House of Commons Hansard #88 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was embryonic.

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Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

Tom Wappel Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak to Bill C-13 today. It is a very important subject matter and one that is not to be trifled with and one that is not to be decided lightly.

I will begin my analysis of the bill by dividing it into two steps. First is the analysis of the process by which we have arrived here. Second is an analysis of the substance of the bill.

As I proceed with my remarks the House will see that for a variety of reasons I will be unable to support the bill. I want to explain those reasons because, in my view, this is truly a very important bill in respect of the dignity of the human person.

I will begin with the process. I find the process that the bill took objectionable for four particular reasons. I would like to discuss each of those four reasons in some detail.

First, there are two aspects to the bill. Of course I am simplifying what is an extremely complicated bill. Some parts, in my opinion, one cannot understand unless one is a scientist or medical doctor. However, I am a legislator and a lawyer and certainly I can understand the legislative and legal aspects of the bill. One aspect of the bill is that it would prohibit certain activities, in this case cloning, and another is the portion which deals with the regulation of certain aspects of this particular medical practice.

When the bill was first being discussed by the then minister of health, now the Minister of Industry, there was a great deal of discussion, certainly within our caucus, as to the nature of the format that the bill should take. A lot of members of Parliament very strongly urged the minister to, in effect, split the bill so that there would be a separate bill dealing with cloning and another bill dealing with regulated activities.

I can say, with as much certainty as one can have, that if that advice had been taken and a bill had been brought in to prevent cloning simply by itself, leaving all regulated activities to another bill, that bill undoubtedly would have sailed through the House of Commons, likely in record time.

I do not say this simply because I am pulling something out of the air. I want to bring to the attention of the House the act in the United States that did just that. It could not be shorter unless it was a joke. It is really two sentences and a maximum of a couple of pages. Basically, it prohibits human cloning, end of story. It has very few sections but it is very clear. I will get back to the definition of human cloning a little later in my remarks but it defines human cloning very clearly and broadly as follows:

The term 'human cloning' means human asexual reproduction, accomplished by introducing nuclear material from one or more human somatic cells....

I underscore the words “or more”.

It could have been done. It has been done in the United States. There would have been no reason not to do it. One has to ask why it was not done. Why was a bill not presented to ban human cloning and then another bill presented dealing with regulated activities?

My speculation, as a member of Parliament, is that it was done to either entice or coerce. I will let members choose the word they wish to use. Members of Parliament who had great difficulty supporting certain aspects of the regulated part of the bill were reluctant to not vote for the bill because it also bans human cloning. We would be left with a situation where if we were to vote against the bill, because there were parts of it with which we could not agree in terms of the regulated aspect, we would also be voting against banning human cloning. How can we do that?

On the other hand, if I were to vote for it I would be banning human cloning, which is something we all want, but I also would be literally approving parts of the bill with which I cannot live. That was a very difficult thing for me to deal with. Because the bill was proceeded with in that way, for me that was strike one on the issue of process.

The previous minister of health, currently the Minister of Industry, asked a question of the health committee. I am not a member of the health committee but I commend its members for their work on the bill. It was an onerous task over many months. The minister asked the committee to examine a bill prior to second reading and make certain recommendations.

The health committee took that request very seriously and travelled across the country to hear witnesses who had many interesting and important things to say about the bill. The committee debated and basically did what the previous minister of health, now the Minister of Industry, wanted it to do, which was to examine the bill and present a report for the minister's consideration.

Sure enough, that was exactly what it did. The health committee requested a comprehensive government response to that report within 150 days. That is not unusual because if we look at Standing Order 109 it states:

Within 150 days of the presentation of a report from a standing or special committee, the government shall, upon the request of the committee, table a comprehensive response thereto.

It is not “may”. It is not “can”. It is “shall”. It is mandatory under our rules that the government, when requested, shall table a comprehensive response to the committee report in the House of Commons. Did that happen? No, it did not.

If we look at Marleau and Montpetit at page 886, under the subject “Government Response”, the learned authors state:

Speakers have consistently refused to define “comprehensive” in this context, maintaining that the nature of the response must be left to the discretion of the government.

That is fine. I have been in this place 14 years and I have enjoyed every minute of it. In my experience on numerous committees I have never seen a request for a comprehensive response by the government either ignored or, as I see it in this case, toyed with by saying “Our comprehensive response to your considered report is another bill”. That to me is a slap in the face to the work of the health committee and to the people and witnesses who contributed to that work.

Why is a comprehensive government response required? It is because the committee made numerous recommendations. If the government did not like the recommendations it would have been incumbent on the government to explain. Therefore when the committee studied the new bill old ground would not need to be rehashed. The committee would know and perhaps even agree with the government's reasons for not agreeing with some of its recommendations. If the government agreed with some of its recommendations, then there would be no need to talk about those recommendations.

In this case, on the 150th day after the request was made, the government tabled Bill C-13. That is not a comprehensive response by any definition in my opinion as a member of Parliament.

Marleau and Montpetit goes on to state:

The Standing Orders do not provide for any sanction should the government fail to comply with the requirement to present a response.

That is true. There is no sanction in the rules. However if we believe the government, in ignoring what it is supposed to do under our rules it has taken away our ability in committee to enact proper legislation for the country. Therefore the sanction each and every one of us can use is to vote against the bill and send a message.

Because the government did not table a comprehensive response to the committee report, that is, for me, strike two on process.

When Bill C-13 was called, it is my understanding that the present Minister of Health at no time appeared before the health committee to discuss the bill or its predecessor under the subject matter of the bill. I am not talking about an idle question or two when the minister appeared for estimates. I am talking about a minister of the crown appearing before a health committee, presenting the bill after it has been passed at second reading, discussing the issues, encouraging the committee to make whatever amendments it wishes to make or do whatever study it wishes to do, answer responsible questions of committee members and then allow the committee to proceed with its work.

When I have been on committees where legislation has been presented the ministers have appeared. I do not know whether the committee asked the minister to appear. If it did not it should have. It is inconceivable to me that a committee would proceed with a bill without asking a minister to appear to defend the bill. Let us assume the committee did and if it did then the minister did not appear despite being requested to do so. That is wrong.

If the committee did not ask the minister to appear that also is wrong but the minister should have appeared of her own volition. If one believes strongly enough in a bill one should be there to defend the bill in front of the committee. That to me, on process, is strike three.

After considerable study, the bill went through the health committee which made numerous amendments. One presumes that those amendments were thought out, debated, perhaps even hotly debated, a consensus eventually arrived at, and the bill was brought forward to the House with the committee amendments. What happened?

The government immediately filed amendments to negate the amendments that the hard-working committee brought forward and, for all intents and purposes, offered, certainly to me, very little guidance as to why I, with my limited knowledge of the bill, should overturn amendments thoughtfully brought forward by the health committee simply because the bureaucrats in the Department of Health did not like it. That is the wrong way to approach a bill. It has happened numerous times and I am sick and tired of it.

If there is some reasonable reason for a committee amendment to be overturned then let us hear in debate from the government why it should be overturned. We are being accused in the media all the time of being trained seals, getting up and doing what we are told. That is not true and it certainly is not true on this bill.

The government wants to overturn amendments thoughtfully brought forward by the health committee. It has happened with the environment committee and the justice committee, and it should stop. If the government wants to continue doing that then it had better provide reasoned responses as to why, not just a blanket statement saying that this is not required. That is, for me, strike four on process.

To go back to a comprehensive response, if the government had tabled a comprehensive response when I originally talked about it, some of the amendments might not have even come forward because the explanations would have been there. It is a self-defeating thing for the government not to provide a comprehensive response. That is four strikes on process alone, never mind the substance of the bill.

Let us turn to the substance of the bill. It is a complicated bill. I am not a scientist but we are legislators. We are required to pass this act. The bill reminds me, and I will paraphrase, of the example of a camel being the result of a committee being asked to design a horse.

The bill is a combination of clauses drafted by the Department of Justice, by the Department of Health and by scientists. It is a hodgepodge. It is very difficult to understand. As a lawyer, I look to certainty of wording and that is what I want to talk about. Let us look at the actual bill and the words therein. I do not need to go very far into the bill in order to demonstrate what I am talking about. Let us look at the definition of embryo:

“embryo” means a human organism during the first 56 days of its development--

Human organism is a new concept. Notice that it does not say “human being”; it says “human organism”. At least for once in our statutes we are actually acknowledging that upon conception, the product of conception is human. At least that is in the bill. It is human on conception; it is a human organism.

What is the bill going to do? It will allow experimentation on humans. I cannot agree with that. In any event, at least there is a definition. It says that an embryo is a human organism during the first 56 days of its development. What a human organism is after 56 days of development is another matter.

We then go to clause 5, prohibited activities. It says, “No person shall knowingly” and it goes through a number of prohibitions, many of them using the phrase “human being”.

Human being is not defined. Why is human being not defined? Because there is a logical disconnect. It makes sense that there is a logical disconnect because we get into the issue of life and when life begins.

The minister says there is no need to define “human being”, that it is well defined in case law and therefore there is no need to define it in the statute. This is the same minister who, when she was minister of justice and I brought forward a bill to put into statute the definition of marriage as the union of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others, said to me, “Oh yes, the government supports that concept. It is clearly defined in case law. We do not need to enshrine it in statute because the common law recognizes what marriage is”.

What has happened is that advice that was given to that minister and previous ministers and subsequent ministers by the Department of Justice is wrong. It has been proven wrong. One or two judges on one or two courts can change 150 years of case law just like that. That is exactly what has happened.

All of the lawyers who gave that advice to those justice ministers that it does not need to be put into statute should be fired. Those lawyers should try and make their living on the streets because by giving that kind of advice they would starve to death.

If the government cannot define marriage because it is defined in case law and it will never change, and a year later we are into a huge discussion of what marriage is, can we imagine what the definition of human being is? In fact, there is a definition of human being and it is in the Criminal Code. The definition of a human being is:

A child becomes a human being within the meaning of this act when it has completely proceeded, in a living state, from the body of its mother, whether or not it has breathed--

A child is not a human being according to the Criminal Code until the child is right outside its mother.

What does that mean? That means for example, in the bill a person cannot for the purpose of creating a human being make use of any human reproductive material. What if a person does not want to make a human being? What if someone just wants to make a human organism? Then there is no prohibition.

What about clause 5(1)(g):

--transplant a sperm, ovum, embryo or fetus of a non-human life form into a human being;

What if a person does not want to be transplanted into a human being as defined which is coming out of the mother's womb? What if a person wants to transplant it into something just before it comes out of the mother's womb?

There has to be a definition. Words have to be tied up. It is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that the common law will cover the term “human being”.

I did not think I would talk for 20 minutes and I am shocked that I did. However, I think I have given enough reasons that the bill has to be defeated.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Colleagues, a friendly reminder that cell phones are not allowed in the House.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rob Merrifield Canadian Alliance Yellowhead, AB

Mr. Speaker, while my hon. colleague talked for 20 minutes, I think he just nicely warmed up the subject. He could have gone on for another 20 minutes and still not reached the depth of the material that is there.

As committee members we worked on this very intensely over the last two years and with great frustration as he described. We have been ignored as a committee. The recommendations coming from the committee over the last two years have been completely overlooked on at least four different issues.

The hon. member talked of strikes one, two, three and four. I can give him strikes five, six, seven and eight as to why this piece of legislation should not be allowed to proceed. One is the recommendations on surrogacy. Another is the regulatory agency. Another is the embryo and what that changes as far as the ethics of a nation. Another is donor anonymity.

Would my hon. colleague comment on some of those issues that he did not have enough time to comment on? Would he explain his views to the House on those issues?

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

Tom Wappel Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

Mr. Speaker, I will address some of the issues the member spoke to as I know he has worked hard on the bill.

In the bill “human clone” is defined as being obtained from a single--living or deceased--human being, fetus or embryo. In the United States “human clone” is defined as meaning:

--human asexual reproduction, accomplished by introducing nuclear material from one or more human somatic cells--

This is a huge difference and any scientist will tell us that. This means that the current definition of human clone in the bill would not prohibit the following techniques of human cloning: pronuclei transfer, mytochondrial transfer, and DNA recombinant germline gene transfer.

That is enough reason to say that we have to have some precision in the bill. Why were the same words not used in the Canadian bill as were used in the American bill? It at least would have provided some consistency across North America. If we are going to say “single”, then why not say “single or more”? What possible harm could there be?

The bill is the personification of the commodification of the human being. We are paying people to be surrogate mothers. I cannot support experimentation on human organisms. I cannot support that Frankenstein-like concept. It is ghoulish. I cannot support the commodification of the human being.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rob Merrifield Canadian Alliance Yellowhead, AB

Mr. Speaker, I agree with my hon. colleague specifically when it comes to the idea of surrogacy.

One amendment came forward with regard to opening up the whole area of surrogacy which would allow not only the payment of expenses but also the payment for loss of salary. It opens this whole area up to commodification beyond anything the committee ever dreamt of. In fact, it was one of the things the committee was concerned about. Committee members were unanimous that this not be allowed to happen. However, this was overturned by the House in an 11th hour amendment at report stage. It is unbelievable.

The most important part of the bill is the regulatory agency. The regulatory agency will regulate this issue into the 21st century and beyond. The individuals who sit on that agency are very important.

I wonder if my colleague has the same concern as I do regarding the regulatory agency and the power of the minister to control it and to determine who sits on it. I do have some discomfort with regard to the amendment that was overthrown, which passed by a vote of 116 to 114 at report stage. This allows the individuals to have a conflict of interest while sitting on the agency.

I wonder if my colleague could comment on that.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

Tom Wappel Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

Mr. Speaker, with regard to the regulatory agency Patrick Taylor, MD, professor emeritus at the University of British Columbia's faculty of medicine and a past director of the infertility clinics at the University of Calgary and University of Manitoba, wrote an article wherein he called the bill a bad bill. Some of his reasons I agree with and some I do not agree with.

About the regulatory agency he said:

Now to this add some of the provisions of Bill C-13.... An assisted reproduction agency is to be established. On the principle that, “War is too important to be left to the generals”, there are no provisions for any representation on the agency's board from the physicians, nurses and scientists who are experts in the field nor from those most directly affected--the infertile. Yet this board will regulate almost all infertility care and research in Canada. Treating the infertile is no less a reputable medical procedure than caring for the victim of a heart attack. Would you like to have a lay cardiology agency dictating how much and what kind of care you could have if you suffered a heart attack?

Perhaps it is an overstatement, but it is food for thought.

A lot of Bill C-13 simply ignores legitimate concerns of a lot of stakeholders. It is not necessarily appropriate at the last minute to try to change various specific parts of a bill, although it is always a good attempt. These things should have been noticed by the government and the bureaucrats who advise the government. They should have made either the changes or a proper reasoned, debated case for why they rejected the changes.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rob Merrifield Canadian Alliance Yellowhead, AB

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to ask these questions because they are very important. My question is about the amendment we put forward on donor anonymity and on which my hon. colleague has not had an opportunity to comment.

The idea is that when an egg or sperm is donated for the purpose of reproducing, we have to allow the ability of the child produced from that to know where he or she came from and understand who his or her genetic parents are. In Canada somewhere between 1,500 and 2,000 children are born this way every year.

It is unbelievable that this piece of legislation is now protecting the parent rather than providing opportunity for the child. It gets the principle wrong. The principle is that the child must be protected and if the House will not protect the interests of the child, who will? The next person who has to be protected is the parent, and then the science and the researchers. In this area of the bill, it changes that paradigm so that it protects the parent above the child. The bill gets it completely wrong.

I am wondering if my hon. colleague would comment on his perspective of the idea of donor anonymity.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

Tom Wappel Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

Mr. Speaker, in my early days of practice I used to facilitate adoptions. One of the key things I felt was very important was to give as much information as possible about the biological parents to the adoptive parents because of the potential for future diseases and things that the child, and indeed the adoptive parents, should know or should be aware of. It is very important that we know as much as we can, and that the child know as much as the child can, about the products of conception.

I am not on the health committee but I have been told something which I cannot confirm, but just having been told this was enough to shock me. It was my information that some infertility clinics in Canada are getting, or were getting and maybe still are, their sperm from United States prisons. The prisoners are donating their sperm at $25 a shot, if I can put if that crudely. It is shipped up here, of course with complete anonymity, and that sperm is being sold to various clinics for a substantially greater amount of money.

That may not be true, I do not know. I think the matter was raised in the health committee. It may not be true, but simply because it was raised, I wonder how many Canadian infertile couples would be happy to know that there is at least a possibility that the sperm donor is a prisoner in an American prison.

It is beyond me that one would not want to have as much information as possible available to the child about the product of conception, how that person was conceived, and what the DNA factors were of that person.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Larry Spencer Canadian Alliance Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak to some of the issues surrounding Bill C-13. I want to speak in a fairly broad sense, not being a lawyer like our hon. colleague across who just spoke in a passionate and honourable way in addressing the bill.

I want to speak about the feelings and concerns I have heard from my constituents. These are based around moral attitudes, perhaps even with a religious base, but nonetheless they are valid considerations to enter into this argument.

In fact, this bill is so divisive because there are those who have these particular moral views and those who do not have that same type of view. We are not taking into consideration all the information if we do not take into account what the people in our ridings are feeling. They have demonstrated this over and over with the numerous petitions that have come through this place requesting that we emphasize post-natal stem cell research rather than embryonic stem cell research. Thousands of names have been added to those petitions that have come through this place. I may remind members of that more than once as I talk about the bill.

I support assisted human reproduction and stem cell research. I would support a complete ban on cloning, whether it be reproductive or therapeutic. I would support a ban on animal and human hybrids, which is taking a human egg and adding animal sperm. Sex selection, buying and selling embryos, and paid surrogacy are all dangerous steps that need to be banned.

I am not sure the bill adequately bans any of those and the hybrid human is one example. It is quite a familiar sight when we look at comic books or some of the entertainment features that are being published in today's world where there are mutations for the kids to watch. I think of the ninja mutant turtles where they not only took on humanistic characteristics, but some of the characters were part animal and part human. We find those examples going back in history. However, this is a dangerous area for us to get into and we should be sure that is banned altogether.

I support the recognition that the health and the well-being of children born through assisted human reproduction should be placed ahead of the interests of adults, physicians or researchers involved. We talk about doing things in the best interests of the children and we talk about that in the Divorce Act and in other places. Surely, if we are talking about assisted human reproduction, we can remember to take note of the interests of the children who are being produced and put them ahead of the interests of those involved.

Sometimes the reproduction of a human being is only incidental to what a researcher hopes to gain from the research. We live in a world that is selfish, where so many are willing to sacrifice the lives of other people in order to see their lives enriched in some way, whether it be by finance, fame or whatever. I believe we need to place the interests of adults and researchers involved as subordinate to those of the children who may be born by this process.

I support the protection of the uniqueness of all individuals, their right to life and human dignity. We come into this world with little enough dignity. We come in naked and penniless and will go out that way unless someone dresses us, cleans us up, and puts us in a fancy box. Human dignity is something that must be maintained and valued. To materialize or commercialize the making of embryos, whether it be for research or whether it be an overproduction of embryos, even for assisted human reproduction in a legitimate sense, goes beyond what I would like to see happening. I know that it is being done already.

We hear of multiple births. We hear of quintuplets, sextuplets and numbers of children being born and then without fail it is discovered that these are people who have been working with some fertility drug or some assisted human reproduction process of some kind. What we are not told is how many embryos were created that were left over and/or frozen, and/or disposed of in some way. This bill opens the door to that and, therefore, we lose the respect for human life and dignity when we commercialize these products.

I support the right of all persons to know the identity and the necessary biological information of their birth parents. I have already mentioned that we tend to be somewhat selfish. As the hon. member across the way pointed out a moment ago in his speech, it is extremely important for children to maintain the right to know their biological ancestry and to know the biological information concerning any disease that might have been in their family. This bill falls far short of that.

The selfishness to allow someone to profit, as in a $25 per shot deal, and not require the identity of that person is beyond me. No matter what form that takes, any donors who are willing to contribute to an assisted human reproductive process need to subordinate their desires to that of the children being born. We must take responsibility as adults for these children who will be born.

There are some common errors made in the arguments and ideas propagated by the proponents of embryonic stem cell research. Let me talk about the defence based on the opinions of people who do not believe in or do not hold any absolute principles of right or wrong. We find many times that people believe everything is relative. Simply because the human reproduction process is interrupted early in its life does not mean it is not a human being. It is, in fact, being hijacked and used in some other way. It does not mean that it is right simply because that human being has not yet seen the light of day or has not yet exited a mother's womb, as the Criminal Code requires.

We know that people hold to this idea that there is no such thing as right and wrong. There are thousands of people in this country who disagree with that. There are right and wrong principles. There are things that are right and there are things that are wrong. Just because, as human beings and because of our education and technology, we are able to interrupt the processes of life does not mean it is right.

I am thinking of the story that I heard recently people who challenged God on creating life. They decided to have a contest. So God said, “Okay. I did this from dirt”. The contestants said, “Okay. We will do it from dirt too”, and they began to gather up some dirt. God said, “Wait a minute now. You've got to get your own dirt”.

We are gathering up the particles that we did not create and then we are claiming the right and the ability to create life from these particles. I do not think that is right. We are interrupting a process that comes from somewhere else. I think there is an origin of right and wrong.

Every day in the House, as institutionalized and formalized as it is, we take a little bit of time at the beginning to acknowledge God. If God exists we would presume that God would have the power to create.

On Wednesdays we sing O Canada as we address the flag. As we sing “God, keep our land...”, we are acknowledging daily, even in this place, that there is a power that goes beyond us. That is where moral authority comes from.

It is wrong to create a life, or put together the ingredients in any scientific way, solely for its destruction or for the benefit of another. No matter what we say, those components that are put together were not created out of nothing by us. We took what is already here and put it together. To do it for our benefit and for its destruction should be absolutely wrong.

Embryonic stem cell research requires the intentional death of innocent human life. It should be an absolute. It is an error to ignore the genesis of human life or to ignore the right of all human life to be protected from harm and death as much as possible. It is an error to believe that the embryo is a potential human life. An embryo is human life with potential. We sort of reverse things once in a while and to make it sound better.

For example, notice how we say human embryo. We say human fetus because that makes the subject an embryo. It makes the subject a fetus and only the modifier is human.

I want to remind the House that when we talk about a wagon we talk about a red wagon, particularly in the English language and this may be different in the French language which has a different structure. In English we talk about a white elephant, a baby elephant, but we do not talk about an embryo human, a fetus human, or a baby human. We reverse those so that the subject is not human.

A former member of the Royal Commission on New Reproductive Technologies stated:

The human embryo is a human individual with a complete personal genome, and should be a subject of research only for its own benefit....You and I were all embryos once. This is not an abortion question. When an embryo is not physically inside a woman, there is no possible conflict between that embryo and the life situation of anyone else. There are many across the spectrum on the abortion question who see the embryo as a human reality, and hold that to destroy it or utilize it as industrial raw materials is damaging and dehumanizing, not only to that embryo but to all human society.

That sums up what I wanted to say about that idea.

I will now address the fourth error. I believe it is an error to place the emphasis on embryonic stem cells when the scientific evidence points to postnatal stem cells as showing more promise without the ethical problems of embryonic stem cells and without the same problems of recipient rejection.

I am no expert on this subject but I understand that no one has ever been cured or helped from any disease by any embryonic stem cell. However I understand there are quite a number of people, and the number is continually growing, of those who have been helped by the implantation of postnatal, that is adult stem cells into their bodies.

I have a few personal conclusions to make. First, embryonic stem cell research should be avoided at this time. It is ethically controversial and it is strongly opposed by large numbers of Canadians, as is demonstrated by the tremendous volumes of petitions and signatures that have been tabled in the House.

Second, postnatal stem cell research should receive our complete focus for both medical and ethical, that is moral, reasons. If this has the greater potential, as science indicates at this point, why would a responsible government not give at least a three year moratorium, which the official opposition has asked for, on embryonic stem cell research and allow the postnatal adult stem cell research to develop as it should so there is not competition here? I believe it is because some people simply do not want adult stem cell research to win out over embryonic stem cell research, actually because that leads to life. It would be life-giving and the embryonic is not.

Third, a human life should be respected and protected in whatever stage it is observable. The dignity of human life must be preserved. Of all that we do for convenience and technological advancement, we do not do ourselves any favours, nor do we do our children down the line any favours, if we continue to allow the erosion of the dignity of the human being.

The fourth conclusion is that the truth about scientific and medical facts around stem cell research must be recognized and given without misrepresentation. It is unfortunate that such an emphasis on embryonic stem cell research has been put out there. It is made to sound almost as if people will die like flies if we do not sacrifice some embryos. That is not a good representation of the scientific truth.

Fifth, the rights of any child born because of assisted human reproduction should supercede the rights of any donor. Children must have the right to know their identity and their family medical history. It is only fair to the children being born.

The last conclusion I have is that the recommendation of our minority report, which states that the final legislation clearly recognizes the human embryo as human life and that the statutory declaration include the phrase “respect for human life”, should be included and should be a part of everything we do in this field.

Assisted Human Reproduction ActGovernment Orders

April 10th, 2003 / 11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is with pride that I rise to speak to Bill C-13. The Government of Canada is providing much needed leadership by putting in place the legislative framework to ensure consistency in the measures governing assisted human reproduction for the one in six couples who have trouble beginning their families.

We hope the bill will finally lay to rest the fact that there have been charlatans, people who have preyed on some of our most vulnerable families in terms of promising them the world and delivering literally nothing.

The bill must go forward so that families trying to have a family can do so knowing that their safety, privacy and health will be taken into consideration, and that it will be conducted in a safe and ethical framework, which is what the bill does.

We must reaffirm the three objectives of the bill: to help couples build a family without compromising their health and safety; to prohibit unacceptable practices, such as human cloning; and to make sure that related research in infertility treatments and serious disease take place within a regulated environment.

It is imperative that all potentially beneficial research take place in a tightly regulated environment which is what the bill would do. The bill places Canada in line with the measures taken in many other industrialized countries. I think it is comprehensive, integrated and draws on the best practices and experiences from countries around the world. It is the result of extensive public consultation across Canada and it reflects a consensus on some of the most complex and challenging issues facing our society.

People must also understand, regardless of what commentaries have been made in the House, that the bill effectively bans cloning. The lack of scientific knowledge reflected in some of the speeches in the House was really upsetting to me. For people in the House to think that the bill does not prohibit unauthorized research on human embryos and that it would allow cloned embryos to be implanted in the embryonic stage and harvested, is just nuts.

The idea that we have parliamentarians talking about creating humans from mitochondria just actually lets us know that they have no idea of science. As I get to the end of my remarks, I want people to understand that it gives me some concerns about the need for a scientific understanding by members of any proposed agency for the conduciveness of the bill in terms of the research.

As a family physician I have always been impressed by the poignancy of the plight of the infertile couple. It is a medical problem, an emotional problem and a social problem but it is one of the few problems where people are told to get over it and forget it. However in my experience as a family physician, people cannot and do not get over it. The desire to have a family that is biologically related is huge. We need to ensure in everything we are doing in terms of progressive legislation that we do not have the unintended consequence of sending people, which is a normal instinct, underground or to the United States.

Ever since the royal commission's results came out I have had serious concerns about using the Criminal Code for issues regarding women and their bodies. I believe the Criminal Code should be used with respect to cloning and the scientists.

However, when it comes to the relationship between a woman, her physician and the specialists dealing with this, I have serious concerns about the donors in this bill. I personally will work on that as the bill goes to the Senate and in its review in three years.

It is interesting that the bill has had such a long gestation. I think Valerie Lawton's comprehensive article in the Toronto Star reminded us that the royal commission's report on reproductive technologies was titled “Proceed with Care”. It has been 10 years since that 1,300 page report resulting from consultations with 40,000 people and only now are we starting to fill that legislative void.

There is no question that the bill has been tough. As Ms. Lawton pointed out in her article, the opinions on the bill are sharply divided. The pro-lifers, the people who have trouble conceiving babies the usual way, children conceived in laboratories, ethicists, fertility doctors, sperm banks, researchers and the people suffering from diseases that could one day be treated or cured because of the research involving embryos, all have very different points of view. Therefore it has been very difficult to proceed in this way, to find effective compromises and a proper legislative framework.

It is important that the research on stem cells continue, both on embryos and on adult stem cells. I do not think one researcher in Canada has told us that we should not move forward vigorously on both files, that we cannot put all of our hopes on adult stem cells when it is very clear that at the present time there is so much promise in the embryonic stem cell lines.

We must continue to remind ourselves, as there has been this big debate around stem cell research, that the bill is actually about helping couples who need help. The bill is about assisted human reproduction. It is about creating a safe and ethical environment for couples having trouble getting pregnant.

It is important that this debate is around embryos that are left over after tormented couples decide they have had enough of an extraordinarily invasive and difficult time with in vitro fertilization, that they will not do any more cycles and there are a couple of eggs left over. It is, therefore, with their consent that they would, in this bill, be allowed to decide whether these embryos will go to the laboratory to be used to find cures for the difficult diseases like juvenile diabetes and muscular dystrophy, or whether that same frozen embryo goes into the basket. It is pretty clear. I think women and their partners have every right to choose whether those frozen embryos go toward saving lives and curing diseases.

As we look at the important parts of the bill and the overall benefits that exist in the bill, I want to comment on some of the issues that I hope will be dealt with in the Senate or at the review stage of the bill. We must realize that legislation such as this has to be made responsive and relevant to the emerging needs. The existence of an agency will help but, with the experience in England, the agency must be able to anticipate and move with the science, it must be able to comment and it must be able to regulate the emerging science.

I am a little concerned at the moment that the makeup of the agency precludes the people that know the most about this area. Patrick Taylor's op-ed piece in the Globe and Mail which says that war is too important to be left to the generals is a very interesting concept. Even members in the House have been so confused by the science. We need to ensure that the people on the agency have the scientific background to be able to interpret the information coming to them. Otherwise they will be at the mercy of the people briefing them when it comes to making those ever important decisions.

The infertile community is worried that the board of the agency could be constituted of people who do not understand what their problems have been. The reality is that a ban of gestational carriers or donors would mean that they would have to either go underground or go to the United States.

It is really important as we move on a registry that we move on the kinds of things that could really help. We must also have people who have had experience with adoption. In that way we can learn from their adoption experience and help couples move forward. There is a need for updated medical information in such a registry. We need the capacity to do this in an open way and in a way that will enable the tracking of genetic information and social information in terms of the offspring of the pregnancies.

I am worried about the word “mandatory” in reference to counselling which is in the bill. As a family physician who did a lot of this kind of counselling, I am worried for the couples who do not have a family doctor. I am worried about the capacity, even in a community like Ottawa, where there are only a couple of psychologists that are available. I am worried that we will pre-empt the ability of couples to get the help they need if we are too strict about the definition of counselling in the bill.

I am concerned in the interpretation that even couples who use their own eggs and/or their own sperm, in the technicality of the bill would be forced to go to counselling, even when the genetic material is their own. I am also concerned that anybody undergoing this sort of procedure in terms of assisted human reproduction would have to register in a registry even if it is their own eggs or their own sperm. I think that is an invasion of their privacy and I hope that will be dealt with in the regulations.

It is extraordinarily important as we move forward that the people for whom this bill is intended, the one couple in eight couples, feel they have been listened to. Some of the toughest moments in my practice have been when I have had to tell someone of a diagnosis that will mean they will never be pregnant, whether it was Turner's syndrome or cancer.

The double whammy of a bad diagnosis plus the inability to ever consider being pregnant cannot be emphasized too much. It is totally underestimated and is a huge secret in terms of the actual torment couples in our country go through. I have to think of when those women realize they are not pregnant again after all they have been through to try to have a pregnancy.

Husbands would sneak into my office without their wives knowing. They wanted me to know how tough it was on their wives, how tough it was on their families and how their wives were not able to function at work in the ongoing difficulty in trying to have their own biological children. It is very easy for people to say, “Get over it. Turn the page. Get on with your life”. That has not been my experience as a family physician.

I think that people who wanted to adopt would have adopted before going through the kinds of procedures that couples are going through, those who have chosen to try to have some sort of pregnancy of their own genetic line. It is not a luxury for these people. It is a medical problem they face. We as Canadians should support this extraordinarily important wish of these couples and help them to become parents and grandparents.

The bill is an important first step. I think it is comprehensive. I think it has done an important job in this legislative void. I think everyone will work to try to make it better both in the Senate and in its review in three years.

I also hope we will get the agency up and running as quickly as possible so that the much needed research is not delayed. I hope as Canadians we will start to have a better understanding of the extraordinarily large part of our society that is having trouble getting pregnant.

I will be proud to vote for the bill. I still hope that one day we can do a better job for the infertile community. I also hope that all members of the House will see how important this is and will get behind it and support the bill.

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11:25 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Colleagues, this is the second reminder this morning that cell phones are not permitted in the House.

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11:25 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

Mr. Speaker, there are so many little babies at the present time who are looking for homes, who need to be adopted. There is absolutely and unequivocally no way that the government or anyone sitting in the House should ever vote for this kind of embryonic stem cell research.

I cannot believe that anyone here in Canada would want us to do that to a little tiny baby. I look at the young people who come to the House every day and I think, if that had been the case, they may not be sitting here today.

If a couple gets married and wants to raise a child, there are all kinds of children out there to be adopted.

I cannot imagine why the hon. member would not vote against the bill and would vote in favour of it.

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11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Mr. Speaker, with due respect to the hon. member, as a family physician for 25 years, I can say that there are not tons of babies to be adopted. I will quote from Dr. Patrick Taylor, who said in the Globe and Mail :

Because virtually no babies are available through children's aid societies, private adoption fees are high, and international adoption costs more than $25,000. In a country that prides itself on egalitarian principles, such options are often out of reach for the average person.

There may be older children to adopt, but it does not matter because this is not about why not just adopt. This is about a couple who wants to have a child of their own biological genetic line, and the grandparents also want that, and they want to make sure that all possibilities to do this have been exhausted.

I implore the hon. member to try to find a baby to adopt in this country. There are difficult children in orphanages. There just are not babies. Why are Canadians in trouble in Guangdong province? They have been over there trying to adopt a baby from China. There are the babies in Romania as well. If it was easy to adopt here, Canadians would not be spending up to $40,000 to try to adopt.

The most insulting thing one could ask one of these couples is why they do not just adopt. I wish the hon. member for Saint John would have a private conservation with one of those couples and say that to their faces.

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11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, California has the snowflake program where one can adopt a surplus embryo. That might be a good compromise. People could actually have their own child.

The member raised some interesting points that I believe the Senate should look at. I support her in raising those issues, even with regard to the criminalization of some of those acts. I think it is an important issue. I do not think we did those subjects justice.

I would like to ask the member to cast her eyes upon clause 5(1)(c). I would like her opinion on it. It states:

No person shall knowingly for the purpose of creating a humanbeing, create an embryo from a cell or partof a cell taken from an embryo or fetus ortransplant an embryo so created into ahuman being;

I draw her attention to the first phrase, “No person shall knowingly for the purpose of creating a human being”. What if the person's purpose is not to create a human being, i.e., a born person? What if it is to do research, i.e., to create an embryo, to halt its development, to extract stem cells? Would not the member agree that this clause only deals with those items where the purpose is for the creation of a human being but would not cover, and would not in fact ban, the creation of embryos for research?

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11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am not as knowledgeable about the various clauses as the member for Mississauga South. However, I believe that throughout the bill it is totally prohibited to create an embryo for any other purpose than reproduction. I have been reassured from every legal opinion sought that it is well covered in the bill.

On the issue of criminal acts, as the hon. member knows, my amendments which did not pass in the House were to move all of the donor items, sperm, egg, as well as gestational carriers, from the prohibited part of the bill into the controlled act part of the bill because I did feel that it was totally possible to regulate it. It is less than 2,000 pregnancies a year in Canada. We could have done it in a regulation and with a licensed clinic. The doctors who did the work would be at a huge risk to lose their licences to practise medicine or lose the licence for their clinics.

I feel that the idea it actually is criminal, and to the people donating, or the couples themselves, is something that I have felt strongly about since the royal commission. I will continue to try to get it out of the Criminal Code.

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11:30 a.m.

Madawaska—Restigouche New Brunswick

Liberal

Jeannot Castonguay LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for her speech. As we know, there are embryos left over from the process of assisted reproduction. Obviously, with donor permission, the bill would allow research if that were acceptable. Some couples will opt for the other option, of merely allowing the embryo to thaw and to die.

The experts who spoke before the Standing Committee on Health in connection with Bill C-13 told us that embryonic stem cells and adult stem cells behave totally differently. They believe parallel research is necessary in order to learn more about how each cell functions. This could lead to health discoveries that would benefit mankind.

I would like to have the hon. member's opinion of the importance of parallel research using both of these cell types.

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11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is imperative that we proceed on both avenues of research. We cannot know which will bring the results that we all want in terms of the cures for these diseases. As a lot of members have said, even though adult stem cells do have some promise, there is no question that researchers themselves know the potential of embryonic cells to make all kinds of cells is imperative to moving forward on the kinds of disease entities that we need the most. We must go forward.

I will ask my hon. colleague this later but I do not think there was one stem cell researcher in Canada who testified and said that we should stop doing embryonic research because they were so satisfied with the progress they were making on adult stem cell. Every researcher to whom I have talked, even those researchers working in the adult stem cell area, are absolutely clear that we must proceed on embryonic research if we are to bring to fruition the kind of breakthroughs in the diseases we have.

I understand there was one researcher from the United States, from some religious college of something, who was found to testify differently. However I have every confidence that we must proceed on both kinds of research to get to the much needed cures.

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11:35 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

Mr. Speaker, I rise again in the House to speak against embryonic stem cell research. I am not opposed to adult stem cell research I am opposed to embryonic stem cell research. The number one issue is to put the child first, the parents second, research third, and it must be in that order. If we are to do it in that order, we will protect the child.

I received a little plastic baby in the mail, which I have outside. With that little plastic baby was a note that said we had to protect the child. I cannot believe anyone in the House would not want to protect that innocent little child. We are not opposed to the use of adult stem cells. They are used to treat Parkinson's, leukemia, MS and many other diseases. We are all in support of that. I feel very strongly that researchers should focus their efforts on adult stem cell research. I cannot understand why they want to go with embryonic stem cell research.

I talked about the adoption of children and the hon. member who just spoke said they could not find them. I do not what happens in Ontario or wherever she lives because in my riding of Saint John we have no problems. We have children who wish to be adopted, to have a mom and a dad.

When I was mayor of Saint John, one of my employees was waiting for a child. I called the province and helped her adopt a child. Not too long ago I was at a function. A young man who was with a lady came to me and said, “Elsie, this is the little baby you gave me”. He is about 10 or 12 years old now. There are all kinds of children across this nation who need a mom and a dad and we should focus in on that.

The idea that the fundamental principles of ethics are appropriately based on a consensus of interested persons who express their opinions in regard to moral choices rather than on the divine law is understood by human reason and is given in revelation. There is a failure to realize that a human being, innocent and possessing the inherent right to be protected and not killed or harmed in any way, comes into existence at the moment of fertilization of a human ovum by a human sperm. It is at fertilization, right at the beginning. People can say whatever they want. Those who wish to use embryonic stem cell research can say whatever they want, but that is the fact.

This fact was denied by those who promoted ESCR when they defined the beginning of life at implementation rather than fertilization, which is a minimum of seven days. If anyone saw that little plastic baby, no one in the House would ever harm a child. Human life begins at fertilization and anyone who says it does not is absolutely and unequivocally wrong.

We truly have a lot of work to do in the House. I look at the path we are going down. Every day I look up at the gallery and see all the young people present. We have with pornography and John Robin Sharpe. He is protected but the tiny children are not protected. We are doing it again. This should never be in the House of Commons. This should never be debated here. There is no reason in the world for any elected official in the House to be in favour of embryonic stem cell research. We are elected and when we are here, we are here to protect the unborn, that embryonic cell.

I just mentioned that when it comes to child pornography, then it come to this, I get so dismayed. When I was asked in 1993 to run for election, I was told I could do so much more for my people if I were on the Hill. I came here because I believed in the child. I believe in doing what is right. Sometimes I get so dismayed when I see what is passed in the House of Commons. I look at our young people and at those tiny babies. When I see those little tiny babies, I ask myself how could they take a cell and stop the birth of that child.

There is no question that we are in a high tech world and that we need lots of research. However adult stem cell research the way to go. No one is hurt with that. Researchers can do that. Why do they want to do research on embryonic stem cells? Will somebody in the House tell us why?

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11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Money.

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11:40 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

Yes, that is right. That is exactly what it is. There will be no negative debate on adult stem cell research, but there is a negative debate on embryonic stem cell research. We here because we believe in protecting the unborn. That is the way we have been brought up.

I cannot understand how anyone who is a doctor would be in favour of it. When the medical science is as advanced as it is in our age, there are times when we have to debate between what we can and what we should be doing, not what we are doing. That is exactly what we are doing here today.

I am truly concerned. Science and technology have given us a point of debate in this age old discussion. What we are debating today, with the amendments and the countless motions made by the members of the House related to this, is designed to regulate human reproduction, stem cell research and cloning. There is no way we should be into cloning at this point in time.

Problems have been outlined by Dr. Peter Andrews of the University of Sheffield, England who said, “Simply keeping human embryonic stem cells alive can be a challenge”. A Harvard University researcher has said, “In my view human embryonic stem cells would degrade with time”.

They can do the research they feel should be done with adult stem cells. However human embryonic stem cells have never been used successfully at any time in clinical trials. They have a lacklustre success in combating animal models of disease and carry significant risk including immune rejection and tumour formation.

We in the House have an obligation to ensure that each and every one of us has our voice heard to protect the unborn, to protect that little innocent child, to protect that little embryo that will become a child. I cannot believe we have to debate this. I have spoken two or three times on this. Living in Canada, which is known as one of the best countries in the world in which to live, I cannot believe we are allowing this to happen in the House of Commons.

If we continue in this direction we are not going to be looked upon in a positive way by other countries. We are going to be looked at in a negative way. There is a need for more voices every day to speak out against embryonic stem cell research. I honestly believe that those who are in favour of it have not done their homework. I will never, ever vote in favour, as long as I live, of allowing this to take place.

I thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, for the opportunity to express my feelings in the House.

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11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to sincerely thank the hon. member for the wisdom she brings to this place on so many issues. She spoke very eloquently about one of the most important issues that has come before this place since I have been a member of Parliament.

I have a comment. The House may want to know that it was reported in this week's press, on Monday I believe it was, that the U.K., which has been doing this research for over the last 10 years, is reported to have used 40,000 human embryos for embryonic stem cell research and does not have one reported case of success. I think that tells us what the dimensions of the issue are.

The member made some comments with regard to adult stem cells versus embryonic stem cells and the promise of that research. Notwithstanding that a physician rose in here and said no researcher ever came before us and said we should not do that, well, of course: the researchers all want something. Dr. François Pothier, in a round table before the UNESCO Friendship Group of Parliamentarians, said that the reason adult or non-embryonic stem cells are not as attractive is, in his words, that there is no money in adult stem cell research.

On June 21, 2002, it was reported in the research of Dr. Catherine Verfaillie that it had been found that stem cells from human bone marrow could be morphed to become virtually every cell in the human body. The member may want to comment on this. Dr. Alan Bernstein, president of the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, called it a beautiful paper. To conclude, he said, “...it looks like the minimum one can say is the old view...is going to have to be modified”, i.e. the fact that embryonic stem cells can do more than non-embryonic stem cells. He agrees.

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11:50 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

Mr. Speaker, as I stated, it is not the adult stem cell research we are opposed to but the embryonic. When they had 40,000 human cells in the U.K. and not one of them was a success, that is 40,000 children. We should just think about it.

For anybody who says there are not enough children to adopt and all of that, I have to say that we could use 40,000 more young people right here in Canada. We truly could, but we do not take their cells and say, “We are going to kill you because we are going to do research”. And then nothing happens. That is a living example right there in the United Kingdom that the embryonic stem cell research does not work. No one can prove to us, and no one will ever be able to tell me, that it does.

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11:50 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Roy H. Bailey Canadian Alliance Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Mr. Speaker, I wish to congratulate my colleague for her address to the House, and hopefully to millions of Canadians, which would be even greater.

I have just two quick points. The first is on adoption. I want to make it clear that I have suggested this. I have watched young people place their names on a waiting list. In some cases they have been able to adopt three children. There is a waiting list. Every time I have helped somebody or suggested this, there is a waiting list. Let us be clear about that.

Second, last night I was at the Forum for Young Canadians. Members know that I go around and take pictures with the group and so on. There was a small girl. She obviously had been crippled at birth. I went over to her, along with one of my colleagues from the Bloc, and I took the little girl's hand. She was able to walk. I took her picture. What thought do members think went through my mind? Members understand, and I think most Canadians understand, that this child was a delightful child. She was allowed to live. That is what life is all about.

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11:50 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB

Mr. Speaker, I have two grandchildren, one a young boy and one a young girl. When I look at them and think of the debate we have had, I ask myself, “How could anyone take their lives? How could anyone hurt these children?”

I want to say that in the 28 years since I became involved locally and in the House, debates like this one and the John Robin Sharpe case tug at my heart, and my family's as well. We cannot believe that here in Canada we would even allow this. These researchers are saying they want to do research. As my colleague on the government side has stated, they wanted to take 40,000 of these human cells in the United Kingdom, and none of them are successful. I wonder how many they want to take here. It will be more than 40,000.

Some day there will be no young college students in the gallery, no pages or the rest of them. Do we take their cells? No way. No way should this ever happen in the House of Commons or in Canada and no way should anyone in the House vote in favour of it.

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11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, we are advised by the experts that half of the embryos which are cryogenically frozen actually do not survive the thawing process, which makes the whole situation even worse. However, in the United States, the President's Council on Bioethics has been asked to pursue research on how we can store women's ova and not store fertilized ova. That way we would not in fact be creating human beings for storage. We would actually be storing and thawing only the ova. That research is getting there. Would the member agree that this would be a more logical approach rather than simply saying there are surplus embryos so we might as well use them for research?