Debates of April 9th, 2003

Iraq

[Stockwell Day, Canadian Alliance, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, on the question of political reconstruction with or without the UN, the Prime Minister is still not there.

Could he tell us this? He did not say anything about joining the allies to topple Saddam Hussein's regime. The statue has been toppled. The citizens of Iraq are dancing in the streets on that broken statue.

Will the Prime Minister tell us, because elements of the regime could still be there, does he still recognize the regime that is there or not?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have to see what will happen. At this moment there is some fighting that is going on. We are happy that the war is almost over. We are happy that the misery of the people of Iraq has been terminated. We have always said that Saddam Hussein should disarm.

However on the question of change of regime, we have always been very clear on that. That is a policy which is a very serious one. If we start, where do we stop?

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, with the changes that have occurred in the past few hours, a statement made by Canadian Commodore Roger Girouard, the commander of an international fleet in the Persian Gulf region, is taking on increasing importance. What he said was that he had no orders about what to do with any Iraqi dignitaries whom he might take prisoner.

Will the Minister of National Defence acknowledge that this admission that he would have to contact Ottawa to find out what to do if he takes prisoners demonstrates an unusual degree of improvisation?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, the statement by the commodore indicates that he is doing an excellent job for Canada and that, contrary to what the Bloc Quebecois and the New Democratic Party believe, there are two separate missions. That is what his words indicate.

If the Bloc does not understand that, let me quote an American. When asked by a Canadian reporter why would this key task force remain under American command, Brigadier General Brooks responded, “It's a different coalition and a different operation, and we always respect the prerogatives of countries involved”.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence is the one with the problem. When he does not understand that a commodore in charge of a fleet is concerned about the lack of orders in the event that he should take Iraqi prisoners, there is a problem somewhere.

Does the minister not understand that his attitude is one of ambiguity and is unacceptable in circumstances as tragic as those we are now witnessing?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, what the Bloc Quebecois has never understood—but now we have the commodore and the American general to back this up—is that there are two separate missions. Canada is involved in the war against terrorism; Canada is not involved in the war against Iraq.

Now, with verification of this by the commodore and by the American general, the Bloc Quebecois should finally get it, after all these weeks.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, regardless of what the Minister of National Defence says, by keeping ships in the Persian Gulf region, Canada has put itself in a situation of war and if Iraqis were to be taken prisoner—not Afghans, but Iraqis, as was the case in Afghanistan—the minister has told us, “we will see”. That is what I call improvising.

Will the Minister of National Defence tell us what orders he has given the Canadian military, particularly Commodore Girouard, with respect to the treatment of any prisoners of war the Canadian military might take in the war on Iraq?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, perhaps this is yesterday's question, because I just answered in light of the situation today, to the effect that it has now become very clear that Canada is not now, nor has it ever been, involved in the war on Iraq.

Therefore, the whole argument of the Bloc Quebecois has disappeared, and the question for today is not the question he just asked.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the argument of the Bloc Quebecois remains valid. We are saying to the minister that if Iraqis are taken prisoner, if our military stops a ship with Iraqis on board, Commodore Girouard has said today that he would not know what to do.

We are asking if these prisoners will be turned over to American or British authorities. Will they be sent to Guantanamo Bay or will they appear before an international criminal court, as we are proposing? If prisoners are taken, where would he have them brought to justice?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, the member may be aware that the House passed a resolution stating that the government should endorse international efforts to bring to justice Saddam Hussein and the other Iraqi officials responsible for these crimes.

Second, he should understand that it is a supremely hypothetical question in that the navy of Saddam Hussein was never much. It has virtually ceased to exist. Our ships are hundreds of miles away. The odds of this happening are extraordinarily low, and I can only conclude that this is the mother of all hypothetical questions.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, with the fall of Baghdad, we are wondering what comes next. The Bush administration is already sending troubling signals to other countries. Several times, the Prime Minister has said that his position on the war in Iraq has been clear for a year now.

Will the Prime Minister be clear today in saying that Canada will oppose another pre-emptive war?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, perhaps the member should wait for this war to be over before talking about another war. Canada's position has always been very clear on this issue: in order for activities to be considered legitimate, it is important that there be a resolution from the Security Council. However, the question is very hypothetical.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, perhaps the Prime Minister should tell Mr. Rumsfeld that hinting about other wars is out of order.

We want the Prime Minister to state that nobody is next. We also want the Prime Minister to say that he sees a role for the UN in the reconstruction of Iraq that is more than just providing food and medicine. We want the UN to be involved in more than that. Is that the Canadian position?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, it is our position. It is a position that we have discussed with the United Nations and with all of the governments involved, including the American government. I discussed that personally with some of the leaders as well.

We want the UN to be part of the reconstruction. I said that it cannot be done only by the UN. It does not want to be forced to do everything. There would be a role for everybody. All countries know that in terms of humanitarian services and reconstruction, Canada will always be pleased to play a positive role.

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, on or about March 23, Canadian Armed Forces were involved in searching the Iraqi ship Proton in the Persian Gulf.

While it was determined that it was not involved in smuggling oil or carrying al-Qaeda terrorists, gas masks and nerve gas antidotes were found on board. After the Canadians released the ship the Americans seized it and arrested its crew.

Can the Minister of National Defence confirm these details and will he table in the House today a copy of a situation report he would have received?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, I will have to get back to the hon. member on the specifics of that case.

What I can confirm in the House and as I have said before, if the navy suspects that any ship carrying whatever flag might be carrying mines, let alone chemical weapons, that could put in harm's way any of our allies, the navy will board that ship to prevent any damage taking place to the ships of any of our allies.

That is what it has been doing and that remains the position of the government.

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, given United Nations resolution 1441, has Canada followed through on its responsibilities and reported to the United Nations that its naval forces had discovered nerve gas antidotes and chemical masks on the Iraqi ship at sea? If not, why not?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, I just said in my answer to the previous question, I will have to get back to the hon. member on the specifics of that case and I will do just that.

Border Security

[Rahim Jaffer, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Revenue has repeatedly attacked the integrity of customs agents.

She calls them bank tellers and says they are nothing more than 3,000 accidents waiting to happen. She charges them with enforcing the Firearms Act, but refuses to arm them in order to carry out their duties.

Why will the minister not do what is right for the protection of Canadians and our border, and make security the priority of customs agents and not revenue collection?

[Elinor Caplan, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, while there may be a few gullible people who would think the member opposite is saying something accurate, those who look at the record would know that the facts are as follows. I have enormous respect for the integrity, confidence and dedication of our customs officers, and I have said so at every opportunity.

I have also said that their health and safety is a priority for us. I have talked about the policies of hot pursuit police chases as well as bank robberies, and that the common policy of putting safety first is the policy of CCRA.

[Rahim Jaffer, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Speaker, actions speak much louder than words. The minister has had a lot of time to give the resources to customs agents. She has failed on all counts.

CCRA policy is a flat refusal to engage in border security as the minister is more interested in having customs agents collect revenues. Customs agents are still advised to smile and wave at high risk travellers entering the country, and then call the police.

When will the minister reverse this short-sighted policy and pledge to make customs agents a proper security force with peace officer status?

[Elinor Caplan, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, Commissioner Zaccardelli has said very clearly that customs officers do not need guns. We have a report from the job hazard analysis where an independent expert has concluded that customs officers do not need guns.

If the member understood the important role that customs officers play, he would know they have the tools to do that job, and they are highly competent and respected. The member opposite would do well to stop acting as a lobbyist for the right wing gun--

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Mercier.

Iraq

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the people of Baghdad find themselves in an increasingly dramatic situation. The number of civilian victims is still unclear, but casualties are arriving by the hundreds in Baghdad's overflowing hospitals.

The World Health Organization has reminded the parties to the conflict of their obligation to avoid civilian casualties.

Is the government going to join with the international community in urging the coalition to do something about the serious humanitarian situation?

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, we are in regular contact with all of our allies. I was in Europe last week precisely to discuss the situation in Iraq.

Obviously, we all take the position that the number of innocent civilian victims should be kept as low as possible. We congratulate the Americans and British on the efforts they have made to reduce the number of innocent civilian victims in this conflict. They have made great efforts and we commend them for that.