Debates of Feb. 3rd, 2005

House of Commons

[The Speaker]

I should point out to hon. members that the wooden mace is on the table today in celebration of the fact that there was a fire in this place 89 years ago today.

Committees of the House

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the first report of the Standing Committee on Industry, Natural Resources, Science and Technology in relation to Bill C-29, an act to amend the Patent Act.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the fifth report of the Standing Committee on Finance on Bill S-17, an act to implement an agreement, conventions and protocols concluded between Canada and Gabon, Ireland, Armenia, Oman and Azerbaijan for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion.

[Leon Benoit, Conservative, Vegreville—Wainwright, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the fourth report of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

The committee has studied Bill C-8, an act to amend the Financial Administration Act, the Canada School of Public Service Act and the Official Languages Act, and has agreed to report it with amendment.

Petitions

[Inky Mark, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present three petitions this morning on behalf of the good people of Dauphin—Swan River.

The first petition calls upon Parliament to immediately hold a renewed debate on the definition of marriage and to affirm, as it did in 1999, its commitment to take all necessary steps to preserve marriage as a union of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others.

[Inky Mark, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the second petition calls upon the government to take immediate action to develop internationally recognized protocol designed to restore confidence in Canadian beef products and to open international beef markets to Canadian producers.

[Inky Mark, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the last petition calls upon the government to freeze further spending on the implementation or privatization of the national firearms registry and to repeal Bill C-68 in its entirety.

Questions on the Order Paper

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

[The Speaker]

Is it agreed?

[An hon. member]

Agreed.

Supply

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

moved:

That, in light of the numerous recent disasters affecting agricultural communities across Canada and the government's failure to deliver timely financial relief to struggling farmers, whether by the Canadian Agricultural Income Stabilization (CAIS) program or other programs, the House call on the government to immediately drop the CAIS deposit requirement and honour the commitments it has already made to Canadian producers.

[Jay Hill, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, there have been consultations among the parties and I believe you would find unanimous consent for the following motion. I move:

That the time provided for the first speaker on the supply motion before us today be divided between the member for Haldimand--Norfolk and the Leader of the Opposition, and that the Leader of the Opposition be permitted to speak first.

[The Speaker]

Does the hon. member have the unanimous consent of the House to propose the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Speaker]

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, my thanks to the House for permitting me to speak first.

I rise today to support the motion put forward by the member for Haldimand—Norfolk, which calls on the government to immediately drop the CAIS deposit requirement and honour all of the financial commitments it has made to Canadian agricultural producers.

Many who will speak are much more technically knowledgeable on this subject than I. Let me just put this debate in context. The context is that we have, for a dozen years now, a government that has been in power, and during the period of that government's rule, notwithstanding its constant bragging about its financial and economic achievements, we have seen disposable family income in this country that has barely improved at all.

Throughout that period, the more serious problem has often been, particularly through neglect, the declining disposable income we have seen throughout rural Canada and many sectors of the rural economy. Families have been hit hard and probably no families have been hit as hard as those who operate family farms.

The family farm, in our judgment, remains a critical institution not just in this country's past, but hopefully will remain so in its future, because no institution so thoroughly represents all of the values that built this country: hard work, enterprise, cooperation, community, and of course the family itself.

Now I know these are not Liberal values, they are not the real Liberal values, but they are the values of real people and I constantly remind the government of that.

For two years now our agricultural sector, on top of the backdrop of declining farm incomes, has been decimated by a series of unprecedented and far-reaching crises. Obviously, one is BSE in the cattle industry, the effects of which have spread not only to other ruminants but in particular to the dairy sector. We have had sustained and cruel drought through grains and oilseeds, not just in western Canada but in other parts of eastern Canada as well. Of course we continue to have an international subsidy war in which our farmers find comparatively little assistance.

Let us take the cattle industry. Cattle and grain producers have historically required very little government support. They thrived in unfettered markets, but through circumstances that are beyond their control they need help today.

The economic effects of BSE have been devastating. Unknown numbers of livestock producers have been foreclosed on. Some have completely pulled out, salvaging what they could. We have experienced this and I have experienced this even in my own family. Others are faced with low land values and cannot bear to cut their losses.

The entire farming industry in Canada has been hard hit by these crises, including the BSE crisis. All our farming communities in every region need help in one way or another.

Recently, the president of the Union des producteurs agricoles said that the BSE crisis has had a huge impact on Quebec, where 25,000 farms, or half the farms in the province, have been affected.

We currently have a government that thinks only about the big cities, where it believes it can get the most votes. It is a government that is insensitive to the problems in the regions. This was obvious in the disdainful refusal by the government, as represented by the Minister of Transport, to bring justice to the people of Mirabel whose land was expropriated, even after the complete closure of the airport to passengers and after 40 years of injustice, incompetence and insensitivity.

Everywhere I go in rural Canada I hear the same thing. I hear it over and over again. I do not know how the government can miss it. The CAIS program is not working.

There are all kinds of ways in which it does not work. It is complicated. It requires an army of accountants for people who can barely afford the normal burden of government paperwork. It is backlogged. The cheques never arrive. It does not pay out. It is like so many of the agricultural promises from this government.

But there is a more fundamental structural problem to CAIS. The problem is simple enough. We cannot effectively combine an income stabilization program with a disaster relief program. That is why this program has been so dysfunctional and why it has been getting more dysfunctional over the past two or three years and is fast approaching a crisis.

I say to the government members that they are going to have to find a better solution in the long term. This is not going to work. I know that there are some in the government who approve a review of this, but that is not good enough. We are going to have to take some action now.

I think this motion takes the action required. The motion calls for the elimination, for this year, of the deposit requirement contained in the CAIS program.

We are looking at severe problems on top of what we already have as we approach this year's planting and seeding. This problem has to be addressed now. This motion is the quickest way and the best way of addressing it.

Then we have to find a longer term solution. Members of our caucus, led by our agricultural critic from Haldimand—Norfolk, others such as our critic from Brandon, our critic from the Battlefords, the vice-chair of the committee, our members for Lethbridge and from Swift Current, all our members, have for some time been putting their minds to developing alternatives to this CAIS approach.

What we propose is that a Conservative government would implement a whole farm production insurance program based on a 10 year average of value and production costs for a commodity. The program would be funded on a tripartite basis one-third by the federal government, one-third by provincial governments and one-third by producers.

And we propose that a second level of support would exist, but would only be required in extraordinary circumstances such as that of BSE when normal markets and market access collapse. Our plan would include a bankable business risk program directed at primary producers and funded principally by the federal government. Unlike CAIS, this second level of support would not require producer cash on deposit.

For most producers, CAIS is not and certainly has not been a source of hope and comfort. In fact, it is becoming a supplementary cause of the anguish and uncertainty that exist in the agricultural community. The reliability and affordability of the program are primary concerns. CAIS is failing on both counts.

Frankly, having a program so dependent at critical junctures on producer pay-in, when there is so little payout, is hampering our producers as they try to compete worldwide with treasuries across the world that appear far more generous to their agricultural sectors than ours at home is.

As important as this motion is, let me end by saying there remains a lot to be done to restore predictability, stability and long term profitability to the Canadian agricultural industry. One need in particular is obviously the immediate needs of the cattle industry and the damages inflicted by the BSE crisis.

I will say what I have been saying repeatedly for the past few months: there remains a need, and it is not part of this motion, but there remains a need in my judgment for a cull cow program. It does not matter if the border finally does get opened; we all have our fingers crossed. It does not matter if it finally gets opened: we have an enormous older herd and that problem is going to have to be dealt with. I cannot believe the Liberals as recently as December voted against that notion.

Before Christmas, the Liberals voted against a cull reduction program. However, the problem still exists and the government has to assume its responsibilities.

What is needed most urgently and what has been lacking in so many rural sectors, not just in agriculture but in softwood and in the fisheries, what has been lacking, cruelly lacking, is political will and, frankly, a balanced political perspective from this government. Agriculture and agrifood, fisheries, mines, and forestry, these are economic sectors that sustain a large number of Canadians and a large number of Canadian communities. Rural Canada still contributes significantly to Canada's GDP and contributes 40% of our exports.

I remind the House that in rural Canada our most fundamental values are preserved and protected and passed from generation to generation, the values of solidarity, family and honest hard work. These industries and these communities have earned the respect and the admiration of Canadians. At this time they deserve the help of their Parliament and of their government. I urge all members, including government members, to support this motion.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the fact that we are going to have an opportunity to debate agriculture today. I look forward to that.

I have a couple of questions, though, for the Leader of the Opposition, because there are some issues that I think we should have right up front.

The Leader of the Opposition, since this Parliament commenced as a minority Parliament, has made the point, particularly in the debate on the Speech from the Throne, of the importance of working in a collaborative and collective way. He made the point particularly in the wording of the amendments to the Speech from the Throne itself, and how it would have been nice from his perspective if those discussions had been able to take place beforehand and we had had a collective agreement.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. He wants to talk about agriculture and put forward a motion that we can deal with, but there was no consultation to see if we could arrive at a collective agreement.

[An hon. member]

We have been asking you for months.

[An hon. member]

A few years.

[Andy Mitchell, Liberal, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

They are cackling over there because I am pointing out to them that they do not do what they call for in one case or another.

Let us get to the nub of this. As the Leader of the Opposition said when he began, and I appreciate this, there were others who had a better technical knowledge. I understand and appreciate that, but what he fails to point out in putting forward this motion as some sort of solution is that the CAIS program is not a federal program but a federal-provincial program and that making changes to it does not happen through a resolution in the House. It happens when 7 out of 10 provinces representing 50% of farm gate receipts make a collective decision to do it, and even beyond that, because this is a three-legged stool, it also requires federal government, provincial governments and producers, not that top-down directive approach that the Leader of the Opposition is suggesting.

If the Leader of the Opposition could provide some reasons as to why we have a motion in front of the House that purports to deal with the issue but does not present the issue in a way that is actionable, I am sure all Canadians and producers would like to hear how he intends for that to happen.

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Madam Speaker, I appreciate that the minister is pleased that we are having a debate on agriculture today. I am glad to see that he is here, listening and rising on his feet, but let me point out that the government controls most of the agenda in this place and it is always one of the opposition parties that has to bring agriculture forward. It is never this government.

When we talk about exchanging ideas, I do not know what the minister is talking about. He and I both appeared at the same forum only hours apart in Yorkton just last month to discuss the issues we are talking about today, the very proposals, and he comes here and says he does not know, he was caught by surprise, he has never heard of any of this. The problem is that the minister and the government do not listen to producers and it is about time they started listening.

On the issue of provincial involvement, this is the same problem. I would encourage the minister to listen to his provincial counterparts. I think they recognize that there have to be changes. I do not think there will be a provincial government in the country that will resist this Parliament passing a resolution to show some generosity to producers at this time of crisis. And if the minister has information to the contrary, I challenge him to produce it.

[Rick Casson, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Madam Speaker, I want to thank my leader for bringing this debate to the House of Commons today and also the member for Haldimand—Norfolk, our agriculture critic.

The issue before us today has reached a crisis proportion. It is a timely motion where we as a nation, and the government should recognize this, have to come to the rescue of people on the family farm. To start that process, this motion is where it should be. The comments from the minister are completely unacceptable as far as questioning whether this should happen here today. This is exactly where it should happen and it should happen all day long. People in Canada better recognize there is a crisis.

The border is supposed to open on March 7, but that is the first step in a long process that will to be necessary to get our cattle industry back on stable footing. I would like to ask for Leader of the Opposition for his comments on what needs to be done in the next phase of this crisis.

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Madam Speaker, in terms of the BSE crisis, as I said in my remarks, there are a number of things that need to be done. We need to continue to have some tax incentives to produce some additional slaughter capacity. We need some top-ups and set-aside programs. I could go through the list, but the most important thing is the cull cow program. It has to be done no matter when the border is opened. Even if it were opened today, we still would have that need.

When it comes to cull cow problem and the coming problem on grains and oilseeds, and maybe the minister will not accept this solution, we all demand today that in this debate he recognize the existence of the problem and propose some kind of solution today for producers.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Madam Speaker, as the official opposition agriculture critic, I am pleased to rise today to speak to our party's motion that calls on the Liberal government to get rid of the Canadian agricultural income stabilization, or CAIS, program cash deposit requirement as well as to honour the commitments that it has already made to Canadian farmers.

However, before I continue, I would like to thank our leader, the member for Calgary Southwest, and my colleagues in the Conservative caucus for supporting me in recognizing the magnitude of this issue and tabling the very important motion that we have before us today.

I must admit that it may seem a little odd to ask the Liberal government to vote on a motion that among other things asks it to honour its commitments, as we know that honouring commitments is not something the Liberals are very good at. Think NAFTA, think GST, think of their commitment to defend the traditional definition of marriage. The list of broken promises could take up all my time today. Suffice it to say, agricultural producers who have suffered through difficult circumstances such as BSE, avian flu, drought or prairie frost are fed up with empty government promises that aid is finally coming their way.

Just this week I received a letter from yet another farmer saying that he was still waiting his CAIS cash advance payment for 2003. This is simply unacceptable. How can producers who have creditors banging on their door assure them that money will be coming when the government can give them no guarantees as to when they can expect the funds?

We have recently learned that many grain and oilseed farmers may have to wait until January 2006 to receive anything for the losses due to their price collapse of 2004. As if the unending delay in receiving funds through the CAIS program were not enough, the government continues to insist that producers enrolled in the CAIS program provide an onerous cash deposit to trigger payments from the program.

Many banks are even refusing to lend money to farmers who offer their future cash payments as security because the banks have no confidence in how much money will actually be paid or when.

The CAIS deposit requirement has been universally rejected by producers across the country as a policy that unfairly hurts our farmers. It ties up producers money and deposits that could otherwise be used to invest in much needed farm equipment or to pay off other farm expenses.

Agriculture producers across the country, struggling with extreme conditions outside their control, do not need yet another financial burden to ensure that relief payments make their way to them. That is why I am calling on the Minister of Agriculture to immediately drop the cash deposit program required by CAIS.

This is a very serious situation. I am sure that many Canadians would be appalled to learn that the realized net farm income for Canadian producers in 2003 was a negative number nationally. That is right: negative income. Furthermore, although our country's agricultural exports have steadily increased, farm incomes are dropping rapidly.

One example is, according to the Ontario Federation of Agriculture, in 1981 our farmers received just 5¢ for every $1 of cornflakes sold to the consumer. Now, over 20 years later with a lot of inflation in between, our farmers are only getting 3¢ on $1. This is unacceptable.

Canadian producers compete with treasuries around the world. Many of our global competitors have significantly richer domestic subsidies that give direct payments, actually improving farmer income, not simply supporting producers when losses occur. Most important, their programs are free and do not demand upfront costs, deposits or fees. The deposit or any other upfront cost for safety net programming only further disadvantages Canadian producers on the international stage.

Even the parliamentary secretary for agriculture has acknowledged that the CAIS program was never designed to deal with disasters or trade injury. It was just supposed to provide income support within the normal flux and flow of business. That is fair enough. The problem is that there are not any programs at all to deal with disasters, trade or otherwise. Everything is ad hoc. There is no plan. There is no standard. There is no money. Even when the money is promised, it does not get delivered.

Take for example the money promised for the federal cattle set-aside program that was announced in Calgary last September. As of last week, we had reports that the Alberta government had not yet received a nickel from the federal government. This is unacceptable.

With regard the much touted loan loss reserve program to stimulate investment in desperately needed slaughterhouse capacity, we were told that the application forms would not be available for three months. It is five months later and there are still no forms. There are no funds. This is unacceptable.

What about the tobacco farmers of Ontario and Quebec, two-thirds of whom are in my home riding of Haldimand—Norfolk? Three days before the election was called last spring, they were promised an aid package that would have seen cheques in their hands by October at the latest. They have not received a penny yet. Now the government has changed the rules, lowered the funding and said, “take it or leave it”. This, too, is totally unacceptable.

I have heard a lot of people complain and say, “farmers always keep whining. What are they complaining about. The governments keep announcing more money for them, but the farmers are never happy”. What these people do not realize is that the same money gets announced time and again. It gets announced, it gets promised, but it does not get delivered.

I can say with confidence that our agricultural products are among the best in the world. They are safe and they are reliable. However, they are becoming more expensive to produce because the farmers have to spend an amazing amount of time and money on complying with increased government legislation, regulation and applications for safety nets.

I have spoken with several farm accountants over the last while. Even the brightest of them admit that they have a really hard time understanding the CAIS program and the calculations. If, with all their experience, they find the program a shemozzle of a bamboozle, how could independent farmers be expected to cope with the challenge? The answer is simple: they cannot.

The unnecessary and unproductive complexity of CAIS demands that farmers who need the program most, those facing tough times, have to spend money that they can ill afford, not only on the deposit requirement, but also on accountants and lawyers just to make their application. The system is so bad that I know of one farmer who completely retired from farming, saying, “This CAIS program is just the last straw”.

It is abundantly clear that in the face of declining farm income, this government continues to fail farmers by providing inadequate income support programs for producers struggling with circumstances and conditions outside their control. Our farmers are fighting foreign tariffs and subsidies on the world market. They are fighting disease and frost from Mother Nature. Now they are fighting for survival. They should not have to fight their own government.

The status quo is not acceptable. I call on the Minister of Agriculture to ensure that our farmers receive responsive relief in real time, not phantom farm aid, not phantom funds.

Getting rid of the CAIS deposit requirement would provide immediate relief to thousands of producers at a time when relief is most needed. I urge the Minister of Agriculture to heed the call of producers from coast to coast and immediately drop the CAIS cash deposit requirement. I urge all members of this House to vote in favour of our motion today.