Debates of Feb. 3rd, 2005

Supply

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food (Rural Development)]

Madam Speaker, I listened intently for solutions from the member opposite but I never heard them.

I stand here absolutely amazed at the gall of the opposition in terms of how it tries to play political games with farmers' lives. That is basically what it is trying to do. If anything, it should be recognizing that the minister has not tried to put a spin on the numbers. He has admitted that there is a problem in terms of agriculture.

In terms of the returns from the marketplace, I would agree with the hon. member on the point that returns from the marketplace to primary producers are in the negative area but they have been declining for 25 years.

In terms of the safety net program, the minister asked his provincial colleagues in July to look at the issue to see what options were available in terms of CAIS. The opposition members can play all the games they want but in this country we operate under federal-provincial agreements. They should stand and admit that it requires a change in the federal-provincial agreements instead of misleading the farm community and saying that the minister on his own can change it, when he cannot. They know differently.

Let me make another point. The member opposite talked about subsidies in other areas actually improving farm incomes. The fact is that farm incomes are going down around the world. A good marketing institution that maximizes returns to primary producers is the Canadian Wheat Board. It has been proven as such, but the Conservative Party wants to do away with it. It consistently attacks supply management, which has been a marketing institution that challenges the marketplace in the interest of primary producers.

Yes, the government is looking at the CAIS program, which the minister initiated in July, but it has to work at it federally and provincially. What is that party really saying in terms of dealing with--

[Jay Hill, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Just for the record, I wonder if you would check the seating plan for the House because I believe the rules of the House state very clearly that the member must be in his own seat when he is addressing the chamber. I think he is in default of the rules of the House of Commons.

[The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)]

Procedurally, the member is correct. Would the parliamentary secretary now put his question?

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Madam Speaker, as I said, the CAIS deposit is being looked at. It is a safety net. What do the members on the other side propose to deal with the real problem which is income from the marketplace to producers? We are working with industry to try to find solutions. What are they proposing?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Madam Speaker, we recognize that the parliamentary secretary has not always been sure where he stands on these issues, and now we have seen it.

I am delighted to hear that both the minister and the parliamentary secretary acknowledge that the CAIS program is not working. This is good news. This is progress. At least they are starting to look at it. My concern is that they are going to look at it too long. We were supposed to have a mandated review of CAIS starting two months ago and it has not started yet. Looking at it is not going to fix it. We have to take action. Things have to be done. We have to get rid of the program.

My leader today described a program that we are recommending, one that is two tier, where we have not only a safety net program in terms of income support for the regular flux and flow of business, but also a disaster relief program. This does not exist at the present time. We have had too many crises in agriculture in the last few years where systems are needed but the plan is not there to deal with them. Who is left holding the empty money bag? It is our producers. This is unacceptable. The government is responsible for providing solutions.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to reply to the supply motion brought forward by the opposition.

As I said in my question to the Leader of the Opposition, I do not agree with a large part of the motion for a number of reasons. However there is a portion of the motion that I feel is important, which is that we should be dealing with farm income programs and that we should be dealing with the support we provide to producers on an ongoing basis, to refine it and to make it as effective as we possibly can. I have been doing that since I became the minister last July. I am not doing it in the way suggested by the hon. member, to just, by a fiat, have something changed, but rather by doing it according to the Constitution.

Agriculture is a federal-provincial responsibility and, of course, I work with my provincial colleagues, as well as, and this is very critical, working with members of the industry.

However let us try to understand what the motion is all about. It is not about the opposition trying to help producers. If it were about that, there would be solutions in it, but they are not there. It is not about trying to actually get something done, because if it were the opposition would have suggested a process that would need to be employed to get it done. But no, it has not made that suggestion. It has suggested something that is not possible to do.

Why would the opposition suggest that? It is because this is not about helping producers, not about the commitment that the government has to help producers in this country, which we demonstrate day in and day out, no, it is about pure, unadulterated politics. First, not helping producers, that is simply not factually correct. I will demonstrate clearly that we do that.

In terms of dealing with the options around CAIS, trying to purport that nothing has been done on that, that all of a sudden one day the opposition walked into the House and for the first time wanted to have it discussed and dealt with and that this had to do with the fact that the opposition one day woke up, that is rubbish. The reality is that on this side of the House we have been dealing with these issues that are important to our producers on an ongoing basis day in and day out. That is the absolute reality.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

How is it working? It is not working. Lead or be led.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Listen to them cackling over there, Madam Speaker. They are obviously pretty excited.

The reality is that 2003 and 2004 were difficult years for Canadian producers and they deserve more than the political games that the opposition is playing here today.

The basic problem here is that the opposition just does not get it. As important as it is, and it is important, to provide support to our producers, in 2003 the government provided producers with $4.8 billion. Never in the history of this country has that kind of support been provided to our producers. The opposition members do not want to admit that. They do not want to talk about that. They do not want to deal with that because it demonstrates clearly that the government does in fact support producers.

In this current fiscal year we have provided to date well over $3 billion, but again they do not want to admit that. They do not want to talk about that because it does not fit into what their main objective is here today, which is not to help producers but to score cheap political points, which is their normal process.

The point is that opposition members do not get it. Success cannot be measured by how much the support payments are. That is important and we need to be there, but that is not the measure of success. The measure of success is what we do to create the environment that allows producers to receive from the marketplace a fair return for their labour and their investment. That is the point they miss and the point on which they make absolutely no suggestions on how to deal with it.

I have to compliment my parliamentary secretary for the work he has done. Rather than dealing with the important work the parliamentary secretary has done in respect of dealing with the long term decline in farm income in certain commodity sectors, what did the House leader deal with regarding the parliamentary secretary? He was only concerned about where he was sitting in the House, with great glee and laughter over there. Well, it is not a laughing matter. Helping producers and providing them with support is not a laughing matter. I am totally disgusted with the approach the opposition takes on that.

Let us talk a little bit about the support that producers have received. The opposition members talk specifically about the CAIS program. They say that no money has been paid out in CAIS, that no producer has been helped in CAIS and that nothing is going on in CAIS.

The reality to date is that more than $700 million have gone to producers, payments for the 2003 year will reach close to $1.5 billion and there will be similar amounts in 2004. This clearly reflects the challenges that producers faced in those years.

The opposition members then said that there was no other specific program, nothing to deal with the specific problem taking place. I want to remind the House and producers of some of the programs that have been put in place and the amounts that have been paid out. Canadians have an interest in this and I am glad that we have a chance to speak to Canadians, although I realize the opposition would prefer not to.

We paid out $830 million under the TISP, $444 million under the BSE recovery program and $106 million under the cull animal program. Our spring and fall advances are providing literally millions of dollars in assistance for our producers to operate. Our production insurance program provided $1.7 billion of coverage on those commodities covered under production insurance.

I will not disagree that it is important to continually evaluate and look at what we do and to make every attempt to do it better and as well as we can. I know opposition members would like to think that they always get it right but they do not. All of us need to constantly re-evaluate things. However to suggest that there is not a strong commitment to producers, to suggest that they are not receiving financial assistance, and most important, to suggest that we are not focused on the long term issues that face farmers is totally ludicrous and totally wrong.

There is something else the opposition forgets and something that is absolutely critical. When dealing with agriculture it is important to understand that it is a three-legged stool, that it is not just simply the federal government. And that is not to shirk the responsibility of the federal government. We take that onto our shoulders, as well we should, but in order to make this work it is a three-legged stool and if one of those legs is missing, it will not stand. This is something that needs to be done, yes, by the federal government, by the provincial government and by producers. We have been engaged with all of those parties over the last seven months to continually develop and enhance the programming that we put in place.

The hon. member talked for a minute about the announcement of the BSE recovery program back in September which was designed among other things to see a price recovery in both feeder and fed animals. What the hon. member did not say is that in fact the price for feeder animals and the price for fed animals have recovered from their lows in July as we said the program was designed to do. Are the levels at what we would like them to be? No, but they have recovered.

Producers are the best of business people in the world. Our Canadian producers produce the best in the world. They are not going to buy what the opposition is saying, that everything is wrong, that nothing works, that there is no support. What they will buy is a government that understands the challenges, a government that provides them with the assistance, and a government that works with them to enhance it even beyond the current levels.

I have said on many occasions that the CAIS program is one that provides support to producers. It is one that has been put in place in recent times. It is one that we will work on in order to ensure that there are things that will be changed. It is not as if nothing has been done since CAIS has been put in place. We saw a change with the coverage of negative margins. The opposition members are saying that nothing has been done. I would assume that means they are opposed to the coverage of negative margins.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

We are opposed to the failure of the program.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

The hon. member has just said that he is opposed to negative margins.

We have increased the cap. We have increased the total amount that can be paid under the CAIS program. We are responsive. Their deposit has been changed since the CAIS program was brought into place and yes, there is a need to deal with that particular part of the program.

Last September a member of the opposition said that the special cash advance that we were putting in place for beef producers would never work because it was tied to the CAIS program, that producers would not see a penny and nothing would ever happen. That is what the opposition said. The reality is that today $115 million has gone in the short term to cattle producers under those special CAIS advances.

I say that to point out that when the opposition members say that something is not happening, it just is not so. The reality is different. I say that with respect because, as I have said on numerous occasions, I also believe in the importance of continually evaluating what we do and continually being willing to change beyond where we have gone.

During the debate today in the House we are going to talk a lot about various components of agriculture. I look forward to engaging in that debate because there are important broad based issues that we need to deal with. However, from my perspective there are some realities we need to accept and we need to understand.

The first one is that the government is committed to producers. It has always been committed to producers. The proof is in a number of different areas, including the type of programming that we have put in place and the types of measures that we will be putting in place as we move forward. That is a reality.

Playing political games with opposition day motions is of little value. I agree with the hon. member across the way that there is work that needs to be done. Yes, it will be important that we have these discussions in the House. As I was saying to the Leader of the Opposition when he was making his earlier interventions, if he honestly believed his rhetoric that he wants to see a minority Parliament work with all parties coming together on critical issues, then he would have followed his own advice that he was providing to the government earlier in this session, which was that parties would come together and jointly develop proposals that would be put to the House so that they could gain widespread support.

The fact is they are unwilling to do that. The fact that they are unwilling to engage in those discussions with the government indicates clearly that this is about pure unadulterated politics. They are trying to score cheap political points at a time when it is totally unwarranted.

This needs to be a time about assisting producers. This has to be a time about understanding that this is all about people. It is about the men and women who go out there every day and make significant sacrifices on behalf of all Canadians. The work that our producers do is critical for Canadians whether they live in rural Canada or urban Canada. The work our producers do is critical to people whether they live in this country or whether they live in literally dozens of countries around the globe who depend on Canada's ability to grow food and to export it around the world.

That is what is critical in this debate. That is what the government is committed to. Our record clearly demonstrates that we have been doing that in the last several years. It is what we will continue to do as we move forward working with the provinces, working with the industry, working with individual producers, and working with Canadians.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food (Rural Development)]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Discussions have taken place between all parties and I believe that you will find consent for the following order:

That at the conclusion of today's debate on the opposition day motion, all questions necessary to dispose of the main motion be deemed put, a recorded division deemed requested and deferred to Tuesday, February 8, 2005 at 5:30 p.m.

[The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)]

Does the hon. member have the unanimous consent of the House to present this order?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)]

Agreed and so ordered.

[Rick Casson, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to pose questions directly to the Minister of Agriculture.

The minister commented that producers deserve better. I firmly believe that. I do believe they deserve better than to see the gamesmanship from that side of the House today.

The minister said that this is all about politics. It is not all about politics. It is about people who are struggling trying to make a living in a fashion that historically has been part of the makeup of this country and which helped to develop Canada. People are struggling and are not able to do it.

It is about the six or seven young farmers who were in my office over the Christmas break who have absolutely nowhere left to go. Their incomes are declining. Their debt proportions are going up and they do not know how they will get through this crisis. They are looking for answers.

Our party has proposed part of a solution. It is not the total answer, but it is a positive step in the right direction and we want the government to consider that.

Whether there were previous negotiations or talks is irrelevant. Here it is; let us deal with it today.

The European Union has just announced that it will subsidize two million tonnes of wheat out of the EU. It is going back to what it has done in the past, which flies in the face of what the WTO negotiations have been trying to do. I would like to ask the minister directly, what does he plan to do about that specific issue, where the European Union is taking steps that are going to absolutely decimate the price of wheat and further reduce returns to our farmers?

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the hon. member's questions. He has been a longtime advocate in the House on agriculture issues and I respect that very much.

I think I agree with the hon. member, if I understood him correctly, that the actions being contemplated by the EU are totally unacceptable. It is about saying one thing and acting in a totally different way.

In the WTO negotiations, through the framework agreement, the EU has clearly committed itself to the elimination of export subsidies. I find it very difficult to accept that on the one hand it has signed a framework agreement for the elimination of those subsidies and then in the interim period as we are working to negotiate a final agreement, it did that. I will take every opportunity to express my belief that that is inappropriate. Certainly as we engage in the WTO discussions this year we will continue to make that point. The Minister of International Trade will make that point also at the various forums he operates in.

That is why we support the process of the WTO. The government has long said that the elimination of export subsidies, the decrease in domestic supports with those who are providing the greatest domestic support providing the largest decreases and increased market access while giving Canadians the choice of their domestic marketing regimes are principles that are in the best interests of Canadian producers.

As was mentioned by the Leader of the Opposition, we export a tremendous amount of our products. Having a rules based trading system is essential. Given a level playing field, Canadian producers can compete successfully with anybody in the world.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Madam Speaker, this latest example is a good indication of the frustrations this nation has been facing when this country follows rules but others do not. Softwood lumber is another example.

Is the government looking at a comprehensive examination of the WTO and our relationship with it given this latest example with the European Union?

It is amazing that we continue to drift this way. We do not have a comprehensive review. Is the government committed to the WTO and standing by its rules while at the same time others are allowed to deviate and do what they want?

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Madam Speaker, to elaborate upon my previous answer and to continue with my answer to the member, obviously as we go through the negotiations which are slated for this year on the WTO the point will be made.

A tremendous amount of negotiation and work needs to be done to arrive at an agreement. I have said on many occasions that when we enter an agreement, in addition to achieving success on those three major pillars, some things have to happen. In my view two of them are very critical.

One is that the agreements need to be transparent. Everybody needs to understand what it is they have agreed to and particularly that Canadian producers understand exactly, and are comfortable with, what others have agreed to. The second one, and this is critical, is that the agreement needs to be measurable. That means when we have commitments from our trading partners that we can clearly see that those commitments are being honoured and that we can measure them.

Besides achieving those objectives which I believe are critical, it is important that we have an agreement that is measurable and is transparent in terms of its implementation. That is what we will be working for as we go through this year.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Madam Speaker, I found it interesting that the minister talked about Canada's obligation on trade issues.

When he was in Yorkton last month he opened up his speech with an anecdote about how his first assignment as minister was to travel to the WTO negotiations taking place in Europe. The gist of his story was that he had only been minister for three days and he had been asked to read the entire file on the seven hour flight. He did not get too many laughs because he did not know that the speaker a few time slots before him had outlined how Canada had failed to adequately negotiate these international agreements and how Canada had basically traded away the farm, so to speak. I wanted to mention that point.

I have a few specific questions for the minister.

According to the 2003 statistics for CAIS, of the 34,432 applications received, payments had been made on only some 13,000 and change. Those numbers were provided by the parliamentary secretary on his tour throughout Saskatchewan. Does the minister view that as a success? One in three applications has received payment. Those are the government's own numbers. Does he view that as a success?

We are talking about a very specific matter today. The minister's speech decried the rhetoric from the opposition side and he not once addressed the motion.

Will the government commit to actually dropping the cash on deposit requirements? He said it is a matter of federal-provincial agreements. Will he start those negotiations? Will he visit the premiers, secure the certainty that they will drop them? Will he start that today?

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Madam Speaker, there were a number of questions there, but let me start off by saying that I did address it in my speech. Obviously, the hon. member was not listening.

We have been working on this. I have been meeting with my provincial colleagues. We met in September on it. We met again at either the end of November or beginning of December here in Ottawa. I have talked to my provincial colleagues on a number of occasions and yes, we have been working on this particular issue. We continue to do it, including working with producers. Meetings have occurred as recently as last week.

We have been working on it. The point I was trying to make is that this is something that perhaps the opposition only discovered today, but it is something that the government has been working on for a long period of time.

There were two other questions. In terms of the WTO, the reality, unlike most other countries when Canada is engaged in its negotiations, is that the industry is with us. When we were in Geneva, there were some 40 representatives of the industry with us with a wide variety of approaches because there is not a uniform opinion among Canadian agriculture on exactly all the details of what our trade agreements could be.

I know from the hon. member's perspective he would like to have a nice, simple, one shoe fits all approach, but it does not work that way. These are complex issues that require us to bring together the industry into a consensus.

I would like to mention something that the hon. member should have pointed out. He talked about the processing of CAIS program applications, but what he failed to point out is that the government did at the request of producers extend the deadline to which these applications could be made until November 30. It gives producers as long as possible to make their applications and then the opportunity to process them. Of course, he did not want to mention that.

[Denise Poirier-Rivard, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Madam Speaker, do we have to say it again for the government finally to understand: Quebec farmers are facing a major income crisis.

According to the latest Statistics Canada data, in 2003, under the reign of the Liberals, agricultural income reached its lowest point in 25 years.

In 2003, net income, i.e. the difference between farm revenues and operating expenses, fell by 39.1% from the figure for 2002 to $4.44 billion.

According to the UPA, farm debt has increased on average by 207% since 1993. Between 1996 and 2001, the number of farms declined by 10% in Quebec to 32,000. Every week two farms disappear in Quebec.

The problem is that farmers are left on their own by Ottawa, that is to say, by the party in power.

Few countries neglected their farm sectors as much as Canada did when the current Prime Minister was Minister of Finance. Now more than ever, producers have less support, and at a time when agriculture is in a full-blown crisis caused by the collapse of prices and the mad cow crisis. In addition, when Ottawa does take action, it is to adopt Canada-wide measures, which fail to meet the needs of Quebec producers. We cannot say it enough: agriculture in Quebec and agriculture in Canada are different, they are organized differently, and they do not have the same needs.

According to OECD data, government support for farm incomes in Canada was US$182 per capita in 2000. The equivalent per capita figure for the same period was US$378 in the United States, US$276 in Europe, and US$289 on average in the OECD countries.

The parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Agriculture has been consulting recently in order to find out about the problems facing farmers. He needed only to listen to us. We have been telling him over and over since the House convened. I am well situated to tell you: I went through my own baptism of fire last October at the time of the famous emergency debate on the mad cow disaster.

Our party and the entire agricultural community have been telling the Liberals for months. The problems and solutions are well known. But they are not listening. All they need is to show a little public will.

The Liberals tell us over and over about their budget surpluses. The money is there, but what good is it doing? Who is benefiting? If the farmers of this country numbered among the Liberals' pals, maybe there would be some money for them, who knows?

Last year, the government accumulated a surplus of $9 billion. I remember that and our farmers remember too.

The CAIS program does not work very well. Farmers are not very enthusiastic about it. On January 22, 2004, the president of the UPA said on La Terre de chez nous : “CAIS, you will remember, was imposed on us by the federal government, which threatened to cut Quebec off if it did not sign.” What great solidarity! Despite the federal government's rigidity, the Bloc Québécois managed to get this program administered by La Financière agricole.

That makes it possible at least to harmonize this program with the other risk management programs administered by La Financière.

The CAIS program provides minimal coverage, which does not include all kinds of risks, which can vary considerably from one farm to another or one region to another.

If CAIS were doing the job, why were seven different programs created to deal with various crises? The program would seem poorly designed.

CAIS was useless for the cull cattle problem. It did not do anything.

Let me quote the president of the Fédération des producteurs de lait du Québec for you:

I would like to point out as well that milk producers are not eligible for CAIS. In order for a milk producer to be eligible, he or she must have losses of at least 30% over the last three selected base years. In our case, even if our cull cattle were sold for $0.00, we would not even qualify for the part of the CAIS program covering catastrophes, the only one for which we are eligible.

Let me give just one example. According to the Canadian Federation of Agriculture, managing the deposits costs $14 million in administrative expenses, while they only bring in $34 million. Assuming an interest rate of 6%, the administrative costs are high.

Let us now look at the motion put forward by the Conservative Party of Canada this morning.

On February 8, the agriculture ministers will be meeting to discuss the CAIS program, among other things. We would hope that the federal government will not show up empty-handed. It was for just that reason that it did not make an appearance at the last UPA congress. This week the Canadian Federation of Agriculture asked once again for the initial deposit requirement to be abolished. This is the measure that is the subject of the present motion. It is supported by the UPA and by various agricultural organizations.

Ultimately, this is a marginal measure, for it represents only $34 million in annual lost profits in Canada. My colleagues and I support this measure, which should however be funded in its entirety by the federal government.

Let us fact facts. The deposit requirement is a major irritant for agricultural producers. It is not right for hard-pressed farmers to be obliged to borrow in order to make their deposit. The basic question with the CAIS program is this: who do we want to help? The agricultural producers or the bankers?

Time is short. We have to go much further. We acknowledge that the Conservative Party's motion would give farmers a bit more time, but it does not go far enough. It seems to us essential to promptly launch a debate on the effectiveness of the CAIS program. The committee that was supposed to be studying the effectiveness and management of this program has still not convened, and there will be no major change until 2006.

The minister should also be worried about the low number of Quebec producers enrolled in this program, even in a period of crisis. That speaks volumes. This low enrolment rate is explained by the simple fact that the program does not meet their needs, period.

Let me now cite the latest brief from the UPA, which recently submitted four proposals to the federal government. First, the government has to substantially increase its budget for the income security program. Second, it should offer Quebec and the provinces more flexibility in managing the funds earmarked for income security. Federal and provincial assistance has to be decompartmentalized to meet the specific needs of each of the regions and types of production. Third, ways of reducing the program's red tape have to be proposed, particularly as regards establishment of the reference margins. Finally, the impact of international subsidies must be assessed annually in order to adjust the reference margins in a fair and equitable manner.

So this is what the Bloc Québécois believes must be done to improve the Canadian Agricultural income Stabilization program. I want to reiterate that this government, led by its former Minister of Finance, has been constantly coming upon budget surpluses as if by magic, year after year, for ages now. If this government really wanted to make itself some new and genuine friends, it would turn to those who provide us with our daily bread and who now find themselves in a situation which has for some time now been well past the crisis point.

Our people have faced some serious problems since this party came back to power. Consider the fiscal imbalance, which has imposed a terrible burden on those who want to receive real health care, both in Quebec and in the Canadian provinces.

Think of the farmers who are forced to sell their farm because they have lost hope, because of mismanagement of public funds by this government, because of deficient sanitary practices by supposedly responsible persons, who would do well to model themselves on the sanitary methods used in Quebec.

There is still time to help those who provide us with our daily bread. All we have to do is listen to them, stop trying to find solutions in ivory towers in Ottawa or elsewhere, roll up our sleeves, and really move things forward. It is doable. But is this government capable? Up to now in Quebec, it has not proven much of anything.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Madam Speaker, I have both a comment and a question.

First, in terms of a comment on the CAIS program and Quebec, in 2003 the federal-provincial contributions on CAIS will be somewhere around $142 million and that will be about $102 million for 2004. That will be the support to producers under CAIS in Quebec. That is important. In terms of the BSE programs, between the transitional program, TISP, and other BSE programs there has been some $212 million provided to Quebec.

It is important to put on the record that there is assistance going to Quebec producers.

I have a specific question for the hon. member. I know that she is very knowledgeable of the industry. Two things have happened in the last while that have an impact on some of the issues that we face. One of them has been the Canadian Dairy Commission's increase of the price of milk by $5, with a portion of that going to recognize the issues with cull cows and the decline in the value of cull cows. Does she think that is of some assistance?

The second thing that potentially will change is with the rule change, as suggested by the Americans to come into effect on March 7, that meat from older animals will be eligible for export to the United States. Does she think that will have an impact on some of the challenges producers face in Quebec?

[Denise Poirier-Rivard, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Madam Speaker, I listened carefully to the minister when he said that he had introduced solutions. Where was he last fall, during the UPA's most recent convention? Why did he not come to give Quebec producers all this good news? We expected to see him at the UPA convention but we did not.

The minister says that he made changes. I do not want to hear him say that he was retained here in the House. Given that it takes 50 minutes to fly from Ottawa to Quebec City, I think that he could have come to announce everything he is talking about today.

Earlier, the minister mentioned a federal-provincial agreement. I think that he should have come in person to the UPA convention to announce the measures that he intended to implement to help producers who are clearly suffering. Some farmers are even on the verge of committing suicide and others have.

We do not yet have a specific date. There is talk of March 7, but we are not there yet and our producers are still waiting.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Madam Speaker, with respect to the comments made by my colleague from the Bloc Québécois, it sounds like she has similar concerns in her riding as I have in my riding of Dufferin--Caledon.

I have had farmers from all over Dufferin--Caledon come to me and say that they are concerned about the increase in subsidies, in competition not only with the Americans but with the Europeans. With respect to the forms, many of them say that they find them very difficult to understand. They also talk about the deposit and the fact that they cannot afford it. That is why the Conservative Party of Canada has made the resolution.

The more frightening part is that many, and I am not just talking about the odd one, have come to me and asked if there are tax advantages they can receive with respect to the disposition of their farms. They have said that they want to get out of the business because they cannot afford to do it anymore. That I find is the most serious of all. Another thing they comment on is their RRSPs. Many are cashing in their RRSPs simply to stay alive.

My colleague indicates that the resolution does not go far enough. Could she elaborate specifically on what additional things she feels that the Minister of Agriculture and the government should do?

[Denise Poirier-Rivard, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Madam Speaker, we can propose solutions to help producers.

The federal government could substantially increase the safety net program budget. That would be one solution. It would give Quebec and the provinces greater flexibility in managing funds allocated to the safety net program. The federal and provincial governments need help decompartmentalizing in order to meet the specific needs of each type of production in each region. These are some of the ways we can help them.

We have also proposed restructuring to reduce program bureaucracy, particularly with regard to the establishment of reference margins. There could also be an annual international subsidy impact assessment so as to ensure fair and equitable adjustments to the reference margins.