Debates of Feb. 23rd, 2004

National Defence

[David Pratt, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, I am not going to accuse anyone of lying, but what I will say is that the leader of the NDP has failed in his obligation to tell Canadians the truth about missile defence.

We have had a number of instances where the NDP has exaggerated facts about the missile defence system. The $1 trillion price tag is an example, as is the fact that the NDP believes these missiles are going to be nuclear tipped, which is absolutely absurd.

The U.S. policy on missile defence has absolutely nothing to do with the weaponization of space. The NDP seems to ignore that.

Sponsorship Program

[James Moore, Canadian Alliance, Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister does not appear to have the public's confidence as a true government leader. The Prime Minister is an expert at blaming others. He has blamed Alfonso Gagliano, the former prime minister, the bureaucracy, and now the heads of crown corporations.

What we want to know is whether he will apply to ministers of his government the same standards applied to Alfonso Gagliano, if ministers of his government are involved in this despicable scandal.

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Mr. Speaker, far from blaming people, in fact what the Prime Minister has done is put in place a number of processes by which we can all find out what happened here. As the Prime Minister has indicated and as we have all indicated, whether it is the public accounts committee or the public inquiry, ministers of the government are willing to come forward and are willing to appear before these committees.

[James Moore, Canadian Alliance, Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is not pointing fingers; I suppose that is why Alfonso Gagliano is not the ambassador any more, because he is not jumping to any conclusions.

What I want to know and what Canadians want to know is if the Prime Minister wants to clean up the appearance of conflict, scandal and this Liberal money laundering scheme. He knew about this scandal. He had the Auditor General's report in hand on December 12 and he did precisely nothing. He got rid of the program for the future but he did nothing to clean up the mess until a couple of weeks ago because he thought he could run up the date, call a quick election and muddy this over.

If he wants to clean up the appearance here, why did he not do anything on December 12, and will he get accountability here?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Mr. Speaker, you would know much better than I would, but I believe that until the Auditor General's report was tabled in the House we would in fact have run the risk of being found in contempt of Parliament by you, Mr. Speaker.

Let me reassure everyone in the House that upon minutes of the tabling of that report, we saw what the Prime Minister did. He put in place a series of measures, including a public inquiry. He asked the public accounts committee to constitute itself quickly. We are introducing whistleblower legislation. We have begun a review of the Financial Administration Act. He asked the President of the Treasury Board to--

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Medicine Hat.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it was up to the government to recall Parliament early. It could have done that and we could have had the government get on with dealing with this problem a long time ago.

A few minutes ago the President of the Treasury Board said that he is reviewing the heads of the crown corporations. I thought the public inquiry was going to do all of this.

How much confidence can we really have when we find out that the government is going to deal with this problem by having Liberals investigate Liberals?

[Reg Alcock, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board]

Mr. Speaker, in the instructions that I received from the Prime Minister, I was not asked to replace the work that is done in the public inquiry and I am not doing that.

I said very clearly that the public inquiry will deal with the issues that it will deal with. Unfortunately, or fortunately, we have people in charge of these crown corporations who serve at pleasure who were there at the time that these acts took place. I have been asked to evaluate whether they have taken appropriate steps to satisfy the concerns that were raised by the Auditor General that would enable them to stay in control until such time as the public inquiry has done its work.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I do not think that answer will wash with the public.

The public wants to know that the public inquiry is dealing with this. What we do not want is the Treasury Board president and the Prime Minister hanging out Chrétien loyalists to dry while covering his own tracks and the tracks of all those people involved in his party and supporting him.

Why is it that we are investigating Chrétien loyalists, but people such as the former president of the Treasury Board and his current communications director get to sit around the cabinet table and continue to talk about this?

[Reg Alcock, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board]

Mr. Speaker, the member might want to consult the person who sits up the bench from him who was taking exactly the opposite position a few minutes ago.

We are not investigating anyone. What we are looking at is the response of the crown corporations leadership to the concerns raised by the Auditor General. The Prime Minister has asked me to assure him that the management of the crowns have taken the concerns seriously and have put in place measures to address the concerns that were raised. That is all.

Budgetary Surplus

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as he left the finance ministers' meeting last week, P.E.I.'s finance minister said that having attended 18 such meetings in the past, this one was the most disappointing. These comments were echoed by Quebec's finance minister, who predicts a deficit in Quebec if Ottawa refuses to budge and transfer part of its budgetary surplus.

How can the Prime Minister say he wants to address the problem of health care when he was completely off-target at the finance ministers' meeting?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, in the period that we are now in, we are in the process of the renewal of the equalization formula.

I am pleased to say that the Government of Canada has worked very hard on the arithmetic. We have a proposal that would increase the value of equalization by some $1.3 billion over the course of the next five years.

I have undertaken in my conversation with the finance ministers on Friday to see if there are some other ways in which that arithmetic could be improved further. I would point out that is $1.3 billion on top of about $9 billion that flows every year through equalization.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the big priority for everyone is health care, and Quebec's finance minister reiterated this at the end of the finance ministers' meeting. Quebec and the provinces need financial support.

How can the Prime Minister enter into discussions with the municipalities, as he did today for instance, when the big priority is health, and the finance ministers left empty-handed despite an estimated surplus between $7 billion and $8 billion here in Ottawa?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the finance ministers of the provinces generally said to me that they thought health care was the leading priority.

Their first priority was to get the $2 billion that had been committed conditionally last year. That of course has been done, $2 billion, and it is the subject of legislation in the House right at this moment. This will make sure that the provinces can receive those funds, each one of them within the fiscal year that is most advantageous to them.

On top of that, the first ministers have all agreed on a process leading toward greater sustainability in health care to be pursued this spring and summer.

Foreign Affairs

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-De- Beaupré—Île-D'Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, despite the presence of an international mission in which Canada plays a part, the situation in Haiti is becoming an increasing source of concern, as we receive confirmation that the rebels have taken over Cap Haïtien, the second largest city in that country.

What plans does Canada have to respond to this rapidly changing situation?

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member knows, the minister responsible for la Francophonie travelled to Haiti this past weekend. I myself have spoken with Mr. Powell and other leaders in the region. We are monitoring the situation closely. We belive that a political solution is necessary if any intervention is to succeed in the long term. We are continuing to consult all members of the community of the Americas to ensure that any intervention in Haiti would be successful in resolving this problem, which is so difficult for our hemisphere in the long term.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-De- Beaupré—Île-D'Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the reality is that we are dealing with a civil war and an unprecedented humanitarian crisis, and the situation could deteriorate further.

Does Canada, along with the other states involved, intend to explore other avenues in order to avoid the irreversible solution of sending an implementation force?

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated, we are looking at all the possibilities. We feel we have a duty to protect people's lives, while at the same time seeking a long term solution.

Canada cannot act alone. We will be working in conjunction with the United States, CARICOM, and the Francophonie to resolve the problem in Haiti, a problem that concerns the entire international community. We are continuing with our policy in this respect.

Sponsorship Program

[Jason Kenney, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is letting the rumour spread that he is going to fire the heads of the crown corporations involved in the sponsorship scandal. It is obvious, however, that they did not act on their own, but rather followed the orders of their political bosses.

Why does the Prime Minister not admit that he was one of those big political bosses himself, and when will he stop blaming other people for his own incompetence as finance minister?

[Reg Alcock, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board]

Mr. Speaker, one more time, nobody is blaming anybody. What the Prime Minister has asked me to do is to look at the management of the crowns, given that some of the people who serve at pleasure in positions were there at the time that these incidents took place some years ago. He has asked me to make an evaluation, have they taken it seriously and have they put in place the systems that prevent a reoccurrence so that he can continue to have confidence in them.

This is not about blame. It is not about the work of the inquiry. It is about the simple examination of individuals who serve at pleasure.

[Jason Kenney, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Talk about incompetence, Mr. Speaker. First he said that they are not blaming anybody, after the Prime Minister blamed a secret cabal of 14 functionaries and then blamed the former prime minister. The minister a minute ago started by saying that they are investigating the heads of the crowns. Then he said that they are not investigating. Now he said that they are merely examining them. What the heck is he talking about?

We want to know why the government put Liberal lapdogs in charge of these big crown corporations in the first place so that they were susceptible to precisely the kind of political influence which led to this scandal.

[Reg Alcock, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board]

One more time, Mr. Speaker, it is guilt by association that seems to be the standard to which that side has risen right now.

The Prime Minister has taken a very responsible position. He has asked me to exercise due diligence because he cares about the quality of management and he expects people to respond. He is doing exactly what anyone would expect a responsible prime minister to do.

[Rahim Jaffer, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Speaker, this is why the Prime Minister is on a road show and dodging his responsibility here in the House.

This scandal is more about the rogue bunch of bandits in the civil service.

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Edmonton—Strathcona is treading very close to the line. He knows that he cannot refer to the absence of members, which I sense he was doing with that comment. I do not know what constitutes a road show in his definition, but he will want to be very prudent in his choice of words.

[Rahim Jaffer, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I guess we will have to put his picture on a milk carton.

The Privy Council Office works hand in hand with the PMO to service its political masters around the cabinet table. It is simply not possible that rogue bureaucrats could act without cabinet ministers in the know.

If the Prime Minister is indeed going after those bureaucrats in the PCO, will he also go after those cabinet ministers who directed those bureaucrats to steal that money from Canadian taxpayers?