Debates of Feb. 26th, 2003

Fisheries

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Burin—St. George's, NL]

Mr. Chairman, I am delighted to know the hon. member has come back from a good supper. It is obvious that it has improved his attitude.

Let me just say this to him. Maybe the hon. member thinks that we all should become members of the gun toting party. Maybe that is how he thinks we will keep the seals out of a zone where we have healthy codfish that are delicious meals for hundreds of thousands of seals.

My point is, yes, the FRCC recommended a seal exclusion zone. We are not talking about a garden gate with all this fish inside the gate so that we can close the gate and the seals will not get in. I am talking about being practical. It is one thing to recommend things, but practically, how do we establish a seal exclusion zone? The members can get up and be funny all they like. That is fine if that is the way they want to treat the issue, to be funny about it, but I am asking a serious question.

I take the FRCC very seriously. It does serious work and excellent work for the minister and the department, but how do we implement a seal exclusion zone? That means no seals. How do we implement that in an ocean, when we have a biomass of cod and hundreds of thousands of hungry seals out there, when we say let us establish a seal exclusion zone?

I have asked the question before. No one can define a seal exclusion zone. How do we implement it? How do we make it successful so those seals do not get in and eat the cod? No one has answered the question yet. The hon. member should not be funny about it, because we are talking about an ocean. We are not talking about a garden gate.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Chairman, I could not help but notice that tonight, out of the seven members of Parliament from Newfoundland and Labrador, five of them are participating in the debate. It shows how seriously their representation takes this debate.

The hon. member mentioned licensing and everything else. We know very well that in Newfoundland and Labrador and other parts of the country people who do not fish own many licences. That is something that the Canadian Council of Professional Fish Harvesters have stated time and time again. Its policy is quite simple: if we do not fish, we should not own a licence.

What is the hon. member doing inside the walls of government to advise the minister of exactly that principle alone. He knows that the FFAW, the MFU, the PEIFA, and many others in Newfoundland and Labrador and throughout Atlantic Canada are saying the same thing. They want regulations in place that state that if a person does not fish, they should not own a licence. I know that he agrees with that, but what is he doing inside the party to ensure that the minister knows that and will bring forth legislation to ensure that will be the case in the future?

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Burin—St. George's, NL]

Mr. Chairman, I thank the member for his very interesting question.

The member knows that we are going through an Atlantic fisheries policy review right now and we should allow that process to unfold. The issue that he raised is one that is under serious consideration now.

When it comes to licensing and resources, there is no doubt that everyone does not fish the resource. I do not believe that people who become millionaires and who live in Florida or other places detached from the fisheries should hold licences. As members of Parliament we struggle on a daily basis to find the resources to sustain communities that are already into the fishery and fish processing. Other communities which were in the fisheries have not worked for years. I believe the resource must be utilized by those people and there must be a balance. I am sure the hon. member knows that this is a complex issue.

Let me say one more thing about the possible closure of the gulf and the northern cod stocks. It is my belief that there is one resource that is abundant in our waters and that is the shrimp resource. It is a ballooning resource. It is my sincere belief that because of the crisis in the cod, and because there is no doubt in my mind that the crab zones are in trouble and we will see a reduction in quotas in some of those zones, the shrimp resource should be used to get us through this problem. Even if there is no total closure, but a reduction in the total allowable catch of cod in the gulf and the northern zones, somehow a way should be found to utilize those great shrimp resources for the benefit of those who will be hurt because of a cut or closure of the other resources.

It is an opportunity that, if we go about it right, we may find a way around this serious problem. People may not be hurt too badly financially and communities may survive.

[Andy Burton, Canadian Alliance, Skeena, BC]

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to rise today to speak on fisheries issues right across Canada. The House has heard and will hear members of Parliament representing many different views on the serious problems facing our fisheries. My view is from the perspective of a Canadian having lived his entire adult life in coastal British Columbia. I have seen firsthand the economic impact, both positive and negative, that the fishery can have on a community, particularly a remote community.

I am a member of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans and, as such, I have had the opportunity to learn more about some of the problems the fishery has faced on the east coast. I will share those views this evening. First, I would like to look at the overall problems with DFO.

In my riding, I am asked more questions and hear of more problems and concerns regarding DFO issues than probably any other matter. It all boils down to a real serious lack of understanding and proper management with DFO. There is too much top heavy management and not enough on the ground. The bureaucrats tend not to listen to good scientific advice. They are slow in implementing quota change and bad timing on salmon runs is an example.

My colleague spoke earlier about the loss to the British Columbia economy on the sockeye run on the Fraser River last year. Some $200 million were lost. On top of losing that economic impact, there is the possibility of damage being done to the spawning beds with over-escapement. I am not sure if that is clearly understood.

Over-escapement is as bad as under-escapement. If there were not enough fish spawning there would not be the returns, but if there were too many the damage to the fish beds and spawning grounds would be serious and there would not be the return either. Proper management is absolutely critical. It appears to be badly lacking not only on the east coast but the west coast as well, and it is getting worse.

We have a prolific river in my riding, named Skeena, which has some significant runs at times. The DFO manage it on a weak-stock management basis, which again eliminates access to a lot of the fish that could be harvested. Two years ago it cost the economy of Prince Rupert some $40 million because of this weak-stock management practice. It just does not take into account the adequate harvesting of these resources at the proper times which can be done if done properly.

Another major issue in British Columbia is the aboriginal fishing strategy itself, which is creating problems and will create more problems in the future. It has even been found to be illegal and that is something the government has not dealt with or has dealt with in an offhand manner. It will be a huge problem if we do not deal with it properly, as I am sure my colleagues will agree.

As far as enforcement officers on the ground, there are too many bureaucrats in the big cities. There are not very many fish spawning in the city of Ottawa and yet there is a huge fishery bureaucracy. It is not much different in a lot of the bigger cities across Canada. We must have people on the ground who are close to the resource and work with the fishery. It can work for everyone if it is done that way. We have huge problems the way it is right now.

There is the whole licensing issue where more licences have been concentrated in the hands of fewer owners and it too is creating a problem. Instead of a fishery that created jobs for literally hundreds and thousands of people in the past, we are now concentrating those jobs on fewer boats and with too much control on the part of one group.

The Heiltsuk Band in my riding is having problems with its spawn on kelp fishery, which has traditionally been fairly significant to them. The harvesting of that resource in the past has gone on in a fairly large commercial way, which it does not have a problem with. However, it is not being consulted in terms of management. Again, it boils down to local input into management issues. We need to have more hands in the management of these resources, whether it is an Indian band or local community.

An issue that is becoming fairly controversial and significant on the west coast is the issue of aquaculture and where it might go in the future. It is an opportunity, if it is done right, that could probably be successful. However, there are problems and these problems must be dealt with.

The issue of sea lice and those types of things that are creating problems with the fish farming industry and with the wild stocks must be dealt with. It behooves DFO and the fisheries minister to deal with these issues. To date they have not been dealt with properly or adequately.

That being said, I firmly believe the industry does have a future. It is like any other industry. It must be properly regulated, and allowed to have some rules and regulations that it can live by. That has not occurred to date and it must be dealt with on the west coast.

There has been a lot of discussion this evening about seals. Quite frankly it is a growing problem on the west coast. There is not a commercial seal harvest on the west coast at this point in time. I think there has to be. I would encourage the minister and the government to consider seriously a west coast seal harvest policy in the near future because we will have the same problems. We are starting to have the same problems on the west coast as exist on the east coast and a lot of it has to do with the explosion of the seal population.

I am aware of at least one group that is seriously looking at creating an industry on the west coast based on the harvesting of seals. I encourage the minister and the government to give that proposal serious consideration. It would not only create a new industry for British Columbia, but it would also help to deal with the serious problems that we have with the decline of the salmon resource in British Columbia, just like the cod resource on the east coast.

There are so many issues with the fishery. The Coast Guard has serious underfunding problems which has not allowed it to do its job adequately. It does an excellent job with the resources it has. It has good people but it needs the resources to do its job in an even better manner.

On the north coast, for example, there is absolutely no radar coverage. Radar coverage in British Columbia goes only as far as about halfway up Vancouver Island. The north coast is absolutely wide open.

[An hon. member]

Sounds a little risky.

[Andy Burton, Canadian Alliance, Skeena, BC]

It is a little risky, given September 11 and the possible threats out there. Our coasts are unguarded and it is something that must be dealt with. It can only be dealt with by adequate funding and the Coast Guard badly needs that funding.

The only MCTS Coast Guard operation in my region of Skeena is basically radio, VHF systems. When it goes down it is sometimes down for weeks on end because of weather, lack of parts, or old equipment. It just is not satisfactory and the Coast Guard cannot do its job without proper funding. We must address that.

The major thrust tonight was brought on by the Conservative Party and its concern about the east coast fishery problems. I had the opportunity last year to travel the east coast with the fishery committee and listen to some of the concerns. The possible moratorium on the northern cod stocks would be devastating to Newfoundland and Labrador. It would decimate communities and quite frankly there must be a better solution.

The solution that we must consider for the longer term is dealing with the seal population. There is absolutely no way that we can ignore that any longer. It must be dealt with.

There is a problem in Yukon and northern B.C. with placer miners. Fisheries and Oceans Canada in Yukon is creating a huge problem for the placer mining industry. It would devastate the Yukon economy. It would also seriously affect the economy in northern British Columbia because of regulations that are being put in place by the fisheries department that are absolutely untenable and cannot be lived with. Again, it is an issue that must be dealt with.

If the fishery were really a priority for the government, we would not be debating it this way. This would not have been a take note debate and our comments would have been taken seriously. I strongly urge the minister and the government to take these comments under serious consideration.

[Tom Wappel, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member, who is a very valuable member of the fisheries and oceans committee, raised a number of topics. I would like to confine myself to the issue of seals.

Just this week I received a letter from someone out in his neck of the woods urging that the seal hunt be banned entirely because there is a danger that the seal population will be wiped out.

Could the hon. member comment on the following and tell us if he agrees with it? The information that I have is that on the east coast, since he already told us there is not a commercial sealing industry on the west coast, the type of seal mainly used in the commercial industry is the harp seal. My information is that in 1970 there were approximately 1.8 million harp seals. Today there are approximately 5.2 million. That does not look to me like a harp seal population which is in danger of extinction.

It seems to me that there is a lot of misinformation out there that people rely upon and believe to be true. One can certainly understand that no one wants to hunt any species into extinction, but would the hon. member agree with me that some sort of a campaign of proper information needs to be mounted to properly educate Canadians on the true facts insofar as they relate to seals?

[Andy Burton, Canadian Alliance, Skeena, BC]

Mr. Chairman, the whole seal issue started some 40 years ago when it became known that Brigitte Bardot went out on the ice flows, and it just became a very emotional issue. At that time, the stocks were very strong and we stopped harvesting in a major way. We can see what has happened.

There is no question that on the west coast we have a huge and growing seal population. They are just as devastating to the salmon as they are to the cod stocks. As my colleague said earlier, a seal takes a bite out of the cod's stomach and off he goes. He gets the liver and maybe a little more. They do the same thing with the salmon. One seal can knock off 30, 40, 50 salmon a day. That is devastating to the stocks. When hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of seals are knock off these salmon every day, it is a huge problem.

On top of that, they sit at the mouths of the rivers. Seals are pretty smart little guys and they know where the food is. They sit at the mouths of the rivers. When the fish go up to spawn, they knock them off. In the spring when the fingerlings, the little salmon, come out, the seals sit at the mouth of the river and fill their stomachs. They will have thousands of little fish in their stomachs. I have seen it when they have been cut open.

It is devastating to the fish stocks. If we are to have a fishery on either coast, we have to deal with this problem.

[Georges Farrah, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Chairman, I thank the member for his comments. I think that it is worth noting that the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans works well together. The concerns of both the west coast and the east coast are defended, which gives us a good idea of what is happening across the country.

The member mentioned aquaculture. I think that there is a lot to be learned from the west about aquaculture, given the number of years they have been practising it out west. We know that the resource problem is getting worse and worse. Aquaculture may be a worthwhile alternative if done properly, while respecting sustainable development.

My colleague mentioned that he supports aquaculture. I would like to know if that is the position of the Canadian Alliance and if his party supports developing aquaculture. Could the member give me his party's position on this?

[Andy Burton, Canadian Alliance, Skeena, BC]

Mr. Chairman, my colleague said that someone could learn a lot from the west about aquaculture. I think the west has a lot to learn about aquaculture. It is in its infancy in the west. I strongly believe that the industry has a future but it also has a lot to learn.

There have been problems in other venues with the industry. Right now in British Columbia there are some real issues around sea lice and siting of aquaculture operations. It is like any other industry, the rules and regulations have to be in place and they have to be enforced. DFO has fallen down very badly in terms of enforcing proper siting in dealing with some of the problems that have occurred with the aquaculture industry.

I believe the industry is willing to co-operate, to learn and move on. It also needs the co-operation of this government and the department of fisheries in terms of helping it to develop and grow into a viable industry in British Columbia.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Chairman, with regard to aquaculture, two weeks ago, fishers from British Columbia were here. They had questions and they indicated that they were against aquaculture in their province for the very simple reason that there is no control and also because salmon can escape and get into the Pacific.

Speaking of experts, does the member not agree with me that the best experts are people with experience, in this case fishers who have been in the industry for 20 to 25 years? I once worked in mining. I remember an engineer who said that a miner with 20 years of experience and an engineer with seven years experience made a good team, a team with 27 years of experience.

Experienced fishers from British Columbia came to Ottawa to express their point of view, and it was not a repetition. Regarding the United Nations resolutions, some say there is no evidence yet that the fishery is threatened. What the UN says is that it must be clear that there is no threat.

All this is going on right now in British Columbia. The same thing could happen in Atlantic Canada. It is just another error by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, which is not taking its responsibilities.

The minister was warned two weeks ago. He says that he is listening to his experts. Is it not time that he listened also to fishers, those people who make a living from fishing?

[Andy Burton, Canadian Alliance, Skeena, BC]

Mr. Chairman, certainly my colleague has raised some very valid topics. One of the big problems is that DFO has not addressed its responsibility of dealing with aquaculture as a whole.

There have been huge cutbacks in DFO budgets. We heard earlier about the lack of scientific evidence and input into some of these problems, but aquaculture is an industry that is operated worldwide. It is in South America, Norway, Scotland, Ireland. There have been problems. We definitely have to learn from those problems. There is no question about that.

The point I am trying to make is that we have to learn in order to develop properly. If we do not do it right, it is like any other industry. It has to be done right. I do not care if it is a pulp mill, or a sawmill, or a steel foundry or any kind of industry, there have to be rules and regulations which have to be met and adhered to. I do not think aquaculture is any different.

Where we have fallen down is in setting out the rules and regulations and ensuring that they are adhered to, and there is where we have to learn in Canada.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Chairman, as the hon. member for Skeena knows, and it is in a beautiful part of the country, there is a major disconnect between those in the regions and management to DFO and those in Ottawa.

He knows that when we were in Vancouver we asked one of the directors for the Coast Guard what the situation was with financial resources for the Coast Guard. He said that money was not a problem. When we went out to the regions, every person condemned that manager for what he said.

Recently in the public accounts committee, the ADM for DFO said that they had the resources and the personnel to do the job. Where the hell do those clowns get the idea they know what they are doing? That is unbelievable. The fact is they have no idea of what is going on in the regions of this country and that is one of our biggest problems.

Would the hon. member agree with that?

[Andy Burton, Canadian Alliance, Skeena, BC]

Mr. Chairman, I definitely do agree. We have heard it very loudly and very clearly that there is not enough money, training or personnel. There will some huge problems with the whole Coast Guard and DFO. It is a nightmare.

Quite frankly, with the few dollars that the minister has thrown at the Coast Guard in this budget is just not satisfactory. On the north coast, in my riding of Skeena, we heard very clearly, when the committee was there, about the problems with equipment breakdowns, old equipment and lack of personnel. It just is not on and it is time the government wakes up and realizes it.

[Lawrence O'Brien, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Mr. Chairman, it is indeed a great honour on behalf of my constituents of Labrador and on behalf of all Canadians, particularly on behalf of constituents in Atlantic Canada, to speak to this debate tonight.

I hail from a small community of 600 people called L'Anse-au-Loup. It is located down around the straits of Labrador. My dad was a fisher and I grew up on a fishing boat. He bought seals for about 25 or 30 years. The last time I actively fished for cod was in 1981.

Through my 52 years, I have experienced a lot of change in the fishery. I, the member for St. John's West and other members in the House remember the days when we did not have to get a licence to fish. I remember the freedom of the fishery. I remember the freedom of getting a salmon in the fall when it was freezing up. I remember the freedom of catching caplin and everything else. I have seen that freedom evaporate as time has moved on.

That evaporation of freedom has caused me grief and passion. My affectionate views have caused me to speak here tonight. The concerns that I have expressed for the last six years, while a member of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, have also caused me to speak here tonight.

I am no longer a member of that committee, not because I do not feel the same about fish as I did last year, but because I felt it was a cycle and wondered sometimes where it was going. I am just as much concerned about it now. I moved on to a different committee. However I commend the chair and committee members for continuing to do the job.

I want to talk about seals as well tonight. In the month of May I can see seals passing by my house in L'Anse-au-Loup going north. They do not return until January. Right now those seals do not leave the Strait de Belle Isle.

My brother-in-law, Pat Cabot, actively campaigned to save the cod fishery back in the late seventies and eighties with a committee called the Newfoundland and Labrador Fixed Gear Fishermen's Association. Certain members here would know about what I am talking. My brother-in-law was a great sealer and a great fisherman. He was also a great advocate for saving the cod.

Nobody listened to him. Nobody in places that should have listened to him back in the eighties listened to him. Instead they continued to do what they did. Scientists would recommend a certain tonnage and politicians would double that tonnage. Those were the kind of decisions taken in the fishery. As a result, we saw a collapse of the fishery back in the late eighties and early nineties. There is a reinvention of that wheel as we speak and that is part of the debate here tonight.

There will never be another cod fishery unless we take stock of the real issues at hand. I want to be very clear. This has nothing to do with me being partisan. This simply has to do with how I feel as an elected representative and as a person from that small community of L'Anse-au-Loup. Growing up in Labrador, going up and down the coast and knowing Newfoundland and Labrador and Atlantic Canada as I do, I feel quite strongly that 300,000 seals a year will not solve our problem. We need a comprehensive plan that will take us far beyond the economics of seals to solve this problem.

I compliment the former minister of fisheries for doing a small cull on the west coast in a certain river. Culls may not be the answer. It may sound like an ugly word, and it is, but something has to be done to bring the seals into balance so that continuing economic development of the seals will create a balance and cod, herring, caplin as well as various other fish along the Atlantic coast can replenish. As an elected member, I will not stand and support closing the cod in the Gulf of St. Lawrence unless I see a very comprehensive plan for rebuilding that cod stock.

Unless there is a comprehensive plan, I want our fishers to continue to fish in some kind of limited fishing, with a hook and line or whatever the case may be.

I want to carry my case a little further to bycatches. All nets do damage and we cannot get away from that, whether they are nets of fixed gear, which is why we suggest a hook and line in the cod fishery as compared to fixed gear, or whether it be dragger nets which we saw for 40 or 50 years that I believe helped deplete the various stocks of the Atlantic. Now we are into the shrimp trawls and nets.

I think we can take a much better look at some of the things we are doing. For instance, in the Gulf of St. Lawrence we have a major shrimp fishery. The fishery starts in the first week of April. I have been told by the fishers who fish there that there is a huge caplin bycatch in the first two to four weeks. I do not agree with that.

Caplin is such a fundamental fish to the development of cod and many other species, seals included. We need to save those caplin. We need to grow them. They are very important fish. If we start catching it in huge numbers and tonnage in bycatches of other fisheries, it is a destruction to the resource. That is not what conservation is in the way that I think.

I want to talk about the shrimp industry and shrimp in general. There is supposed to be a lot of shrimp, some small, according to some fishers, some larger, depending on where one is too. Most of the fishing of shrimp is in the north at Cape Chidley, on the cape of Labrador, all the way up along the northeast coast of Newfoundland, up to what we call area 7 and the 3L area, up along as far as St. John's and off. Up through the Gulf of St. Lawrence there is a shrimp fishery, and it is growing. It is great to know that the shrimp industry is developing but in my view, it is not without its damages too.

Off Labrador in what we call the Hawke channel of Charlottetown-Labrador, a congregation of about 350-400 boats is taking little tiny turbot that escape the Nordmore grate which is in the shrimp nets. I have heard fishers say they catch as much as a tub or two per haul of those little tiny turbot. That is a massive destruction and we should be doing something about it. In addition, it is cod spawning grounds.

All we are asking is that DFO put in restricted zones bigger than the current 20x20 to save the crab, to save those other breeding fish. There is a lot of space elsewhere to catch shrimp. I do not think I am being unreasonable and fishermen agree. They are saying that to me every day. When I plead and ask the minister and the DFO officials to be cognizant of that, the answer is very simple: Science has not quite figured it out yet.

The truth is we do not have any science in the north. The further north we go, the greater the activity is in terms of fishing and there is the least amount of science because there is the least amount of people and the least amount of pressure. I am part of the least amount of people, folks, and I am part of the greatest amount of pressure and I am a part of the least amount of science.

I ask all Canadians, those listening tonight and those here in the chamber, to work with me to create some balance so that we have the same kind of resources working for us collectively. If we need further funds to give more balance to the science for that particular need, let us support it and let us get on with it.

All that is not being said without some good things. I want to reiterate some of the things I have heard tonight as well.

In terms of vessel replacement and where we are going, I think it is a great idea. I want to compliment the minister for moving on that. I want to say that going from permits and 34-11s and below to licensing is a great move in the right direction. Making the move to have flexibility on seals, even though it has not gone far enough, is a move in the right direction.

I would ask the department to work with us in some of the ways that I have suggested to further assist the fishers in making the right decision.

I want to make a final point. There are two types of people in the shrimp fishery, those in need and those in greed. I would ask the department to be more cognizant of those in need than those in greed. Those are my closing comments.

[John M. Cummins, Canadian Alliance, Delta—South Richmond, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's comments were reasoned, well thought out and sincere.

One issue which he did not address, and I wonder if he would care to, is the issue of enforcement.

In its January 2003 report on groundfish stocks in the Scotian shelf and the Bay of Fundy, the FRCC notes that there is a problem with discarding and unreported landings. It says that while the type of activity has been relatively limited, it is important and it can have an impact on the fishery. It goes on to recommend that DFO create a small task force to deal with this issue and suggests potential improvements for the surveillance and enforcement systems in various regions in Atlantic Canada.

I wonder if the hon. member would care to comment on that particular finding of the FRCC.

[Lawrence O'Brien, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Mr. Chairman, I certainly concur with the FRCC. I concur with the standing committee report. We brought many people in when I was on the committee. Many hon. members present were there. I support more enforcement.

I could talk about the bycatches of the shrimp and caplin which are good examples of enforcement. Enforcement can come in so many ways. We are lacking enforcement in a very big way. We need dedicated funds with dedicated strategies to better enforce the needs of fishers and of the fish themselves.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Chairman, when the hon. gentleman and my good friend was on the fisheries committee, we made a unanimous recommendation on ghost nets. To date very little or no effort is being made to retrieve ghost nets.

For the record, ghost nets are nets that have been lost and they fish continuously for many years at the bottom just above the ocean bed. If we could retrieve those nets and get them out of the ocean, we could do an awful lot for fisheries survival not only on the east coast but on the west coast as well.

Would the hon. member for Labrador like to comment further on the issue of ghost nets? What is he doing to ensure that the government is putting the resources in place to retrieve those nets and eradicate them as best as possible from the ocean floor?

[Lawrence O'Brien, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Mr. Chairman, certainly ghost netting is an issue. Imagine in the last 50 years the amount of nets and since monofilament lines came into play how many of those are still sitting around, gill nets. It is an astronomical number.

All the time various communities in the riding ask if I can get funds from Ottawa to help them retrieve ghost nets. It is a very conscientious view on the part of fishers and I share their view. It is a very important conservation measure for DFO, to consider putting funds in. If we cannot do it all, we can certainly go some way. Every one we retrieve is one less that fishes on a continuous basis.

[Loyola Hearn, Progressive Conservative, St. John's West, NL]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member talked about those who fish for need and those who fish for greed.

When I was growing up, a fisherman was somebody who went out in the boat, caught fish, sold the fish and gained maximum profit, such as it was in those days, 2¢ a pound perhaps. The fisherman got the maximum benefit from catching the resource.

Today every fisherman has to be licensed. Every person with a licence is certainly not a fisherman. Therein lies the major problem. The process has been so manipulated that large corporations, people with money, are buying up licences. They have other people front for them in the boat who obtain the minuscule part of the share. They are really destroying the whole process.

The beneficiaries of catching a resource should be the primary people who are involved, the fishermen themselves. The profits should not be spent in Florida.

Is that situation the same in his area? What does the member think about it? What can we do to change it?

[Lawrence O'Brien, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Mr. Chairman, the member has touched a nerve in my system.

We have a good example. We can talk about cod, about anything, but shrimp is a very good case in point. There are a dozen licences or so on the offshore and none of the people, in my view, are fishermen. The fishermen and fisherwomen are having a tough time trying to find the balance. They are in great need in terms of what I talked about earlier, the cod downturn. They are begging for some shrimp to make up the difference, just a few pittance of shrimp.

It is the same thing with the crab in 2J. It is in the downturn. We need to compensate that with shrimp but what are we getting? The greedy people are begging. They have the lobbyists, money, condos and the big boats. They have it all. They are the ones who are begging the minister on a continuous basis for the greater share of the potential expansion of that resource. I am totally, absolutely opposed to it.

[Rex Barnes, Progressive Conservative, Gander—Grand Falls, NL]

Mr. Chairman, we all know that Newfoundland and Labrador has a royal commission going on with regard to renewing and strengthening our place in Canada. Of course the member being from Newfoundland and Labrador and the constituency of Labrador, he is fully aware of it.

One issue that has arisen constantly in the public meetings is the clear and deep understanding that the economy of rural Newfoundland and Labrador in the past, present and future depends on the fishery. Given the collapse of the groundfish in the late 1980s and early 1990s and the lack of recovery since, participants have told us that rural fishing communities remain in a state of crisis.

We have heard that it is time for the Government of Canada to take overall responsibility for what has happened in the fishery, responsibility for doing whatever is possible to bring about a recovery in the fishery and responsibility for dealing with the fallout should a recovery not take place.

The hon. member is very knowledgeable. What does he think the federal government should do to make sure that these communities remain viable and make sure that these communities are not impacted financially?

[Lawrence O'Brien, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

The hon. member has made some excellent points.

If we look at the resources in Atlantic Canada and the way the fishing resource is distributed and put it in the context of people in need rather than people with greed in my view, the hon. member and I and many others would find that there is probably enough to go around to feed the mouths we are trying to feed. We can achieve that goal and give them a sensible income. That is my belief.

I believe also that we should move away from the corporate licensing of ownership of the fish resource and put it into the hands of what I call the ordinary fisherman or fisher woman.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Chairman, the people in the hon. member's riding want to fish. They do not want compensation packages. They do not want TAGS programs. We heard the FFAW say, “We are not part of this game. We want to be able to fish. Fix the problems before you give us more money to not do our job”.

Would the hon. member agree with that sentiment? Being on the government side is the member proposing that the government rethink this before it makes the final decision and shuts down the economic opportunity of thousands of people on the east coast?

[Lawrence O'Brien, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Mr. Chairman, I share the comments made by the hon. member. Certainly our fishers want to fish. Our plant workers want to work in the plants. Our businesses that thrive off of those plants and fishers need to continue to survive. It creates a balance.

Whether it be on the shores of Labrador in the Labrador straits, or on the Newfoundland shores of the northern peninsula, or the north shore of Quebec or Gaspé it is all one and the same. My point is these people want a way of life. Fishing is a way of life. It is an income. It is a pride. They want to continue that pride.

We do not want the kind of make work projects that give six months work, a year's EI and goodbye. We still have to survive.

Creating the balance, utilizing the species that we have, trying to grow the ones that are in trouble, creating a balance in the cod, in the shrimp, in the crab and so on, that is the way to go in the future. That is the challenge for DFO, working with us all collectively to achieve that aim.