hope that the minister could give us an update on the renovations on Parliament Hill.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

These renovations are important, Madam Chairman. As I think all members know, the government has approved a long term vision and plan for the parliamentary precinct and we are now proceeding with its implementation. It is to be phased in gradually over a period of time. I think that all members probably well recognize the need to modernize the parliamentary buildings and also to preserve their character and their heritage in the context of our democratic traditions.

I would note particularly, as members will know if they at any point cross the Hall of Honour just down the way, that renovations to the Library of Parliament are proceeding as anticipated. Additionally, there have been announcements with respect to a new building within the parliamentary precinct, known broadly at the moment as the Bank Street building.

All of this fits within the phased in plan that will run over a period of 25 years to try to ensure that the integrity of these facilities is preserved for future generations.

One thing that is important is to make sure that this work is done sensitively, with a lot of consultation with a lot of Canadians. These are premises that do not belong to any one of us. They belong to all of us and to generations yet to come, therefore the consultative process to make sure that this is done right is extremely important.

I am very pleased that my predecessors have announced the creation of a parliamentary precinct oversight advisory committee, which is under the very distinguished chairmanship of the Hon. John Fraser and includes a number of other distinguished Canadians, including Mr. Denis Desautels and others, who will have the responsibility of overseeing this process and ensuring that such consultations as are necessary are appropriately undertaken.

In this matter as with all others we want to be transparent, we want to be open and we want to make sure that the job gets done right, not just for us who happen to be here temporarily now, but for generations of Canadians yet to come.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Madam Chairman, I want to talk about a warning that goes along with fixing of administrative problems. When it is determined that there are administrative problems and new systems are put in place to fix them, sometimes we can go overboard. I had an experience in my riding, and I am sure it is similar across the country, where certain programs received so much attention that we went overboard.

Social service client groups told me that they were being held up so long because the administrative procedures that we had put into place to solve a problem, which was not enough care in the delivery of the program, had gone overboard. I want to warn against the Government of Canada in general doing that at any time. We need to be careful not to go overboard and over-administrate to the extent that hurts people, especially those who are the most needy.

I can see where a similar thing could come up in the minister's department if the programs and services were slowed down too much in respect to two huge megaprojects that we will have shortly in northern Canada. I hope we will have them because of the great benefits. One is the Mackenzie valley pipeline and the other is the Alaska highway pipeline. To a large extent these pipelines will go through small rural communities that then will have a massive influx of people, at least for a short time. They therefore will need government services to deal with those people and it will have to be done on a timely basis, because if Canada is not ready for this the United States will get its gas from some other source and Canada will lose all the benefits.

I do not expect a long answer to this, but I hope the minister, as he does reviews and ensures that programs are well handled, will keep in mind the fact that they are also done on a timely basis so that Canada can remain competitive in regard to services his department might have to provide.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, first, I take the hon. gentleman's point about the apparent conflict sometimes between control issues on one side and service issues on the other side. Obviously our objective here is to provide the very best possible service to Canadians. We want to do that in a timely way, but we also need to make absolutely sure that the public interest and the public trust are being respected.

As we have discussed quite amply this evening, in relation to some aspects of one particular program within Communications Canada there have been some problems in years gone by. Those problems have quite rightly raised public concerns and we are now in the process of addressing those public concerns, one of the steps being the freeze that I applied to any future activity as of last Monday.

I recognize that there are community groups and organizations across the country that would have been anticipating certain funding support, which is now being held up. That may well be causing them some local problems. I am very sensitive to that. I will try to arrive at any conclusions I can with respect to the moratorium as rapidly as possible to make sure that if there are difficulties caused at a local level they are kept to a minimum.

However, at the same time I want to be able to assure the general public that there is that level of transparency, accountability and value for taxpayers' money that Canadians have every right to expect. It is a tough balancing act in terms of delivering on expectations but doing so in a way that respects the public trust. I will try to come out with the right balance at the end of the day in being sensitive to all the requirements that are there.

In terms of northern gas, there is not an immediate direct and obvious role that the Department of Public Works and Government Services would play, except in terms of supporting other departments. Obviously in terms of northern gas there will be important roles to be played by the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, the Department of Natural Resources, the Department of Human Resources Development and a range of other departments. My department would naturally be called upon from time to time to provide support services to them. I want to assure the hon. member that whenever we are called upon to deliver on behalf of other government departments we will do our very best to respond promptly.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Madam Chairman, I notice that my colleague from Nunavut is here and I would like to ask a question in that respect. When we appeared before the Romanow commission a couple of hours ago, she again made the point that in rural parts of the northern territories some people feel that they would like to have the problems we have here in southern Canada. The differences are inconceivable. These people are faced with no running water. There is no infrastructure. Health facilities in some areas have requirements that people cannot imagine. I read somewhere that someone questioned the need for infrastructure. Such people should tour this part of Canada, these very rural parts of my riding and those of Nunavut and the Northwest Territories.

I would like to ask for a commitment from the minister for him to come and see some of these parts of Canada that many Canadians never see. This would enable him to tailor his programs and services and speak in cabinet about these people whose lives are totally different from the lives of the vast majority of Canadians.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, this probably does not relate directly to a program or a service provided by my department, but it does relate to a very important principle, and that is the principle of inclusiveness.

We live in a country that occupies the second largest land mass on the face of the earth. We run from sea to sea to sea, from the same latitude as the state of California to the North Pole. This is a huge land, a very diverse, far-flung land. There are parts of it that can sometimes feel pretty remote and pretty left out simply because of the sheer force of distance.

I take the member's representation seriously and I think it applies to every minister in our government. We need to work hard in every way we can, discharging our responsibilities so that people in the northern part of Canada in Yukon or Nunavut or the Northwest Territories can feel plugged into their nation and wanted and very much respected by their nation.

We do a lot of work on behalf of DIAND and indeed on behalf of the Department of National Defence in terms of northern Canada. One of the interesting activities being undertaken by Defence Construction Canada has to do with remedial work on the DEW line, which is obviously extremely important in the member's part of Canada.