Debates of Dec. 9th, 2004

Supply

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Madam Speaker, I am totally astounded at the response of the Liberal member opposite.

The Liberal government has been taken over by corruption, and all sorts of sleaze and allegations of wrongdoing. Most of which is now being proven as true. Among other things in our new budget, there is funding for an Ethics Commissioner, which unfortunately is necessary because of the lack of ethics on the other side. The Liberals are unfairly targeting rank and file members of Parliament instead of going after cabinet members, wherein lies the real power. That is where the investigations and accountability should be concentrated.

The government is using $3 million a year to run the office of the Ethics Commissioner. Apparently, spending a bit of money on an inquiry to find out why the fisheries department is not doing the right thing for the fishers, not only in British Columbia but across the whole country, is of no great consequence to the Liberal member. He thinks it is a waste of money. I would like my colleague to comment on the misplaced priorities of the Liberal government.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Madam Speaker, I agree with that. It might not be a bad idea if, in addition to an Ethics Commissioner, we also had a competence commissioner. It is the incompetence that we are talking about here most of the time, whether it be in immigration or in fisheries. It is about time we started to get some of these things right.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Madam Speaker, the government is doing everything it can to basically downplay the unmitigated disaster that we had on the Fraser River this year. The question that we just had from the Liberal member opposite demonstrates that the government will go to any length to pre-empt any independent look at how DFO is managing this resource in British Columbia. It is crucial to so many user groups and has a value of tens of millions of dollars on an ongoing basis unless we have a catastrophe like the one in 2004. It was and is a catastrophe that will continue to affect us in 2008, in 2012, and in 2016.

It is going to take a major effort. We already have tens of thousands of volunteers in our salmon enhancement programs in the province that are treated shabbily by the government. There is a lack of priority. There should be priority spending for those kinds of publicly popular, and very essential and necessary programs.

There is an attempt by government members to deflect the issue away from what is really our concern. Our concern is that we had 1.8 million, plus or minus, sockeye disappear above the Mission counting fence. Those fish had no commercial fishery on them once they were past that fence. What eventually reached the spawning grounds was less than what was needed for conservation reasons.

The Liberal member opposite wants to just talk about pitting user groups against each other. That is not what this is all about. We did not even meet conservation goals. That is how bad it is. Yet, we have bumph coming from the minister who is setting up a post-season review and talking about the entire south coast fishery, and downplaying what is an unmitigated disaster.

It is a complete frustration because this was totally foreseeable by DFO management, right up to the minister. I do not want to implicate the employees here because the employees are quite often and usually dedicated people who are trying to do the very best for the resource and they have their hands tied behind their back.

We have had problems on the Fraser River with the way the fishery has been managed in the past. Certainly, through the nineties, we had people looking at this issue to the point where the all party standing committee in 2001 made this a major push. It was finally able to table an all party set of recommendations. If the minister and the department had pursued those recommendations, we would not be here today talking about this disaster. It is most unfortunate. We sent the committee to British Columbia again last week, but we now have the government in full cover-up mode.

This is such a sad state of affairs because the real victims here are the resource and all of the resource users. When we do not meet conservation goals, there are no resource users. They are all in the same boat from the standpoint that, until we meet our conservation goals, no one is going fishing anywhere and anyone who does, if it is authorized by the government, is being most irresponsible. This is a very big deal indeed.

The B.C. Conservative members in this place certainly recognize what happened during this unmitigated disaster of a season. Several of us held a press conference, including the member for Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, on October 7. We talked about what needed to happen, not just with the Fraser River but with some of our salmon enhancement programs and other projects which are getting cut back by the government.

On November 17 the B.C. Conservative caucus called for a judicial inquiry. That is unequivocal. That is what we must have if we are going to get to the bottom of this. People are reluctant to talk, particularly people who work for the department, because they know there will be consequences if they talk and they are not in a protected status.

The day after we made that call the minister announced his post-season review which completely downplays this collapse. The minister has already tipped his hand. He has pre-empted the judgment of that post-season review. In the House on October 22, in responding to the member for Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, he said that record water temperatures caused the high mortality.

This is the old defence. This is where the government goes. It blames the weather and it blames the counting fence. We all know that those are not the least likely, but if they are contributing factors, they are certainly not the entire picture. We cannot pre-empt where a judicial inquiry would go and what it would find out.

Every fisherman on the coast whom I have talked to, aboriginal, commercial, and recreational, has a good idea of what happened on the Fraser River. Every employee of DFO, who had anything to do with the Fraser River management this year, has a good idea of what happened. We must have a non-threatening environment and an environment where people have no option but to tell the truth.

As my colleague stated earlier, “the truth will set you free”. What is it that the government and minister are trying to hide? There should be nothing scary at all about a judicial inquiry. It is a very serious piece of business, but the collapse of the Fraser River sockeye is a very serious piece of business for British Columbia. It is an issue that will not go away.

We have a systemic problem. I come from a riding that cares immensely about fish. Just this morning I received news from a government employee of DFO, who will not allow his name to be used, who has written a long piece to the local paper about what is happening in DFO. This individual wrote, “Most large corporations start at the top to do their restructuring. DFO starts at the bottom and we constantly hear from the minister there is not cutbacks or layoffs happening at DFO. This year alone there were 55 people handed their pink slips in the Pacific region”.

That is what is happening. We need this judicial inquiry. I hope we get all-party support for it. That is what British Columbians deserve. That is what the resource deserves.

[Shawn Murphy, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Madam Speaker, I agree with the comments of the member. This is a very serious issue. It is a concern to I believe everyone in British Columbia, and it should be a concern to everyone across Canada. We certainly heard that in the three days we were in British Columbia. This should be made a priority by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

As I said in my previous question, I do not accept the proposition that a judicial inquiry is the proper forum to carry this out. All it will do is give a forum for the commercial fishers to attack the members and leadership of the bands along the Fraser River. It will be public, it will be ugly and it will do absolutely nothing to resolve forever the issues on the Fraser River.

The committee sat for three very long days, to which the previous member will attest. We sat from 9:30 in the morning until about 7:00 every night, and we heard from a lot of witnesses. The committee received a lot of documentation. The committee deliberated on the issue and decided earlier today that the judicial inquiry was not the route to go. The Liberals do not have any majority on the committee. This was a vote of the committee.

After all the work that the House of Commons committee put into the issue, should the minister ignore the direction and wishes of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans on this issue?

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Madam Speaker, I believe that the fix is in. I am sure the Liberals on the committee voted against it. If they had supported, they would be calling for a judicial inquiry. It is that simple.

The majority of members from British Columbia come from my caucus. Virtually the entire rural portion of British Columbia is represented by my caucus. It is very ingenious of the minister to say that in a minority government, government members do not control the committee, but their votes are very meaningful. Their votes were not to hold a judicial inquiry. If they had voted yes, they would have combined with us and the standing committee majority would have recommended a judicial inquiry.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources]

Madam Speaker, the member did not answer the question, and I would like to ask it again. Should we ignore the fisheries committee recommendation?

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Madam Speaker, I just answered that question. Yes, I believe that for British Columbia, for British Columbians, for the resource and for the future, for 2008, 2012, 2016 when there will be in all likelihood no fishery, we cannot afford to lose another four year cycle. This has our user groups very concerned indeed.

We can follow the short term recommendations that will come out of the standing committee, but in the longer term we cannot have a repeat. We have lost one quarter of the fishery now. If we have another one, we will have lost a half, and that makes most of the fishing community uneconomic. Yes, it is crucial that we have this judicial inquiry. It is the only avenue by which we will actually get to the bottom of what happened.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Madam Speaker, I find it amazing that the government members are questioning opposition members about following committee recommendations. I have sat on many committees where there have been unanimous recommendations and the government has yet to act on them. It has been unacceptable practice.

However, I want to focus on one particular aspect, which is the difference between the independence of a judicial inquiry versus that of the business of Parliament. What are the particular benefits of having an independent judicial inquiry to help with this problem?

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Madam Speaker, the main benefit is gravity is brought to the situation because it is a judicial inquiry. It is also independent of DFO, which the other investigation is not, and DFO employees feel quite threatened. Those are the main things. Also, the findings from a judicial inquiry would carry that much more weight. Anything that is internal within DFO would probably be ignored and buried. That is the track record.

[Shawn Murphy, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Madam Speaker, as the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, I appreciate the opportunity to rise in this House today to say a few words about the salmon river fishery.

As I have stated before and as other members have stated, I just came back from three days of extensive hearings in Vancouver on the issue. We heard from many aboriginal fishers who were seeing their allocations decreased. We heard from a number of aboriginal fishers along the Fraser River. As I pointed out previously, I believe there are 91 individual bands along that river. We heard from the Pacific salmon panel. We heard from other individuals who had lived this issue their entire lives and seen the salmon come and go and the complexities of the whole salmon industry. Of course, we heard from the Pacific salmon commission chaired by a previous speaker, the Hon. John Fraser.

If I can say anything, it is that this issue is extremely complex and important to the people who live on the Fraser River and the people who fish salmon at the mouth of the Fraser River. It also is extremely important to everyone who lives in British Columbia.

I appreciate the concerns from the members opposite. As the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans does, I share those concerns about the state of the sockeye fishery in that province.

I come from a coastal community myself. I have seen the importance of a strong, sustainable fishery. Whatever discussion is held in this debate today, the primary concern, as we leave this chamber, has to be that the number one issue is the conservation of the resource and the sustainability of the industry for the generation of fishers and aboriginal bands out there now and for generations to come.

We heard in Vancouver that the importance was there for many reasons. It is not only economic, but it almost takes on a mythical issue. The Pacific salmon has a strong cultural significance and a long history in that province.

To give a little background, the commercial fisheries and aquaculture production in British Columbia are valued at nearly $630 million. That is close to one-quarter of the national total. The figure is significant and it speaks to the continuous strength of this sector in British Columbia despite, as we have heard, the challenges experienced in recent years. I do not wish to understate this issue for one second, but those challenges are significant.

The fishing industry in British Columbia is far different than the fishing industry a decade ago. Low market prices of certain species, a shifting abundance, conservation constraints and new harvest restrictions to protect endangered species have all left their mark on this industry. Nowhere have the challenges been greater than with salmon. In fact, when we look at some of the other species, such as halibut, the sablefish and herring, the management has been recently good and well structured.

Most fisheries in British Columbia are performing well, despite living through a decade of what I would refer to as fundamental changes, but salmon does remain the exception.

The challenges faced by this stock were especially felt during last summer's salmon fishery. Conservation challenges for the stock at risk, combined with limited opportunity to harvest more abundant stocks in harsh migratory conditions, took their toll on many stocks. In the face of these challenges, some are left with the impression that DFO is not doing its job, that salmon is not the priority it should be. I am here today to tell members that this is simply not the case.

Pacific salmon management, although complex, is a high priority for the department. The numbers tell the story. Each year DFO's Pacific region spends a total of $150 million for all fisheries management and science activities in Pacific Canada. This includes funding for stock enhancement, enforcement and science for a range of stocks, including crab, halibut, herring, groundfish, clams and other species that are fundamental to the overall success of Pacific fisheries.

Eighty million dollars, or nearly half the total of this budget, is spent on salmon alone. That $80 million is used to assess, evaluate, enhance, protect and manage salmon in the Pacific region. I should point out also that the largest part of that amount is directed to the area which is the most complex, most difficult and most challenging, and that is the Fraser River.

No other activity in the region and no other fishery receives a similar level of effort and resources. The Pacific region spends far less on managing the region's remaining fisheries even though the number of fisheries, depending on how the fishery is categorized, far outnumber the salmon fisheries.

I want this to be loud and clear: clearly the Fraser River salmon fishery is a priority for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. There is good reason for this. It has been said that managing the Fraser River fishery is perhaps one of the most complex fisheries management jobs in the world, if not the most complex. After spending three days there, I certainly can appreciate the complexity of this fishery.

Let us talk about what has happened over the past decade. As I have stated previously, there is a commercial fishery at the mouth of the Fraser River and there are 91 bands along the river. What has happened through cases that have been decided by our Supreme Court of Canada is that aboriginals of this country have a right to fish for food, social and ceremonial purposes.

That right has to be managed by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. That right is a very difficult and complex job for the department to manage effectively. Many Canadians, and probably some people in the House, suggest that this right should not exist, but I am not one of those Canadians. That is one of the reasons why this issue is certainly challenging. It is not simple.

From my hearing of the testimony, was there overfishing by commercial harvesters at the mouth of the Fraser River? The answer clearly is yes. Was there uncertainty as to the numbers that did pass the Mission counting station by use of an echo sounding device? The answer is yes. Was there serious overfishing by certain bands on the Fraser River? The answer is yes. Was it an extremely bad year for water temperatures and water flows, which would have caused serious mortality as the salmon migrated up the Fraser River? The answer is yes. Could the Department of Fisheries and Oceans perhaps have done a better job overall? The answer is probably yes, despite the efforts that it did make.

We have heard from a panel of eight employees of the department in Vancouver, and these employees are certainly committed to the salmon industry. They are committed to the Province of British Columbia. They are committed to the conservation of this resource. I was very impressed by those people.

I have a very big concern and question about this motion. Is a judicial inquiry the proper method for proceeding in this case? I was not at the meeting this morning, but I am going to agree with the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, whose decision was no. All it would do is pit the commercial fishers against the aboriginal citizens who live along the Fraser River.

I will give an example. There was an article in the Vancouver Sun quoting the member for Delta—Richmond East about this. The article stated:

“The DFO (Department of Fisheries and Oceans) allegation that warm water decimated the early Stuart run is clearly a fabrication”, states the report, which blames a “wall of aboriginal nets”....

That is from a report prepared by the member for Delta—Richmond East. That member would like nothing better than to have a judicial inquiry and repeat these allegations: “a wall of aboriginal nets”. I want no part of that at all. It would do nothing. I suggest and submit that we have to manage this issue and we have to do it by looking forward, not looking through a rear-view mirror.

The Minister of Fisheries and Oceans was aware of the problems experienced by the salmon in the Fraser River. There were environmental problems, water temperature problems, and certainly over-harvesting problems, and there may have been problems in the actual count. He was not going to wait around for months to do something. He immediately asked for a very quick post-harvest review, independent and public, chaired by former Chief Justice of the Province of British Columbia Bryan Williams.

That commission is doing its work as we speak. It is expected to report over the next several months. That will be of great assistance. Whether it will answer all the questions, problems and challenges I rather doubt, but it is certainly going to give all interested stakeholders a forum in which to discuss this issue, ask the basic questions on what happened during last year's Fraser run and hopefully give some guidance and foundation for what changes to the management plan can be put in place for next year's run. We can do the calculations: it is only a matter of a couple hundred days before the salmon are back in the river. These issues have to be resolved.

Again, the root of the problem goes back to the changes that have taken place over the past decade and how the resource has been allocated. There are some fundamental differences that have to be resolved by the people in those communities.

Having said that, it is my view that the department has made considerable strides over the past five years in the whole allocation process, the enforcement process and the conservation process. Again, we have the commercial fishers and the aboriginal fishers, but we should not forget in this debate the sector that perhaps contributes most to the British Columbia economy and that is the recreational fishers, which the previous speaker mentioned.

The biggest improvement I see in this regard has been the department's focus on consultation and collaboration. If we listen to some people, and we will probably hear it today, they will say that all we can do is send in the army and have a soldier or a fisheries officer every 20 feet or so and that might solve the problem. It might, and of course that would have to be done 24 hours a day, but I do not suggest that for one minute.

Over the past several years the department has developed new consultative models, new ways to bring all the interests to the same table to share in the decision making process. Of course some people do not want to share in that decision making process. We heard loud and clear from those people last Thursday and Friday in Vancouver. On both sides of the table, they just do not want to share. There were commercial fishers who stated very specifically that they do not agree with this right of food, social and ceremonial purposes. There were aboriginal witnesses who said that they do not; they feel the fish is theirs. That is the problem.

That is the problem that has to be resolved by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. The department has been working over the last number of years on a wild salmon policy, and it will be released very shortly, which will describe the objectives, highlight the principles and define the strategies to conserve and manage Pacific salmon into the future.

DFO has taken the time to fully consider recommendations received from several internal and external reviews to incorporate clear guidelines to implement the policy. By bringing together the various threads of salmon management, I am confident that the wild salmon policy will allow the department to work with our partners to conserve this very important resource for everyone's benefit.

The department is equally committed to modernizing our habitat management regime, focusing on the high priority areas, including those for salmon.

The Pearse-McRae report and the complementary first nations panel report are two more examples of how the department is working to change the fishery on this coast. The recommendations stemming from each report are now being considered with first nations and other stakeholders. Both reports point out the need to ensure access to a sustainable and profitable fisheries resource for all--and I underline the word “all”--participants. An implementation strategy will be in place for these recommendations in the very near future.

Let us look at the motion before us, which calls for a judicial inquiry. As I stated previously, the minister has established an independent commission chaired by retired Chief Justice Bryan Williams. It is at work and it will report very shortly. Again, the commission will be independent and impartial and it will certainly be public. Also, its recommendations will be available before the 2005 season. My caution to the department, though, is that I would not wait for the Williams commission report. It is something which I urge them to be at right now.

I am especially pleased that Mr. Williams has agreed to chair the review. He is widely regarded as a skilled negotiator, arbitrator and jurist. His extensive experience will serve him well as he sits down with the various interests involved to examine last year's fishery and put forward recommendations in the best interests of this resource.

The department has a mechanism in place to carry out a study of this year's salmon season. It will be open. It will be public. It will be transparent. Let us be clear: everyone, DFO officers, commercial fishers, independent people, the panel and the commission, should be invited and should testify. I want them to testify.

I want to conclude by saying briefly that not only is the motion before us today unnecessary, but it would slow down the process the government has already put in place. It would not permit stakeholders to participate. It would not provide the important information that is so needed. For these reasons, I urge all members to agree with the recommendation made earlier today by the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans to reject the motion.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Madam Speaker, I determined at committee this morning that the NDP did support our call for a judicial inquiry, which makes it clear that it is the government that is avoiding the issue of a judicial inquiry by its own actions.

The government will take advice from itself not to do what the motion calls for. The problem with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is that it is investigating its own actions and it has a vested interest not to get to the bottom of the fact that it was its management style and management practices that led to the 1992 and 1994 collapses on the Fraser River.

Those collapses were investigated by Pearse-Larkin in 1992 and they blamed DFO mismanagement. They were investigated again in 1994 by John Fraser and he also blamed DFO mismanagement.

That is why the government is in this kind of cover-up. It does not want to have true independence because that would l point out that it has learned no lesson.

I am glad the parliamentary secretary has been to British Columbia and is now a three day expert but what I am very disappointed about is not knowing where the British Columbia Liberal members of Parliament stand on this very important issue. They are not speaking to this issue and that concerns me.

The Government of Canada has a constitutional obligation to British Columbia to conserve the resource and optimize the fishery. The British Columbian economy will lose hundreds of millions of dollars in 2008 and beyond because of DFO mismanagement that happened this year and that has been happening for many years, and we need to fix it.

It is the Liberal parliamentary secretary who is invoking that we might have some racial conflict if we were to actually try to get to the bottom of it. It is not us. That is another typical Liberal ploy to avoid some unpleasant truths, which has everything to do with the way the Liberals are mishandling the file.

I appeal to the parliamentary secretary to do what is right and I say that the truth will set him free. Let us have a judicial inquiry. I would like to hear the response of the parliamentary secretary to those comments.

[Shawn Murphy, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Madam Speaker, the first point I will make concerns my comments with regard to the problems with this judicial inquiry.

It was not me who made the comment that this whole problem was caused by a wall of aboriginal nets. That was a comment in a report prepared by the member for Delta—Richmond East who would like nothing better than to have an open bear pit like this traditional inquiry go on for two or three years and pit one group of society against another group so that he can repeat over and over again that this problem was caused solely by a wall of aboriginal nets. That is inappropriate. It would not solve any problems. It has to be dealt with by other mechanisms as we move forward in a modern management of this resource.

I want to make another point concerning a comment the member made. I hope I am not interpreted as downplaying this issue. He said that it has been gradually going down but that is not the case. This year was an anomaly.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South, NL]

It happened in 1992, 1994 and 2000.

[Shawn Murphy, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

I am getting heckled here, Madam Speaker.

I am talking about the last number of years. They are going back to 1992. I do not recall who the minister was in 1992 but I believe it may have been John Crosbie. Perhaps the learned member can explain why things were so bad in 1992.

Again I want to point out that this year was an anomaly. It has not been perfect. There have been real allocation problems. There was an anomaly in 1992, as the heckler has pointed out, and a problem in 1994, but it certainly had not been as bad as some of the members have stated.

I want to repeat what I said in my speech. This mechanism that has been suggested here today is inappropriate, wrong and it would accomplish nothing. I hope and believe every member of this House should reject it outright.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South, NL]

Madam Speaker, I would like to say, for those who may be watching, that the best argument any of us could make for a judicial inquiry is to listen to the member opposite. He gave us just about every reason why we should have an inquiry that would get to the bottom of the complete mismanagement of the fisheries.

However let me correct the member in what he said. He said that this morning the standing committee rejected a call for a judicial inquiry. I will give two reasons for that.

First, the standing committee just returned from British Columbia where it had three days of excellent hearings. We will hear a lot more about those hearings today. The committee needs to finish a report. It is only right and fair that the committee be given time. The committee was put on the spot. I respect the committee's right to say that this is not the time to make the request. It has not yet assessed the evidence. That is fair ball.

However, do members know how we were defeated this morning? The majority of the people who were at the hearings supported it but five Liberal goons, who had not been to British Columbia and who did not have a clue about the issue, were sent in and they voted against the inquiry. That is why the standing committee made that decision this morning.

The hon. member talks about other inquiries. The standing committee did a report in 2001, which was tabled in 2003, making pointed recommendations that would have solved some of the problems that we are facing today. The Fraser report did the same thing. Both reports were completely and utterly ignored by government.

The minister, under pressure, waxed together a committee, which every stakeholder out there said would not work because all the players around the table would just argue and fight and that there would be no coordination, especially with the short timeframe.

What we need are some recommendations from the committee, even such as it is, to deal with the upcoming season because if we lose this coming season we will lose half the cycle.

What we need for the long term is to get to the root of what caused the problems in 1992, 1994 and again this year, and the ensuing problems. If we do not have an inquiry, I ask the member, how will we get to the bottom of the problems?

[Shawn Murphy, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Madam Speaker, the hon. member was in British Columbia and he certainly participated in the hearings, and I agree with him 100%. They were good hearings and we heard a lot of witnesses. Today is only Thursday and we have not had a chance to write a report. We certainly will be writing a report. I expect it to be a good report and I expect it to have some clear recommendations on this whole issue. I, like the hon. member, hope the executive of the government will heed these recommendations. We will do that in a timely basis.

I agree with a lot of what the member says. This is an important issue and it does need to receive priority from the minister but a judicial inquiry is not the way to go. An inquiry would take a couple of years, would cost millions and millions of dollars and we would have people like the member for Delta—Richmond East repeating the allegations that he published in his report and in the Vancouver Sun . It would do nothing to bring the parties that fish--

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Jean Augustine)]

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

Madam Speaker, as you are no doubt aware, this can be a heated debate when the hon. member for St. John's South—Mount Pearl takes the floor, because he was highly convinced and also highly convincing during the hearings held last week in Vancouver.

I will start by quoting from a report that very clearly describes the current situation. I will simply read the following:

The frustration of 1994 lies in the fact that no one, including the authorities, theexperts, and this Board, knows precisely what happened or how—

This quote describes perfectly the situation in 2004. But, it is straight out of the Fraser River Sockeye Public Review Board's 1994 report.

Therein lies the problem. I am asking the same question I asked the departmental representative; what did we learn in 1992 and 1994, to see history repeat itself, almost exactly, in 2004? As one historian said, history repeats itself, but never looks the same. Unfortunately, the impression we are getting is that history does repeat itself and, on the contrary, looks much the same as before.

What conclusion can we draw from what happened in 2004 on the Fraser River? First, I want to give a brief explanation to people in eastern Canada who are less familiar with the region. The Fraser River is over 1,000 km long. With its tributaries, it can be extremely difficult to get one's bearings. There are approximately 97 aboriginal bands, in addition to commercial and sport fishers, all along the river.

It is easy to imagine the distance that needs to be covered and the extent of the problem when there is a disaster such as the one in 2004. It affects many people and groups and, in my opinion, perhaps it could not have been avoided, given what we have heard, but it could at least have been foreseen. In fact, a similar situation had occurred in 1994.

So, I was wondering, and I still wonder, if the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is capable of remembering? Does it learn from the past? Can it manage operations based on past experiences? I get the feeling that it cannot, that it has no historical culture. Experience is something that, every year, has to be acquired all over again. Planning is done without consideration of what has happened or of past experience. These are a few of the things we realize when we look at the current situation.

We talked about this situation. We talked about the possibility that two million salmon have vanished. We have also met with scientists, and they cannot tell us today whether two million salmon have, in fact, disappeared. What is the figure? That is another problem. The scientists have told us that the infamous counter of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is not working correctly.

This is the extent of our knowledge, of our ability to understand the situation and an ecological system like the Fraser River. It is clear that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans does not even have the means to carry out serious, scientific studies so that we can have some answers.

Of course, hypotheses exist. Could the water temperature have affected the salmon run? Could it have killed a large number of salmon? Perhaps it was the stress caused by fishing. Or maybe the salmon, rather than swimming in a straight line, so to speak, had to work their way around obstacles, such as the setnets in the Fraser River, or other kinds of nets, and therefore tired themselves out more so that fewer and fewer reached the spawning grounds up river?

The scientists cannot answer any of these questions today and have only hypotheses. They do not have the means to carry out an in-depth study on the situation. We must therefore make do with guesswork.

The first thing needed for a solution to the situation is knowledge, in my opinion. At the present time, it seems clear to me that we lack scientific knowledge, and we will continue to do so until there is a major investment by this government and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans in research. That is fundamental.

This is true for the eastern fisheries as well. I can speak about the western fisheries and about the Fraser River, but my remarks apply just as well to the situation in the east. Since 1993, Fisheries and Oceans budgets have been drastically cut back, particularly research budgets. And, again this year, we hear that the department will have to cut 5% from its budget, when it is already under-funded. What it needs instead is more funding, since we know that its key responsibility, its main role, is protecting the resource.

If I were a senior Fisheries and Oceans official, I would be tempted to say: they have given me a mandate but they have prevented me from carrying out that mandate by not providing me with the means to do so. That is what this government is doing as far as Fisheries and Oceans is concerned. That is how it is affecting knowledge about the resource. That is why we do not know what is happening with the resource. So knowledge is the first requirement.

The second is the public inquiry. I am not much in favour of that, or perhaps should say I am not in favour of a public inquiry, because I see it as again relieving the government of responsibility. The judiciary is being asked to come up with some conclusions, when the government should be doing so as it should be properly managing the resource. No inquiry is needed; everyone knows that the resource is badly managed and everyone knows who is responsible for that mis-management. There is nothing complicated about it. Everyone knows. That is the way it is in the east, in the west, in every part of the country where the resource is managed by Fisheries and Oceans.

I feel like talking about resource protection. I can give a very specific example of what the department is not doing currently in my region. With respect to the precautionary principle this government is applying to resource management, I will give a very specific example. At present, in Belledune, New Brunswick, an incinerator is under construction on Chaleur Bay to dispose of highly toxic material imported from the United States. It is not even meant to dispose of our own. This week, it was established by scientists that the release of dioxides and furans from this type of incinerator will cause considerable damage to resources in Chaleur Bay.

There is currently a dispute between Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick about how to share the herring resource. Chaleur Bay is one of the main nursery areas for herring; that is where it grows up. This resource is now facing destruction in the long term, perhaps even the medium term, because it would take only a minor accident for the resource to be contaminated and banned for human consumption.

When we talk about accountability, the precautionary principle, prudence, the government has shown none of that. At present, it has the tools to deal with this problem, but is not dealing with it, under the Fisheries Act. With this act, it could deal with the situation in Chaleur Bay, but it does not.

I could give many examples. Another problem I have noticed on the west coast is that, when an accident happens, Fisheries and Oceans takes no part in any assistance plan. What should be done, really, when these communities are hit is to provide them with practical assistance. When people lose their livelihood overnight, they need practical assistance to survive. What people are asking for when fishing is closed or banned is an assistance plan for those affected, so that they can survive.

We asked for it in reference to groundfish and we went even further. I recommended an individualized service plan to the government at the time. I recommended that the government or public servants meet with each person affected and find out how to bring these people back into the labour force, because we know very well that at present the fisheries resource is not recovering as quickly as we thought. There is even some chance that the problems will last for many more years. Consequently, there are people who have left the fishing industry in the east and found themselves with practically no income. They have ended up working at little jobs for $7, $8, $9 an hour and have found themselves on EI at the end of the year and then facing the gap.

If that is how a responsible government operates, and if that is how responsible managers operate, the party opposite has missed the boat, not only on the Fraser River, but on the east coast too. It can be seen everywhere: in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland—which has been hard hit by the groundfish crisis—and in Quebec as well. In fact, in the Gulf of St. Lawrence there are many injustices and problems to be dealt with.

It is extremely difficult to resolve the Fraser River situation. There is no use in pretending that this can be resolved easily. There are 97 aboriginal bands and a multitude of groups of sport fishers and professional fishers. I asked everyone involved the following question: “If you all decided to sit around a table and talk, do you think this problem could get resolved? Do you think that we could resolve the allocation problems, that the resource could be shared reasonably and fairly, and that we could find a way for everyone to benefit?” The answer was yes.

However, in the current problem it seems that the government wants to divide and conquer. When there is a multitude of groups that do not agree, it is much easier to make whatever decision you want. That is what the government is doing. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the government would have a much harder time responding to and dealing with just one organized group representing all these people or a well-structured, determined organization of all the participants of the salmon fishery in the Fraser River.

There is another element whose effect is extremely difficult to adjust. I am talking about higher water temperatures. Is this the cause, as I stated earlier? Possible, say the scientists, but far from certain. Did the Fraser River's warmer water temperatures during the spawning season cause many more salmon to die? This question needs answering, but I do not think water temperatures are the sole reason.

We have also talked about overfishing. I do not think this is the sole cause, either. We have talked about poaching. I do not think this is the sole cause. However, I want to add something here. In my opinion—the parliamentary secretary talked about this earlier and did not seem to agree—the Department of Fisheries and Oceans has recently made efforts to increase surveillance so as to reduce poaching in the Fraser River.

Nevertheless, the current resources are clearly inadequate. I have said so before. We are talking about a river 1,000 kilometres long and its various branches. It is a huge territory to watch over, and I do not think that, realistically, the resources allocated to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, with respect to fisheries wardens, are sufficient to cover as large an area as that, and to cover all the activities on the Fraser River as well.

We have heard, as a result, that there is a lot of poaching. That cannot be 100% wiped out, but, if the necessary effort is made, perhaps 50% or 60% could be dealt with, and that would give the resources more of a chance. In the end, of course, it is the fishers who are penalized the most.

This is what the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is doing. It is also a question I have asked. It would not even need to monitor this resource, because it deducts the percentage it has estimated for poaching. In fact, it deducts that percentage automatically before it awards fish quotas, which are the number of salmon that fishers are allowed to catch.

What the Department of Fisheries and Oceans does is deduct x , the number of salmon it knows very well will be poached. That penalizes all fishers, Aboriginal groups and the industry.

Those salmon are sold on the black market. Obviously, they could be traced back to the source. At present, methods have been proposed to eliminate most of the poaching. To do so, there is increased surveillance and perhaps a new way to trace the fish stocks. It is the same system that has been recently implemented for beef in Quebec. I think the rest of Canada ought to implement it as well, considering the crisis we have been through.

In conclusion, I do not agree with the creation of a judicial inquiry. We know the answer. We know who is responsible and who must take responsibility, and we have known that for years. We have known it since 1992. We know that the cuts have been hard on the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. We know that the department is responsible for the resource and responsible for managing it in the interest of the community.

In conclusion, in my opinion, agreeing to a judicial inquiry would be tantamount to relieving this government of its responsibility for this situation.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources]

Madam Speaker, you are doing an excellent job.

I have three questions for the hon. member.

The first one is technical, and I do not know if he will know the answer. It is related to fishing on the high seas. Salmon has a very broad life cycle. Could he comment on what is happening to them in the high seas and are there other efforts that Canada should be taking in that respect?

My second question is related to his suggestion that he already knew the answer. He said that the fisheries minister had to fix this, but he did not say that it was specifically related to the run of salmon on the Fraser River. Exactly what items did the fisheries minister not fix in relation to this run?

My last question is this. Does the member think we should continue our large investments related to climate change. As members know, the science shows that some of the problem are related to increases in temperature that has led to mortality and reduced performance of the fish. We have invested large amounts of money in Clean Coal. In fact, we have exported that to China, as well as solar energy, biodiesel, ethanol and wind energy. During the election we said that we would increase that four times. We are trying to market state of the art Candu reactors. EnerGuide is in thousands of homes. We are doing world-leading research in frozen methane and adaption studies, an investment of over $3 billion.

I hope the member will support this as we continue to make large investments in climate change which might help resolve the problem with some of the species because of increased temperatures.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his two questions. There were in fact two questions.

The first question was related to fishing on the high seas. Indeed the high seas have to be monitored and the government also has to protect the resource. There is a problem there as well. I cannot say for certain, since we do not know yet, but it is very possible that there is overfishing on the high seas.

I will answer his second question related to climate change by reminding him that scientists are saying that what has happened cannot be explained simply by the warmer water. That is what we are being told and that the budget is not big enough to do more indepth research.

Is the warmer water to blame? Perhaps it is—I say perhaps because this is still just a hypothesis. I agree with the hon. member that we must continue to invest significantly in research on both climate change and the impact it might be having on the resource. This may be the answer, but I think there is more to this. It is true we must continue to invest, but whose fault is it, if not the members opposite, that the investment falls short?

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Madam Speaker, before I begin, I would like to bring to the attention of the House that the son of my colleague from Windsor, Ontario celebrated his first birthday yesterday. Congratulations to one-year old Wade Masse.

I have a question for my hon. colleague from the Bloc Québécois, who is a well-respected member of our fisheries committee. I have been with him for several years as we have travelled the country. I greatly respect his input and that of his party into the issues related to fisheries matters, and not just in the province of Quebec. He has a real concern for fishermen and their families across the country.

Without valid whistleblower protection, employees of particular departments, and in this case the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, are afraid to come forward and publicly state their serious concerns with their department. They will always be fearful of retribution if they come forward.

A classic example, and the member was there when it happened, occurred in Ucluelet, British Columbia when we were discussing issues of the marine communication and traffic services. An employee in that area came to us with very serious concerns and he said them publicly on the record. As he was giving his presentation to us in committee, he was handed a letter of discipline from the department. The department said that it was on a completely different matter. The timing of that was extremely suspicious.

That sent a very clear message to employees of DFO who might have wished to come forward to the committee to discuss their concerns about middle and upper management . If thy speak, thy shall be disciplined. That clear message was sent out. It is very difficult to get employees of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, especially in my area of Nova Scotia, to come to an open forum to bring these issues forward.

Without whistleblower protection, to which I do not think the Liberals will ever agree, why does the member not think a judicial inquiry would be another tool in the toolbox to assist us to finally open up DFO, find the skeletons in the closet and fix the problems of management within the department once and for all?

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his question, because I want to clarify something about the idea of a judicial inquiry.

In a judicial inquiry, people are under oath, obviously, but they can decide not to answer questions. No one in the world can force them to answer. Even under oath, they are not required to answer any question they do not wish to answer. If they are asked a question and refuse to answer, that is their right. A judicial inquiry will not change anything. People will still have the right not to answer; they have the right to remain silent.

How can a civil servant be protected upon returning to work after testifying in a judicial inquiry? This is a public process. The individual will refuse to answer questions that involve him. There is no doubt about that. A judicial inquiry will not be useful, because of the issue of ensuring the protection of witnesses. That is another problem.

What the hon. member is suggesting, naturally, is that steps should be taken to protect whistleblowers. That is right. Even in a judicial inquiry, if I were a civil servant and I had information, I would remain silent because I know it would end up in the newspapers the next day. Back at my department, what do you think would happen, even if I was under oath? I would not be protected. A judicial inquiry is pointless.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Madam Speaker, it is always a pleasure to listen to my colleague from Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia. It is always worthwhile to hear someone speak on a topic he is familiar with, one he addresses with passion, love and interest. Enough flattery; now for the criticism.

First of all, I would like to ask my colleague whether the problems with the Pacific salmon are similar to those with the Atlantic salmon? And second, what is his opinion of genetically modified salmon?

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his Christmas gift of such lavish praise.

Is there a similarity between the problems with the Pacific salmon and those with the Atlantic salmon? I think they are equally serious. We know that investments are being called for in order to better protect the Atlantic salmon resource, and the department's response is “No, we will not give you any more to protect the resource, because there are groups in the Atlantic that specialize in resource protection.”

Now, for the transgenic salmon. These cannot be sold in Canada at the present time. I hope that situation will not be changed. Anyway, we do not need that type of salmon to feed our population.

There is, of course, farmed salmon. They are trying to improve its quality but there is certainly no comparison between it and Pacific or wild salmon. That is obvious. At the present time, however, efforts are being made to improve its quality, and to ensure the acceptability of the industry in terms of sustainable development and environmental protection.

I must make it clear that I will never agree to allowing transgenic salmon to be marketed in Canada.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today on behalf of the federal New Democratic Party to discuss the very serious issue of what happened to the Fraser River sockeye in 2004. If I may first give a historical review of this situation, our review of the Fraser River sockeye salmon quite possibly could enter into a debate about where we go in the future.

I have been a member of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans since June 1997. I am currently the second longest serving member on the Standing Committee of Fisheries and Oceans, besides my colleague from the Delta area. Of all the committees in which I have had a chance to participate, this committee is the best one in the House of Commons.

At first there were five political parties; now there are four and the reality is that how the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans works is the way that government and Parliament should work. We have had four chairmen since I have been there, each one of them very good. Our current chair from Scarborough, Ontario is outstanding. We may disagree on other issues but as the chair of our committee, he does a very good job for us. I am proud to work with him and colleagues from the Conservative, Bloc and Liberal parties in order to advance the issues of fishermen and their families throughout the country.

On the debate of the inquiry, the question is whether or not we should have a judicial inquiry into what happened to the Fraser River sockeye salmon. My simple answer is that we should. I will relate the reason to another event that is happening now, which is how quickly the government moved to have a judicial inquiry into the sponsorship scandal. A whole bunch of money somehow went away, went into pockets of people, friends and associates, and what did the current Prime Minister say? “We are going to get to the bottom of this. The Canadian people have a right to get to the bottom on this”. What did he do? He called for a judicial inquiry into the sponsorship scandal.

If we correlate that to today's discussion, the Canadian people have a right to know what happened to their public resource, the salmon. Mr. David Bevan, an ADM at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, a gentleman for whom I have great respect, handed out a document to us in committee the other day which states that fisheries is a common property resource belonging to the Canadian people, to be managed by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans on behalf of the Crown.

I agree with him. That fish belongs to all Canadians, not just British Columbians. The department has the constitutional duty and obligation to manage that resource in the way that benefits the majority of Canadians. If anyone could stand in this House and say that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans has done a good job, that statement would have originated from the south end of a north bound cow because it simply is not true.

If we look at the east coast of Canada, for example, since the collapse of the cod stocks we have spent $4.5 billion of taxpayers' money to readjust the east coast fishery. What happened the other day in Harbour Breton, Newfoundland? The plant shut down. Over 300 people lost their jobs. We have to ask ourselves, why? There are many reasons.

The Liberals are so afraid of having a judicial inquiry because it would open up a can of worms which they would not be able to close. All of a sudden things would come out that the government would be very afraid to have disclosed.

Mr. Bevan said that this is a common property resource, but what we see in this country is the very rapid privatization of that resource into fewer and fewer hands. On the west coast today, Jimmy Pattison's company effectively controls 50% of the wild salmon stocks. How did that happen? If we go back to 1996, the fisheries minister, Mr. Mifflin, a former admiral in our forces, brought in the so-called Mifflin plan on the west coast.

Immediately in early 1998 the committee went to the west coast to communities like Sointula. We saw a fisherman, his wife and three children crying before the committee. He was in tears about the Mifflin plan which brought in area stacking of licences.

For years and years fishermen could go from Victoria to Prince Rupert and fish their quota up and down the coast. Then the Mifflin plan was brought in with area stacking which meant that fishermen were boxed in. If they wanted to fish in another area, which they historically had rights to, they had to stack their licence. This meant that they had to pay another $100,000 in order to have that privilege, a privilege that they and their ancestors had had for years. Many fishermen could not afford that. Effectively the government got rid of a lot of fishermen, but the fish ended up in the hands of the corporations.

On the east coast we have trust agreements with our lobster stocks. The fact is we believe in the owner-operator principle. There has to be a separation from the operator of the vessel and the ownership of that.

Last week I spoke to three guys who just signed over trust agreements to a company in Nova Scotia. A trust agreement means that a company owns it. The company gives the fishermen the money to buy the licences, but they have to fish for that company and sell their catch to that company. They are no longer independent fishermen, like the small independent family farmer. They now owe themselves to the company store.

Slowly but surely, actually very rapidly, the fishery is being corporatized. I have said for years that this is the direction in which the government has been going. The government will never admit it. It will never stand up in the House and say, “We want to corporatize the public resource to manage it more effectively and do whatever”. If that is the reason, the government should come out and say it.

At least Joey Smallwood when he was Premier of Newfoundland said to the people, “I am going to resettle you into other communities”. This is a resettlement by stealth. It is absolutely unacceptable that the government can treat fishermen in this manner. We owe it to Canadian families and fishermen and their families from coast to coast to coast and our inland waters to have a much better government and a much better Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

The department receives $1.5 billion of taxpayers' money every year to do one thing and one thing only, to protect the fish and fish habitat. To say that it has been doing a good job is simply not correct at all. This is why a judicial inquiry would be very helpful.

The argument that a judicial inquiry would take a long time is absolutely correct, but that has not stopped the government from having the independent inquiry that is going on already. It has not prevented that from happening. The government could do both. If the government was willing to call an inquiry into the sponsorship scandal, then it should be willing to have an inquiry into the fisheries concern as well.

One of the most frustrating things for the opposition is with respect to committee reports. The Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, as I have stated, is one of the best committees that a member could ever sit on. I am honoured and privileged to work with my colleagues on all sides of the House. In 1998-99 we did two reports on the west coast, the interim report and the final report of 1998-99.

My colleague from Vancouver Island North of the Alliance Party at that time moved concurrence in the report in the House of Commons. We had a unanimous report, which means that nine Liberals, including the chair, had to agree to every word of that report, otherwise they would not have signed it.

We stood up in the House of Commons and voted on that report. Five Liberals of that committee did not show up for the vote, although three of them were in town. Four of them, who had signed on to the report, were in the House. They stood up and voted against their own report. They were told by the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans that it was not what the government wanted, that the government wanted something else.

Why would they sign on to a unanimous report only to stand up in the House of Commons a month later and vote against their own report? It is simply unacceptable that that kind of behaviour happens in the House of Commons.

We spend a lot of taxpayers' money travelling the country, listening to witnesses, hearing the evidence, and drafting a report. Anyone who has been on a committee knows there is a lot of tug and pull in a committee about language, words and what can happen and what cannot happen. I have issued minority reports because I could not accept the overall version of where a report was going, but that is my prerogative and the prerogative of other members as well. If the Liberal members had a problem with that report, they never should have agreed to it.

This frustrates Canadians. They hear us when we go to their communities, such as La Scie, Newfoundland; Sointula, British Columbia; Prince Albert, Saskatchewan; and Trois-Rivières, Quebec. We listen to their concerns. We say that we are going to do a report, that we are going to try to make it unanimous and put pressure on the government, only in turn to have the government tell the committee members, “You did a good job but we are not going to listen to it”. That is very frustrating.

When we did a report on the MCTS services of the Coast Guard in Ucluelet, British Columbia, Mike Henderson was then heading the Coast Guard on the west coast. The first question I asked him was whether he had enough money and manpower to do the job that we asked him to do. Mr. Henderson's comment was “money is not a problem”. That is exactly what he said to us.

We then went to Victoria, Tofino and Ucluelet and told the workers and the middle managers in those stations exactly what their boss had told us. They were fit to be tied. A lady in Victoria said she had been screaming for millions of dollars for equipment and manpower and asked what the heck that guy was talking about. We went to Ucluelet and spoke to a woman who worked every single day in August because the service was short staffed. She worked every single day.

How can someone say to the committee that money is not a problem? How can someone say that everything is just fine when out in the field it is completely the reverse?

It frustrates people like myself on a standing committee when we ask middle managers and people within DFO direct, simple questions, and I cannot say they misled us on purpose, but their answers are certainly not forthcoming in the affirmative. They are out of touch with reality.

When we were in Ucluelet, one gentleman came to us to tell his story about what was going on. The day of the committee he was issued a disciplinary letter from DFO. Of course DFO management said that the letter concerned something completely different from his appearance before the committee, but the timing was very suspect.

Why would the Department of Fisheries and Oceans do that? Why would it do that? It sent a very clear message, that if anybody else spoke to the committee in an open forum, thou shall be disciplined. That is not on the official record of course, but that is the interpretation it left. That is really unacceptable.

This is why my party is demanding whistleblower protection to protect the workers for a very long time. I would only hope that one day the Liberal government would see the light and protect those people.

We have other issues in the Department of Health. We know what happened there and those are grave concerns.

A few years ago Ransom Myers and Jeffrey Hutchings, two very prominent scientists within DFO, issued a very scathing report of science misinformation within the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. They accused the department and the government of misleading scientific information, misinterpreting scientific information for political means. That was a very scathing report.

We in Nova Scotia for many years were very proud of the Bedford Institute of Oceanography. It was one of the greatest institutes in the world for oceanographic studies. We are very proud of the people who are there still. There is just not enough of them. It is a shell of its former self.

The government consistently, minister after minister after minister, has told me and others in the House that it operates on the precautionary principle and on the best available scientific information. If it does not have the scientific information to begin with, how can it possibly say that it is operating on the precautionary principle? That is what is so frustrating. What happens and what is said are two completely different things.

No wonder the Conservative Party of Canada is asking for a judicial inquiry into the Fraser River sockeye. Something happened to those fish. We can blame it on the environment. We can blame it on wrong science. We can blame it on commercial fishermen. We can blame it on aboriginals. We can blame it on all kinds of people, but the fact is there is only one management team, and it is the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. It is ultimately responsible for the management of those stocks.

Mr. Speaker, you know, as you live right where it happened. You had grave concerns when you appeared before a formal committee. I have never seen you on our committee, but I was very impressed with your knowledge of what happened in your back yard in terms of the fishery. You asked some very good questions. I might add that they were very good questions which were never answered. Seeing as you represent the area, I think you have a right to those answers.

As a former British Columbian and a person who lived in the Yukon, and who now lives on the east coast, what I have seen happen to the fisheries in this country is simply unacceptable. It is time to open it up.

In 1998 Michael Harris wrote a book called Lament for an Ocean: The Collapse of the Atlantic Cod Fishery. He had studied and followed our fisheries committee for quite some time. In November 1997 I was new here, but I already knew that the department was out of control. I asked for a judicial inquiry into the practices and policies of the entire department. It went absolutely no where. Hopefully, we are now going to have a judicial inquiry into one small aspect of the department regarding the Fraser River sockeye. That is the least we can do.

There is no doubt that my colleague from Delta and I disagree on certain aspects of quota management in the fishery. As a commercial fisherman himself, I believe he was sincere when he talked about his serious concerns regarding the stocks.

Management of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans on the west coast of British Columbia is incredible. When I first came here, there were discussions about highway maintenance, and building new roads and bridges on Vancouver Island. That totally wiped out fish bearing streams. It was the department's job to ensure that did not happen. We were told afterward that some errors had been made, but the department would ensure they would not happen again.

We heard concerns about lifting the moratorium on aquaculture. We heard concerns about sea lice. We still do not have the proper scientific information on them. We have conflicting information. The government said it operates under the cautionary principle, but one would think that it would wait until it received all the information possible.

We received records today about a meeting between Larry Murray, the deputy minister of fisheries, Richard Wex, the director general of fisheries on the west coast and Terence Chandler, the head of Redfern Resources, who wants to build a road 160 kilometres long through the beautiful watershed of the Tlingit people in the northern Taku. John Ward, chief of the Tlingit people in the northern British Columbia area, asked for that same type of meeting, but he could not get it. Why would DFO meet with a mining company to discuss roads and a mine, and not meet with aboriginal leaders in that regard? That is unacceptable.

I firmly believe that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans could eliminate many independent fishermen. We have seen this done on the farm. Many farmers have lost their ability to farm on their land and have left the farm altogether. The land is still producing because huge corporate farms have taken over from individual farms. Ever since the 1982 Kirby report, larger companies have been fishing our waters. Slowly but surely, independent fishermen are losing their ability to fish. There are a myriad of reasons for that.

DFO needs a cleansing of its soul. There are some good people working for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. I speak to them on a regular basis from Cape Breton to Vancouver Island. There are very good people on the ground, but there is not enough of them. There are 1,600 good people working at 200 Kent Street, but no one is fishing for salmon or cod in the Rideau Canal.

We need to get to the bottom of what happened to the Fraser River sockeye. Although a judicial inquiry would be a long process, it may solve the problem and allow DFO employees to speak freely without retribution. It would also allow the independent review that the minister has already allocated.

It does not matter if the minister is changed, the department still has serious flaws that need to be corrected. We hope we can learn from our mistakes, learn from what happened to the sockeye, and protect the interests of fishermen and their families.