Debates of May 19th, 2005

Budget Implementation Act, 2005

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity to speak to Bill C-43 before the subsequent amendments and motions to be put.

I would first like to thank the Conservative Party for agreeing to support Bill C-43 today. The first inclination of the leader of the Conservative Party was that it was a good budget and that it was one his party could work with. We appreciate that.

The issue, however, has gone a little farther now. In my view, the debate has gone on for some time with regard to the amendments or the additions that have been made for the budgetary purposes included in Bill C-48.

In the main budget, Bill C-43, and I do not want to get into great detail, but members will recall that the range of the key items include health care, the Atlantic accord, the exercise of transfers of additional funds to our cities, the gas tax, day care, the military and a range of other important initiatives which have been well debated in this place.

The reality is that the Government of Canada is a minority government. I think everyone knows from the lessons of history what happens when a minority government tries to govern as if it has a majority. It is an untenable situation in which to be. It means there has to be a higher level of cooperation and give and take within Parliament. It has been so long since the last minority government , which was in 1980 and which fell in nine months, that it is taking a bit of time for the various parties to find their niche as to how we can make Parliament work.

Bill C-48 was the first concrete effort in which cooperation was made to show Canadians that a minority government could work. It is not the only item. Members well know that a large number of bills are at various stages of the legislative process, many of them in late stages in committee and ready to come back to this place for debate. They are important.

One of the bills that is very important to me is the whistleblower protection bill in government operations. It was here in the last Parliament. We are very close and I want the bill to come back. I want public servants, the important people who serve Canadians, to have whistleblower protection. It is a commitment of the government and in fact has the support of all parties. I think it would be a real shame if the budget were to go down and that legislation would die yet again before the House has had an opportunity to take it through all stages.

With regard to the so-called budget amendments, one thing I learned just recently was to look at the calendarization of the incremental spending that is being proposed in Bill C-48 and what impact it has. Interestingly enough, when one calendarizes the $4.6 billion, one sees that in the first year the impact is 1% of the total budget. It is a 1% increase in the total budget.

It is not an exorbitant amount in which someone would start to question whether the financial fundamentals on which the original budget was based have been compromised. If I could remind members, those are to include things like the $3 billion contingency fund on the principle that Canada will not go into a deficit. A $3 billion contingency fund has always been built into the budget.

There are also prudence factors which take into account that there are always estimates about what economic growth might be over the budget period and what short and long term interest rates might be. In the budget process, and I believe this has been articulated in every budget since 1997, there will be a conservative estimate of each of those made so that we err on the side of prudence. There is a prudence factor, which has varied from time to time, but it is in the range of about $2 billion.

When the Minister of Finance goes before the people of Canada and announces that we will have a balanced budget, the documents will show that it includes the assumption that the contingency of $3 billion and a prudence of $2 billion or $3 billion have in fact been necessary to be used. In fact, members should look at the budget as being the worst possible case that we can project, which is a balanced budget, no deficit but no surplus.

Because we have not had a recession in Canada for a long time, as members well know, and I am not sure whether any of the experts had ever anticipated that would be the case, we have gone through a very healthy economic climate in Canada as a consequence of the work of business and the people of Canada. We did not go into recession when the U.S. went into recession in the last round that it did.

As a result of the economic performance in Canada and the prudent budgeting principles that were included in the budget, surpluses have been created. Some would say that if surpluses have been created then obviously the people are being overtaxed.

Part of the equation of making a resilient economy, a resilient prudent and responsible fiscal position, is to manage the debt.

When we came here some 42¢ on every dollar was going to pay interest on the debt. Since that time we have paid down almost $60 billion of debt. The savings on the interest is what some economists have referred to as the fiscal dividend. When we get our economic house in order and there are savings, where do those savings come from? The permanent savings are the savings on the interest of financing the debt. That means that we have saved $2 billion to $3 billion annually on interest payments. These numbers keep going up because of the interest rate scenarios. This is an additional $3 billion each and every year available to sustain the important programs that Canadians want and, as time permits or as the finances permit, to introduce new programs, such as the additional moneys that have now been put into day care, another important initiative that Canadians want, or into cities, Kyoto, the military and foreign aid. We have certain priorities but they all cannot be dealt with in every budget at the same time.

However Bill C-48 brings in some other aspects. I know some members have suggested that this is just buying votes. I am not sure whether there is anyone in this place who would say that assistance for post-secondary education is inappropriate. I am not sure if anyone would vote against that. I think it is helpful. We need an educated workforce. We need to help those young people coming up to have the best possible education and be able to afford it.

Another element in Bill C-48 is additional moneys with regard to foreign aid. I do not know about other members but when I hear the details of the situation in the Sudan, particularly in Darfur, I get very concerned. How can I feel comfortable as a Canadian or happy as a person when I know there are people elsewhere in the world who have no chance to be happy, who are hungry, who do not have a roof over their heads, who have no security and whose lives are at risk? Foreign aid is an important aspect and it is important that Canada continue to play the appropriate role it can in leadership ways, as well as in providing aid to people.

What else is included in Bill C-48? Additional moneys with regard to the environment, for housing retrofits. Every little step that we can invest in ensuring our air is safe and clean and that we are dealing with greenhouse gases that affect climate change is important. Everyone knows that what comes with the creation of greenhouse gases are the health impacts created by the particulate matters. The investment in the environment is very much a health issue. Who in this place would be against the health issue?

Finally, with regard to Bill C-48, there is affordable housing. I will have to tell members that I will debate anybody in this place at any time about the importance of providing affordable housing for those who need it. Every time we touch one level of housing, if there is more affordable housing that means people who are currently in social housing may be able to now move forward into the next level, it will free up social housing.

I believe this is a good news story. I am very hopeful that Bill C-43 and Bill C-48 will pass. All Canadians in all regions of the country will benefit from this and it will demonstrate to Canadians that Parliament is working.

[Loyola Hearn, Conservative, St. John's South, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to the hon. member opposite. He is a person, over the few years I have been here, who has a social conscience, as I hope many of us here do, and his concern for the needs of society are probably second to none.

I have no argument whatsoever that people need money for education. One need only to check Hansard to see how often I have raised the need for investment in education. I have no doubt that we need shelters for the homeless. We have abandoned the people on the lower end of our society, people who cannot help themselves.

However I do have one concern. If the Liberals have the feeling that we must help people, that we must invest in education and that we must invest in housing to help the homeless, why is the money in Bill C-48, which he says must pass because we need to do this for these people, and not in the original budget? Why did the Liberals not think about these people when they brought down the budget? Why was it not brought in until they had to buy the NDP for a quarter of a billion dollars each to get its support to stay in power? How can they justify that in the eyes of the public?

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member is well aware that this is a minority government and that it requires a greater level of cooperation among all parties.

Bill C-43 comes forward with the budget. It probably would be naive to think that in every budget we could deal effectively with every issue that is important. I think we need to look at a series of budgets. We need to look at what was put in place to make the environment correct so the next thing can happen.

We always talk about post-secondary education, foreign aid, the environment and housing, and these are important issues, but we do have existing programs. However, to be even more blunt about the realities, this is what the government felt was prudent in terms of presenting a budget that would get the opposition on side.

I mentioned in my speech that the additional amounts were only a 1% increase in the overall budget. It was not a major diversion but certainly supportive of principles which we as a party do in fact support.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the member opposite speak of assistance for post-secondary education and social housing. If I have understood properly, if we are going to have an election campaign, this will be an important topic for the Liberal Party. What is the NDP's role in this? It will once again have served the interests of the Liberal Party.

Reference was made to the environment. Money going to the environment is intended to help the oil and gas companies and the auto industry in Ontario. Is the government providing any help at all to enable consumers to buy hybrid vehicles, apart from a little assistance to Quebec? This is what we have been requesting, and it would encourage the industry to produce them and make them available at a better price. No mention is made of it, however.

They talk of the deficit. I would, however, remind the party opposite that the unemployed paid off the deficit, as did the provinces in the budget transfers. In this regard, I would ask the member opposite to tell me when his party will implement the promises it made to the NDP.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member has raised more items than I can properly address and do them justice in the time allotted. All I can say is that all of the premiers got together. They agreed on the equalization and on the fiscal balance within the federation.

The member and a previous speaker for the Bloc wanted to talk about EI. Let me remind the member, and the House for that matter, there is legislation guiding the notional EI fund. It says that to the extent there is a surplus, there must be at least a couple of years of surplus there. To the extent that there is a surplus in excess of what is required for emergency purposes, for example, a major recession, either EI premiums must come down or new programs must be introduced to bring down that surplus.

That is exactly what happens. The moneys of the existing surplus in excess of the amount necessary are still there and available to go down. We have reduced the EI premiums each and every year since 1993.

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to join in the debate on Bill C-43. I want to comment on a couple of areas that have come up in the debate and I hope not to bore anyone by being repetitious.

My colleague from Mississauga South praised the government on its support for education and for keeping tuition rates down. He indicated that this was a great move by the government. I want to remind him that the only thing that was in the initial bill with respect to support for students was that if they happened to die, they would not have to pay. That was all. That can be found on pages 89 and 90 of Bill C-43.

The New Democratic Party told the Liberal government that was not good enough. Students across the country need to know they can afford their education. The government needs to provide some support to the provinces and to the universities and colleges to help keep tuition rates down so students can afford to go to school. Education is crucially important.

The NDP moved to get the Liberals to change some of the budget to reflect the different process, and that is what the Conservatives are criticizing. The Conservatives are criticizing the NDP for acting on behalf of students in Canada to keep tuition rates down.

They can go ahead and tell all the students in Canada that the NDP was bought by keeping their tuition rates down. They can go out there and tell it like it is. They can say we were bought by keeping tuition rates down instead of giving corporate tax cuts. I am proud of that.

The Conservatives should be ashamed for criticizing the fact that we arranged additional dollars to keep tuition rates down. Quite frankly, the Liberals should be ashamed that they had to be forced into a situation in order for students to get that. Throughout their campaigns they promised to help students. They promised to help them afford their education. They did not do that. Prior to the NDP agreement, students would not have to pay their debt if they happened to die. That was all the Liberals gave them.

Other Liberal promises were made during the election and some have come up a number of times since then. During the last campaign the Liberals promised dollars for child care, dollars for affordable housing and dollars for education. They also promised dollars for aboriginal communities like we could not imagine. They promised millions of dollars to aboriginal communities for infrastructure, for roads, water, and education for aboriginal students. What did the Liberals offer in the budget? Zip. It is shameful.

The New Democratic Party made sure that part of the dollars for affordable housing would go to aboriginal communities where there is the greatest housing needs in this country. We made sure that the money was marked for aboriginal housing because we know it would never flow to those communities otherwise. It is all promises.

During the last election I listened to the President of the Treasury Board promise money to a community in my riding. The government had promised that same money three years ago but it had never been paid out. The government made a big news announcement but it was the same money from before. The government promised the same money again to the same community. The reality is that money is not going to flow unless the New Democratic Party is here to hold the government accountable because it did not follow through on its promises in the last election.

The government made promises to assist in education. The New Democratic Party made sure some of those dollars would go to aboriginal education assistance. What did the Liberal government do? It is going to tax the support dollars that first nations students get.

The Auditor General identified education for aboriginal people as a crucial area. We have improved some of the access for first nations and aboriginal people to education. We are going to give them some additional dollars. What is the government going to do?

Aboriginal students have to leave their communities to get an education. Heaven only knows, we are just starting to see senior high schools in first nations communities. They were disallowed for decades by a plan to keep aboriginal people uneducated, and there is no doubt in my mind that is what it was. Some communities are just beginning to get senior high schools, and the government is going to tax what little dollars aboriginal students are getting to go to school.

After there was an outcry, the Liberals said they would look at it again and see what they could do and come back to it in 2006. Of course they would say that, because they are pretty sure there will be an election. Once again they promised to look at it. They did not fix the situation. They made another Liberal promise. The only way that Liberal promise will be kept is if the New Democratic Party is here to make sure that those promises are kept.

My Bloc and Conservative colleagues are a little touchy about this. They are upset that the NDP made a deal to get a better budget. Anybody who has negotiated, whether they be union people or business people, knows that in negotiating, we go back and forth, saying, “Okay, you give this and we will do this”. That is what negotiations are about. It happens all the time in the House on pieces of legislation. Members can talk all they want that things do not get changed. We all know there is negotiation behind the scenes to get changes made.

The reality is that we were not happy with that first budget because it did not give back to Canadians what they rightfully deserve. They deserve to benefit from their tax dollars. We did not want to see increased corporate tax cuts. There had already been a number of corporate tax cuts over the years. I am not denying that if there is lots of money out there and we can afford it, go ahead. The reality was that the government was paying for it on the backs of everyday ordinary working Canadians who do not have the kind of money that the corporations have. That was not acceptable to us, so we negotiated a deal.

How can that be wrong? How can it be wrong for us to negotiate on behalf of the Canadian people for a better budget for them? The Bloc members and the Conservatives, and the Liberals as well, should go out there and tell Canadians how much better the budget is because of the work the NDP did. The Bloc and Conservatives should go out there and criticize that Canadians have more money for education, affordable housing and child care and that more dollars will go to foreign aid. They should go out there and tell Canadians that it is happening because the NDP made it happen. That would be truthful in the next campaign and throughout the next number of days. That is why we are seeing a much better budget than we had before.

The other part of the changes that I have not mentioned is in the area of meeting our Kyoto commitments. We strongly support changes within our industries that will help to benefit the environment. We have a plan on implementing Kyoto and trying to meet the needs to address the ongoing climate change.

Anybody who lives anywhere in Canada over the last number of years has seen how our weather has changed and how it is affecting our environment. Certainly in my riding, the northern part of Churchill where the polar bears are, it is having a drastic impact. Already we can see the impact on our polar bear population. It is not something we have to worry about 10 years down the road. We are already seeing those changes. I do not have to be convinced there is a problem out there, so we are committed to implementing our Kyoto plan.

The Liberal government talked a fine line on Kyoto and sustainability, but there was nothing concrete. We ensured that there were more dollars there for the environment and for Kyoto.

I will try to wrap up really quickly. There is no question that the budget is not great. There is no question that we are not happy with the fact that there are no changes to EI. We know that the government is using the EI fund to offset its surpluses and there needs to be changes, but we got a better budget. It is not perfect, but it is a better budget. It is a budget for Canadians.

[Merv Tweed, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I find it interesting. On the other side of the House we hear one member talk about the new NDP budget being 1% of the budget that was presented only a few weeks ago. What the member fails to suggest is the program spending on that side of the House has gone up almost 50% in the last 10 years, so this is on top of it.

I want to ask the member for Churchill a question. In her comments she talked about all the promises made by a government that were broken. I would like to add, and I am sure the member would agree, that it was that government that said it would eliminate the GST. It was that government that said it would tear up the NAFTA. It was that government that said, I think in red books one, two and three, it would introduce a child care program for all Canadians.

Based on the track record of the current government and its inability to fulfill the promises it already has made to Canadians, why is the member convinced that the current government will do anything with those promises which have been added outside of the first budget, or what we call the NDP budget, and not break them?

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the ultimate answer is more New Democrat members in the House. We have an opposition, the Conservatives and the Bloc, that has huge numbers.

I want to point out that the Conservatives supported the first budget, which did not have near what is in there now. Therefore, I find it hard to be critical of the NDP now getting something better for Canadians, and that we should feel bad about that. It is not perfect, but it is better.

As I indicated, we are very disappointed that we could not get movement on the EI fund and have those dollars spent where they should be spent. It is not a matter of continually lowering premiums. We need to see an improvement in benefits which were cut year after year, again with the support of the Conservatives.

There had been numerous program cuts. Those program cuts happened at a time when there was an increase of Conservative members and less New Democrats. We have a minority government. Right now we have a situation that is better for Canadians and we will do whatever we can in the House, even if we are limited in numbers, to do what is best for Canadians.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I noted the comments by my colleague from the New Democratic Party. To my knowledge, this party's traditional allies are workers, through their unions. I find it odd for them to be bragging about all sorts of things, especially what is good for Canadians. I return to the remarks of the Liberal Party renegade, who said as recently as yesterday that what is good for Canadians is not good for Quebec and vice versa. This is what the member opposite has just said. She is in fact saying that it is good for Canadians.

I would point out that all their demands were at cross purposes with Quebec. For Quebec to agree to their demands, its areas of jurisdiction would have had to be taken into account in their implementation. When student bursaries and help for social housing are called for, it must not be forgotten that Quebec manages these programs. The funds were obtained at the national level and are managed by the government.

In this regard, I ask the hon. member, when does she think the NDP will get the money promised to help the public?

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, with the make-up of the number of provinces and territories in Canada, there is no question that we often have jurisdictional disputes. I deal with them every day. There are always jurisdictional disputes with provincial, municipal and first nation governments. We have to respect the jurisdictions of the provinces.

When I say what is best for Canadians, I also include Quebec among Canadians. I know there are some who do not want to see that happen, but I always have acknowledged Quebeckers as Canadians in the same way I have acknowledged people from Saskatchewan as Canadians, or people from Alberta as Canadians and others. We are all part of one great country and we need to respect that as well.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to put a few thoughts on the record where Bill C-43 is concerned and perhaps to speak somewhat as well, flowing from that, on Bill C-48.

However, first, there were some things in Bill C-43 that we as a party appreciated and could support, but there was more in it that we could not. Because we could not support it, we voted against it, primarily because of the surprise in it, the Trojan Horse so to speak. It contained the next round of corporate tax breaks which we thought were unnecessary. They were not in keeping with the discussions our party and our finance critic had with the Minister of Finance on the Liberals' commitment during the election.

Based on the Liberal platform and the conversations we had with individual ministers, the commitment was not in any concrete way included in the budget. All of sudden, in an agreement to win the support of the Conservatives, significant corporate tax breaks were included in the budget which would take another $4.6 billion out of the public treasury. We felt that money should have been, and will be if we pass Bill C-48 tonight, spent on the priorities of Canadians for their communities, their children, their aging parents and their infrastructure.

The tax breaks in our view were yet another gift to those in our country who already had more than enough. They have been getting corporate tax breaks for the last 10 to 15 years. When I go back and speak to my constituents, they ask me these questions. When is enough, enough for the corporations of this country and the world? When is another increase in wages to the CEOs of some of the corporations enough? When is another stock option to executives in these corporations enough? When is more income for the wealthiest of our provinces enough? When does it turn to greed?

I believe we have gone beyond that point. It is time now for us who have been given responsibilities as leaders in the country to look at those things that we need to invest in, things that will support a standard of living, which we know we can afford, for our families, our neighbours, for everybody who calls themselves Canadian.

We were not happy with the corporate tax break. However, we were pleased with the commitment that the government made to a national child care program. Unfortunately, as it rolls out, the government now finds itself in a hurry, as we seem to be going headlong toward the possibility of en election. Agreements are being made with provinces that do not fit with the framework we believed was there, those of us who were involved in the discussions, lately me more than others.

Some people in this province have been working on child care for 20 to 30 years. They have done the research and the work. They know that if we are to have a national child care program that is worth its salt, that will deliver the services we know are needed by families, by children and by the economy, it needs to be framed in legislation. It needs to be based on the quad principles. It needs to be delivered through a not for profit delivery system.

We were very excited with the first two agreements that were signed by Manitoba and Saskatchewan, two New Democrat governments that understand those principles. They understand why it is important we stick to them. We need to a program that is right from the start. This is the first national program in over 25 years. Manitoba and Saskatchewan have committed to a framework of accountability. They also have committed to a not for profit delivery system, with which we are pleased. However, we now see that Ontario, Newfoundland and Nova Scotia are getting less and less of that commitment.

However, we are getting more anxious and nervous about the way the national child care program is beginning to roll out. We know that once it gets away, it is hard to get it back into shape. We need to ensure that it truly is a national child care program, not another patchwork of child care with more money. We need to ensure that the money is spent in an appropriate way so we get the best value as an investment in our children, families and the economy.

However, money has been allocated. Reference to a national child care program was first promised by the Liberals in 1993 and the Conservatives before that. Finally, there was a reference this past year because of a significant presence of New Democrats here pushing the Liberals in that direction. It was referenced in the Speech from the Throne and then it showed up in the budget. We were pleased about that.

The economy in my community is beginning to change its direction. We used to have some valuable high paying jobs in the resource based sector of steel and paper. Those jobs are becoming fewer and fewer. We are now looking at a growing sector of call centres where people do not make as much money. They do not make anywhere near the kind of money they used to make in those valuable, unionized jobs, in the industries that were industrial heartbeat of northern Ontario.

Ontario now has jobs that are less dependable. They do not pay as much. It is important that we have a good, affordable child care system in place for parents who want to participate. If they want to make ends meet, or want to buy a house, or pay the mortgage, or feed the kids, and all the things we want for ourselves and for our families, they probably will have to work two jobs. Some work two and three jobs in the same family. If they do not have good, affordable, high quality, safe child care available to them, they will be unable to do that.

The national child care program, however incomplete it is as it rolls out, because of the lack of commitment by the government to the principles and to the not for profit delivery system, is still very important. That is why we need to pass Bill C-48, the budget we negotiated with the Liberals, tonight. We need that money in our communities and in Sault Ste. Marie. It represents a significant growth in that sector, not only spaces for families and for children, but jobs for child care workers, good jobs and more money for those people already working in the child care sector. They will have benefits, pension plans, all the things we all want for ourselves.

The national child care program is a very important. We encourage members of the Bloc and Conservative Party to ensure that the bill goes through tonight so we can move forward with these.

I want to talk briefly about the criticisms by the Conservatives over the national child care program, which are misleading at best. They talk about an investment of $5 billion to $10 billion in our young people, our children, as somehow pouring money into a big black hole. Their suggestion as to how we might do this, which would be to give tax breaks or tax credits to parents to buy their own child care, would not create a national child care system. Also, it would cost us four or five times as much money to put in place. We are talking $20 billion to $25 billion if we add up all the money.

That is not to speak of the reduction in the economy if we remove those people who are skilled and trained, women in particular, from the workforce. The analysis that has been done by people who know, the economists, tells us that it could be anywhere from $70 billion to $80 billion a year. We are talking a cost of close to $100 billion a year if we follow the plan that the Conservatives have suggested is better than the plan in the budget, which would give us a $2 return for every dollar we spend in early learning and early child care for our children.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is always entertaining to listen to NDP members talk about corporate taxes. They have such a lack of understanding about who pays corporate taxes. Corporate taxes are not paid by corporations. Corporate taxes are paid by their customers.

This NDP member comes from Sault Ste. Marie where Algoma is in constant competition with the U.S., China and every other jurisdiction that makes steel. Yet, he does not understand that it is the customers of Algoma who pay the corporate tax. Why does he not understand that by reducing corporate taxes, as was budgeted in the original budget, in 2006, 2007 and 2008 it will continue to make corporations competitive in the world?

Because corporate taxes will ultimately be paid by the corporations' customers, we are talking about making corporations less competitive. It takes away hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of Canadian jobs by not allowing Canadian corporations to be competitive with the U.S., China, Brazil, France, Korea and all of the customers with whom Algoma is in competition.

The member should be ashamed of himself for not being prepared to stand up for the workers in Sault Ste. Marie, Hamilton, British Columbia and the ones who need the jobs. It is the customers of the corporations that pay the taxes.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, we in the New Democratic caucus are indeed standing up for the workers of Sault Ste. Marie, Winnipeg, Vancouver and communities across this country. We are fighting for the health care that families and children need. We are fighting for the university education their children need, and against the phenomenal debt they have when they graduate. We are fighting for the infrastructure we need to support industries.

Economically, northern Ontario has been going downhill for the last 10 or 15 years, at a time when we have been seeing unbelievable corporate tax breaks given out to corporations across this country. As a matter of fact, Canada is very competitive with the United States in terms of its corporate tax rates and is lower in many instances.

To suggest for a second that somehow more corporate tax breaks are going to make Algoma Steel more competitive is not to understand the dynamic of the steel industry in Sault Ste. Marie, Hamilton and across the country today. The steel industry is cyclical. It is being challenged by what is happening in China and India. In actual fact, it is doing quite well right now.

Algoma Steel is doing better than it has ever done and it is because of the contribution our community has made to the restructuring of that industry, and the contribution the workers in that industry are making. The retirees who are now sitting back looking at corporate tax breaks and the kind of money that Algoma Steel is making have given up their own wages and the indexing of their pensions to in fact save that company.

The member should not lecture me on what is important to a company like Algoma Steel or the steel industry in Canada or North America.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, as these negotiations were going on for what is being called the NDP budget, which we take a great amount of pride in, one of the important things to small and medium size business owners everywhere was that their competitive advantage be maintained. In the negotiations on this tax cut, which was not talked about in the election, there was no exchange of views and it was a surprise to everybody. The NDP ensured that small and medium size businesses in Canada would not be affected by the reduction. I wonder if the hon. member would comment on the strength and vitality of that community in our sector.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I certainly can. Everybody knows that every penny invested in education, for example, is an investment in small business and industry in this country because students who obtain an education participate, contribute and compete in the global economy. Every penny we put into affordable housing means families and children can participate more actively and successfully in the education system and ultimately in our economy.

Every penny put in to protect the wages of workers across this country as small business and industry go bankrupt protects communities and families in this country. Every penny put into infrastructure, roads and our public transportation system, is an investment in our industry and small business. They all depend on it to get their products to market and to obtain supplies to produce whatever it is they are selling.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to have this opportunity to join the debate on this critically important budget bill because in my view Canada is at a crossroads. We are at a fork in the road where as a nation we have a critically important choice to make. In fact, years from now people will look back at this date of May 19, 2005 as a crossroads date for the nationstate of Canada and the direction we want to go.

I am proud and honoured to be here as a member of Parliament for the riding of Winnipeg Centre, and equally honoured to follow my colleague from Sault Ste. Marie who just enlightened and focused the House better than I have heard before on the issues that are really important to Canadians. In our small corner of the House of Commons, in this little area that is relegated to the New Democratic Party, great wisdom and great contributions flow.

In my opinion we need more New Democrats in Parliament. It is an observation that I have to make because this budget bill is an example of what good things happen when the NDP forces the Liberals to act like Liberals.

Many people voted for the Liberal Party thinking that they would get a liberal agenda. They got suckered, frankly. It is like a big hook in their mouth being led down the garden path because we have seen what 10 years of majority Liberal government looks like. It looks a lot like a Conservative government.

In fact, our current Prime Minister, when he was the finance minister, was the most right wing finance minister we have ever seen. He took us places that the Conservative Party did not dare to go. If we thought that neo-conservatism was limited to Margaret Thatcher, Brian Mulroney and Ronald Reagan, no, neo-conservatism had an anchor in this country with our current Prime Minister. He is the champion of neo-conservatism.

As fate would have it, in the last federal election, we found ourselves in the happy circumstance where more New Democrats came to Ottawa, New Democrats with some influence and with some ideas. They had a novel idea to spend some of this incredible surplus on people. What a thought. Instead of paying a tithe to Bay Street, instead of squandering it on more corporate tax cuts for people that are showing record profits already, let us spend some money on people for a change. Is that so radical a concept? Is that so strange? Can people not get minds around the idea that maybe it is our turn to have some of our tax dollars spent on our needs?

For heaven's sake, this is what we are proposing. We were all asked to tighten our belts for 10 years of austerity. The current Prime Minister, when he was finance minister, said we were left with this unbelievable deficit left by the Conservatives, the most wasteful, spendthrift government in Canadian history. It jacked up the operating deficit to $42 billion a year and jacked up the debt to $500 billion from $125 billion. That was the Conservative legacy. Not that I am any great fan of the Liberal Party, but it inherited a disaster. When he was finance minister, the Prime Minister inherited a disaster left in the wake of the most wasteful government in Canadian history, the Conservative government under Brian Mulroney.

We were asked to tighten our belts. We were told to suck it up. There was no more money for health care and no more money for education and training. But ironically, there seemed to be lots of money to give to Bay Street in terms of corporate tax cuts. In three successive budgets the Liberals lowered taxes. They reduced services to us, took our tax money, denied us benefits, and gave it to Bay Street. That was their political philosophy. It seems absurd, but that is what they did.

Now we have reached a point of time in our history where we are saying enough is enough. We were asked to tighten our belts and do without at a period of time when Bay Street was showing record profits quarter after quarter through the whole 1990s. When there was not enough money for a single thing for us, there seemed to be lots of money for Bay Street. Now we are saying to turn that faucet back on a little bit, not excessively. The spending proposals negotiated by the NDP do not even get us back to the level of spending on social programs that we were at in 1993 when the Liberals took over. It only returns some modicum of balance. It is not over the top. It is not excessive. It is giving us back some of our money. What is wrong with that?

I cannot understand this party that sells itself as the grassroots party and the party of ordinary Canadians. In the west at least, that is how it would like to promote itself. Why is it a supplicant to Bay Street? Why is it a corporate shill instead of a champion for ordinary Canadians? That is what I find bizarre to understand.

We are trying to advocate, on behalf of the average family, that a little bit more money be put into affordable housing because there are communities, frankly, in Canada today where the average working family cannot even aspire to own their own home. That is wrong in a country as wealthy as Canada.

We have communities in Canada today where both members of the family have to work just to keep their heads above water. The husband and wife have to work these days, but they cannot find child care that they can trust, where they can feel safe leaving their children. That is wrong in a country as wealthy as Canada.

I wish I had time to ask my colleague from Sault Ste. Marie some more questions because early childhood development is the single most important investment we can make. Those years between zero and five are when a child's future is determined. That is when his or her destiny is shaped. If children are in substandard, inadequate, warehouse-style, big-box day cares, they are not going to flourish and reach their full potential. We know that for a fact. This is not a left-wing prospect. This is not some fabrication by the pinkos down at this end of the House.

Charles Coffey, former vice-president of the Royal Bank of Canada, a darling of Bay Street, has written perhaps the most definitive policy paper on early childhood development, flagging this as an urgent issue for Canada to spend some money on.

We are faced with these record budget surpluses every year and the NDP, using what influence it has, manages to negotiate into that budget some spending for ordinary Canadians. What is wrong with that? How can anybody vote against that? They would have to be out of their minds.

How do they go back to their constituents and explain that. I see some Conservative MPs from Manitoba right here right now. I have in fact done the number crunching on the $4.6 billion that the NDP negotiated as a part of this budget. The $80 million will come to Manitoba for affordable housing and $65 million will come to Manitoba for post-secondary education tuition. How could that be a bad thing? Were we not sent here to bring home the bacon? Is it not our job to try and wrestle a bit of money out of Ottawa and bring it back to our constituencies? That is what we have done.

We have used the little political influence that we have down at this end of the House to negotiate something good for Canadians and now the Conservatives are threatening to vote against it. They are the ones who are going to have a tough time on the doorstep because I am going to remind people every time I go to a doorstep in the province of Manitoba that the Conservatives were opposed to bringing back $80 million for affordable housing in the province of Manitoba.

I see members who represent rural ridings in Manitoba saying that none of that money will go to their ridings. That is not true. In fact, members do not know that for a fact. They are inventing this because they are ideologically opposed to spending taxpayer money on taxpayers. They would rather give it to Bay Street. This is what is frustrating to me.

I am glad I had the opportunity to share some of my views with these people because I am astounded by their naivety and their inability to count, for one thing. Maybe if they cannot count that high, they should take their shoes off because if they have to count higher than 10, they seem unable to do that because the Conservatives were bad money managers.

The Conservatives, throughout history, have driven deficits through the ceiling. Here are some good examples. Saskatchewan and Grant Devine had seven deficit budgets in a row, whereas Allan Blakeney had nine balanced budgets in a row. The NDP knows how to balance the books, these guys do not.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it turns out that this NDP member suffers from exactly the same problem as his friend from Sault Ste. Marie. Again, NDP members have blinders on when they think somebody other than the customers of the corporation pays the corporate tax. They do not understand that as the most fundamental concept. I do not know how in the world we can ever get it through to them because they seem to be ideologically blind.

However, I must say that I agree with him that normally the NDP comes to the House as just a little small rump off in the corner, and in this particular instance the NDP has managed to actually prop up the establishment. Those NDP members have propped up the establishment of the Liberal Party, which is thoroughly corrupt in the way that they have been handling the country's finances, in the way that they have been governing this country and in the way that they have been extorting money.

It is an absolutely amazing, outstanding event that the NDP would actually come to the House and exert its influence to prop up the establishment. To that I say shame on this member.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I could not agree more with the member from British Columbia. It is my personal belief that the Liberal Party of Canada is institutionally psychopathic. Its members do not know the difference between right and wrong and I condemn them from the highest rooftops.

But before the last Liberal is led away in handcuffs, we want to extract some benefit from this Parliament and that means getting some of the money delivered to our ridings before this government collapses. Why can those members not see the sense in that?

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am so glad that the member for Winnipeg Centre came to the House. He is the member who says that before those crooks are led away he wants to make sure he gets some of their money on the basis of their promise that--

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. member for Scarborough--Rouge River on a point of order.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am rising on a point of order because the member opposite has made a reference to crooks. There was also a previous reference to handcuffs. There are a lot of people watching the proceedings of the House today and I am asking colleagues in a respectful way, including colleagues opposite, to try to keep the debate civil and to avoid unparliamentary language. We will get through the day and get to the vote tonight, but if we are not careful, we are going to have more problems than we are ready to deal with.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. member for Scarborough--Rouge River for his intervention. I encourage all members to be careful. The earlier comments referred to a political party. We certainly do not want to let this deteriorate into accusing individual members of Parliament of something.

I will ask the member for Edmonton--Sherwood Park to put his question.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Mr. Speaker, out of respect for the Chair and for this House I gladly withdraw that term. I was ill advised to use it.

I have a simple question for the member. He is the one who had the private member's bill asking for a new revision of the access to information legislation. This Prime Minister said to him to withdraw the bill and the government would make sure to give him everything he wanted in the legislation. What happened? The Minister of Justice came to committee and presented not a bill, not a draft bill, but a discussion paper. Hey, just what we needed, more time to talk about it.

The member himself was upset at the time. How does he expect that those people, who cannot be trusted, are going to deliver anything they have negotiated other than that they want to stay in power? That is what it is all about. The Liberals need to be turfed because of that.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I firmly believe that freedom of information is the oxygen that democracy breathes and that secrecy breeds corruption. It was in that spirit that I put forward a private member's bill to improve the access to information laws.

The biggest mistake I have ever made in my career was trusting the Liberal government when it asked me to withdraw my bill, saying it would give me a better bill within an immediate period of time. I got duped. I got sold a bill of goods. I got suckered in. I guarantee that it will never happen again because I have learned my lesson. I thank my colleague for reminding me of that because I still get mad every time I think about it. I was sucked in by those guys. It will not happen again.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is the House ready for the question?