Debates of Dec. 9th, 2004

Infrastructure

[The Speaker]

The hon. Minister of State.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Minister of State (Infrastructure and Communities)]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague has raised a very interesting proposal. I would be delighted to sit down and talk to him about it, and discuss the process by which we might come to some sort of conclusion.

I would like to highlight our ongoing commitments to investments in sustainable infrastructure, including public transit. Since 1994 we have put $12 billion into public infrastructure, including public transit. In March or February of next year, when we have our budget, we will be putting out $5 billion over the next five years for sustainable infrastructure, including pubic transit.

Privacy

[Carolyn Parrish, Independent, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the current scandal affecting CIBC and other banks, and the sloppy conduct regarding wayward faxes is an infringement on the privacy of Canadians. However, an even more egregious attack on this privacy exists. Tens of millions of Canadian credit card holders are now open to wholesale scrutiny by the U.S. government.

Many financial institutions subcontract credit card operations to Total Systems, a U.S. company which operates under the patriot act. Private information on Canadians can be, and is, routinely shared with the FBI, the CIA, and other security organizations. Hundreds of thousands of Canadians who travel to--

[The Speaker]

The hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the President of the Treasury Board.

[Diane Marleau, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board]

Mr. Speaker, we are very concerned about access to private information of our citizens. We are working very closely with all the departments to check all out-sourcing, so that we can ensure protection of privacy of information.

[The Speaker]

The Chair has notice of a point of order, but it does not arise from question period. I understand there may be some other requests, but question period is over. We will move on to those other things.

Business of the House

[John Reynolds, Conservative, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the government House leader if he could tell the House what the business is for the rest of today, tomorrow, and as far into next week as he would like to forecast.

I would also like to tell him that the opposition will agree to go back to tabling of documents so that Bill C-20 can be brought back today, in the spirit of Christmas cooperation.

[Tony Valeri, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his cooperation.

Today we will conclude consideration of the business of supply for the present period.

Tomorrow we will start with Bill C-10, the civil law harmonization legislation. I believe that there is agreement to do this at all stages.

Then we will start on a list that will carry us into next week: report stage and second reading of Bill C-18, respecting Telefilm; reference to committee before second reading of Bill C-27, respecting food and drugs; second reading of Bill C-26, respecting border services; report stage and second reading of Bill C-15, respecting migratory birds; second reading of Bill C-29, respecting patent regulations; and of course, completion of business not finished this week.

My hon. colleague has also indicated cooperation on Bill C-20. I know that there are some ongoing discussions with respect to a quick completion of Bill C-20, the first nations fiscal bill. We would hopefully get to that before we adjourned.

On Monday evening there will be a take note debate on the problems in western Canada with pine beetles. Accordingly, I move:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 53.1, a take note debate on pine beetles take place on December 13, 2004.

[The Speaker]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

Mr. Speaker, there have been discussions with all parties and I think you would find unanimous consent to revert to presenting reports from committees.

[The Speaker]

Is there unanimous consent to revert to presenting reports from committees?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

Committees of the House

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the second report of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development regarding its order of reference of Friday, November 19, 2004, for Bill C-20, an act to provide for real property taxation powers of first nations, to create a first nations tax commission, first nations financial management board, first nations finance authority and first nations statistical institute and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

The committee has considered Bill C-20 and reports the bill with amendments.

Points of Order

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. A Globe and Mail story today claims to have a copy of a confidential draft report of the Standing Committee on Finance in regard to its prebudget consultations. The story begins:

The high-profile House of Commons finance committee wants Ottawa to tap surplus cash to slash taxes across the board--

This statement is false. The committee began considering the report yesterday, but had not considered or approved any of the recommendations mentioned in the Globe and Mail article.

As chair of the Standing Committee on Finance, I decided that it would be of assistance to members in their work, unlike previous years, if they were permitted to take one copy of the confidential draft report away with them. It appears that my trust was misplaced, as has that of the many members of the committee who are not responsible for this leak.

Whoever is responsible for this leak clearly intended to give a false impression to the public and may even have been trying to sabotage the committee's consideration for this draft report.

In any case, it certainly constitutes interference with a committee that is trying to exercise its responsibilities under the rules of the House.

The committee is continuing to work toward its very tight deadline for producing a report but has asked me, as its chair, for guidance from the Speaker with regard to dealing with an unacceptable interference with its work.

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel has raised a point of some importance obviously. He has clarified the position with respect to the article that was published and made clear what is incorrect in respect of that article and that is, I am sure, satisfactory from the point of view of the committee.

It seems to me though, before the Chair can act on the hon. member's suggestion, that I give the committee advice. I will perhaps give the committee some advice now but I am limited to that. The committee can bring a report to the House indicating that its privileges have in its view been breached, and the House can then choose to act or not on that report by having it referred to another committee for study, or the committee may wish to investigate the matter itself. However, until the committee has reported to the House, it is not for the Speaker to give rulings on matters that the committee may or may not regard as questions of privilege or breaches of its privilege.

I am inclined to wait for a report from the committee, or of course, the hon. member can discuss the matter informally with other colleagues and the Chair to determine what course of action might be appropriate in the circumstances. However, it seems to me that until a report from the committee is here before the House, it is not something I can make a ruling on. Normally where a committee feels its privileges have been breached, it presents a report and the House then acts on that report, or not.

We will leave it at that, if that is satisfactory.

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Supply

[The Speaker]

Before oral question period, the hon. member for Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine had the floor. He now has 10 minutes to finish his speech.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will take advantage of the time remaining to me to continue where I left off, which was discussing what happened last week in British Columbia, Vancouver to be precise, when there were public hearings on Fraser River sockeye. We heard a number of presentations.

As I said, we heard from people who spoke of past studies, since this is nothing new. The auditor general has looked at it more than once, as has the commissioner on the environment and sustainable development, not to mention the committee. I will get back to that shortly. We also heard from sports and commercial fishers, as well as from aboriginal people.

That pretty well summarizes the list of people who fish sockeye in the Fraser, although it does not go into all the details. We need to keep in mind particularly the American fishermen, and the fact that salmon as we all know is in the ocean before it gets to the river, so there may be a lot of fishing opportunities during that long trip. This shows that the matter is not simple. It is complex, given the number of different fishing opportunities there may be.

Today we are discussing the presentation made by the Conservative Party concerning a motion that I will take this opportunity to read again, and to comment as I go along. It starts out:

That the House recognize that the maintenance of the sockeye salmon stocks in the Fraser River is crucial for conservation and for commercial, recreational and aboriginal users—

I think we can easily support this part of the motion, given that the salmon stock in the Fraser River represented hundreds of millions of dollars in the past. Today, it represents tens of millions of dollars. This is a significant drop and illustrates the importance and seriousness of the issue. Continuing with the Conservative motion:

--that the Government's investigation into the collapse ofthis resource cannot be considered independent

I cannot agree, given that several studies and investigations are currently underway on this issue. Continuing:

--that past decisions have beenmade without the proper science

I agree with this.

--and that, as a consequence,the House call on the Government to establish an independentjudicial enquiry to determine the cause of the collapse of thesockeye salmon stocks on the Fraser River.

I must tell you that we cannot support this request because, as has been mentioned a number of times, including by the Bloc Québécois critic for fisheries, the hon. member for Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, holding an enquiry now would be premature.

As I mentioned at the beginning of my speech, we now have an opportunity to study this issue. Holding an enquiry would mean giving up on the work that has been done and that is currently underway, especially with the request and complicity of the same party presenting the motion today. It is this same complicity and this same action requiring us to quickly and attentively examine the issue of the Fraser River salmon. I think we should give the committee the time it needs to fully examine this issue.

Public hearings were held in British Columbia only a few days ago, and the Conservative Party already wants to cut the committee's work short. The Conservatives do not believe the committee is well placed to carry out its work and are renouncing this aspect and calling for a judicial enquiry.

Furthermore, I will read part of the Conservative Party motion:

—that...the House call on the Government to establish an independent udicial enquiry to determine the cause of the collapse of the sockeye salmon stocks on the Fraser River.

Rather than saying “the cause”, perhaps it should say “the causes”. As hon. members have already said a number of times, there is not one single cause of stocks collapsing; there are several causes.

I do not think a judicial inquiry is an appropriate way to examine the causes of the collapse of such significant and crucial stocks as these. In my opinion, the right thing is to take some time for work and reflection, such as has already begun in committee and also as provided for by the commission that is now operating and aiming to shed light on these causes. I do not think that a judicial inquiry into the causes of the collapse is appropriate. Consequently, I cannot support the Conservative Party motion, in view of its wording and its implications.

Moreover, we can also mention that we had an opportunity to hear from people at the Office of the Auditor General and from the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, since they have been looking into this matter since 1997.

This brings me to comment more specifically on the recommendations of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, which has considered this file more than once. Recently, in June 2003 to be precise, it issued a report on the Fraser River salmon. There were a number of recommendations. I shall come back to some of them, because, in view of the time I have available, I will not be able to go into details. I will begin with the recommendations.

If there were the political will to go and see what is really happening with respect to the causes, if the Department of Fisheries and Oceans were really doing its work, then we might get some light shed on what is happening with the Fraser River sockeye salmon.

One of the committee's recommendations was to return to a single commercial fishery for all Canadians, in which all participants in a particular fishery would be subject to the same rules and regulations. Consequently, DFO should bring to an end the pilot sales projects and convert current opportunities into comparable opportunities in the regular commercial fishery. That is one of the recommendations.

The Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans made other recommendations too. One of them concerns the government's ensuring that DFO respects the public right to fish and the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans' assuming his authority to manage the fishery.

There was also another recommendation that quite clearly illustrates the work with regard to the causes. This is a little of what is being put before us today. We are being called upon to consider a way to resolve this complex situation by determining the cause or causes. If I am to believe the Conservative Party, there is one cause; but if I am to believe what I have heard, there is more than one cause. I repeat that it is too early to say. A judicial inquiry is not needed to determine the cause or causes that can lead to collapse.

I will stop here, by saying that we the goodwill of the stakeholders who appeared before the committee in British Columbia was evident and that we are thinking of the commercial sport or aboriginal fishers, the scientists and the staff at Department of Fisheries and Oceans, who, in their various capacities, clearly have a number of shortcomings to fix.

However, I want to consider essentially those who have benefited from the fishery and those who might benefit from it in the future, if we manage to rebuild the stock. These people have shown beyond the shadow of a doubt a real desire to collaborate. This sort of collaboration is not universal. In fact, when it comes to such complex issues as this, where there is an economic context involving tens of millions of dollars, when we see that various stakeholders are taking part, we must take advantage of it.

Consequently, I think that the motion before us today cannot be agreed to. I invite my colleagues to vote against it.

[David Anderson, Liberal, Victoria, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. member. I would first like to congratulate him on taking the time to travel with the committee to British Columbia. It was evident from his speech that he listened attentively to the individuals appearing before the committee.

My question is this. I cannot recall a judicial enquiry at home, in British Columbia, taking less than four years. Does the hon. member know of a judicial enquiry in Quebec, for example, that took less than four years? If it takes so long to achieve the goal, I am not convinced that this is the best method for obtaining the necessary information.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question. I have two things to say in reply.

First, yes, it is a matter of years when we are talking of a judiciary inquiry. What the present situation requires is much more appropriate and urgent action.

Second, a call for a judiciary inquiry can, I imagine, easily be made in a situation where the various parties showed no desire to reach an agreement and to cooperate in getting out of the catastrophic mess we are in at present.

Going back there for the umpteenth time, but this time as a committee member, I felt that there was a desire among the various fishers to reach agreement, having heard their presentations. I think their participation is essential if a resolution is to be reached in conjunction with Fisheries and Oceans. Cooperation is important, but action is vital. We could talk about what is going on in the east.

But, to summarize the situation as far as the Fraser River sockeye are concerned, I think that agreement is possible, given the obvious willingness being shown by the parties. The committee members will all agree: people want to work together on this. As a result, we can solve it in months, not years.

I am still confident. Perhaps I am being a bit naive, but I have faith in human nature. When I see these people, all faced with such a huge problem, making it clear to us that they are ready to talk with each other, to meet, to eventually sit together on a committee or even a commission, it seems to me we can assume this desire to cooperate will lead us to one or more solutions and will also enable us to find out why the stocks have diminished so greatly.

Rushing to point fingers or threatening to take legal action will not resolve the situation. If something gets into the legal system, it seems to become a matter of finding the guilty party, whereas in this case just about everyone shares the guilt.

Why then not go about this in he right, logical and responsible way and most importantly in a way in keeping with this goodwill we have seen, rather than going with the Conservative Party of Canada's motion as presented to us?

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments of the member from the Bloc. He indicated near the end that he might be naive and I wonder if that might not be true. I was there along with him and I appreciated his good work in the hearings, but I would like to ask him if he heard anybody during those three days say they were confident that DFO could fix this problem, a recurring problem, a problem over and over again. What have we lost now? Maybe a quarter of the cycle. Who knows where this is going to end?

Those who have looked at this from an independent point of view have said that these salmon stocks are seriously in decline and we must do something long term that will get to the truth of the matter. Nobody on this side thought that holding three days of committee hearings was going to be the solution. We wanted to begin the process with that. I do not think we heard anybody at those hearings say that the review process the minister put in place is going to be the solution.

We need something that has credible fact-finding that results in forceful recommendations. I do not know of anything better to do that in the long run, to fix this once and for all, than a judicial inquiry, unlike the member has commented.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. I do not want to argue whether it is necessary to be naive. However, given what he has just said, I want to point out that the responsibility of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans should not automatically be forgotten simply because those involved are willing to work together.

The collapse did not happen by chance, or overnight. That is why the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is still fully and completely responsible. It is quite clear that the lack of action and the absence of any political will to intervene in this issue have certainly contributed to the situation before us today.

Calling for a judicial enquiry will not fix the situation, especially since the enquiry requested by the members of the Conservative Party pertains only to the causes. Holding an enquiry into the causes alone will not by magic make the stocks reappear.

Decisions have been made, which in my opinion were unjustified, or which, politically speaking, could have been justified from a certain point of view but which had a definite and negative impact on the resource, the collapse we are discussing. I think we should be looking at more positive aspects.

In that way, we must remember what we heard from witnesses and what we had already heard. This is not the first time the stakeholders have looked into this matter and had an opportunity to appear before the committee to testify or to explain their viewpoint on the subject.

Having the will is one thing, but if there is no openness that goes with it, there may be a problem. This can be seen in various issues, such as cutting RCMP detachments in certain regions. There is the will, in theory, to improve people's safety and security, but instead of openness, this situation is closed tight when one sees what is really happening in the field.

Like a number of other areas, the Îles-de-la-Madeleine is not an appropriate place to cut out a service. The situation on the islands is such that the doors are being opened wide to criminals. The islands will soon be a prime destination for crime, and so will the rest of Quebec.

This also illustrates, it is easy to say, that words can often give us the impression we are getting close to a solution, but we must watch carefully to see that words are followed by actions. We must be very vigilant in cases where words can also mean actions that might come later. That is why the real political will on this matter will have to be carefully weighed.

We must not forget the responsibility of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, but I think we should also rely on the good will shown by the people in British Columbia.

In closing, I want to thank the people in B.C. for their welcome. I may have an opportunity to accept a personal invitation from one of the aboriginal groups to come and see with my own eyes just what is happening. Things on paper may look fine; meeting people is interesting; but I think that going to see what is really happening will provide me with a better understanding and enable me to take better action.

That is why I appreciated this trip very much, despite the short time available. I was not part of the problem, but in the coming weeks and months I hope to be part of the solution.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, as the member of Parliament for Langley, which is a community on the Fraser River, I am proud to address this most serious issue in the House of Commons today.

If we are to discover the root causes of the 2004 Fraser River sockeye salmon disaster, which is a very appropriate word, the department's fisheries management practices must be exposed by a judicial inquiry bestowed with the powers and independence found in the Inquiries Act, which includes witness testimony under oath.

What we must avoid is a time-consuming toothless review that is beholden to the minister for its authority. Our government tried this approach in 1992 and 1994 following similar salmon stock depletions and look where we find ourselves today.

A judicial inquiry is a must and to not have it would be, in my opinion, a serious dereliction of duty by the Government of Canada on behalf of the people, especially those whose survival hinges on the fishery, including aboriginal peoples.

The facts are that out of a total count run of 4.4 million, more than 1.8 million salmon disappeared from where they were counted at the counting station on the lower Fraser at Mission this year and the spawning beds upstream.

Four major factors are being touted as the cause or causes for the 1.8 million missing salmon: first, warm water; second, a miscount; third, overfishing at sea; and fourth, overfishing and poaching in the river.

I would like to discuss these issues and bring to the attention of the House another factor that may have played a role, which is silt buildup, a significant problem in the Fraser River through Langley and Maple Ridge and may have contributed to the warm water theory.

Finally, it cannot be ignored that the common denominator for all these factors, including the warm water theory, is to some degree the mismanagement by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

Mr. Speaker, I forgot to mention that I will be splitting my time.

The DFO has claimed that unusually high water temperatures in the Fraser kill some sockeye by acute thermal shock or by heat induced disease. The fisheries department says that 21° Celsius is lethal to sockeye, while other data suggests a toleration point up to 24°. Due to hot weather, the Fraser River was about 4° higher than the normal of 16° this summer, resulting in high fish mortality.

While this act of God theory seems credible scientifically, we must consider that there certainly were not 1.8 million dead fish floating on the Fraser River this summer. I do not recall any sightings of dead fish on the Fraser and I live there. I ride my bike on the beautiful trails along the Fraser River and I saw no dead fish.

This issue is of particular concern to interested parties in my riding of Langley. On November 12 of this year I had the opportunity to meet with the mayor of Langley township, the Fraser River Port Authority, Fort Langley business leaders and the Kwatlen First Nations.

As a group, we toured the Bedford Channel and the Fraser River. A primary issue of concern is the man-made backup of silt deposits. The silt starts filling in from upstream where a gas pipeline was installed across the Bedford Channel. There has not been any maintenance of that channel and we now have literally changed the topography for the worse.

It is a very serious situation on the upstream tip of MacMillan Island where 10 to 15 acres of land have disappeared into the Fraser River. This slough is being caused by a change of the current in the river which is a direct result of silt buildup in the Bedford Channel. In some places the level of silt is so high it has impeded the flow of the river. I could literally wade across that channel, where usually a boat would be required.

It could also be argued that the flow is so low at some points that the salmon have difficulty passing through. They are spending more time in shallower and warmer water and this could be costing them their lives.

The silt buildup has also become a navigational problem for watercraft. The high silt levels are man-made problems. Shallow water flow means higher water temperatures in hot weather. Higher temperatures means dead fish. This is a maintenance issue. This is also a mismanagement issue.

The salmon habitat is suffering from the spread of urbanization, forestry and agriculture, yet the provincial and federal governments have no clear vision for sustaining wild stocks.

The B.C. auditor general, Wayne Strelioff, said that the province should take more aggressive action to sustain wild salmon and report on the provincial role in the management of wild salmon.

Mr. Strelioff also said that B.C.'s ability to ensure the sustainability of wild salmon is handicapped by the lack of a clear vision on priorities and the inability of the two governments to produce a common strategy or develop clear goals and objectives.

Strelioff teamed up with Canada's Auditor General who also criticized the lack of a management plan. The Auditor General's report says, “This is the fourth time since 1997 we have reported on a salmon related issue and we continue to see little progress in managing key risks”. It continues to state:

Overall, we are not satisfied with the progress made by Fisheries and Oceans Canada in responding to the recommendations we made in the three previous audits in 1997, 1999, and 2000. While many stocks are abundant, some Atlantic and Pacific salmon stocks are in trouble. We continued to identify significant gaps in managing risks.

Again, this is a mismanagement issue.

With regard to a possible miscount of the number of fish that were counted at 4.4 million by the Pacific Salmon Commission, a sonar equipped boat crosses back and forth across the river 215 times a day at Mission to provide a count of the adult fish. Did it err? A judicial inquiry would be needed to determine that.

With regard to overfishing at sea, in 1988 the public commercial fleet delivered 1.8 million in gross escapement at Mission which resulted in 1.4 million sockeye on the spawning grounds. In 2004, in staggering contrast, 2.6 million in gross escapement resulted in only 200,000 to 300,000 in the spawning grounds.

The numbers simply do not make a valid argument. If part of the blame were to lie with overfishing at sea, it would be the management of the fishery that allowed the overfishing, that would have to come under scrutiny. This is a mismanagement issue.

Now with regard to overfishing in the river itself. While DFO's regional director of fish management, Don Radford, has acknowledged that native poaching increased in 2004, it is very important for me to note that overfishing, or not reporting stocks, is not a problem that is the exclusive domain of the aboriginal fishery. Illegal fishing charges have also been laid against members of both the commercial and sports fisheries.

There are many factors that would allow for an unchecked number of salmon to disappear via that route, including that in 2004 aboriginal fishermen enjoyed legal access to fish processing plants, including two new plants in the lower Fraser aboriginal reserves, and commercial freezing operations. Aboriginal fishermen also have legal access to unscrupulous fish brokers and a legal ability to transport fish in semi-trailers across the Canada-U.S. border and into Alberta.

As well, it appears a hands-off enforcement policy in certain areas of the river also facilitated the harvest, transport and processing of unreported stocks by all fishermen.

Much blame has been laid on the wall of nets used by aboriginal gill netters on the Fraser, but it is important to realize that the drifted gillnet fisheries between Mission and Hope were authorized by DFO as part of negotiated agreements. That makes it a fisheries management problem, not an aboriginal fishery problem.

This summer, members of the B.C. Fisheries Survival Coalition in Langley staged a fisheries protest by turning their Canadian flags upside down, the universal marine message for a vessel in distress. The fishermen were protesting the apparent inequality of the aboriginal gillnet agreement which allowed for 50% of the fish caught by natives for food, social and ceremonial purposes, to be sold commercially, while other commercial fishermen have been asked to dry dock their nets. That is a mismanagement issue.

[Shawn Murphy, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans]

Mr. Speaker, the member would know about the four possible scenarios that were given by various stakeholders in British Columbia as to the cause of the very serious problem that occurred in the Fraser River with this summer's salmon run.

He has added a new dimension and I am going to ask him to elaborate on it. I did spend three days in Vancouver and I did not hear about it. I want the hon. member to be given a chance to elaborate on the silt buildup. He briefly alluded to the cause.

He also made mention of a pipeline. Who is responsible for that pipeline? Are any enhancement groups actually working on that part of the river? Also, does this cause the temperatures to go down and, if so, all the way through the river? Perhaps he could elaborate. I did not hear that during the three days of testimony in British Columbia.