Debates of May 19th, 2005

Budget Implementation Act, 2005

[Odina Desrochers, Bloc, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Madam Speaker, it is again a pleasure for me to rise in this House to speak on the budget. I should start by saying how very proud I am to be part of this crew of 54 men and women who are prepared to do battle. We are prepared to take on the ship of the Minister of Transport, which is already foundering. The sallies we will make on that ship within the next few weeks will make it possible for new crew members to be added to the Bloc Québécois crew and to show our belief in the sovereignist movement.

I am trying to find something positive in this budget. Perhaps I could have been taken in, like some Ontario NDP members, by this incomparable whitewash campaign by the Prime Minister, but the Bloc Québécois members are solid, proud and unshakeable. We did not take the bait in this blackmail operation by the PM involving provincial premiers, the NDP and the most disadvantaged members of our society.

Returning to the budget, there is absolutely nothing in it on employment insurance. I am still having to cope with an injustice in my riding, having to deal with two categories of unemployed. One group needs to accumulate 700 hours to be eligible for EI and the other has to have worked 595 hours. This injustice is the result of the fiddling around with the regions carried out by the Liberal Party of Canada. It would, however, be simple to adopt a measure we have been proposing for a long time, and to set the required number of hours worked to be eligible for EI at 360 for everyone.

I would also like to speak about seniors, those most neglected by this budget, despite their great contributions to this country. There are a large number of seniors in Lotbinière, and they have been totally neglected by the Liberal government since 1993. No sensible adjustments have been made to their pensions. They have a very small amount and are not even getting the GIS when they are entitled to it.

In its budget, the government also ignores all of the farmers' expectations. There are a lot of expectations in the Lotbinière RCM, as there are throughout Quebec. No help was provided for farmers, who have been caught up with the mad cow crisis for two years now. There has been nothing tangible from the government to indicate its support for supply management. Farming in Quebec is in a full blown crisis, and all the budget offered was money for the rest of Canada. Once again, in this budget there is nothing at all for Quebec.

Let us turn now to what I call fiscal strangulation, which was initiated and co-ordinated by the present Prime Minister while he was the Minister of Finance. The fiscal imbalance underlies many of the problems of the Government of Quebec. Regardless of who heads it, the Liberals or the PQ, the result is the same. Because of the management style in this House, which has led to the creation of the fiscal imbalance, Quebec is the big loser.

The Bloc Québécois had demanded two essential conditions by taking steps to try to shake up Liberal sensibilities. The answer was no. There is nothing for the unemployed. The government continues to refuse to recognize the fiscal imbalance, despite the unanimous vote by all parties in the National Assembly.

The day after the budget was presented, a number of mayors called my office in connection with the famous gasoline tax to find out whether they were entitled to it.

We should ensure that these funds are administered by Quebec and not by the federal government, which is trying once again through little partisan schemes to please certain municipalities to the detriment of Quebec.

This government has always been disconnected from the reality of a number of regions in Quebec. I knew already that this tax program would do absolutely nothing to help small municipalities in Quebec. I am sure, though, that if the entire envelope were transferred to Quebec, it would be able to understand the regions better. A sovereignist government would provide the amounts needed to help certain regions survive.

Continuing with the budget that has been brought down, I find it very difficult to find anything positive. I say it again: there is nothing to fix the fiscal imbalance or for employment insurance. I am going to raise another point that is very important in my riding. We have been affected by the textile crisis. People do not talk about textile plants or factories any more because, unfortunately, that is the past. This is because of the irresponsibility of this government, which left companies and workers in the textile sector to battle the really incredible things done by the Chinese.

Now we have the furniture manufacturing crisis. Several towns in my riding are dependent on this work and we know already that Chinese brands are invading our furniture dealers. Who will again suffer the consequences? It is the regions—not just mine of Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière but several regions in Quebec. We are going to lose textiles. We are losing furniture, and nothing is done. There are major tools, though, at the WTO that could enable us to support these people and have transitional measures. If somehow, in the end, we cannot get the necessary assistance, there could always be a program, which is called POWA, for people who have worked 25, 30, 35 years in companies, raising their families. Unfortunately, these people did not have the education needed to go elsewhere and they find themselves at age 52, 55, 58 with nothing left.

That is part of this entire budget and all the measures that are being adopted. Some say the Bloc Québécois has a lot to gain with this budget, but what are we to gain when there is nothing on the table? There is nothing in it for Quebec. The fiscal imbalance is a daily reality, as is the issue of employment insurance. The best they could come up with was a gift of $4.5 billion to the NDP to save face, but mostly to stay in power. That is the primary objective of this government. Just look at the Duplessis-style behaviour of the current Prime Minister trying to buy the vote of Canadians and Quebeckers.

Let me tell you something. Quebeckers are becoming wise to Liberal partisan tactics. We have learned from the events of 1980, 1981, and 1995 and we have learned even more with the Gomery inquiry. In 2005, we will send a very clear message that we no longer want this government. There remains only one true solution for Quebec to flourish and that is sovereignty. We are on our way, with support now running at 54%.

On behalf of the Bloc Québécois, on behalf of this team of proud men and women, who stick together and stand their ground, yesterday we said we are against the budget and today we still are. This evening, at 5:45 p.m., we will say nay to the Liberal government's tactics.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Madam Speaker, I would like to simply advance the same debate that I had with the member's colleague earlier today about equalization.

I did a rough calculation and I do not know if my numbers are right, but one could consider that there are around seven million people in Quebec. One could also consider that on average over the last number of years the net equalization payments into Quebec have been $10 billion a year. I am not sure whether that includes the health and social transfer or not, but it is in that neighbourhood. That works out to almost $6,000 per family.

Those members are representing their constituents from the province of Quebec, and they do so ably and work hard here. They are always here participating in the debates. I have no problem with that. They were elected by their people to be here, but surely they cannot properly represent the well-being of their constituents if they say that they want to get out of Canada and thereby lose what is a very substantial benefit per family on average in terms of the services that their government is able to provide because of these payments.

I am sure the member has an interesting answer and I will be eagerly listening to it.

[Odina Desrochers, Bloc, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Madam Speaker, if people had played by the rules in 1995, I would not have to answer such a question.

Today, and since that famous advisor, Marc Lalonde, appeared on the scene in the Liberal Party, separatists are once again being talked about as a threat. It is as though people have just discovered that Bloc Québécois MPs are sovereignists. I have a hard time understanding why federal MPs are just realizing now that our only goal is to get out of this Parliament.

It does not work and will never work. This budget proves it, as do equalization, the fiscal imbalance and employment insurance. How do they expect us to support a government that does not care about the needs of Quebec? We are prepared to leave to build a new Quebec.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Madam Speaker, I do not know if I should increase the pressure on the member, but I really would like him to answer the question that I asked which had to do with the money.

I certainly agree there are grievances that the province of Quebec has, as do other provinces, with the way the federal government is run in Ottawa. We need to work together to improve that. I also see where the Bloc members are coming from in the sense of some of these slights that Quebeckers have suffered, from their perception, in terms of our Constitution. I have some measure of sympathy for that.

The fact of the matter is still that being part of Confederation, Quebeckers are net beneficiaries of the equalization system. I know they say they pay taxes, but so does everyone else in the country. Taxpayers in Quebec though get a net benefit from the equalization program of around $6,000 per family per year. The province that I come from gets to pay about $10,000 per year per family, or even more. That is fine. I do not mind doing that. I love my neighbour. I help him whenever I can and that is great.

Why can the Bloc members not simply acknowledge that this is there and represent their constituents by working to stay in this wonderful country instead of trying to escape from it?

[Odina Desrochers, Bloc, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Madam Speaker, I invite my colleague to read a reliable study published recently by the former minister of finance, François Legault, in which he talks about an additional $18 billion. I am talking about an extra $18 billion that we would have for running Quebec. Currently, we have a shortfall of several billion dollars.

Where would I get the slightest indication that this government is pro-Quebec? I realize the Conservative member finds this difficult. Nonetheless, he need not worry. An economic association will be set up and we will continue to work side by side with the rest of Canada, since we will become a rich and prosperous country, that flourishes internationally.

[Gary Lunn, Conservative, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to rise on behalf of all of my constituents in an incredible part of this country, Saanich--Gulf Islands, to talk about the budget.

It is coming up to eight years that I have been a member of Parliament and it has been a great honour. To see what is happening now is absolutely unbelievable. There is a media frenzy as we lead up to tonight's vote. I want to talk a bit about exactly what is happening. It is important that we talk about the facts.

I do not think Canadians are fooled by what has been going on. The facts speak for themselves. The government is obviously in a desperate situation because of the Gomery commission, because of the vote buying scheme by the Liberal Party of Canada to try to prop itself up to save its existence. The only way it can do that right now is through the budget. It has taken away all the opposition supply day motions. To be quite frank, I fully expect that the Liberals will be successful tonight from what has happened. However, let us talk about they have done.

Bill C-48 could be called the NDP budget. Applaud the NDP. It was successful. It was able to go to the government and say, “No. What you told us two months ago, just toss that out the window. This is what we want”. In order to save itself that is what it has done.

It is important for every Canadian to know that Bill C-48 is exactly, in English and French, two pages long. In other words, the English version of Bill C-48 is exactly one page. When I flip the pages of Bill C-48, there is nothing on them. It is quite remarkable. The pages are blank. There is not even any ink on the page. Some staples are pushed through the paper, but the pages are absolutely blank.

I want to focus on what happens when the Liberal government comes in with legislation that is blank, with no specifics. What has been the record when we have seen that type of a slush fund?

The gun registry was about a $2 million expenditure. It was very short on details. I am unable to tell the Canadian people exactly what happened. The government sort of panicked, put money into that, and now it has grown into a $2 billion unmanageable database. It is incredible.

In the mid-1990s there was the sovereignist movement in Quebec. Of course the Liberal government was in power when all that happened, the last people to try to keep this country united. The Liberals responded by saying, “We need a sponsorship program. We are going to save the country”. Again what happened? The Liberals came in with no details and said, “Here are buckets of cash”. It is no different from this NDP budget bill. Buckets of cash. Imagine spending $4.5 billion in just a few sentences, maybe about five paragraphs. Not bad. That is probably millions of dollars per word. It is incredible.

We have found out how the government goes about spending money with no details, no substance. Let us look at some of the facts.

Between 1994 and 2001 Lafleur Communications earned 78% of its income from the federal public works department and crown corporations. Jean Lafleur earned more than $9.3 million from the sponsorship program. That one individual earned $9.3 million of taxpayers' money, but that was not enough. The government needed to throw in a little tip. His family members got another $2.8 million. Those are hard-earned taxpayers' dollars. I suggest what is in here has likely ended up with the same type of activity.

Jean Brault of Groupaction testified that he made $1.1 million in contributions to the Quebec wing of the Liberal Party and that those contributions were covered up by fake invoices. Luc Lemay, whose companies took in $36 million in sponsorship contracts, testified that he paid Jacques Corriveau, a close friend of Jean Chrétien, nearly $7 million in commissions over three years. The list goes on and on.

Numerous witnesses have come forward. Benoît Corbeil, former executive director of the federal Liberal Party's Quebec wing, the very top of the pyramid, the boss of the Liberal Party of Canada in Quebec, said that he received $100,000 from Jean Brault and used it to pay volunteers in the 2000 election campaign.

Liberals ran around across the country and sprinkled around taxpayers' money. It is unbelievable. That is the record of this Liberal government in managing the public purse. It is unrefuted. It has never been denied.

I will accept some members' comments that there are discrepancies in the testimony, that there is conflicting testimony. Absolutely there is conflicting testimony, but it is uniformly bad. Witness after witness talks about phony invoices. It is about putting Liberal Party workers on campaign payrolls.

All Liberals should hang their heads in shame, because silence is consent. None of the Liberals are standing up. They are not denying this. How this was done is the most offensive thing I have ever seen. Even worse, to add insult to injury, what have we witnessed in Parliament in the last weeks and months? A government that is embroiled in the largest scandal in Canadian political history.

What was that scandal? Let me sum it up in a few words. In essence, it was a vote buying scheme. It was taking taxpayers' money, stuffing it to their friends in the Liberal Party and volunteers in the campaigns and buying some votes. That is the essence of the sponsorship program.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. With respect to the member, the matter before the House now is Bill C-43. He talked a little about Bill C-48 and now he is talking about the Gomery inquiry. I believe it would be time to get the debate back to the relevant matters before this place.

[The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)]

Point well taken, and I would ask the hon. member for Saanich—Gulf Islands to be as relevant as he possibly can in speaking to Bill C-43.

[Gary Lunn, Conservative, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Madam Speaker, I appreciate that, but I am drawing the link as we speak. This is all very relevant. It is extremely relevant. I will explain the link. As I mentioned a moment ago, this was a vote buying scheme like we have never seen before. The Liberals have used the budget as a vote buying scheme. They went off, because they did not have the votes, to buy the votes of the NDP. It is outrageous.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Madam Speaker, I have not taken the time to go to the table to get a copy of Marleau and Montpetit, but I could cite the reference that in fact it is against the rules stated in the Standing Orders of this place that any undue influence be taken to influence the vote or the actions of another member. Effectively the member is suggesting that there has been action taken which in fact is contrary to the rules of Parliament. I believe that unless you rule otherwise, Madam Speaker, the member must in fact withdraw the allegation that there has been vote buying.

[The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)]

In response to the member for Mississauga South, I was listening very carefully to see whether the member was referring to individuals. It seemed as though they were broad-brush statements, so I will allow the member to continue. He has less than one minute left.

[Gary Lunn, Conservative, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Let me conclude, Madam Speaker, but unfortunately, it is not just about one member. I will conclude by saying that it looks like the government is going to be successful tonight, for the reasons I have just outlined.

I hope that every single Canadian in this country will remember exactly what has gone on, exactly what we have seen and exactly what the budget is all about, and that every single Canadian will see through this and will mark their ballot in the next election, which I anticipate will be next spring, for honesty and integrity.

This place is pleading for honesty and integrity. It is about time we had a government that could stand up to those words.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food (Rural Development)]

Madam Speaker, I listened to a fair bit of the member's remarks and I have to lay this on the line. He said that we should hang our heads in shame. I will tell members who should hang their heads in shame. It is those members over there who use the privileges of this House to take allegations and substantiate them as if they are facts.

First, the member who just spoke is a lawyer. Will he answer me this question? Does he see that kind of operation, in which members use allegations with the benefit of parliamentary privilege, as due process of law in terms of what he learned in law school?

Second, I stand here proud to be a member of this government. I am a proud Liberal, one who was in the government when we took this country, which was almost bankrupt, according to the New York Stock Exchange, a country that had a $42 billion annual deficit, and turned it around.

We have had eight surplus budgets. The previous prime minister and this Prime Minister, the then finance minister, should be congratulated for their fiscal management in terms of managing this country in the way it ought to be managed, in terms of creating jobs, the $100 billion in tax cuts, and this budget, the best budget we have seen in a century.

I will tell members that I stand here as a proud member of the government and I am willing to go to the polls at any time on this budget. I guarantee that we will be back here as the government so we can continue to manage responsibly and fiscally properly.

[Gary Lunn, Conservative, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Madam Speaker, I am happy to respond to my hon. colleague. He raised a number of issues.

First he talked about the Gomery commission. He made the reference that it is as a court of law, that somehow this is going to have an outcome. Clause k of the Gomery commission very clearly states that Justice Gomery is not allowed to name any single individual or any organization. Under the terms of reference, he cannot name anybody.

Second, with respect to the evidentiary process of the Gomery commission, numerous factual documents have been tabled before Justice Gomery as evidence. This is not just testimony but actual evidence and it cannot be refuted. There are letters to the current Prime Minister when he was finance minister from the head of policy for the Liberal Party saying he was aware that money from sponsorship programs was being funnelled directly into the Liberal Party for partisan purposes and asking if the minister would look into it.

These are the facts. Witness after witness, dozens of them, have testified about fake invoices, cash in envelopes, suitcases full of cash and money going to Liberal Party campaign workers. It is absolutely unreasonable and the government members try to claim they knew nothing when a lot of the front bench members who are sitting here now were front bench members back then. It is absolutely unacceptable.

In fact, I had hoped that the hon. member would stand up and acknowledge that this had happened as opposed to what he said. How can those members be trusted to clean this up when they stand up and pretend that it is just testimony, that it has not been proven? There has been a litany of witnesses for months.

Something has to change when they will not even acknowledge that. The Prime Minister has yet to deny the corruption inside the Liberal Party. When one witness says he got $100,000 and another witness says it might only have been $90,000, where does it end? It is uniformly all bad. These are admissions and confessions coming from people inside the Liberal Party in the most senior positions.

I stand by my words. I really hope that the Canadian people can look into this, mark their ballots and vote to bring in a government of honesty and integrity. It is long overdue.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Madam Speaker, as a lawyer the hon. member would know, as he said in his presentation primarily around the Gomery inquiry, that if he does not have data he cannot bring forth the case.

I want to remind him and all Canadians that it was this Prime Minister and this government that authorized the release of twelve million documents. Without those documents, all this evidence and what has gone on in the Gomery inquiry would never have happened. This Prime Minister took a very proactive lead to make sure of getting to the bottom of it.

It hurts me when the hon. member says that “all Liberals should hang their heads in shame”. I will not give an example, but that shows me that the Reform mentality is still there in that party. That is why those members are having their problems. In the last election and in every other election, certain members of that party made some very provocative statements. Does this mean that all those members are the same? I do not believe so.

Let me close with this, though, because really we are debating the budget. Does the hon. member not support putting money into post-secondary education, transport, affordable housing and international obligations, issues that the country has asked for and we have delivered on?

[Gary Lunn, Conservative, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Madam Speaker, it is the former Liberal members who are trying to shut down the Gomery commission. I stand by my words: that if we approve this budget they are naive to think it will go to a--

[The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)]

Resuming debate, the member for Acadie—Bathurst.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Madam Speaker, I wish I could have had a chance to raise a question for my colleague from the Conservative Party. I stood up, but two Liberals in a row were recognized instead of another party.

I wish I could have raised a question for my colleague from the Conservative Party on his saying that Bill C-48 is so vague. It is on one page, he said, and he asked what the government will do with that money, saying that it is pretty vague.

I remember, though, when the budget came down in the House of Commons from the Minister of Finance. The Minister of Finance had not even had the time to finish it when the leader of the Conservative Party ran outside and said he would vote for it. He did not even know what was in the budget at that time. The only thing he knew was that the taxes would go down from 21% to 19% for the big corporations. He ran outside saying he could not vote against the budget because it was a good budget.

The Leader of the Opposition never raised a question about what big business would do with that, what presidents of companies who are getting paid $10 million per year would do with that. He did not raise any questions about that. He was not worried about big corporations.

Let us look at the accord with Newfoundland and Labrador, which we agree with. There was $2 billion for the accord with Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia, negotiated very fast not too long ago. Tonight the Conservative Party members will probably vote for the budget bill, Bill C-43, because they want that $2 billion going to Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia without knowing what is going to happen with it.

It seems to me that the problem, as always, is that when the NDP wants to have a good budget to bring to the ordinary people, it is wrong. That is what the Conservative Party stands for.

As I said, it is a great pleasure for me to be able to speak to Bill C-43 and the improvements to it contained in Bill C-48. The Liberal colleague from Prince Edward Island said that Bill C-43 was a good budget. The only thing he neglected to say is that, thanks to the NDP amendments to it proposed in Bill C-48, after two days of negotiations with the NDP leader, Canadians' interests are really being served. For example, and I cannot say this often enough, $1.6 billion will go to affordable housing construction, of which there was not a word in Bill C-43. This investment will put roofs over the heads of the homeless.

That is what causes a problem for the Conservatives. They say they can support C-43 but not C-48. They are not concerned for ordinary Canadians. It is as if they wanted people to stay out on the street, since there is no place and no money for them.

As for post-secondary education and worker training, there will be $1.5 billion to reduce the cost of post-secondary education and thus to help students and their families. The Conservatives are incapable of voting in favour of such a measure, because they want Canadian students to be in debt. Is that the message they want to send? The Conservatives will apparently vote in favour of Bill C-43 but against Bill C-48, which includes $1.5 billion to reduce the debt load of young Canadians. The Conservatives cannot vote in favour of that. They accuse the NDP of being too fond of spending because it wants to lighten the debt load of Canadian young people. Nothing could be more ridiculous. One hopes that Canadians will see through this.

Then there is $900 million for the environment. How can anybody argue that they do not want a clean planet for future generations? This planet does not belong to us. It belongs to everyone now and in the future. We have responsibilities toward the entire planet and we all need to do our part. How can the Conservatives vote against Bill C-48 and its $900 million allocated to the environment, which is so dear to us and so essential to our health?

This evening, how can the Conservatives vote against Bill C-48, after voting on Bill C-43, which will allocate 1¢ more per litre of gas? In the budget, the Liberal government agreed that a tax of 5¢ per litre of gas will go to the towns and municipalities in our country for infrastructure. How can the Conservatives vote against allocating 1¢ more to the municipalities of Calgary and Edmonton, in Alberta? This evening, how can the Conservatives rise in the House and vote in favour of Bill C-43, indicating that the Liberals have a good budget, but then vote against Bill C-48? When it is time to help our municipalities, students in debt and poor people in the streets, the Conservatives are absent.

Unfortunately, I do not approve of one part of the budget. Unfortunately, the government did not give more for employment insurance. The parliamentary committee issued a recommendation on February 15, asking the government to consider the best 12 weeks worked and to eliminate the divisor of 14. This would have helped all Canadians in regions where employment is seasonal. It would have helped people in Newfoundland and Labrador, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, the Gaspé and the North Shore, in Quebec. Unfortunately, the government decided not to consider the best 12 weeks, and this is too bad. I am asking the government once again to reconsider.

Today, people entitled to EI benefits after working for 12 weeks receive only 55% of their salary.

These women and men work in industries that pay very little, almost minimum wage: $8 per hour. If you take 55% of that, it is less than welfare. The government has set the divisor at 14, assuming that workers would abuse the system by quitting their jobs. That is wrong. That is a totally false assumption, because those who quit their jobs are not eligible for employment insurance. That is why I find it terribly unfortunate that there is nothing for them in Bill C-43. When we look at the government's budget, we can see that it contains no details about employment insurance. Any details were provided only in the press release issued by the minister the same day as this budget bill was introduced.

Today, the government still has the authority to make it the 12 best weeks. The federal government has had a new Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development for two days now. I would like to ask the new minister to show sensitivity to the plight of these workers. There are women working in fish plants in the Acadian peninsula, the Gaspé and Quebec's North Shore. These women and men working in Newfoundland and Labrador, Prince Edward Island or Nova Scotia cannot pick and chose their jobs. This is not Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary or Edmonton. These people need an income to feed their kids, buy clothes for them and send them to school.

The best thing we could do to promote economic development is whatever can be done to ensure that people are educated and healthy. How can one hope to achieve that while driving people to poverty? How? There is no way anyone can succeed that way.

Many of the studies that were conducted and presented to the House of Commons were adopted by the government. But when it comes to ordinary people, it is a very different story. And Bill C-48 is a case in point.

The Conservatives voted against changes to EI knowing that they involved improving conditions for ordinary people, the workers. This is not acceptable, but their political party was entitled to do so. People will decide democratically whether they will vote for them or not. However, those watching now must remember that that is what the Conservatives will be doing this evening.

The Liberal government, however, has a responsibility to respond to the request of the Subcommittee on the Employment Insurance Funds, which proposed the 12 best weeks and 360 hours to qualify for EI. The government has not made the necessary changes to help these people, but there is still time for it to do so.

There is a $46 billion surplus in the employment insurance fund. The Conservatives are concerned because $250 million is missing in the sponsorship fund and $100 million could have been invested elsewhere. I do not support that. However, $46 billion, which belonged to workers, was withdrawn from the employment insurance fund. I wonder which scandal is bigger.

I hope that this evening all the political parties will use common sense and vote for bills C-48 and C-43 so that ordinary folks have a chance for a better life.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I listened intently to the member's speech. I want to again thank those people in the translation booth since I happen to be one of those unfortunate unilingual Canadians who only speaks English. Without their help I would not have understood a word that he said, but now I feel that I understood too much of what he said.

I want to point out to him that this deal that the NDP struck with the Liberals is actually curious to the extreme. It used to be that budgets, when presented in the House, were basically left unchanged. It was against the rules to leak anything. The government leaks budget speeches and proposals almost willy-nilly these days. It is just a barrage of leaks.

The finance minister presented the budget and lo and behold, we are now going to be voting on a budget bill which was not in the budget, almost $5 billion worth of expenditures not in the budget. This NDP member is saying that this is really good. I think it is a violation of a very important principle. Canadians should be able to trust what the budget speech says when it is delivered. This is so dramatically different from what was delivered and on that count alone one should be defeating it.

Then on the other hand, I am also amazed that the NDP would be willing to strike a deal with the Liberal government when even to one of its own members, the Liberals have proven themselves not trustworthy. When the deal was struck with the member from Winnipeg to drop his bill on access to information on the promise that there would be a bill from the government, the Minister of Justice showed up at our committee and presented a discussion paper. There was no bill. We are just going to talk about it some more.

The member from Winnipeg was really upset about that and rightly so. Why can these NDP members not learn their lessons? We cannot trust these guys. Why cut a deal with them?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, when my colleague talks about a budget that should not be changed, he should remember we are in a minority government right now and that is when change occurs. That is when there is an opportunity for other parties to have an input. That is what happened during the time of Tommy Douglas. During a budget debate he said that if the government wanted the budget to go through, that it would have to give Canadians public health care across the country.

That is the practice when there is a minority government. Instead of just fighting in the House of Commons, we can do some work instead. I am proud that this is what the NDP has done. In two days we have done some work for Canadians. Ordinary people who vote can say that finally there is a change. The people who live on the street in Toronto in front of city hall and sleep on cardboard say that maybe they will finally have a home.

It is not a shame to change one's mind in a minority government. It has been done in the past. Canadians will say that the best government they can get is a minority government because other people can have an input. Other countries like France are used to working with a minority government. It is not the first time that France has a minority government and good stuff happens to ordinary people.

However, the Conservatives only want to look at big corporations. They want to cut taxes. They do not care if we are going to have money for highways. They do not care if we are going to have money for schools. They do not care if we have money for health care. No, they are going to privatize. If people are sick and have money, they will be served in a hospital, but if they are poor, they can stay on the sidewalk in Toronto and die there. The Conservatives do not mind that.

I say that is wrong. This is a good budget, especially with the additions put in Bill C-48. In the past we know that the opposition parties always vote against the budget. That is the practice. However, when the budget came into the House of Commons, the leader of the Conservatives said that this is a good budget. He said that his party would not bring down the government because this is a good budget. He broke the practice of the House. That is what has been done.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Rivière-Du-Loup—Montmagny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to address the budget implementation act today. We had an election less than one year ago. At the time, Quebeckers gave us the message that, when the federal government would make budget decisions, it would have to be clear and specific on certain issues. We have a duty to ensure that if these issues are not dealt with in the budget, we are going to be the voice of Quebeckers and vote against the budget.

The first major issue in this respect is the fiscal imbalance. There is a consensus in Quebec that includes people from all provincial political parties, and the Bloc Québécois. Everyone agrees that, considering its responsibilities, the federal government has way too much revenue. As for the provinces, and particularly Quebec, they have responsibilities in health and education, but they cannot go and get the revenue, because the federal government is taking up too much tax room in proportion to its responsibilities.

In Quebec City this morning, the leader of the Action démocratique party in Quebec, Mario Dumont—who is not a sovereignist—asked the premier, Mr. Charest, to invite federal Liberal members to vote against the budget. This is very significant. Indeed, as regards the fiscal imbalance, the budget does not include any of the measures that we expected. The government has had a year to put forward some initiatives to solve the fiscal imbalance, but it has not done it. The problem continues to exist.

We cannot support the budget that was amended to enlist the support of the NDP, precisely because of this Canadian, centralizing approach, whereby the federal government is increasingly involved in all sorts of areas that do not come under its responsibility. If the government had really wanted to respect Quebec and the provinces, it would have ensured that this money be transferred to Quebec, which could then have spent it in the way it felt was most appropriate.

However, it is not in the budget and this is one of the reasons why Quebeckers want us to vote against this budget. We will be their voices, their spokespersons when the time comes this evening to vote on these two bills.

The Bloc Québécois has maintained some cohesion and coherence from the beginning on these issues. We want to make sure when we go back to our constituents that we have not become turncoats and that we have clearly defended what they want. That is what we are promoting.

This is true for fiscal imbalance and for employment insurance. I was the critic for this portfolio for many years. We started off with the then Prime Minister of Canada, Jean Chrétien, calling the unemployed beer drinkers.

Slowly, day after day, month after month, we refuted this falsehood and we showed how the federal government used more than $46 billion for purposes other than the EI system. Yet, people are informed on their paycheques that they are paying for an EI system, they are paying a contribution that is supposed to be used for this system. They are not supposed to be financing the government's entire operations.

This is unfair and instills a sense of injustice in the unemployed and low-income earners. These people fought the deficit more than anyone and never saw a return on their investment. Election after election, in 1997, 2000, and 2004, the Liberals promised an overhaul, but, every time, once the election was over, they went back to business as usual. They keep things the way they are and take in money just to spend it however they please. We find that unacceptable.

That is another reason why we cannot support the NDP amendments, which, at the end of the day, would mean passing the budget without overhauling the EI system. In terms of distribution of wealth, if there is one thing this Parliament should have done, it is to ensure that there is a true EI fund, a fund where those contributing to it, the employers and employees, have control over how it is spent. They are the ones who should determine the amount of benefits, the number of weeks of benefits they are entitled to and how many insurable hours they need to qualify for EI. Currently there is no indication of any of this in the budget. Just like before, the government continues to amass surpluses, but does not pay out adequate benefits. There are some terrible examples of this.

Canada does not have a program to help older workers. One did exist until 1995.

Globalization results nowadays in many companies being affected in different sectors. There are plant closings. We saw them in the textile sector. My hon. friend mentioned the furniture sector. The forestry sector is currently deeply affected. Often these workers are 52, 53, 55 years old. They lose their jobs and no longer have a chance of getting to the Quebec pension plan, the Canada pension plan or their old age pension.

In our society, which is rich and has the means, we should have instituted programs of this kind. The reason why there are not any is the federal government spent all the money from the surpluses on paying down the debt and other expenditures for all kinds of extravagances. So there is nothing left for essential needs, like this one.

How could we vote for a budget that has not changed the employment insurance system, while all last election campaign, the federal Liberals could be seen everywhere saying that, this time, they would change things and we would have a real system? Today, there is nothing of that in the budget. I do not think that we could face ourselves in the mirror if we supported this budget without having this commitment.

In the election campaign and during meetings with our fellow citizens, we will be able to say that we held our heads high and advanced the views that they wanted advanced.

There is another example, namely the question of the environment and the Kyoto protocol. Thanks to its hydroelectricity, Quebec has a major advantage when it comes to ensuring that there is less pollution. Great efforts were made over the last ten years. Now, all these efforts should be taken into consideration and Quebec should have a chance to reap the reward. But no—in the budget, they act as if all these efforts were just part of the Canadian picture and so big polluters are given a chance to continue polluting, with no recognition on the other side of the House for Quebec's contribution.

When I talk about this with young people, back in Quebec, who are very concerned about the environment, this fact is reason enough to have a sovereign Quebec. It is not true that Quebec must continue to pay. Quebec pays for the polluters, and then it is supposed to continue propping things up so that this can continue. That cannot be the reality. We cannot make progress with this kind of situation.

Here is another example. Currently, millions of dollars are scattered here and there. Cattle producers in Quebec have agreed to establish a producer-owned abattoir. That way, they could get reasonable profits and, above all, they could sell their beef at acceptable prices. They are waiting for an $11 million contribution from the federal government, and they are unable to get it. It is absolutely unacceptable today, given the size of the federal surplus, for this need not to be met when we all know the impact of the mad cow crisis. This is unacceptable here.

Softwood lumber is yet another example. For the past three years, we have been asking the federal government for a real action plan to help companies affected by the softwood lumber crisis. We are not talking about tens of thousands of dollars. These people have put billion of dollars into a reserve fund in response to quotas and duties imposed by the Americans. This has cut their productivity.

Now, these companies are dropping like flies. Why did the federal government not move forward with the action plan—including loan guarantees and other means—that we proposed? The POWA is another initiative for workers who have lost their jobs due to the softwood lumber crisis. The federal government could have shown some sensitivity. But no, it is out of the question. This is not in this budget.

I want to give another quick example. This year in my riding, the budget for the summer career placement program for students will be cut by $116,000. This makes no sense. Everyone says we need to stop our young people from leaving and, therefore, our communities from losing money. This is true across Canada. This makes no sense whatsoever, given the surplus. There was no reason that one red cent had to be cut from any community in Canada this year. This kind of decision is completely absurd. There are consequences, in the budget, for not having listened to people who asked for more money for students.

Seniors, who for years been denied retroactive payments of the guaranteed income supplement, still have not heard a thing about it.

There are, therefore, a great many reasons why this budget must be voted against. This afternoon, when the Bloc members stand up to be counted, I think they will be showing very clearly that here they represent Quebec and have represented it proudly. Their vote indicates that Quebec as a whole rejects this budget which is unacceptable to Quebeckers.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, during his discourse the member made a statement with regard to certain programs were not done because, “the government used all of the surplus to pay down debt”.

It concerns a little. Perhaps it bears worth explaining how the process works. The surplus or deficit from a particular fiscal year is determined after the Auditor General has completed her audit. That is some six months after the end of the year. Then the financials are reported and there is a reported surplus or deficit.

It is not possible to spend a surplus. The surplus is automatically under the accounting rules applied against the debt. We cannot say that we have some money left over from the last accounting year, so let us spend it on something. That is not an option. I wanted to point that out to the member.

He should well know about providing funding for important programs, for example the Canada pension plan which is separately funded. However, there also is the fact that the Government of Canada, in providing tax credits for contributions that are made to the Canada pension plan for employer and employee contributions, is effectively contributing to the funding of those.

I just raise it with the member that there is not an option with regard to the surplus and that the savings on interest by paying down debt in an orderly basis is important to help sustain the important programs that all Canadians want.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Rivière-Du-Loup—Montmagny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as far as employment insurance is concerned, it is very important for people to know that, year after year for five or six years, the federal government has arranged to minimize its potential surplus. It knew very well that there would be between $5 billion and $10 billion in that account alone.

At year end, it would not necessarily have been a bad thing for the money left that was really available to be applied to the debt. But it is unacceptable that $5 billion in surplus funds was knowingly accumulated annually, when they knew right from the start that this money would be available and that it was accumulated at the expense of the unemployed, of the workers and employers who contributed to the fund. This is one of the main reasons we are voting against this budget. In fact, as long as there is no independent employment insurance fund, we will not be able to consider the government to have acted properly in this connection.

When he was the finance minister, the current Prime Minister deliberately underestimated surplus forecasts to ensure that, at the end of the day, the largest amount possible could be applied to paying down the debt. But some people paid the price for that in the meantime. It is reported that, as successful as we are at producing wealth, we still have many children who are poor in Canada today. The fault lies with the current Liberal government. It is chiefly responsible for that.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague from the Bloc talked about moneys being transferred to the provinces. His concern was that these transfers should occur with fewer restrictions. We are facing the same problem in Manitoba and I think it is happening across the country with respect to the gas tax.

We were told that the new infrastructure program, which is taken out of the gas tax, could be used by cities for their priorities. What we are finding now is that the federal government has specifically restricted cities over 500,000 and will not allow them to use it with respect to roads and bridges.

For example, the city of Winnipeg needs roads and bridges fixed. It needs potholes fixed. The federal government has specifically said that Winnipeg cannot fix its potholes.

What does the member say about something like that?

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Rivière-Du-Loup—Montmagny, QC]

That is a very good question, Mr. Speaker. I think that the federal government has an unquenchable thirst for visibility. If it had done the math logically, it would have withdrawn from certain fields of taxation. Efforts would have been made to allow the provinces to have access to these fields, because they have responsibilities in education, health and road systems. In addition, because they are closer to the problems and the people, they would be able to find much less expensive solutions.

This thirst for visibility is costing us a bundle because it is inefficient. By interfering in jurisdictions that are not its own, the federal government is creating duplicate bureaucracies, and that always increases costs. Quebeckers have realized that, finally, the only solution now is for Quebec to get out of Canada and achieve sovereignty, to be able, among other things, to do away with these kinds of practices which cost a bundle to all of Canada.