Debates of Feb. 11th, 2004

Auditor General's Report

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, we are not talking about blind trust today, we are talking about a blind eye turned by the Prime Minister.

The Prime Minister likes to pride himself on his business acumen. If he ran CSL the way he ran his department, CSL would be a bankrupt company. Now we are talking about a morally bankrupt government.

Why did the Prime Minister not stand up and say something? Was that stoney silence a result of the fact that he was so anxious to be the Prime Minister that he turned a blind eye to all the corruption that the government was involved in?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, there was a very sophisticated cover-up that was taken on by this small group who did this. Those people were not going to come to the government and say that they were breaking every rule in the book. What they did do was, for a couple of years, basically put this by; however, as soon as the rumours began there was an internal study done.

When that internal study was done, it was turned over to the Auditor General who then completed her report. The former minister of public works acted. We acted on December 12 and we have now brought down the most comprehensive response that any government--

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Laurier--Sainte-Marie.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister was Jean Chrétien's finance minister when the sponsorship program was created in the aftermath of the referendum. The Prime Minister was the keeper of the public purse when the worst spending excesses were taking place in the name of Canadian unity and to benefit the Liberal Party and its cronies.

How can the Prime Minister say today that he knew nothing of the sponsorship scandal, when he was the number two man in the Chrétien government?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General has made it very clear that it was a small group of people within Public Works who broke the law and got around the rules.

That said, they did not ask our permission to do so. They did what they did under cover, but eventually there were some rumours. There was an internal investigation; once its findings were provided to the Auditor General, she carried out her investigation, and the government took action. We took action as soon as the Auditor General produced her report.

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Laurier—Sainte-Marie.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I was just on a radio show with the Auditor General. She said on the air that she had some doubts about no one in government being aware of this. She went on to say that she could not understand how that could be the case. She wondered how certain people in government—the Prime Minister, for instance—could not have known. She had doubts about that. This is what she said, and the minister heard her as well as I did.

The Prime Minister is buddy-buddy with the Liberal family, which includes his friends in charge of crown corporations, of groups such as—

[The Speaker]

The right hon. Prime Minister.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, she did not say “ministers”. The Leader of the Opposition could at least tell the truth in the House.

Second, clearly the little group involved hid what it was doing. Eventually, there were rumours. When these became known, there was an internal audit; after that, the matter was handed over to the Auditor General, who took action. We also took action, first on December 12 and then with the plan announced yesterday.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in this House in May 2000, my colleague, the hon. member for Rimouski-Neigette-et-la Mitis, raised the first instance of the use of front men in the federal government's communications contracts. The Bloc Quebecois did so again in June 2000, at the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology.

We asked questions in the House on May 7, 2001, May 9, 2001, and in March 2002. In all, the Bloc Quebecois has asked 441 questions about the sponsorship scandal.

How dare the Prime Minister claim that he did not know?

[Stephen Owen, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, I am glad to know that members of the opposition consulted the public works website where in the fall of 2000 the internal audit was posted and raised some of these questions. Following that, the internal small branch involving about 14 people was closed down.

Internal audits were completed. Referrals were made to the Auditor General and the RCMP. My predecessor made significant changes to the whole sponsorship program, and on December 12 of last year the program was shut down on the first day of business of this government.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in addition to the 441 questions asked by the Bloc Quebecois, on May 9, 2001 the Globe and Mail had a full article on the scandals that were beginning to surface. The Prime Minister does read the Globe and Mail , I assume. After that, all the newspapers— La Presse , Le Devoir , Le Journal de Montréal —were talking about it. I hope the Prime Minister reads one of them. They reported that there was a scandal in the government.

How does the Prime Minister dare to tell the world, without blushing, that he did not know?

[Stephen Owen, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, the government of the day was paying attention to those questions and to the insinuations that were raised, which is why the contracting provisions were changed to cut out commissions and only pay services on an hourly rate; that is why the procurement process was segregated from the contract management process; that is why the competitive processes and rules of government were strictly followed from then on; and that is why eventually the program was shut down altogether.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

I thought I had seen it all during the Mulroney Conservative years but I want to assure the Liberals that they have regained the title when it comes to scandals.

The Prime Minister says that he wants to get to the bottom of it. We agree.

Will the Prime Minister announce a retroactive amnesty for all civil servants who may have something to say about Liberal troughing, yes or no?

[Reg Alcock, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board]

Mr. Speaker, let me see if I am understanding this correctly. Is he talking about retroactive amnesty for actions that have not yet been undertaken? I am not certain what the member is talking about. I cannot tell him.

As a member of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, we worked hard on this issue. The member for Winnipeg Centre, along with members from the then Alliance and in fact a member of the Bloc, who has since then seen the light, worked hard on recommendations that we put before the House in a report on this very issue.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, everybody else knows what I mean, including the member for Winnipeg Centre.

We have drug investigations in B.C. The Quebec wing of the Liberal Party may have been operating on the proceeds of crime. At this rate Flat Mark will be up for investigation before we know it.

My question is for the Prime Minister. It is not just what is happening in the Liberal Party, it is that coziness with the corporate elite in this country. Will the Prime Minister do the right thing and fire every corporate lobbyist in the PMO right now before he sells out the country to them?

[Reg Alcock, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board]

Mr. Speaker, rather than spending time with issues such as Flat Mark, we might want to spend a little time on whistleblowing.

The member for Winnipeg Centre was a leader on this issue in the committee last year. We are working on translating that into legislation which will be put before the House very soon.

I would encourage the member to engage with this and let us produce the finest whistleblowing legislation in the world.

[Leon Benoit, Canadian Alliance, Lakeland, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

Is it not interesting that yesterday the Prime Minister knew nothing about this whole affair and today he seems to know all about it, including who this little group is that is responsible for this?

Would the Prime Minister tell us who this little group is and name some names?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I would simply suggest to the hon. member that he read the Auditor General's report. She is the one who talked about the little group.

[Leon Benoit, Canadian Alliance, Lakeland, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister seems to have indicated that the probe would be allowed to extend to the Liberal Party. Will this probe be allowed to extend to the cabinet? Will the minister in fact allow this probe to get into this public inquiry, get right in to cabinet to find out who might be responsible and involved in this affair when it comes to cabinet ministers?

[Stephen Owen, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, it is well-known that the Inquiries Act gives powers to the commissioner to follow the evidence wherever it might lead. That is the intention of the government in commissioning a distinguished judge of the Superior Court of Quebec to look into these matters, to follow the evidence and go to wherever it may lead.

We have nothing to hide. We want the evidence to come out. We want the facts to come out. We will follow this wherever it goes. These hon. members will be very welcome to appear before that commission of inquiry and give any evidence they may have.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it turns out that the Liberal Party, the Liberal culture of corruption, goes everywhere. It even turns out that the RCMP were used by the Liberals to take taxpayers on what amounts to a big musical ride.

How can the RCMP investigate the Liberal scandal when the RCMP have been compromised by the Liberal Party?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

In fact, Mr. Speaker, as the Auditor General herself has noted, the RCMP unit assigned to investigate the sponsorship issues is a different unit from that which applied for and received funding for the 125th anniversary.

However the RCMP took additional steps to ensure that its conduct was appropriate. It sought an outside opinion by an eminent former judge to look at the very question of whether its conduct in the matter was appropriate.

In addition to that, it has informed the Quebec attorney general of its involvement in the--

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Medicine Hat.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, a different unit amounts to a distinction without a difference.

The problem is that the Liberals know absolutely no shame. It is incredible that they would sully the name and the reputation of the RCMP simply so they could reward their Liberal friends.

How in the world can the RCMP investigate this mess now that the Liberals have dragged the RCMP right into the middle of it?