Debates of Feb. 6th, 2003

Supply

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his question.

First, I disagree with those who say the government should operate on the basis of polls alone. However, we cannot ignore the fact that a large portion of the public has serious reservations about a war in Iraq.

My colleague is right and I would go further by saying that, at the present time, public opinion is the last bastion of peace. Some are starting to feel the heat. President Bush is feeling the heat and the British Prime Minister is feeling the heat within his own party from people who say to be careful.

That is perhaps the fundamental notion, the lesson of this morning, and of this day. Maybe the Prime Minister of Canada is afraid of the members of his own party on this issue right now, which is probably why he is trying to prevent a vote in this House. As I said earlier, there will certainly be a political price to pay if he denies the members of this House a vote on such a fundamental issue.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I have already had the opportunity to commend the official opposition for today's motion. I am also pleased about the amendment which was brought forward and which I also find very important.

Before I get into the substance of the motion that has been put before the House and the position of the New Democratic Party, we would be well advised to remind ourselves of the wise words of Lester Pearson in a similar debate many years ago, when he said:

The grim fact is that we prepare for war like precocious giants, and for peace like retarded pygmies.

Until recent years many Canadians would have thought that advice coming from Lester Pearson was not toward the Liberal Party of this place, but toward those who would be seen as warmongers and hawks in the international stage.

However, the reality is that there is alarming evidence that the government has been speaking out of both sides of its mouth on the whole question of what Canada's position is vis-à-vis a possible war against Iraq. It is critically important that we begin to come to grips with that very serious problem.

Rather than just reminding the Alliance opposition of this warning by Lester Pearson, it is members of that once proud Liberal Party who need to be taking very seriously his advice in that respect.

This morning's meeting in the foreign affairs committee was very disappointing. After having had brave words from the foreign affairs minister to the effect that Canada continues to speak with a strong consistent voice on its position with respect to any possible war against Iraq, he then proceeded to be inconsistent, contradictory and as always, erratic in responding to questions that were put to him on this very question.

We already know the line of the Prime Minister, the foreign affairs minister, and at least those in the frontbenches who have spoken out with respect to the question that is now before us in this opposition day motion, namely, the need to respect and ensure the participation of all parliamentarians in a vote in the House of Commons on what is surely one of the most serious decisions that any nation can make, that is, launching a war against another country.

Why is it necessary for us to debate the question of whether a vote should be allowed? I guess there are two explanations. First, the position of the Liberal Party is that it is completely acceptable to take one position in opposition, which it did in the event of the gulf war and adamantly maintained that there needed to be a vote by all parliamentarians in the House of Commons, and to take a different position when in government.

Second, and in some ways this is even more worrisome because everybody knows that there is a record in the Liberal Party of speaking the voice of peace when in opposition, but sounding far too much like the voice of the hawks or the voice of war when in government.

However, far more serious than that, the reason we are having this debate is that the federal Liberal government has virtually abandoned the time honoured role, the hard earned role, and the highly respected role, of being among the peace builders, peace seekers and peacekeepers of this world. That goes to the very heart and soul of who we are as a nation.

Perhaps it is useful to refer to the facts about what parliamentary debate and votes took place in the House of Commons in the context of the 1991 gulf war.

I do not want to use all my time describing in detail what the various motions were and what the various votes were, but let it be said, let the record show and let the Liberal government of the day be reminded that between October 23, 1990, and late January of 1991 there in fact were three full debates in the House, not take note and let us have a little chat late at night debates, but real, thorough debates in the House of Commons. Eleven days were devoted to those debates. Seventy-one hours of debate took place. There were six votes on the very question of Canada's military participation in any gulf war.

How was it that the Liberals were so adamant in maintaining that this was not only the right of parliamentarians but absolutely the responsibility of the government of the day to ensure that all parliamentarians had an opportunity to exercise their responsibility?

Only the government can answer the question of how it was fine to take one position 12 years ago and to today take exactly the opposite position. Perhaps if it is reminded of what took place 12 years ago and of how heartbroken, I believe, more and more Canadians are about its abandonment of a responsible, independent foreign policy then perhaps it could be brought to its senses and recognize the simple justice involved, never mind the democratic requirements of ensuring that all parliamentarians have a voice.

Why are we so concerned about ensuring that there be a voice for parliamentarians? It is not just because we like to hear ourselves speak. It is not just because we think that in the casting of a vote somehow we 301 people have a special importance here. It is because we are here representing our constituents. We are here representing Canadians. What is becoming increasingly evident is that the government is not listening to the voices of Canadians with respect to the issue of any possible military engagement in the war on Iraq.

I know that when I get up and speak as the foreign affairs critic and when my colleagues get up and speak as New Democrats, as parliamentarians, about how desperately Canadians want their government to be a voice of peace, Liberal members stand and say, “What kind of naive talk is that?” or “What does that mean anyway?”

Let me say what that means. It does not just mean mouthing words about hoping that peace can be achieved. It is about being an advocate for peace. It is about being a relentless, resolute activist for peace. It is about Canada making the choice that it wants to be associated with those other governments around the world that are using every possible means to ensure that we do not end up in a war in Iraq. I do not think there is any evidence that this is what the government is doing.

In fact sometimes when the response from the foreign affairs minister sounds like it is a strong position advocating an independent foreign policy role, it is as if suddenly a ventriloquist comes along behind him and he then practically reverses the position right within the same sentence or right within the same discussion. That is not what people mean when they say they want Canada to be an advocate for peace.

Let me just say that it is very distressing, because we have had a concrete example. This is not some abstract difference of opinion going on here. This is the New Democratic Party speaking, we believe, for the increasing numbers of Canadians who want leadership on the international stage around the looming, threatening prospect of a war on Iraq, and we are not getting it.

This morning in the foreign affairs committee the minister actually dismissed as hypothetical questions as to what the position of Canada is, not what it would be in the future but what it is today, on the possibility that Hans Blix will say more time is needed and that there is indeed conclusive evidence of material breach by Iraq in the event that the U.S. declares it is going to war. He refused to answer those questions. The question was about the following. Are there not other steps? Are there not alternatives to war? Are there not things that Canada has in its current foreign policy as to what can be done rather than going directly to war? The foreign affairs minister basically said that it was a hypothetical question.

A second question was asked. If the recommendation of the Security Council is to have more time for the weapons inspections to continue and the U.S. unilaterally declares its war, what is Canada's position on that? The answer was basically that this was a hypothetical question.

If we follow that through to its logical conclusion, would Canada have any foreign policy on anything? This is about what Canada is saying today and going to do tomorrow in the event of certain things happening. That is what our foreign policy is.

It is appalling that the foreign affairs minister was not able to stand up and speak to the excellent, specific, concrete recommendations, for example, that came from an experienced, esteemed, expert panel on alternatives to war with Iraq when he was asked that question this morning. The panel tabled its report and sent it to the government on December 11. It has been widely circulated publicly. The minister did not make a single reference to the four very clear, concise, concrete recommendations on what Canada could and should be doing so that we do not find ourselves in the position of finding a material breach by Iraq, and this is quite possible, let me be clear about that, and a declaration of war. There are concrete measures that can be taken in the interim and the government is sitting there with excellent recommendations to that effect.

When we talk about this being a choice for Canada and therefore parliamentarians should have their say in what choice Canada makes, I know that the government dismisses this whole thing as if it is some kind of abstract question. I come from a riding where there is a very large number of military men and women whose lives are in the balance when a discussion like this happens. They have mothers, fathers, children, brothers, sisters and neighbours, all of whom care about them and all of whom want to know that the government is doing absolutely everything within its power to ensure that our loved ones are not sent off into harm's way when other options are available.

In addressing this issue, I had a very fine message earlier this week from a man in my own province whom I greatly admire and respect, Dr. Kell Antoft, who served Canada's military very proudly and who lost his brother in the second world war. Dr. Antoft continues to be an active veteran in this country, speaking to issues of war and peace.

I will just briefly quote from what he had to say in the event that the government fails to provide the leadership being sought by Canadians and the world:

Regardless of the urgency of attempts being made in the United Nations to preserve some semblance of peace...it seems increasingly clear that in the case of Iraq, the leadership of the United States will really only be satisfied with a military “solution”. Canada will be under pressure to decide on its role in this unfolding human tragedy. Should we offer as a loyal ally to take part in the killing phase of a possible campaign, or should we rather seek a non-violent role in binding up the wounds that would inevitably be the principal legacy of such a war?

Dr. Antoft went on to say, “From a military point of view, we are clearly ill prepared” for a variety of reasons that we don't have time to debate at this moment “to take part in the fighting”. He states:

Apart from the question of available manpower, and in spite of the prevailing mantra of our DND establishment that our soldiers need training only for combat, we have little of the heavy hardware demanded by modern warfare.

He went on to remind us that “It was in peacekeeping following”, ironically, “earlier Middle East conflicts that Canada” began to accumulate “an enviable reputation” in the world.

Lamenting deeply, as do the majority of Canadians, in my view, he said that Canada has “tended to squander some of the goodwill earned by our forces”. That is who has earned us the goodwill over the years, the forces who have behaved in a manner consistent with the commitment of Canadians to be peace builders and peace seekers and peacekeepers.

Dr. Antoft's words of advice are extremely well founded. I hope the government will see fit to pay attention to that kind of advice, which is coming more and more from those who are desperate to see Canada play a role consistent with our proud tradition as peace builders and peace seekers.

Before I conclude, I want to comment again about the issue of our having a vote. It seems to me that the government is not listening to what Canadians are telling it. It is not even listening to the advice that has stood the test of time, for example, that which came from Lester Pearson.

I know that in these matters sometimes we are unduly partisan, but I want to say that if the government will not listen to the voices of members on this side, to expert panels or to the many other sources of advice that are forthcoming, then maybe it could at least begin to listen to the advice of Canada's former foreign affairs minister, Lloyd Axworthy, who has demonstrated not just in words but in deeds and action that Canada continues to have an important role to play among the mid-sized nations who genuinely understand the concept of human security and realize that there are no military solutions anymore and that Canada needs to become a no war country, one that says we will engage in fighting on every single front to bring about peace, reconciliation and reconstruction in the lives of people. In this case we are talking about the lives of Iraqis. That is who is lost in all of this.

I want to say again that we absolutely plead with and implore the government to understand that we cannot exercise our responsibility as parliamentarians, that the Liberals are not exercising their responsibility as a government if they do not allow the people of Canada to speak through their 301 elected parliamentarians to take a formal, public and on the record position of where each and every one of the government members stand and where the respective political parties stand on the issue of launching a war in Iraq.

Let me conclude by making it absolutely clear where the New Democratic Party stands. We stand with those who say no war, no way.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to make some comments and then ask a question.

When the U.S. declared war on bin Laden in Afghanistan, I quoted part of a speech made in 1991 by the current Prime Minister who was at the time the Leader of the Opposition in the House of Commons. He clearly stated that the Canadian government should never go to war under the aegis of the United States, only under the aegis of the United Nations. Never should we go to war under the aegis of another country.

Nowadays, the same man, the Leader of the Opposition at the time and currently the Prime Minister of Canada, is saying something completely different. When I first made my speech, he said that we were not talking about the same thing.

I would like to know what the member for Halifax thinks about the position the Prime Minister took when he was in the opposition and the one he is taking now. How could it have changed? He said one thing when he was in opposition and now that he is in office he is saying something completely different. I would like to find out what the member thinks about all of this.

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the reference just now to the questions I asked this morning by the hon. member.

I should point out that everybody in the House would say that war should be a very last resort. That is the essence of the government's position which has been well enunciated by the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

I realize that there was not a lot of detail in answer to a hypothetical question. I certainly hope that the government is thoroughly thinking of these matters and these various scenarios. I can understand its only divulging so much publicly. I think the position of our government is the correct one at this point.

I would like to get to the motion before us which was moved by the Canadian Alliance House leader. I would like to ask the hon. member why it is that we cannot have, instead of the motion that is before us, what is already within the procedures of the House and that is a party can move non-confidence in the government if it does not like the government's decision?

The Alliance House leader is saying in his motion that the House should make some decision after the government has made its decision to confirm it. If it is a very serious matter, such as war, perhaps a confidence motion is the appropriate thing to be moving.

I know the hon. member cited the position of the Liberal Party when it was in opposition. At that time I was not there and I do not know all the rationale behind it. Maybe the Conservative government did the wrong thing in allowing the vote. I have looked into the history of this chamber and Parliament did not declare Canada's entry into World War II. This Parliament did not declare Canada's entry into Korea. In fact, there is a much stronger tradition of the executive branch, the cabinet, making those decisions.

The cabinet is in the best position to make those decisions. It has all the relevant information, including intelligence information that it cannot divulge publicly if it is getting into a conflict situation. It is appropriate for the government to make that kind of decision.

If the opposition does not like it, it can move a non-confidence motion. I see no point. Perhaps the hon. member could comment further on the need for this motion that has been put by the Canadian Alliance. There is a procedure already in place to deal with such matters.

[An hon. member]

And bring down the government.

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

If it is that serious maybe that is what should be moved.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I understand the member's point. I too am distressed at the idea that the motion only contemplates a role for Parliament after the fact. I personally find that inadequate.

Perhaps this is the difficulty I have with the suggestion made by the Liberal member. It is not just about yes or no. It is also about the role. The most serious responsibility of opposition members is to try to move the government toward doing the progressive thing. It is not about confidence or non-confidence. I believe it is about using every possible means.

Someone wrote to me saying what they would like the government to do and that we need to do everything in our power to prevent war. We need to make it clear that we will put our hearts and souls into peacekeeping in a number of concrete practical ways.

It is the process of trying to get the government to respond to the many sources of good advice that it is hearing. The government has to be accountable for what it is doing or not doing. This is the role of the opposition.

The point is that we cannot just put this off into take note debates that are not at the core of the parliamentary process. We know this. What is becoming clearer unfortunately is it is the government's tactic for dealing with really urgent matters.

I will say again that we need not just one vote after the fact. We also need to have some motions put forward with genuine alternatives. Then we need to have some votes on where members actually stand. We need to keep trying to move the government toward being that proactive peace seeker which not just Canadians but the world counts on Canada to step up to the plate and actually be in the world today.

[The Deputy Speaker]

There are only two minutes left on this intervention. We have time for a one-minute question followed by a one-minute answer.

The hon. member for Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question will be brief.

Since Mr. Powell's presentation yesterday, is there not room for a peace initiative by Canada? We could put forward the idea that, instead of going to war, we should develop a permanent or long term control and verification system in Iraq to ensure that there are no inappropriate activities going on in that country. This would allow us to avoid a war.

Should the Government of Canada not play a leadership role in this regard, which, unfortunately, is not the case right now?

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I absolutely think Canada should be playing a leadership role.

They could do no better than follow the advice from that panel of experts on alternatives of war when it recommended that no Canadian participation should take place in or support for military action against Iraq without the clearest possible justification under international law. It went on to say that in particular Canada must reject an invasion of Iraq, unless and until there has been an express authorization of the use of force by the UN Security Council after it has determined that a bona fide and imminent threat exists to international peace and security that cannot be resolved or contained in any way other than through the use of force.

Yesterday's presentation by the U.S. to try to justify Bush's war that he is hell-bent to conduct absolutely does not meet any of those criteria. That is why it is so unacceptable that the government is not willing to commit itself to the course of action recommended as an alternative to war.

[Loyola Hearn, Progressive Conservative, St. John's West, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

There have been consultations among parties and I believe you would find unanimous consent for the right hon. member for Calgary Centre and the member for Cumberland—Colchester to divide their 20-minute speaking time into two parts as they may determine.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Does the House give its consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I rise in the House to support this positive motion brought forward by my colleague, the member for West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast. We will also support the amendment proposed by the Bloc Quebecois.

I will be sharing my time with the member for Cumberland—Colchester.

Today's debate on having a vote in the House of Commons before any military intervention in Iraq is welcome. However, I find it sad that we had to wait for an opposition day to have an opportunity to debate this issue.

It should be clear that the motion does not call for a vote now on the involvement of Canada but rather a vote as soon as the government has taken a decision. No one is rushing the government. The issue is, will the government be allowed to push Parliament out of the way?

For weeks now, all opposition parties have been demanding a vote prior to any military action, but these reasonable requests have fallen on deaf ears. The relevant precedents support the practice of Parliament voting on questions of war. The government can hide behind exceptions, but those exceptions are clearly not the rule.

What is more to the point is that public attitudes have changed profoundly since 1911, since 1939 and since 1950. For any minister who missed the 1960s, the whole debate about Vietnam reflected a fundamental change in the determination of citizens in democracies to be heard on questions of war and peace.

Yesterday, in my office, I had a visit from a young student from the Outaouais who circulated a petition that was signed by 3,000 students from the region. The petition will be presented by the member for Gatineau later this session. This shows that young people are deeply committed to issues dealing with war and peace.

Citizens today are more educated. They are more exacting and more determined to shape the events that shape their lives. Just as ministers can no longer get away with slipping off to some wealthy contributor's chalet, governments cannot get away with slipping off to war.

Parliament took clear account of those new public attitudes during the gulf war, which is the one engagement that most precisely parallels what faces Canada and the world today. This whole Parliament, every party agreed to precisely the right to vote that is being proposed here today.

In 1993 the Liberal government broke that consensus and brought in a new practice that denied Parliament the right to vote on military engagements, a vote that Parliament had exercised as recently as 1991. I point out to Liberal members opposite that that reversal on democracy was not in the Liberal Party red book of 1993. When it sought the support of citizens in the 1993 election, the Liberal Party did not campaign on denying Parliament the right to vote on these matters. On the contrary, the position of record of the Liberal Party in the 1993 election was the position it took in Parliament on the gulf war when the Liberal Party asked for precisely what is proposed in the motion today.

My point is not simply that the motion reflects exactly the position the Liberal Party asked for in 1991. It represents the position the Liberal Party stood for in the 1993 election when it won its mandate. Liberal members who might be pressured to oppose the motion would break faith with both what the public wants today and with what the Liberal Party stood for when it won its mandate in 1993.

The precedent clearly exists, the government's commitment is clear, and all that is missing is the willingness of members opposite to ensure that this House has the opportunity to do something concrete by voting on this issue.

The debate today is not about the government indulging Parliament. The government needs the authority of a vote by Parliament. Deliberately putting Canadian lives at risk is not a trivial matter. By definition, it is a decision a thousand times more grave than the ordinary day to day decisions of governments.

If the educated, informed, engaged, modern citizens of Canada are going to support a military action which could cost lives and which could have literally untold consequences, then those citizens must be brought into the decision. Canadians are reasonable if they are treated reasonably. They are capable of judging a case if they are allowed to hear that case. They would be far more likely to support a decision by the government if that decision were openly arrived at with the votes in Parliament that Canadians expect on matters of life and of death.

The Canadian public is deeply divided on the issue of war in Iraq. Public instincts in Canada are against decisions which the government refuses to put to a vote.

If any war goes wrong, if there are Canadian casualties, if bad judgment precipitates the collapse of stable regimes in Jordan, Egypt, or elsewhere in the Middle East; or if it precipitates the outbreak of violence in Indonesia, Africa, south Asia, Europe, or in the former Soviet Union; if the coalition against terrorism is shattered, the Canadian government is going to need Canadian public opinion. It is going to need legitimacy. It is going to need authority. A free and honest vote on any dangerous course of action is the best way to assure that legitimacy. To proceed without it would put at grave risk the government's ability to govern should, God forbid, things go badly wrong.

That authority is essential also in the wider world. In the short term, in the excruciating but relatively easy days of preparing for war, our potential allies want other governments on side, but as the going gets tough, they will want other populations on side. They will want to know that the Prime Minister speaks for more than his family and his friends. If Parliament is shut out and if the people are shut out when the basic decision is taken, Canadians will have no sense that any decision taken by the government on war or peace is their decision.

As times get tougher, they will turn away from a government which turned away from them. In that sense, the issue is not about democracy now. The issue is about authority later. The motion provides the simplest way to begin to build that authority.

In conclusion, I want to tell the government members that this motion is not, in any way, a non-confidence vote against the government. On the contrary, it is a vote for strong parliamentary democracy.

There is no possible way this can be considered a vote of non-confidence in the government. Votes of non-confidence bring the government to a halt. The motion explicitly contemplates that the government will stay in office, will continue to govern and will be free to take, as I quote the language “a decision...to involve Canada in any military action to disarm Saddam Hussein”. All the motion asks is that the ministers take account of the votes of the members of the House of Commons.

The parliamentary democracy of Australia did take a different course this week. It voted on specific motions of non-confidence in the government. That could have been done here if we were interested simply in playing politics. It was not done here. A different course was taken. A vote against the motion is a vote against Parliament and a vote against the right of the people to have their elected representatives decide the most critical issue that a nation will face.

[Sarkis Assadourian, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, in 1994 the government introduced what we call take note debates. Since then the opposition has always asked that we should have a vote after each take note debate. Now it turns around and comes up with another motion which says that the day after the Government of Canada decides to send its troops we must come back and vote if it was a good or bad idea.

What the hon. member is saying is that the day after the war starts, we should come here to vote. If we say no, we do not want the war and we want the troops back from the Iraqi theatre, the Prime Minister would have to phone President George Bush and say that our Parliament voted against it so we have to bring our troops back. Is that what the hon. member expects us to do?

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, we are proposing exactly what the member for Saint-Maurice, the then leader of the opposition and the present Prime Minister, proposed in 1991. The precedent is drawn precisely from what was proposed by the Liberal Party in opposition then.

The hon. member was elected 1993. I would be interested in knowing whether the hon. member, when he sought election in his constituency, went out and told his electorate that he intended to change the rules. The rules were that Parliament had a voice on questions of war and peace. Did he promise his electors that he would break those rules? Does he have any mandate to break those rules, or did his electors know that his Prime Minister, his leader, as leader of the opposition had embraced and urged the right of Parliament to vote?

That was the record of the Liberal Party. It had no mandate to break that practice when it took office in 1993. Yes, it brought in take note debates. Why? Not to hear from Parliament, but to deny Parliament the opportunity to have any real influence upon the decisions of the government. That is at the heart of the debate. That is why this motion asks precisely that the House of Commons today follow the practice recommended by the leader of the Liberal Party and the Liberal Party in 1991.

[Myron Thompson, Canadian Alliance, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member for his comments. I have a great interest in what is taking place in this particular situation, but I have a larger interest in ensuring that democracy prevails, particularly in this place.

I believe the intention of this motion is to see to it that that happens. I find it discouraging that when members from the Liberal government rise they are not speaking directly to the motion. They are avoiding it like the plague.

Could the member explain to me as to why they are avoiding even talking about the motion when they rise and speak to this issue?

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, that is a very important question. I did not draft this motion; it was drafted by others. It was drafted very specifically to ensure that the principle would be respected, that Parliament would have the right to vote once a decision had been taken by the government. It was designed to maintain the tradition that had been established during the 1991 gulf war.

My only guess would be that the reason the Liberal Party members are not addressing that issue is that they know they have no mandate to break that tradition. They know that the people who voted for them in 1993 assumed that they would continue to defend the right of Parliament to vote on these issues, which their own leader had argued for so strongly in 1991. I remember how strongly he argued for it.

It is important for members of the Liberal Party to know that those of us in opposition will be making sure that their own constituents understand how they have voted against the mandate that they received when they were elected.

The simple fact is that they do not want to talk about it because they broke their word. I would urge them to go back to the position which helped them win the election in 1993, the position of saying that Parliament should have a right to vote on these issues.

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I want to respond to the hon. member for Wild Rose who said that government members are avoiding the question like the plague.

Mr. Speaker, you and I will remember back in 1990 when the Liberals did not avoid the question. They were very adamant. In fact the foreign affairs minister's predecessor, Lloyd Axworthy, a prominent Liberal, stated at that time:

...to deny the opportunity for this Parliament to be heard or to represent the Canadian people, to have the question posed, is a dereliction of duty by the government.

That is what the Liberals were saying then when they did not avoid the argument that they are avoiding today.

This whole issue is about contradictions. It is about the right of Parliament to be respected and heard. In 1990 before the first Iraq war Parliament was heard. There was a vote and we did have an opportunity to stand up. No issue is more important than the one we are talking about. I go back to Lloyd Axworthy again, who asked on October 23, 1990:

...can we get assurances from the minister...to have Parliament consulted before any final decisions are made as to these plans relating to our forces in the gulf area?

That question could be asked again today and probably is being asked by Lloyd Axworthy because he is one Liberal who has not changed the rules or has diametrically gone in the opposite direction.

This is a very important issue that we are talking about. It is about our ability to represent our constituents, as the Liberals once very adequately and eloquently defended but have given up on that principle. They have changed the rules altogether.

After the Conservatives agreed to have a vote, the then leader of the opposition, and now the Prime Minister, still complained that it had not occurred earlier. He said:

...we are being called upon to vote on a resolution... We on this side of the House believe that this resolution should have been brought to a vote before January 15, as was done in the U.S. Congress.

He was not happy with the time of the vote, but at least he got one. The same Prime Minister is now saying no vote for this Parliament. A vote then, but no vote now.

We can go on to the current House leader who now says no vote. On January 17, 1991, he stated:

...I think I had a right and my constituents had a right to have that fundamental question posed and to have all of us speak on the question that should have been before Parliament.

What happened to that man? Now he is saying no vote. We have the current Liberal House leader saying no vote. The Prime Minister says no vote. The former Liberal foreign affairs minister says no vote. It is pretty much unanimous now that there will be no vote, but at that time they did demand a vote. Now none of them will support Parliament having a vote.

This morning in the foreign affairs committee the Minister of Foreign Affairs, a man for whom I have great respect, came in and said there is a very important role for Parliament in this debate about Iraq. What is the role if we cannot vote? Then he said he did not think the committee should hear witnesses from the United States or Iraq on this issue, which was a motion I was going to present later on in the committee meeting.

I ask again, if Parliament is supposed to have an important role and we cannot vote, we cannot hear witnesses, and we cannot participate, what is the important role for Canada? I was very disappointed in the way that happened.

We do have an important role. We are being muzzled and denied the right to speak. We are being denied the right to vote. We are being denied the right to hear witnesses in committees. These are important issues.

If the government changes its mind and allows us to vote on this issue, I may be asked to vote on whether we send Canadians to another country to attack another people. I want to know as much as possible about that issue before I make that decision. I want to hear from the parties involved. I want to get every piece of information I can, but the government for some reason says no, we should not know this. We should not have this information. We should just go by what other people tell us and that we should trust the people in the government who are here to help us.

The fact of the matter is we have been denied the access to information. We have been denied opportunities to hear from witnesses who are very much involved. I know there was another motion that was contemplated in our committee this morning, which was to have a vote. That discussion was adjourned and the vote was gone.

The whole strategy here is to keep everyone quiet, not to listen to anyone, and not to let anyone vote or do anything. Then the government turns around and says Parliament has a very important role to play. If we cannot vote and cannot hear witnesses, what is that role?

[Aileen Carroll, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, it is important to note the reasoning on the part of the foreign affairs minister in this morning's committee meeting. I want to query the member about his lack of understanding.

The minister made clear that his concern about providing a venue at this time for Iraqi officials would distract them from the onus that is heavily upon them to be working with the people in the country right now looking for weapons and that it is their job to be doing just that. Their venue is the United Nations. That is exactly where the Iraqis are to focus. To create a whole series of discussions in parliaments around the world, from our perspective, would do nothing to achieve peace and would provide further obfuscation.

I want to ask the hon. member: what is it about what has been said to date by the Iraqi officials and what happened regarding the way they have approached this, namely, failing to come forward and meeting the onus set by resolution 1441, does he not understand. What does he need to hear again in a committee room in the House of Commons?

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, again, I do not understand that argument. I heard it this morning. I did not understand it then and I do not understand it now.

We, as a Canadian people, will be asked to attack another people. It is not only Saddam Hussein, who everybody agrees should be eliminated out of the picture, moved away, or taken away and the regime changed, or whatever. Nobody argues with that.

My argument is the Canadian people may attack a people who have never attacked us. If we are prepared to attack another people, it does not matter who it is, we should be prepared to listen to them. I do not understand why Canada will not listen to people. I just do not understand that change in foreign policy, that we will bomb but not listen. No matter who it is we should listen.

That came up at Concordia University. Everybody should be allowed to be heard and have the opportunity to be listened to in Canada. To say, “We are not going to listen to people, but we may attack them” is wrong.

As far as the venue of the United Nations goes, I support the United Nations 100%. The problem is the government will not say whether it supports the United Nations or not.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, according to my hon. colleague, are the Liberal members not taking a stance—as we have been unable, ever since the beginning of this debate, to find out if they are going to vote for or against the motion—because they have been jolted by our arguments so far and there might be differences of opinions within the Liberal majority, which would explain why no member of the government has been willing to set out its position?

They might have been jolted by the positions we have taken, because in the end members of four different political parties will possibly be voting differently on the advisability of sending troops. However, these four parties and their members agree that the House should have the opportunity to vote. Would that explain what is going on here?

All members must have received letters from people telling them why we should not go to war and from others who believe we should support the United States. But these people all agree on one thing, “Keep in mind your duty as elected representatives, you are paid to do a job.” When is the government going to let us vote on this issue?

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I want to make it clear that our position is that we are against a violent solution if there is a diplomatic one available. We are not at all satisfied that every effort has been made to find a diplomatic solution.

To answer the question, I asked that question this morning of the Minister of Foreign Affairs. I asked what his position was and how he would vote? He said the House leader would come into the House and give the position of the government. Here is what the government House leader said on January 17, 1991, and it would be interesting to see if he says the same thing today. He said then:

...I think I had a right and my constituents had a right to have that fundamental question posed and to have all of us speak on the question that should have been before Parliament.

I hope he comes in the House and says the same thing now, and I hope the government votes in support of this motion, as we will.

[Kevin Sorenson, Canadian Alliance, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member and his party for bringing forward their position.

For some individuals the debate today is about Iraq and the fact that Iraq must be disarmed. Others believe the debate today has more to do with the United States and its role in achieving the things it would like to achieve.

Personally, and from another perspective, I think the debate is more about the United Nations and the relevance of the United Nations after almost a decade of failing to bring forward, in a meaningful way, the directives that it has given in the past.

However the motion today is more about the leadership of Canada and its role, but more specifically, it is about Parliament's role.

I would question the member as to why, when he was in opposition, our current Prime Minister would stand in debate so solidly and so strongly for a vote in Parliament and now, when he is in a position of power, he almost pushes away Parliament and is fearful of what members may bring forward in a vote.

Would the member care to comment on that?

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, if I could answer that question I could answer why he reversed his position on free trade and why he reversed his position on the GST. However I cannot answer any of those questions. All I know is what he said on January 22, 1991. He said:

We on this side of the House believe that this resolution should have been brought to a vote before January 15, as was done in the U.S. Congress.

He was complaining about the timing of the vote, not the fact that he did not have one because the Conservatives gave him a vote.

On the member's question about the UN, I believe that what we are doing here puts the UN at risk if we do not do the right thing. At that time Liberal Lloyd Axworthy said “If all of a sudden we are beginning to deploy troops...beyond the clear definition provided by the UN, then we may also be in danger of undermining the opportunity of the UN to act”, and we must comply with the United Nations on this thing.