House of Commons Hansard #77 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was registration.

Topics

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:35 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to my hon. friend's comments and he brought forward a very practical, surgical-like dissertation on this issue.

He makes a number of very important points, not the least of which is that it is clear that it is pure, unadulterated politics that is driving the continuation of pouring money into this gun registry; gun registry being the issue, not gun control because there is no nexus whatsoever to gun control.

As my friend points out, first, there is no ability for the police to rely on this information. Second, there will be no participation by the Hell's Angels or others who might be so inclined to use guns for a criminal purpose. They will not forfeit their fingerprints before entering into somebody's house.

The practical aspect is that if in fact I took one of those same laser imprints and stuck it on this chair, my colleague from South Shore could still hit me over the head with it, even if that number was registered, even if it was punched into a computer.

I ask my friend, is there any real benefit, other than to bilk more money out of taxpayers and put more emphasis on face-saving than lifesaving, to the registry?

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Grant Hill Canadian Alliance Macleod, AB

Mr. Speaker, I actually do think there is a benefit in the firearms registry. The benefit is that the public has paid more attention to this issue since the funding has become evident.

Prediction is troublesome in this place but once again I predict that the Canadian public will ask for a review of this program. When will that occur? It will probably not occur from this debate nor the vote that will be taken tonight, but at the next election. That review, I believe, will be very interesting to behold.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Howard Hilstrom Canadian Alliance Selkirk—Interlake, MB

Mr. Speaker, I spent 30 years in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, 14 years as a uniformed officer in the rural areas and the other 16 years on proceeds of crime, which had to do with the drug business and with commercial crime.

Handguns have been registered for the last 50 years. I never saw one case that was solved, any of the murders that happened in regard to the drug business or otherwise, by registered handguns.

The gun registry, in my opinion and from my experience, will do nothing to reduce crime in any significant way, but $1 billion sure would have helped those heart attack victims in my riding.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Grant Hill Canadian Alliance Macleod, AB

Mr. Speaker, that final comment gives me the opportunity to tell my other horror story about the gun registry.

I have a pistol and it was registered in my name. I could only take it from my home to the shooting club. Along came the registry and of course I registered that pistol. It came back that it was not registered as I thought it was even though I had gone through all the process. It looks like the pistol registry has somehow been lost.

As my colleague said, the registry of pistols has had no impact on the criminal misuse in Canada, but what would? Severe penalties for those who use a pistol inappropriately.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Keith Martin Canadian Alliance Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, when the former minister of justice put the bill forward I appeared in front of the justice committee as a witness and took apart the then justice minister's arguments piece by piece.

First, let us argue through the issue of public safety, which my colleagues on the other side argue very vehemently in favour of in the bill. Let us look at public safety.

The question is: Will the gun registry make our streets less safe or more safe? Let us look at the three parameters: the suicide rates, the criminal use of firearms and homicides. Let us first look at suicides. The then justice minister said that suicides would go down. I can tell the House that people contemplating suicide do not get a firearms acquisition certificate, do not wait for their obligatory background checks, and do not wait six months and then buy a rifle and blow their head off. That does not happen.

On the issue of the criminal use of firearms, as my colleague mentioned, criminals, who make up the bulk of the individuals who are using long guns in the commission of an offence, do not get the firearms acquisition certificate nor do they take the course. Most of these weapons are actually smuggled in from the United States and are used to commit those offences. The problem is that in the judicial system the penalties are not being applied. Often times weapons offences are plea bargained away or are run concurrently, not consecutively. Therefore, to use a weapon in committing a criminal offence does not often result in much of a penalty.

On the issue of homicides, if we look at Statistic Canada's own facts, we know that between 1993 and 1997 the homicide rate from long guns and handguns in Canada went down. The reasons were multifactorial, but what we can clearly say is that the gun registry had absolutely nothing to do with the decline in homicides due to firearms in Canada.

If we were to look at the international experience, it would be impossible for us to find one example in the world where a gun registry has worked to decrease homicides, to decrease criminal activity or to decrease suicides.

We are as committed as members of the government to making our streets safer. When I have discussed this with members on the other side it has been asked what the price of a life is, that if we spend a billion dollars to save one life that is money spent on a worthwhile endeavour. I would argue that there is something called opportunity costs. In other words, if we put our money in A versus B we had better get more effect in A rather than in B.

The fact is that if we are going to spend a billion dollars on a gun registry are we going to save more lives putting it there or putting it into prevention, such as preventing fetal alcohol syndrome, fetal alcohol effects, ensuring that children have proper nutrition and giving the police forces the tools and the enforcement powers to go after those individuals who are using weapons in the commission of an offence?

This party is firmly on side with making our streets safer but which ever way we look at the facts, and we are arguing about the facts, this gun registry will not make our streets safer, and we have offered solutions to make our streets safer. We certainly hope the Minister of Justice will work with us to employ those methods of prevention, treatment and stronger enforcement penalties for those criminals who are using weapons in committing offences.

SupplyGovernment Orders

5:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

It being 5:46 p.m. and today being the last allotted day for the supply period ending on March 26, 2003, it is my duty to interrupt proceedings and put forthwith any question necessary to dispose of the business of supply.

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

March 25th, 2003 / 5:45 p.m.

Parry Sound—Muskoka Ontario

Liberal

Andy Mitchell Liberalfor the President of the Treasury Board

moved:

Motion No. 1

That Vote 1b, in the amount of $68,457,029 under JUSTICE--Department--Operating Expenditures, in the Supplementary Estimates (B) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2003, be concurred in.

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

5:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

5:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

5:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

5:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

5:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

5:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

All those opposed will please say nay.

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

5:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

5:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

5:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Call in the members.

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

6:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

John Williams Canadian Alliance St. Albert, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I know we are about to vote on something extremely important, which is another $59 million for the gun registry. I would like to ask the President of the Treasury Board, can she assure us that if she gets the money today, we will never get to the $1 billion on the registry?

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

6:10 p.m.

The Speaker

I think the hon. member for St. Albert, who is a very experienced member, knows that he cannot ask questions under the guise of a point of order.

(The House divided on Motion No. 1, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

6:20 p.m.

The Speaker

I declare Motion No. 1 carried.

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Steckle Liberal Huron—Bruce, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I want it noted that I was in the House for the vote just taken, but I have chosen to abstain from that vote.

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

6:20 p.m.

The Speaker

The hon. member knows that we do not record abstentions under the proceedings of the House. He is free to vote or not as he wishes.

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Rose-Marie Ur Liberal Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I want the House to note that I was in my seat, but I abstained from the last vote.

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

6:20 p.m.

Westmount—Ville-Marie Québec

Liberal

Lucienne Robillard LiberalPresident of the Treasury Board

moved:

Motion No. 2

That Vote 5b, in the amount of $9,048,840 under JUSTICE—Department—Operating Expenditures, in the Supplementary Estimates (B) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2003, be concurred in.

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

6:20 p.m.

The Speaker

The next question is on Motion No. 2. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Supplementary Estimates (B), 2002-03Government Orders

6:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.