Debates of Feb. 4th, 2004

Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy

[Bob Speller, Liberal, Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant, ON]

Mr. Chair, I would tend to differ with what the hon. member was saying. The Government of Canada has responded with programs for Canadian farmers and farm families that have been affected.

As he knows, $520 million was put into the BSE program. We also had the culled cow program, which was another $120 million. As members know, dollars have been flowing through the $600 million of the transition money that will help out. Obviously farmers are closing out their NISAs, those who have them, and there are dollars there that are flowing into it. There are also dollars, as hon. members would know, that people are able to get through the CAISP. These are dollars that are helping out the situation and these are dollars that are useful.

As I have said, if those dollars are not enough, if in fact this drags on and there is a greater problem, then I will go back to the Government of Canada and say that more needs to be done. However, until we get to that point, until we see how these dollars work through, until we can get a firm date in terms of opening the border, these will be the dollars that will be available to farmers.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Chair, I thank the minister for being here tonight, especially because of the serious problem we have in the country.

I was talking with a group of dairy farmers and feedlot operators. After listening to this debate tonight in Parliament, what do I say to a farmer like David Whelton who has been a farmer for a long time and is now losing his shirt?

I am sure that David Whelton and his friends and colleagues in the farming industry will understand and agree that what the minister is doing in trying to open the border is a great thing. However, what they want to know is what do they do in the short term when they do not fit in the program and will be closing down probably in the weeks coming up. What do we say to those farmers and their families?

What do we say to those farmers who used to get $1,600 for one cow and today get $300 or $500 a cow even though steaks still sell at the super value for the same price? Farmers want to know what is happening to the money from the government? They want to know why it is only the packing industry that is getting it and not the farmers when the farmers are the ones losing their shirts? I would like the minister to answer that.

The farmers want to know what they are going to do in the short term? That is the question they want the minister to answer tonight.

[Bob Speller, Liberal, Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant, ON]

Mr. Chair, there is no question, and I am sure all hon. members would agree, that many farmers and farm families are suffering because of this and the fact that the programs the Government of Canada and the different provinces provide will not impact every single farmer across the country. There is no question that farmers, such as the one the member talked about, are at risk. Banks are there and they are calling on them.

Next week I will be meeting with some of the banks to talk to them. I will be meeting with groups, such as the Farm Credit Corporation, and other groups that are there holding them. I will try to give them assurances that the Government of Canada is doing everything that it can to open up the border and to speed this along quickly, and to give them the assurance that these farmers should be able to carry on.

I cannot tell the House tonight that I can do something to save every farmer in the country but I can say that the Government of Canada recognizes the problem and it will do whatever it can to help deal with the impact this is having on farmers and farm families.

[Murray Calder, Liberal, Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey, ON]

Mr. Chair, I think part of the key to this situation is the OIE. In 1997 we came in with legislation that basically a cow cannot eat a cow. In 1998 we came in with the tagging system, which is the tracing and tracking system that we have across the country. In 2003 we came in with legislation saying that there could not be any more neural matter put into rendering.

We have changed a lot of the process of how we do things within the beef industry here. What is the chance of us going to the OIE to change the rules there? I believe that is the issue of getting the border opened quickly.

[Bob Speller, Liberal, Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant, ON]

Mr. Chair, I want to tell the hon. member that we have moved along with both the United States and Mexico in order to get changes at the OIE, to have it recognize that here in Canada and in the United States we have a different situation from what was the case for instance in Europe, and that we should not be treated that way.

We have approached OIE and we will be meeting with it shortly where we will work with other like-minded countries to try to get the OIE to change its rules to reflect the fact that a minimal situation, such as the one in Canada and United States, should be treated differently from other countries, such as the situation that happened in Europe.

[Carol Skelton, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Chair, the minister keeps saying over and over that this is science based. We have a lot of livestock besides the beef and dairy animals.

I would like to know if he spoke to the government of the United States and the other governments in the countries to which he travelled about the importing of these other animals into the United States and about when the border will be opening to the other animals.

[Bob Speller, Liberal, Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant, ON]

Mr. Chair, we believe, as I have said before, that the science shows that these animals are of no risk. We have let that be known to these other countries, particularly to the United States and Mexico. We have officials working with them to try to work through this. This goes to a number of different areas. It is not just for beef or live cattle.

I agree that there are a number of different animals that should not be impacted by this but are picked up by the general border closing. We are trying to work through it with science-based arguments and based on what we found at the OIE to make sure these countries recognize this. We take very seriously the impact this is having on these other commodities also.

[Marcel Gagnon, Bloc, Champlain, QC]

Mr. Chair, I find this debate interesting but somewhat discouraging. I put myself in the place of the farmer who is struggling with a painful financial situation and who hears that we are travelling and that we will improve the situation in the future.

But what are we going to do now? There are people who are at the end of their rope, who may not get through the winter, and who cannot afford to lose money the way they are losing it now. The question is this: while we are, understandably, working to improve the medium- and long-term outcome, what can we put on the table right now? What will we give to the farmers so they can get through the winter, so they are able to wait until things get better, while we are working on improving the situation?

A farmer came up to me and said, “Listen, they are giving us $1 a day to feed our animals, but since we need more and more feed, and since we cannot sell the cattle but have to give them away, that dollar is not worth anything”. Rising costs wipe out that dollar and more.

And therefore, I ask this of the minister. In this emergency, on behalf of the farmers who are at the end of their rope, what can we do? Is the minister prepared to lobby to get some money put on the table in order to help the farmers, who are not in any way responsible for the current crisis?

[Bob Speller, Liberal, Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant, ON]

Mr. Chair, I will repeat what I said before. In fact, we have brought out programs to help farmers: $520 million in the BSE program and $120 million in a cull cow program. We also have farmers receiving money through the $600 million transition funding that the Government of Canada brought out, recognizing that we needed to transition between the old programs and the new APF. We also have farmers who are able to draw on the CAISP money. I have asked my officials to make sure that money now available can actually get out to farmers as quickly as possible, because we do recognize that it is tough for a lot of farmers in this country.

As all hon. members know, the beef industry is down, as things are even for farmers who have other commodities. The pork industry is down. I was out east the other day and the potato industry is having some of its lowest prices. These are difficult times for Canadian farmers. I want to give them my assurance that the Government of Canada recognizes this and that we are prepared to work with them, with the farm leadership, to try to respond in a way that recognizes the troubles they are going through.

[The Chair]

As we go into the final 10 minutes, with the ongoing cooperation of members we will get in as many as possible.

I will begin with the hon. member for Delta—South Richmond.

[John M. Cummins, Canadian Alliance, Delta—South Richmond, BC]

Mr. Chair, this is an important issue and not only for the agricultural industry. It also has implications elsewhere, including the fishing industry. Surimi is a fish product that is used to make artificial crab and shrimp. It is manufactured using beef plasma. Foreign buyers are not interested in buying Canadian surimi at this time. In Ucluelet on the west coast of Vancouver Island, the fish plant is shut down because they are unable to export, throwing 140 people out of work. I wonder if the minister is aware of this problem and of the extent of this problem. What does he intend to do about it?

[Bob Speller, Liberal, Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant, ON]

Mr. Chair, I thank the hon. member for bringing this problem to my attention. I think it is also important for hon. members to recognize that there are other products like that and that companies are being impacted. I will tell the hon. member that we will continue to support Canadian industries that are being impacted, and we will continue to work, through science, to make sure the other countries recognize that in fact these products should not pose any risk to their health.

I want to say to the hon. member across the way who keeps asking “how?” that the best way we could do this would be to get scientists to explain to them--

[An hon. member]

How?

[Bob Speller, Liberal, Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant, ON]

I will be interested in learning later how the hon. member expects us to just tell them and in fact demand that they open the border.

We have people from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency and people in our embassies and high commissions around the world who are working day and night in other countries, talking to them about the science and helping them make the decision to open up the border. This is a serious issue. It is one that is taken seriously by a number of departments in this government that are working very hard to get that border open.

I certainly look forward to what the hon. member has to say about how he expects to be able to open up the border.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Chair, I have two very brief, non-inflammatory questions. Back in October when he was running for the Liberal leadership, the Prime Minister met with the Canadian Beef Export Federation. According to the Red Deer Express , Mr. Thorlakson, the chair of the export federation, said:

I thought he showed a real concern for the issues. He made a commitment that he was strongly supportive of some type of program for cull cattle.

So my first question is, has he given the new minister of agriculture any direction on implementing a program for cull cattle?

My other question comes from the Moose Jaw meat plant. People who work at that plant were less than impressed upon learning that Canadian soldiers serving in Afghanistan were consuming American beef until the quarantine went into effect. They want to know why, at a time when 34 countries had closed the door to Canadian beef and it was difficult to move that beef, no extra effort was made to get beef for the Canadian military from this country as opposed to the United States.

[Bob Speller, Liberal, Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant, ON]

Mr. Chair, as the hon. member said, the Prime Minister gave a commitment, and as he knows, we do have a cull cow program. We have $120 million put into it. I have asked my officials to look at it to see whether or not it is in fact working. If we need to make changes to get it working, then we will make those changes.

In terms of the whole question of American beef going to Canadians overseas, as I believe the hon. member knows--and this is an important point--these contracts are put out on a North American basis. For instance, the Americans eat ice cream from Canada.

They were the lowest bidder on this contract, so the beef went to a United States supplier. These things are put out on contracts because of NAFTA; we are able to contract into the American forces in a number of different areas. The fact that it came from the United States was a surprise to a lot of Canadians, but this is something we need to recognize. This is a North American industry. It should not be a surprise that how it is eventually sold down the line is in a North American manner also.

[Andy Savoy, Liberal, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Mr. Chair, my riding is in the situation that the minister alluded to. I had the honour of having him tour my riding last week. In my riding, we have a diversified farm situation. We have potatoes, grain, dairy and cattle. As many members in the House know, these industries are all in crisis now. They are all having very difficult times. There is a huge surplus in potatoes, so the price is down. The price is down for grain. Obviously we have the BSE situation with our beef.

I thank the minister for touring the riding. I make note to the House that my riding is a varied situation, and beef is certainly in crisis, but the entire agriculture sector in our region is in crisis.

I think something should be pointed out, though, in terms of the response that Canadians have had to BSE. Canadians have rallied behind our farmers. I think it is a real testament to us as Canadians. Not only do we know that Canadian beef is safe, but we knew then that there was a time of crisis and consumption went through the roof in response to that crisis. That is a real testament to Canadians.

Farmers have noted that under the CAISP program, a potential solution for the suffering and the pain, the negative margins will help. I know that the federal government is in negotiations with various provinces. How are those negotiations going? Could the minister report to the House on those negotiations?

[Bob Speller, Liberal, Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant, ON]

Mr. Chair, before I give my answer I hope that this half hour did not take time away from a Liberal member. I hope that was agreed on beforehand.

What I would like to do in terms of answering this question is recognize the fact that prior to the signing on of Saskatchewan, we had Ontario, Saskatchewan and Prince Edward Island agree to an amendment to the agreement, which talked about negative margins, negative margins which I think will help a number of industries.

It is an agreement that we are now talking to other provinces about. We hope that all the provinces will sign on to this. I think it will help farmers in this situation.

[The Chair]

Obviously I am not going to be able to accommodate everyone. I am quite willing to try something, though.

Mr. Minister, if you will cooperate, I will give each member one minute.

You can take notes and summarize after.

I will start with the member for Provencher, for one minute.

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Chair, I am concerned about the announcement by the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-food that Canada would not ban the feeding of cattle blood to cattle despite the fact that the U.S. department of agriculture has done that. I am worried as to whether that refusal to ban the feeding of blood will not in fact isolate Canada on the BSE issue and make it impossible for us to reopen our boundaries and borders to that international trade.

[David Anderson, Canadian Alliance, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Chair, we have no plan so far to deal with the cull cows. We have no new slaughter facilities. We have no feed regulations dealing with rendered feed. We have no investigation of the packers. And our borders are still closed.

The question I want to ask of the minister is this. On the new compensation plan, the packers are now lowering their prices by 10¢ to 20¢ per pound and the farmers are coming in and losing that money. I want to know what the minister is doing to ensure that the money is going to end up in the producer's hands, not in the packer's as it did in the last program.

[Myron Thompson, Canadian Alliance, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Chair, the Alberta producers have been unable to access any funds because of no agreement between the feds and the provincial governments, so I am really wondering when Canadian and Alberta farmers can expect any access to these federal funds. Secondly, is there any possibility that these forms that are required to be filled in could be condensed in such a nature that the average guy can handle them rather quickly without having to hire accountants or a lawyer to help fill them in? I have seen some of the forms that the government has asked these people to fill in and it is ridiculous.

[Rick Casson, Canadian Alliance, Lethbridge, AB]

Mr. Chair, I will make it very quick. I have two specific questions. One, will the minister include BSE in the definition of natural disaster so that the return on the reference margins will be higher? I think that would be a great move by the government. Also, the other issue is the recognition of the U.S. herd and the health of that herd. Producers heard last week down at the NCBA conference in Phoenix, Arizona that if this government does not allow year round importation of U.S. feeder cattle into Canada, the NCBA will drag its feet and hold up the opening of the border.

[Gary Schellenberger, Progressive Conservative, Perth—Middlesex, ON]

Mr. Chair, we have already touched on the Canadian beef to Kabul. I look at it from a business point of view. If we are talking science, how do we expect the Americans to take our science when we do not take their science? Rib-eye steaks, inside round, outside round, and those kinds of things are being quarantined. I just hope that there has been a directive given to all the Canadians vacationing in Florida and Arizona, et cetera, not to eat American beef, no T-bone steaks or prime rib, and no burgers. In Canada, do we know the age of the beef we eat?

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, QC]

Mr. Chair, over the past 10 years Canada has tested 7,200 animals. The minister announced that 8,000 animals would be tested in 2004 and that we are heading towards testing 30,000 animals in the next five years.

Considering that the Europeans, for example, tested 19 million animals in 2003, and that all the animals in England, France and Japan are tested, does he not think that testing 8,000 animals is rather minimal when it comes to restoring the confidence of Canadian beef importers?

I have a second supplementary. He did not specify earlier when I talked about monitoring and a separate inspection system for each region of Canada, but what exactly made him refuse?