Debates of March 8th, 2005

The Budget

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Rivière-Du-Loup—Montmagny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say at the outset that I agree with the hon. member on one point: the people who are angered over EI are not only the unemployed, but also a fair number of people who work year round. They have been contributing to the employment insurance program and have seen $45 billion diverted from its original purpose.

A consensus has developed in support of a reform of the EI program. Not only the unemployed are in agreement; so are the people who work year round and the employers who contribute to the program, who have seen the money diverted from its original purpose. This is why reform is one of the important things we are advocating.

The eligibility requirement for EI benefits ranges between 420 and 700 hours of work, according to the rate of unemployment. The higher the unemployment rate, the fewer the hours required to qualify.

Today, on this Women's Day, we realize that women and young people continue to be discriminated against, being required to work more hours than others to become eligible for employment insurance. That is totally unacceptable.

That alone warrants real reform of the EI program. The Liberals had promised such a reform. They have betrayed the unemployed and the contributors to the program. That is why this budget should be opposed.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to this budget today.

I would like to begin by saying that in order to know what direction to take when preparing a budget, you have to know where you are coming from. For the Liberal government that means knowing where it got the money to eliminate the deficit and to create such huge surpluses. That is the problem with the Liberal Party, not knowing where it got the money, where the current Prime Minister when he was finance minister got the money to eliminate the deficit and create huge surpluses.

First, there were cuts to provincial transfer payments. That was the first move of this Liberal government. In 1991, the federal government paid 25% of health costs. In 1999-2000, it paid no more than 13%. It has begun putting money back in. The Romanow report said that the federal government should go back to funding 25% of the health system, as it did in the 1990s.

But instead we have cuts. What has the impact been? The cuts have been made at the expense of the provinces. It is not for nothing that 80% of Quebeckers are calling on the federal government to resolve the fiscal imbalance.

The federal government regained financial health at the expense of the provinces. It is only natural that Quebeckers are calling on the federal government to correct the fiscal imbalance now that it has achieved its objective and amassed huge surpluses.

The budget does not address this, which is outrageous. What is more, some socio-economists are once again going along with the federal government's policy of deciding where it will invest, however unexpected, now that there are surpluses.

I appeal to my former colleagues, the mayors of towns and cities, who are being taken in by the federal government. The government dealing directly with the cities does not solve the problem in the provinces. It is true that the mayors have gone along with it.

Indeed, since 1991, that is since the federal government began making cuts in transfers to the provinces, the direct impact has been that provincial governments have had to make cuts in their own transfers to municipalities and school boards. This is the domino effect of the cuts made by the federal government to put its fiscal house in order.

Now, the federal government wants to deal directly with those that felt the impact of the cuts made in the 1990s, namely municipalities, without dealing with the problems of the provinces. What is the result of all this? There is federal money on the table, but no agreement with Quebec. The federal government did not want to first reach an agreement with the provinces, with the result that there is money available here, in Ottawa, but the measures and conditions are not acceptable to the Quebec government, which deals with the problems of municipalities.

Make no mistake about it: it is not the team of the department responsible for Infrastructure and Communities that can deal on an ad hoc basis with the municipalities' needs. Let us stop dreaming here. If Liberal members are dreaming in this House, I am anxious to see what will happen.

The Ontario government decided to let the federal government negotiate directly with cities. It does not have the necessary structures to understand the problems of municipalities. It is easy for mayors to come and say they need money. However, it is not as easy to distribute the money. Let us not forget that, in Quebec alone, the needs of municipalities regarding their wastewater treatment systems total $15 billion. In the case of Quebec, the federal government has proposed $1.1 billion over the next five years. This is far less than what is needed to solve the problems of our cities.

It is absolutely critical that municipalities deal with the Quebec government. All levels of government will have to provide money to solve the cities' infrastructure problem, which is a direct result of the cuts made by the federal government in the 1990s.

There is a domino effect: the federal government made cuts in its transfers to the provinces which, in turn, made cuts to their investments in cities. Since 1990, cities have barely been able to maintain their infrastructures and have not been able to bear the costs relating to the deterioration of these infrastructures. The result is that, in Quebec, we now find ourselves faced with a critical situation, whereby cities need $15 billion for their drinking water and wastewater treatment systems alone.

This does not include the highway and building needs, which for Quebec amount to some $30 billion.

There is a program in this budget in fact, but once again, there were no negotiations with the provinces. This is the problem with the Liberal Party. The Liberals ignore the fact that after they made their cuts to try to reduce the deficit to zero, they did not then re-inject any money. Bearing in mind the domino effect, after cutting the transfers to the provinces, they should then have given them some money back to restore the fiscal balance. In this way, all the communities and stakeholders involved could have taken care, for instance, of the municipal infrastructure problems.That should be done with the provinces, the cities and the federal government.

Once again, they are trying to bypass this entire balancing act, even though it is natural. This is how things work. The federal government can try to change that; it can try to create a department of municipal affairs and replace all the equivalent departments in the provinces and Quebec. But I predict that we will have the same results as with the gun registry. It will cost 20, 100 or 1,000 times more for the simple reason that the federal government does not know anything about these areas.

Nevertheless, they just go with whatever is easiest. Insofar as municipalities are concerned, what matters is the political pull of the city mayors. Once again, they have preferred the easy way, that is to say, deal directly with the person who has the money. The federal government has the money now, and it seems to be keeping it in its coffers

This takes me to the second part of the problem. How did the government mop up the deficit and acquire its surpluses? It was on the backs of working people, the unemployed, through the famous employment insurance fund.

In 1996, the federal government withdrew from the entire employment insurance area, called unemployment insurance at the time. It decided that henceforth only employers and employees would contribute and it would no longer pay in. Since 1996, therefore, the federal government has not provided one cent. All it does is collect the contributions of employers and employees and issue cheques to unemployed people who need employment insurance benefits.

Obviously since 1996, the government has collected profits as a result of administering this fund. Those profits are not negligible; it generated a $45 billion profit. I understand that the Liberal members are telling us that, without an independent fund, this becomes part of the consolidated revenues. This is true. This is one of the tricks used by the Prime Minister and former finance minister, who took this money from the workers.

Now, to resolve this problem, the workers and employers should be given the responsibility of administering an independent fund, so that they themselves can spend the money they contribute to it. However, there is opposition; the government wants to keep control of the money, since it is profitable to do so.

Once again, the problem is not being resolved. This budget will not resolve it either. As was mentioned, the plan in this budget is to reinvest $300 million. However, this amount represents six one-thousandths of the $45 billion taken from contributors since 1996. This reinvestment, then, is not resolving the problem. Once again, this money is being used for other purposes. But for what?

What is more, in 1996, the federal government stopped investing in social housing. It was no longer investing a single dime in this area and was instead leaving the provinces to invest in social housing.

Consequently, this money is not going back into the fund from which it was taken. Obviously, the federal government took the money and cut transfer payments to the provinces, but now, this budget is not giving new money to the provinces. It does not contain a more satisfactory resolution to the problems with equalization, education and health. As a result, the provinces need even more money.

This money was taken from the workers, but it is not being put back into the employment insurance fund. An independent fund is not being created so that workers can administer this insurance program the way they want. What all workers want is access to employment insurance when they need it. They do not want to be excluded because they do not meet the conditions, because they work in seasonal jobs or for any other reason. They are not being given this opportunity.

Nothing has been resolved in terms of social housing, a program abolished in 1996, since the necessary funding has not been allocated.

This, obviously, is why the Bloc Québécois will be voting against this budget.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to repeat the question that I asked the member's colleague regarding the EI system. I think the member probably heard the preamble.

There is a qualifying period within the EI program. The Bloc has quoted something like 47% of people who participate in the plan do not qualify for benefits. If there is a qualifying period, obviously there has to be some percentage of people in the plan who do not have enough hours to qualify for benefits.

I have a simple question for the member. What would be an appropriate number of hours, days, weeks, or months, before someone in the EI plan could qualify for benefits?

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think that the unanimous report by the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills Development, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities is clear. They want a program where workers would be eligible for employment insurance with 360 hours. That was a unanimous report. Even the Liberal members dared to vote in favour of this report, yet this evening or tomorrow they will be voting in favour of a budget that does not include this.

Everyone was in agreement on it. So once again it was a matter of much ado about nothing, when everyone is well aware of what is needed. This is not the first unanimous report, but the second. There was one during the last Parliament as well. That unanimous report recommended 300 hours for eligibility. If people were entitled to EI after a reasonable number of hours, this would go a long way toward solving the problem of the seasonal gap.

The committee studied the situation, and I think it was a committee made up of so-called experts. Not that we MPs can really be experts, since we are not the ones that have these problems with EI. The public will understand, but the members are well aware of the situation their constituents are in and made some quite clear recommendations. How can it be that, once again, the member does not get it, and the Liberal Party has not included these 28 recommendations in the budget just brought down?

[Marcel Gagnon, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel. I always like to hear him speak because he is someone with ability and experience.

He did not have enough time to address a matter on which I would like to ask him a question. I am increasingly outraged by the immorality of the budgets around here, especially the latest budget.

There is talk of paying down the federal debt. I want to know whether my colleague agrees with me or not. Everyone agrees that debt should be paid off but, whenever possible, we try to get those who ran up the debt in the first place to do the paying.

As far as I know, the unemployed and the most vulnerable seniors are not the ones who ran up the federal debt. Nor was it the people needing social housing. It is not the poor who have run up the government's debt. Yet, these people are seeing funding cut in order to pay off the debt. In my opinion, those responsible for the debt are people who use tax havens, like the current Prime Minister does for his shipping companies.

Does the hon. member agree with me that it is completely immoral to pay off the debt on the backs of the poor?

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question. The hon. member for Saint-Maurice—Champlain and critic for seniors knows very well how much the federal government can dither when it comes to paying seniors what it owes them in terms of guaranteed income supplement payments. It is really something.

This is a fine example. When you owe the federal government money, though, you can bet that it will find you. In this case, it is requiring seniors to fill out a separate form, when all the information could easily be entered into a computer and GIS payments sent out automatically.

What does the government do? It requires seniors to fill out forms, hoping that as few as possible will. In the meantime, it is saving money. As someone said earlier, this was done on the backs of the workers with respect to EI. Since 1996, these people have been contributing to the plan. Surpluses have been generated, and the government is keeping the money.

The government is paying off its debt. If it had to be described by a single word, it would be “scandal”, except that it has already been used in relation to the federal government and we need a stronger word. Every day, there are media reports about the Liberal scandal with the sponsorship program.

[John Maloney, Liberal, Welland, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to the recent federal budget. I will be sharing my time with the member for Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing.

The Government of Canada has presented an ambitious agenda and a clear commitment to Canadians in maintaining sound financial management, securing our social foundations, achieving a productive and growing economy and meeting our global responsibilities. It is the eighth consecutive balanced budget and is the best fiscal record since Confederation and the best fiscal performance in the G-7. It is common sense, it is balanced and it is sustainable. Promises made during the last federal election are promises kept in this budget.

Rather than speak to the general benefits of individual and corporate tax relief, health care funding, international relief and so on, I would like to talk about the initiatives that are of particular interest to Niagara residents and my constituents in Welland riding.

First and foremost, I welcome the news on border security. Since signing the Canada-U.S. smart border declaration in December 2001, Canada has made considerable progress on improving border security. However, for border regions such as Niagara, this comes with a significant cost to the local law enforcement agencies which, by virtue of strengthened requirements, respond to many calls related to national security.

There is no doubt that the Niagara region's unique situation of bordering the United States on Lake Ontario, Lake Erie and the Niagara River, not to mention the seven international bridges, four vehicular and three train, result in numerous functions that are national security related, ones which most other municipalities are not faced with. In addition, there is the Welland Canal, which is strategic to inland marine transportation, and a very significant hydro generation plant in Niagara Falls. Not only does the Niagara Regional Police not receive additional funds to cope with these pressures, but the federal RCMP presence has continued to decrease in the region.

Expenses related to national security are ones that should not be borne by the taxpayers of the Niagara region alone, but rather by the taxpayers of our country. It is most unfair to my constituents in the riding of Welland and those who live in the Niagara Peninsula.

The government has committed very significant resources to the security of the country following September 11 and is to be commended for this. Unfortunately, much of this funding did not find its way to our first responders on the ground. That is why I am pleased to see that budget 2005 provides an additional $433 million over five years to strengthen the federal government's capacity to deliver secure and efficient border services.

A portion of these new resources will help increase the number of officers at key border crossings and airports across Canada, including in Ontario. This will help our border services officers at the Niagara Falls and Fort Erie crossings. Most definitely I will continue to press the point that national security services performed by local policing authorities should be adequately and fully compensated.

A related issue to border security is that of marine security. As I mentioned, the Niagara region borders two Great Lakes, one international river and the Welland Canal. Due to cutbacks to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police presence in the peninsula, there is little national police presence on the Great Lakes and the Niagara River. The Niagara Regional Police has limited capabilities and resources to undertake marine patrols. However, it must be done. The approximate annual cost to the Niagara Peninsula taxpayer is $77,000 and that figure excludes the cost of boats and fuel.

Building on past investments and the national security policy, budget 2005 provides an additional $222 million over five years to further enhance the security of Canada's marine transportation system. Funding initiatives include new patrol vessels for the Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence Seaway, additional inspections, and the creation of emergency response teams. This is a first step in the right direction.

Due to its proximity to the American border, the Niagara Peninsula land border crossings have the highest number of land border refugee claims. Therefore, immigration and settlement issues are very important. Budget 2005 provides an increase of $298 million over five years for settlement and integration programs for newcomers to Canada. Ontario will receive approximately 60% of this funding.

I want to remind the federal government of its responsibility to cover its fair share of not only future costs but for other recent costs. I refer to the influx of refugee claimants between December 14, 2004 and January 16, 2005 arriving at the Buffalo-Fort Erie crossing in anticipation of the implementation of the safe third country agreement between Canada and the United States. The final total cost for Niagara taxpayers is in the area of $240,000, almost a quarter of a million dollars. It is my position that the Niagara taxpayers should not have to bear the financial costs associated with this influx and that the costs should be borne by the provincial and federal governments.

It was the implementation of a federal policy that caused this crisis. The region did an excellent job in providing food and shelter over the holiday season. Its first priority was the safety and security of all claimants and immigrants.

I have asked the Government of Canada to review the costs and suggest that its officials meet with regional officials and perhaps their counterparts from the provincial government as soon as possible. The residents of Niagara should not bear these costs. We need to find a way to compensate the region for these extraordinary expenses. It is most inequitable that the taxpayers of Niagara alone fund a situation of national responsibility caused by a national policy.

The budget initiatives for settlement and integration provide a window of opportunity, a door that I will lead the government through.

I am pleased also to note the $75 million investment over five years under the health care agreement to accelerate the integration of health care professionals educated abroad. This will assist with physician and nurse shortages in Niagara. At the last count Niagara had over 50 foreign trained doctors who are either unemployed as health care professionals or underemployed. For a region that desperately needs more physicians and nurses, I am hopeful that this investment will help our concerns. We can ill afford to waste such vast, wonderful human resource assets.

The 2005 budget announced that FedNor will have an additional $14.2 million over five years for the Ontario Community Futures Development Corporations. This funding directly assists the South Niagara Community Futures Development Corporation in Port Colborne, Venture Niagara in Welland, and Grand Erie Business Centre in Cayuga which also serves west Lincoln. The Niagara region and its citizens have been well served by the community futures program and will continue to be.

I understand that some of this money will help to enhance services in official language minority communities. In Niagara, both Port Colborne and Welland have significant francophone populations. As their services seem to be under attack recently, I welcome the news that the federal government continues to uphold minority language rights.

A quarter of Canadians rely on the wealth of nature provided by the Great Lakes ecosystem. The government will expand its ongoing efforts to improve the environmental health of the Great Lakes basin. Budget 2005 provides a further $40 million over the next five years to bring forward the next phase of the Great Lakes action plan.

Building on achievements made since 1989, this initiative will continue the environmental restoration of key aquatic areas of concern identified under the Great Lakes water quality agreement between Canada and the United States, thereby restoring the ecological and economic development potential of these areas. I anticipate that the Niagara region will benefit from this program, not to mention the new funding for invasive species.

Invasive alien species are plants or animals, such as the Asian longhorn beetle, the sea lamprey and the gypsy moth, which are introduced by human action outside their natural habitats causing harm to our local ecosystems. Alien species cause billions of dollars in damage to the economy, for example, through their impact on fish stocks, agricultural yields and forestry inputs. It is more effective and less costly to prevent the entry of invasive alien species than to address their impacts once they are established in Canada.

To promote effective management of the issue, budget 2005 will provide $85 million over five years for an invasive alien species strategy that will focus on enhanced preventive measures. The strategy will be carried out in partnership with the provinces and territories. Strategic investments will be made to increase inspections at our borders, enhance supporting scientific activities, strengthen national surveillance efforts and raise awareness about harmful practices. Addressing the threat of invasive alien species will also support other environmental initiatives, such as Canada's ongoing efforts to protect species at risk and to improve the ecological health of our national parks.

New funding for the invasive alien species strategy includes an incremental $2 million per year over the next five years for the sea lamprey control program, which is jointly administered by Canada and the United States to control the presence of sea lampreys in the Great Lakes. This funding will enable Canada to increase its annual contribution to the program to improve its delivery and thus ensure better protection of our Great Lakes. This is terrific news for our commercial fishers and anglers alike.

The green municipal funds, which make investments in innovative green municipal projects, will also be enhanced by $300 million. Half of this amount will be targeted to the cleanup of brownfields.

The cleanup of these lands can restore otherwise sterile property for new industrial, commercial or retail development which provides jobs and generates realty tax revenues. There is also the potential for residential or recreational uses. All the foregoing help to reduce urban sprawl. The benefits are positive. The difficulty is that such rehabilitation is very expensive.

The federal government led by example to clear up federally owned property by committing $3.5 billion to brownfield redevelopment on federal lands in the 2004 budget. The 2005 budget goes even further. It is my hope that some of the many Niagara brownfields particularly along the Welland Canal in Thorold, Welland and Port Colborne will benefit. I recently met with representatives of Welland on a former industrial site which would be a prime area for development, perhaps a seniors residence assisted by our housing policies. In Port Colborne environmental assessments have been concluded and are being peer reviewed at this time. The next stage must be action on the ground.

Budget 2005 provides $200 million over five years and a total of $920 million over 15 years to expand the wind power production incentive, which will create enough energy to power one million Canadian homes with zero emissions. There have been inquiries into wind power in the Niagara area, in particular the Wainfleet area. This program may provide the incentive to move forward on an environmentally friendly development using the natural asset of the lake winds.

This is an excellent budget. It includes measures such as tax reductions for low and middle income Canadians, investments in child care and increases in military spending. It continues the government's excellent fiscal record of achievement.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Rivière-Du-Loup—Montmagny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to the speech by the hon. member, and I have one comment and one question for him.

In terms of social housing, I would like the hon. member to understand that some money has been directed that way in recent years. Quebec has done its work properly, and there are still many needs to be met. We were hoping that in this budget there would be additional money to meet these needs. We have even read in the newspapers that hundreds of millions of dollars are waiting somewhere, destined for other provinces. We can understand the reasons they are late. Still, that is no reason for Quebec to be penalized in this matter.

Here is my question. I am very surprised, because there was an election promise during the campaign to make clear improvements to the guaranteed income supplement. In this budget, there is an increase, in the end a fairly insignificant one, spread out over two years.

Considering the surplus that was created last year and the increases in the cost of living, especially for older people whose cost of living increase is higher than that of the average person, could the federal government not have taken much clearer and more definite steps forward and given the increase directly in this budget, rather than spreading it over two years? Moreover, could it not have granted retroactivity to the people who were deprived of the GIS for years because of the poor information given them by the department's officials?

[John Maloney, Liberal, Welland, ON]

Mr. Speaker, certainly the seniors issue is one that is of real concern to me and to the constituents of my region. In fact last week the Minister of State for Families and Caregivers was in my riding. We had a round table with seniors. They were very pleased with the increase in the GIS. As my friend has outlined, it is over a two year period.

A budget has to have a balance. We would love to increase this perhaps even further. We certainly will advocate that but we have to balance it with spending in the military. We have to balance it with our green funding. Certainly we have made a good first step. We have increased the amount of exemption below which people will not be taxed from $8,000 up to $10,000. This also will help many of our low income seniors.

[Dean Allison, Conservative, Niagara West—Glanbrook, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I also share the concerns of my colleague from Welland with regard to the costs at border crossings and what the Niagara Regional Police need to look after. It is good to see that $430 million has been committed.

I have two questions. One is on border security. Does the member think that some of that money will flow to our region? It is somewhere in the neighbourhood of 2,000 calls that have been responded to over the last couple of years at the border, at a cost of almost $400,000. I am glad to see that the hon. member for Welland shares that concern.

The other question is with regard to the wineries. I know that he has also been a supporter of that industry. The last couple of finance committees have unanimously supported dropping the excise tax on wine going out of the country. I see that even though recommendations were made by the finance committee, and all parties unanimously made the recommendations, there was nothing in the budget with regard to the excise tax. Does the member see some relief coming soon for some of the wineries that we share jointly in the Niagara region?

Of that $430 million, does the member see some money coming in the next little while for our region? On the excise tax, does he see any relief coming shortly for that as well?

[John Maloney, Liberal, Welland, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would have been very disappointed if the member for Niagara West—Glanbrook did not rise to ask some questions, because most of my speech was directed to the positive benefits for the constituents in our area, the Niagara region.

On the issue of additional funding for our Niagara Regional Police Service, certainly I have been working with the regional chair and our new chief, the former deputy chief, on this issue. They have prepared a business plan for us. I have submitted it to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. I was pleased to see this initiative in the budget . It is certainly an area that I will continue to lobby on and advocate for.

Unfortunately I do not control the purse strings, but let me tell the member that the door is there and we are going to walk through it . I think there will be additional funding because it is certainly warranted. They have made a good case. They are the first people on the ground. They are our first responders. I think they deserve to be fully compensated for the services they perform for national security. Again, very few regions are faced with this, so the taxpayers of the Niagara region should not be burdened with that.

On the second point, the excise tax on wine, I was very pleased to see the excise tax on jewellery being phased out. This is certainly an area we have also advocated on, as well as advocating for tax credits for adoption expenses. In the area of excise tax for wines, we are at a competitive disadvantage in the Niagara region with our Canadian wines. I feel that it is on the radar screen for the finance committee and the finance department. They are aware of it.

I did not see it in this budget. I had hoped that I would. I am very confident that we will see it in future budgets. It is certainly something that is needed to make our wine industry more competitive with our global counterparts. The member and I will both push that initiative forward for the benefit of our respective constituents.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to join my colleagues today as we debate the government's most recent budget, a budget that I am very proud of, quite frankly, a budget that has again underlined the importance of bringing a balanced approach to the management of this country. Indeed, we cannot have eight straight balanced budgets, as this government has done, unless a balanced approach is taken.

A balanced approach means that we make the investments on one side in the social economy, whether it is health care, post-secondary education, the environment, local communities through our regional economic development agencies, or indeed whether it is investments in defence that maintain Canada's position as a world leader in keeping the peace around the world, investments that will secure our borders both in the Arctic and on the east and west coasts.

That same balanced approach has allowed us to eliminate the deficit eight years in a row, as I mentioned, that deficit a legacy which we inherited from the previous Conservative government, a legacy which after a couple of years we were able to tackle and successfully beat to the ground. Now having balanced budgets, we are in fact, along with our social investments and investments in the environment and defence, also able to pay down the debt.

In fact, I believe that our ratio of debt to GDP ranks second best among the industrialized nations. There was a time in 1993 when our debt to GDP ratio was so bad that others around the world were referring to Canada as an economic basket case. That is no longer the case. Our economy in terms of debt to GDP leads the world and our growth rates in terms of employment lead the industrialized world.

Let me go back to the beginning for a moment. As was mentioned, I represent the beautiful and large riding of Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing in northern Ontario. It is at its southern perimeter a Great Lakes riding, having the northern area of Lake Huron and the eastern shores of Lake Superior included in the riding.

As well, my riding includes the Highway 11 or autoroute onze region between Calstock and Hearst all the way through Kapuskasing to Smooth Rock Falls. It also includes Highway 17. Both national railways, CN and CP, must travel through our riding to go from east to west. In fact, I doubt that one could fly across this country without flying over our riding. It is a large riding of 110,000 square kilometres.

I am very proud to represent the riding of Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing here, in this House.

I would like to commend our Prime Minister not only in his current capacity as leader of our party and the leader of Canada but also in his capacity as our former finance minister. He has laid a foundation, which has been continued by our current finance minister, of good governance and good financial management, which has really allowed Canada to maintain and build upon programs that Canadians value.

When the Prime Minister was able to reach a deal with the premiers and territorial leaders last September on the health accord, he was able to do so from a federal position that allowed for considerable new investments by Canada in concert and cooperation with the provinces. That would not have been possible if the books of this country had been in disarray.

It does not matter which of the side issues is of concern on any given day; I think if we look at the very basics of this country we will find a country that has been very well managed, a country that Canadians are proud of as they travel within our borders and very proud of when they travel beyond our borders. All members of Parliament have been asked to provide Canada pins to our Canadians travelling abroad. They wear those pins proudly. There are not very many nations whose citizens are able to so proudly wear their badge of honour when travelling around the world.

I would like to quote from my very own press release on this excellent budget, which states:

The Liberal government's 2005 budget delivers on all of its key platform commitments, including building the economy, further securing Canada's social foundations, addressing climate change and meeting our global responsibilities. This builds on the government's budget commitments to keeping its books balanced, for the eighth straight year. I am extremely proud that Canada, alone among industrialized nations, will have balanced the books in 2005.

That is going forward to 2005-06. By every measure we shall continue to do that indefinitely in the years to come.

Let me mention some budget highlights. I mentioned the 10 year plan to strengthen health care. Among the issues that my constituents talk with me about very often is access to doctors or medical professionals. My constituents talk about the waiting times they must endure to receive a knee or hip replacement, a CAT scan or some other procedure.

While it is recognized that it is the provinces which manage the health care system, it was very important that the Prime Minister accomplished a degree of accountability to Canadians going forward. That is a tremendous breakthrough for the citizens of this country. The provinces will not be reporting to the federal government on their performance. They will be reporting to the public.

A 10 year plan which will see over $40 billion of new federal money invested in health care is a plan that we can all be proud of, whether we are on the opposition side of the House or the government side.

When it comes to Canadians of low and modest incomes, we cannot soon enough reduce taxes for Canadians and for those who still remain on the rolls. The tax relief measures in this budget will eliminate hundreds of thousands of Canadians from the tax rolls. This is a measure which will advance the bar when it comes to dealing with poverty in Canada.

There is no country, including our own, that can be proud of any level of poverty. I wish we had been able to accomplish more. However, there is no question about it: this government has been attempting to deal with the low income problems facing many Canadian individuals and families and the disabled. There are measures that have helped through post-secondary assistance. There are measures that have improved the disability tax credit and measures that have improved GST refunds over the years.

These measures, including the latest one announced in this budget, which is to remove hundreds of thousands of Canadians from the tax rolls, are measures which will further enhance Canada's ability to further reduce poverty. Hopefully we can get to that ideal goal of eliminating poverty in this country and indeed around the world. It is a challenge which all of us must bend our shoulders to and bend our efforts toward solving. It is a challenge which will not be solved overnight.

I would like to speak for a moment about economic development. I would like to clarify this for the record, because there were some opposition members who thought that FedNor, Canada's economic development agency in northern Ontario, had for some reason seen its funding reduced.

An accurate reading of the actual budget information will reveal that the base funding for FedNor has been increased. More precisely, it has been increased by two and a half times in recognition of the fact that northern Ontario does suffer from the challenges of the very unfair U.S. tariff on Canadian softwood in particular. Northern Ontario also suffers to some degree from the very unfair U.S. border closure on our live cattle. Also, northern Ontario being a very large region, it suffers the normal problems of a rural area.

FedNor's budget has been increased significantly. I can tell members that there is not one mayor or first nations chief in my riding who would not say that they appreciate what FedNor and Canada have done in Northern Ontario. I want to commend the minister, past ministers and the administration of FedNor in northern Ontario for the tremendous work they do.

The new deal for communities which will see significant billions of dollars transferred to municipalities in cooperation with the provinces for municipal infrastructure will be very welcomed. The program has been very successful in the past and now we have put that on stable footing. No doubt communities can plan long term now for the much needed sewage, water works and road works that they need in their communities--

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)]

Questions and comments. The hon. member for Nepean--Carleton.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I noticed that my distinguished colleague spent very little time talking about the agricultural commitments in this past budget and in particular, support for our cattle farmers, both dairy and beef, many of whom live in my constituency. It would be impossible to discuss that subject without acknowledging the very obvious linkage between security and trade.

I want to ask the member a question with respect to his government's decision not to support the ballistic missile defence system.

The government stood up time and time again in the House and said repeatedly that its decision would be taken at a time when it was in the Canadian national interest. However, the government chose seven days before the border was meant to be opened to Canadian live cattle as the time to make its very provocative announcement.

How could it possibly have been in the Canadian national interest to announce our opposition, to a major strategic defensive initiative of the United States, seven days before the predicted resolution of one of our biggest trade disputes in history? How could that possibly have been the most timely occasion to make that policy announcement?

We know the real reason, do we not? We know the real reason that his leader put the interests of our cattle farmers behind his own narrow leadership interests by making that announcement only days before his Liberal convention to avoid embarrassing divisions and to avoid the attacks of the loony left in his party, especially among the little Liberals in the youth wing.

Let us acknowledge that this decision had nothing to do with the national interest of the country and nothing to do with the interests of Canadian cattle farmers. However, it had everything to do with the interest of his leader. Why will the member not explain the timing of this very inopportune decision?

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I disagree with the premise of his question that there is a linkage. There is no more linkage than we have with the court in Montana.

The notion that the American President and administration sit around waiting for Canada to do something in order to find ways to respond is a little ridiculous. Our American neighbours have much more important things to be concerned about than the timing of decisions.

However, let me say this about ballistic missile defence. I am very proud of the decision that our Prime Minister has made on behalf of the country. It is very important that we remain a sovereign nation and if it is in Canada's interest, as he said, to make a decision to stay out of ballistic missile defence, then that is the right decision as far as I am concerned.

There is in my view absolutely no linkage between the two. The member and his colleagues have tried to create a linkage where none exists. I do not blame them for trying. I believe their efforts will fail.

When all is said and done, our American neighbours will run their country as they see fit. We will run our country as we see fit. We will cooperate on hundreds and perhaps thousands of large and small issues.

If the member's point were true, then we would not have seen the softwood lumber issue to be such a problem as it has been for decades. It is mystery how the American system seems to work and it has nothing to do with Canada's decision to not participate in BMD.

In fact, the member must not believe President Bush who said himself that he respected Canada's decision and he is pushing himself as is his administration for the opening of the border which we all agree should have been opened a couple of days ago. It did not, but we all hope that it will be very soon.

We, as the member does, all support our beef farmers. I have a number in my own riding on Manitoulin Island and the north shore, central Algoma. We all wish that this will be resolved very soon. As to a linkage, none exists.

[Paul Forseth, Conservative, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time.

I oppose this budget because it is far less than what the country deserves and needs. The priorities are largely misplaced and I will outline just a few of the reasons why. Nevertheless, we will not defeat the government on it because the larger issue beyond this pathetic budget is that the country does not want an election at this time.

My constituents will, I am sure, give me a clear signal when the time is due, when an election is being asked for. I am sure there will be a clear mood soon that they have had enough of these Liberals, but such is not the case right now. They do not like what they are getting from the government, but they like the prospects of an election even less.

I will outline some positive Conservative budget alternatives while letting this budget pass in order to avoid an election for the time being. The Liberals plan to spend $196.4 billion on programs in 2005-06, not counting statutory spending like pensions. That is $6,130 for every person in Canada, the biggest spending plan in history. That is incredible.

The national debt is still at about $500 billion and the service charges for it will be $35.1 billion. The spending rate is up 11% from 2003-04. The Liberals tax more than needed. They spend too much which results in government waste while we still owe too much.

While the government says that the budget is about delivering on commitments, we are seeing nothing but dithering. Most changes are supposed to happen long after the Prime Minister and finance minister are gone. By making plans long after many other budgets will come forward, all the way up to 2009, by definition, the substance of this budget plan will likely never happen.

Most of the money for child care, the gas tax transfer for cities, and climate change, is delayed until the end of the decade with no plan in place of how to spend it. Nevertheless, in this budget there are hints of what a positive world it could be with Conservatives at the helm.

The government is following the Conservative Party's lead on areas that are important to Canadians. Some examples of Conservative initiatives adopted in the budget are: tax relief for low and middle income Canadians; a reduction of corporate taxes to help stimulate the economy, create jobs and raise government revenue; funding for national defence; an increase in RRSP limits; an enhancement of capital cost allowance rates; a non-refundable tax credit adoption expense, our private member's Bill C-246; eventual elimination of the excise tax on jewellery, our private member's Bill C-259; a caregiver tax credit, which was the Conservative election platform; measures for agricultural cooperatives; and the removal of the CAIS program cash deposit requirement, which was a Conservative supply day motion.

Although these topics are at least mentioned, many of the positive steps in the budget do not go far enough or occur fast enough to have any substantial impact on the well-being of Canadians. The tax break provided in this budget amounts to about $16 for this year. The inadequate productivity enhancing measures in the budget illustrate that the government is not heeding warning signs that Canada's high priority programs could be put in jeopardy if comprehensive steps are not taken to grow the economy before the demographic crunch sets in.

The Conservatives devised a standard of living strategy in a prebudget submission published elsewhere that if implemented would ensure that high priority social programs are available to Canadians when they require them.

The key components of the Conservative Party's standard of living strategy are: the encouragement of investment in Canada's productive capacity; the reduction of corporate and capital payroll taxes; a streamlined regulatory environment; a more rapid reduction in the national debt; a reduction of federal spending to sustainable levels; the encouragement of education and training; and the promotion and stimulation of affordable housing development.

The reason for these is clear. A more vibrant economy would ensure that we could actually pay for the social programs we need. Sadly, the budget gives short shrift to individuals. Special interest groups get billions while the rest of us are thrown pocket change.

One of the byproducts of a culture of dependency fostered by the continued extension of the welfare state is that it guarantees a decreasing degree of dissension. It is a simple rule. The more people on the gravy train, the fewer people available to offer objective, critical analysis.

What the consensus analysis of the federal budget makes clear is that the individual is now left out of the equation. In spite of massive surpluses and record revenues, individuals themselves were tossed pocket change in terms of tax cuts while special interest groups were thrown billions of tax dollars.

Besides Conservatives, who else was going to be up in arms because the government promised in last year's budget to uphold the principles of financial responsibility and integrity, and then promptly turn around and proceed to overspend by $10 billion? Would it be the CBC, which once again saw its funding rise and owes its existence to government money?

What about business groups? I think we can safely forget about anyone in the aerospace industry, the auto industry and high-tech going after government, given that billions of dollars are flowing their way. No critiques coming from the film industry or the banking industry, which want favourable government rulings.

It is a little unrealistic to expect business groups like the Canadian Council for Chief Executives to take the government to task when its membership includes such regular recipients of government largesse like Bombardier, Ballard Power Systems, General Motors and SNC-Lavalin.

While the budget outlined billions more in new spending for well-connected groups, we can console ourselves with a $16 tax saving for the individual.

Government subsidies hurt the economy. How much are we willing to pay to secure one job in the auto manufacturing sector? Specifically, how many tax dollars are we willing to divert from other areas, including our own pocket, to help the shareholders and highly paid workers of big American auto companies?

About $435 million, or $870,000 per job. That is about right. That is the amount the federal and Ontario governments have decided to fork over to American mega-corporation General Motors in order to create 500 new jobs in three Ontario communities: Ingersoll, Oshawa and St. Catharines.

How many jobs are we willing to kill in order to create these 500 jobs? Unfortunately, when government spends $435 million on a business subsidy, it takes the money from somewhere. It can tax individuals, businesses or borrow it, but in each case, there are consequences.

Then there is the problem of regional disparity. The west coast port capacity is a national asset for the whole economy, yet Fraser Port, the number two port in Canada, is unreasonably burdened with the cost of dredging the river and federal dumping fees for sand. It is a special case. Forget the subsidies. Just do not tax away its future in the first place and let business get on with business.

Money taxed away from individuals results in less consumption or investment, which hurts business growth in other areas. Money taxed away from businesses robs them of the opportunity to expand their own operations, such as Fraser Port. Government debt charges eat up future revenues and expenditures.

There is a tremendous amount of research available that estimates that the so-called deadweight cost to the overall economy of government subsidies. The estimates vary but the majority put the cost to the economy of every dollar the government spends on subsidies at between $1.30 and $1.50.

Interestingly, the discussion surrounding health care is dominated by those who place far more value on saluting ideology of public health care as opposed to the delivery of timely quality care and the measurement of patient outcomes. That is the underlying reason why record amounts of money are spent on health care with few positive results. For the majority of the population, no specifics are needed as long as more money is spent within the public system.

The delusion of describing ourselves as a nation of peacekeepers becomes more laughable by the month as recent reports make it clear we cannot even equip our small band of front line personnel with standard-issue military boots.

The recent federal budget is another wonderful example of our love affair with talk. Virtually every media report heralded the major commitment to military spending, when nearly 80% of the promised spending does not even kick in until 2009 when this Prime Minister is long gone. According to the National Post's Chris Wattie, more than one-third of this year's new defence spending is offset by other cuts to the military budget.

Just like our firm commitment to Kyoto, phrases like “universal health care” and “a nation of peacekeepers” sound so good, but they are really hollow in practice. Today one does not have to be innovative, courageous, ethical or hard working to lead this country, one just has to care more than the average Canadian.

However, without meaningful action, we are mired in a fantasy world that, among other things, dooms thousands of natives to live in abject poverty, forces patients to wait months for life-altering surgery, makes Canada a bit player on the world stage, and has a comedian as the centrepiece of a non-existent Kyoto plan. We can only hope for the sake of this country that next year's budget will be a Conservative budget.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member finished off his speech on the military. I am aware that we are talking about $12.8 billion in additional funding over five years, which is the largest increase in defence spending in the last 20 years. I do not think I have to convince the member or anyone in the House about the importance of investing in our military.

We are going to expand the Canadian Forces by 5,000 and the reserves by 3,000, and we are going to strengthen military operations by improved training and additional equipment, as well as acquiring the additional helicopters, and I believe there are other projects with regard to international obligations. How could anyone imagine that all of this would happen in one fiscal period as opposed to being spread over the period during which these things would have to unfold and be capable of being done? The implication is that the moneys are being spread over five years for financial reasons as opposed to being reflective of the timeframe over which these matters can be done.

I wonder if the member would like to comment.

[Paul Forseth, Conservative, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we appreciate at least the recognition of the military spending capacity. Change begins with the recognition that a problem exists, but I would have certainly liked to see one specific measure in the budget for this fiscal year that would be delivered and that would help.

For example, if we are to increase our recruits, we have to treat them properly. One of the ongoing difficulties within the military is living expenses and the cost of rents on the bases for inadequate housing. The helicopter decision was a tragic one that was made during the election of 1993. The government has had since 1993 to get on with reordering priorities for the military, and it has not produced it.

The address of the problem in the budget has been more for political reasons rather than to deliver any substantive result for the military at this time. We have to see some results this year.

The essential point I made in my speech was that any promise in the budget that is beyond the next fiscal year is basically a fantasy. Many other budgets will come down between now and then. It is fine for policy papers to outline projected spending into the future, where we should be going, et cetera. The House is full of that. The departmental shelves are full of long term studies, but specific budgets are measured year by year. I wanted to see some concrete measures in this fiscal year where the military could see that we were making gains in the proper direction.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this morning, I listened closely to the remarks on the budget made by both Conservatives and Liberals. As I indicated to his colleague from the Conservative Party who spoke previously, I find it quite odd that the hon. member would oppose the budget and, at the same time, arrange to have the budget passed while also opposing the Bloc Québécois' subamendment designed to improve this budget, which we feel needs improving.

This less than obvious position of the Conservatives is surprising to us. We are trying to understand the rationale, but we are having a little difficulty.

I would like to ask the following question of my colleague who just spoke on the budget. He talked about military spending. He described this budget as almost a Conservative one, and so on.

He was, however, as quiet about the environmental aspect of the budget as the budget is about Kyoto. I would like to hear him on the environmental aspect of the budget, on the funding that should be allocated to the Kyoto protocol and the plan to be implemented in connection with the billions in spending for the environment.

[Paul Forseth, Conservative, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, members of the Bloc have to come from a perspective of a government in waiting, and they have a tough time getting around that issue. They will never be the government and they do not have to address their minds to that perspective.

There is a separate issue between describing an alternative budget and criticizing the current budget and whether we shall have an election or not. Technically in the House, the role of Parliament is to approve the spending plans of government. If it does not approve them, then we have an election. Unfortunately, we are caught in that situation with a minority Parliament.

We can clearly outline our criticisms of the budget and people can hear that. They are not stupid. They can read the material. They also can give us the same message that they do not want an election. That is what they have told us. This is not some game-playing from the Conservative Party. If members go out and do some polling in their communities, they will come back and say that it is not time for an election. The people have given us a minority Parliament and we will make it work.

However, we are dealing with the budget. We are dealing with the material and the work at hand in front of us today, and we are outlining alternatives as to how that budget should be addressed.

Concerning the environment, the problem the Bloc has is it continues to confuse pollution and environmental cleanup with the issue of Kyoto and climate change. They are only related at a distance. The issues of Kyoto deal with water vapour and carbon dioxide, which are vital to life, and the theory that perhaps the predominance of that from human activity will change climate to such a detrimental point of view that it will affect the economy and the health of the world. We have to look at how much we are spending on the climate change issue rather than perhaps not spending enough on environmental cleanup, pollution regulations and enforcement.

That is our criticism as far as environmental spending. Let us deal with the very serious issues of clean water, clean air, eliminating brownfields and living responsibly. Then we can address climate change as a lower priority.

[Steven Fletcher, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James, MB]

Mr. Speaker, as health critic, I will focus on some of the health aspects of the budget.

I find it very interesting, when we look back on the election, that the Liberal promise was to fix health care for a generation. Yet we see nothing in the budget that deals with a generation or even with the short term crisis we see in the health care system today. The budget only puts some of the money back that the Liberals ripped out of the system in the mid-1990s. Despite some of the funding commitments, the budget is still full of questionable initiatives and glaring omissions.

In 2004 the government will direct $150 million worth of gasoline tax to pay for medical diagnostic equipment. The question is, why will gas taxes be used for medical equipment? Are gas taxes not intended for transportation related areas? What is next? Will the GST be earmarked for the Governor General?

The government again fails in the budget to make any commitments to compensate the hepatitis C victims affected by tainted blood pre-1986 and post-1990. The hepatitis C fund is extended for a year, which offers no long term commitment to help all the victims. The health of hundreds and even thousands of people infected with this virus depends upon a national strategy to help address hepatitis C. Furthermore, those infected by tainted blood before and after the 1986-1990 window have never received adequate compensation. Therefore, the government has failed on two fronts: one, addressing a national health problem; and two, ending a grave injustice which was caused in large part by the government.

The government will take five years to develop a mock vaccine. This is far too long a time to wait. Health officials have warned an epidemic could happen at any time.

The budget only offers a one time commitment for catastrophic drugs, $500 million in 2005-06. There is no long term commitment to this necessary measure. Both the Romanow and Kirby reports recommended that the federal government establish catastrophic prescription drug insurance plan as an important first step in reducing disparities in drug coverage and enhancing access to needed drug therapy.

One in ten Canadians do not have adequate drug coverage for catastrophic drug needs and are at high risk for financial hardship from prescription drug expenses paid out of his or her own pockets. It is inexcusable that this budget does nothing to address the disparities that prevent the most disadvantaged from receiving health care.

I will note that the Conservative Party had a plan in the last election for catastrophic drug coverage. Since the Liberals seem to sometime try to use our platform ideas, that would have been a good one to cherry pick, but again they always forget to pick the good ones.

Furthermore, the budget commits $170 million over five years to help ensure the safety and effectiveness of drugs and other therapeutic products. The government has already committed $1.2 billion to Infoway to improve drug safety by creating electronic patient records. Yet hardly any of the $1.2 billion has been spent. It sits unused in a bank account while patients continue to get sick or die due to prescription errors and other complications. It is unlikely that a further $170 million commitment to improve drug safety will be put to any better use than the unused billions that sit in health related government foundations like Infoway.

In reality it matters little how much the Liberals commit to health care if Canadians have no way of knowing what effect their money is having on the system. As the ultimate authority in health care, the federal government affects the health and well-being of Canadians. It should therefore accept responsibility for decisions made and the actions taken that affect the health care system. Yet the Liberals, the self-declared defenders of health care and guardians of the Canada Health Act, consistently avoid answering for their mismanagement and deceit. Thanks in large part to the lack of transparency and parliamentary oversight, the Liberals do not have to account for the results of their decisions.

As someone who has relied on the health care system in the past, I find the lack of accountability deeply troubling. Some examples are $4.25 billion will be paid to a third party trust from which the wait time reduction transfers will be paid, according to this budget. Reducing wait times is important and necessary, but yet again the Liberals conceal their more selfish intentions and hide behind a cloak of secrecy. Recently released legislation will give the Minister of Finance or Minister of Health the ability to add any amount of money to the wait time reduction trust whenever he wants. This is yet another means by which the Liberals can hide money and distort the budget surpluses.

It is very concerning that these foundations are unable to be audited by the Auditor General. How do we know if the moneys are being spent appropriately? The fact is we do not. If we use what we do know about the Liberal government, moneys are being wasted on these foundations too. I hope this is not the case, but it may be.

We have creeping privatization by stealth. Of the $125 billion spent per year on health, $30 billion is on private care. Yet the annual government health report fails to even mention private care at all. No mention is made in the reports of the 34 private MRI clinics that operate across Canada, despite the health minister's ongoing attack on clinics in the western provinces.

Federally delivered health care services are under-reported. Several federal government departments are responsible for health care delivery to specific groups of Canadians. Despite being the fifth largest provider of health care in the country, the federal government provides limited information about this.

The annual report on the Canada Health Act fails to mention how federally delivered programs adhere to the Canada Health Act. Furthermore, the recent report on health indicators provided limited information on first nations health because of insufficient data.

Health Canada seems to have a culture of secrecy. Vital health information is often kept from the public. For example, reports have shown that the department knew of health risks posed by certain drugs, including Vioxx, but did not act upon this information. The entire drug approval process has since been revealed as biased toward pharmaceutical companies. Vioxx received fast track approval, which can be beneficial, but still, due to the cloak of secrecy and lack of transparency, it is not clear what the process was in these cases.

At a recent health committee meeting, a Health Canada official revealed that in the late 1970s the department did not reveal known dangerous effects of smoking, despite public interest in such information. Has anything changed since then? We do not know, but probably unfortunately not.

Medical errors cause the death of 24,000 Canadians each year. There are methods to help address this, again, things like Infoway, but the government seems to continuously fail to address the issues of transparency and accountability and refuses to allow the Auditor General to audit these foundations so that taxpayers can have assurances that they are getting value for their money.

To sum up, let me say that the budget may commit the government to reinvesting some of the money it stole from the system a decade ago. I am hopeful that it is not too late for the funding to have an effect.

Despite the money, I remain skeptical that the Liberals are truly committed to improving the system so that all Canadians can have access to the best possible health care. The glaring omissions in this budget indicate contempt toward some of those who are most in need.

Besides, the systemic lack of accountability, which the Liberals aid and abet to hide their mismanagement and ineptitude, leaves me with little faith that the money the budget committed to health will actually be well spent. Rest assured the Conservatives will be watching closely.

I would also like to point out that the Conservative platform in the last election was much more realistic and much more transparent. We estimated accurately the revenues coming into the government and we were able to make public policy decisions based on that information.

That is how our platform rolled out. The Liberals criticized it, but history has shown that the Conservatives were right and the Liberals were wrong. Is that not the truth? It happens time and time again that Conservatives are right and Liberals are wrong and it has happened on this budget as well.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for his comments. He did a lot of research. I would point out a couple of errors wherein he might have had some factual difficulties in his research and allow him to comment.

First, on the question of the catastrophic drugs, that is not an item isolated and identified in the budget. It is part of the $41 billion 10 year agreement under the pharmaceutical strategy and is to be worked out by the federal and the provincial governments.

The second point is that the gas tax is returned to the municipalities and is not in any way part of the medical equipment fund. They are two completely separate issues.

Third, Infoway has announced projects and has rolled out about $170 million. As the projects come in, if vital they are financed by the Infoway board, which is made up of all the provinces. This is not a quick political rollout, but something that is to be effective.

Last, I think I should correct the question of the wait times reduction fund. It is indeed a fund, a trust fund established by the federal government to give money to the provincial governments, with the money rolled out by the trustees under criteria, not the foundation. The trustees have no decision making power; all the power is with the provinces to withdraw money as they see fit to meet the objectives. Again, it is not the foundation, but the trust fund. There is a very important difference. Perhaps the member would like to clarify his points.

[Steven Fletcher, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I certainly look forward to discussing these points with the member afterwards, but he has been quite misleading. On Infoway, for example, the health committee passed a motion just the other day to give the Auditor General the ability to go into Infoway to see if taxpayers are getting value for their money. I will point out that the opposition parties, the Conservatives, the Bloc, and the NDP, all voted in favour of this motion. The Liberals voted against it, which suggests that the Liberals are afraid of transparency, afraid of accountability and afraid that they may get caught with their hands in the cookie jar again.

With regard to the specific wording of my presentation, the overall intent is to show that billions of dollars have been set aside without the accountability or the transparency that Canadians expect when they pay their taxes. Again it is the Liberal government putting aside moneys that could be used in ways that Canadians do not want those moneys to be used.

With respect to the member's other comments, the Liberal government often takes money from, for example, gas revenues and puts it into other ventures. Liberals have been quoted in the past as saying that they would use money from the gas tax for diagnostic equipment. That is something that has been stated in the past and it is not where Canadians expect the money to go.

Canadians expect value for their tax dollars. Everyone would be happy to pay taxes and contribute to the nation's government if they knew that the money was going to be used to make the lives of their fellow citizens better. We have seen the Liberals waste billions of dollars time and time again, whether it was on the gun registry or slush funds or whatever. That really undermines Canadians' confidence in the Liberal government and it undermines Canadians' confidence in the Liberal budget.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, to reassure my colleague who just spoke, I can tell him that the interpretation was interrupted for about 40 seconds. Since we were listening attentively to his speech, we were able to point this out right away. So he did not have to begin all over again. We clearly heard him and, above all, we listened attentively.

I want to thank my colleague for one part of his speech that I particularly enjoyed. I am talking about the part on accountability and when he asks the Auditor General to look at how the funds are administered by, for example, the Canada Health Infoway and the other foundations.

I am happy to learn from his speech that the Standing Committee on Health introduced a motion on this, which was carried by a majority vote. I also want to remind him that his party devoted an opposition day to this subject. That motion won by a majority vote in the House. However, since he has shared this with me, I will gladly share with him that, on March 21, we will be discussing Bill C-277 in the House, to allow the Auditor General to audit all the foundations. His party, through the chair of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, has already shown support.

So, I would like to hear his comments on this part, whether he agrees with giving the Auditor General oversight with regard to the Canada Health Infoway and all the other foundations too? Also, once he has read the bill, does he intend to support all legislation seeking to achieve that objective?

[Steven Fletcher, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I have not seen the bill itself, but I think the intent of auditing the foundations is a good one. The Canadian people need to have confidence that the moneys they are contributing through their hard work are going to the initiatives they expect those moneys to go to.

As we have seen with the ad scandal and other Liberal slush funds and boondoggles, Canadians are not receiving value for significant amounts of their tax dollars. I am sure the hon. member would agree.

Anything that enhances transparency and accountability is important. All the opposition parties agree on that point, as demonstrated at the health committee. The only party that seems to disagree with accountability, transparency and value for money is the governing party. It is very disturbing, and I think most Canadians would agree.

One can only conclude that either there is a total disrespect for Canadian tax dollars or something funny is going on in these foundations. I look forward to working with anyone who shares our commitment, the commitment of the Conservative Party to financial accountability, transparency and value for Canadian taxpayers.