Debates of May 3rd, 2005

Committees of the House

[Denis Paradis, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is very important, indeed.

First I want to thank my hon. colleague from the Bloc for his comments. He is absolutely right, the regions are important. Senior RCMP officers absolutely must understand the dynamic in the regions.

We run into the following type of question of interpretation. The Commissioner of the RCMP appeared before the committee and said that the deployment of police forces is his sole responsibility. It is his decision and no one else's. Not everyone agrees with him.

As elected officials in a region, we would not ask the commissioner to get involved in one particular case or another or to investigate a certain location. However, when it comes to the deployment of police forces, we, as elected officials, our committee, our House of Commons, have a say.

I want to come back to one of the points raised by my colleague, the issue of financial resources. The Commissioner of the RCMP assured us that it was not even a question of money, but a question of how things are done, according to his philosophy. He said he had enough money in his budget and that it was more a philosophical issue.

With his philosophy of assigning 15 police officers to the same case, in the same location, when in the past one officer handled 15 cases, I wonder where things are headed. We are heading toward an absence of police officers in the regions and it is the people living in the regions who will be penalized.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am rising to address this important issue for several reasons. First, I think we should congratulate and thank the hon. member for Brome—Missisquoi, who worked tirelessly on this issue. Of course, this is not a partisan issue. I was pleased to see the Bloc Québécois use an opposition day to debate it.

Policing and civil protection are not partisan issues. The role of this Parliament is to ask real questions from time to time and not to engage in petty politics or procedural wrangling, as the Conservative member likes to do.

I also want to speak as a former Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. Following the events of September 11, I wanted to implement an approach that would strike a balance between openness and vigilance. Of course, Canada is a very open country. It is a land that welcomes immigrants. However, we must also have the tools to protect our fellow citizens. This protection is provided through constant presence and work, particularly at ports of entry.

I must admit that when I look at the list of affected municipalities, namely Baie-Comeau, Coaticook, Granby, Îles-de-la-Madeleine, Joliette, Lac-Mégantic, Rivière-du-Loup, Roberval and Saint-Hyacinthe, I really wonder.

I am the member for Bourassa. I have been living in Montréal-Nord for 33 years, but I am also a native of the region of Joliette. Joliette had an RCMP detachment from 1949 on, and it did an exceptional job, particularly in the fight against organized crime and biker gangs. It definitely played a critical role in the protection of our fellow citizens.

I have a great deal of respect for the RCMP. In my role as special advisor for Haiti, I was able to see that the RCMP did a tremendous job at the international level, as it does, in some respects, at the regional and provincial levels. However, I fundamentally disagree with the minister, who thinks that we should adhere strictly to what the commissioner wants, and who says that if this is what the commissioner wants, then it must be good.

Commissioner Zaccardelli is a person who has accomplished a great deal for the RCMP, and an extremely competent one as well. But, philosophically, I do not agree with him on this issue. I think that, when it comes to crime solving, visibility and presence are essential. One needs only look at how huge Canada is. Naturally, as Mayor Guy Racine said, as we reduce our presence, organized crime will look for the weak link. In that sense, it is important and essential to be able to play our part in the field.

Many organizations and individuals are not pleased with this decision. We are talking about not only members of Parliament, and there are many of both sides of this House, but also, as my hon. colleague from Brome—Missisquoi indicated earlier, former colleagues of ours, like Diane Jacques, David Price and Gérard Binet, who have worked relentlessly on this issue. We are also talking about the mayors of the nine cities concerned, the prefects of the RCMs—because the RCMs of Brome—Missisquoi and Maskoutains are also affected—the Association des policiers provinciaux, the Fédération des policiers et policières municipaux du Québec, the Fraternité des policiers de la Montérégie as well as the Association de la Gendarmerie Royale du Canada au Québec. I think that we have to ask ourselves questions. It is not just a labour-management conflict. We are talking about people, the men and women who have worked in the field and who have to face what is going on on a daily basis. In our quest to protect our fellow citizens, it is essential that we consider this.

I agree with my hon. colleague from Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup. This House does have a duty to take a stand and it has to send a message to our government. We may not always agree philosophically but everyone in this place, including the government, of which I was part at one time, is working for the well-being of our fellow citizens.

There are important moments in politics when Parliament, this seat of democracy, must take a stand.

We must stand firm to launch this debate on the entire concept of vigilance.

After the events of September 11, billions and billions of dollars were invested in protecting entry points, for example. A great deal of effort was put into legislative reorganization in order to ensure they were well protected. The strength and ability of this country and this government lie in always striking a balance.

There must be justice, and justice must be seen to be done. I sincerely believe that we need to reconsider this aspect. There are, of course, several different schools of thought on this. Some would like to see all our resources concentrated in Drummondville, working on certain other aspects, but ready to be present in case of need. The reality is quite different, however. Suppose someone grows marijuana in this or that region, out on some rural route in St. Something or Other, or some very isolated spot. Simply because it takes so long to get to the spot, it becomes impossible to collect evidence.

In my opinion, the role of the RCMP needs to be redefined. I would go still further and say that it is time the international aspect is also addressed. A great deal of resources have been invested in protection, billions of dollars. The RCMP needs to play a specific role internationally, but not at the expense of certain regions. The RCMP does its job in the field; we have no problem with that. Not only are they competent and upstanding, but they are also characterized by a professional conscience that does them credit.

Second, resources need to be redefined, and the tools created for such things as an international branch of the RCMP.

If one of these restructuring operations is not carried out at the expense of the other, we will never again be able to use the same excuse, or adopt the same philosophy, of the necessity to reorganize for improved performance, particularly where computer crime is concerned. There is one reality that remains, however: if there is one weak link in the chain, the first thing organized crime will do is to infiltrate it and take advantage of it.

I am aware of the extremely hard work put into this by my colleague from Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot. He has, moreover, been subject to threats as a result. This is indeed an important element.

Today what we do not need is any flag waving, any procedural games, any party politics. We all need to join together in order to tell our government that it needs to reconsider this. That is why I move:

That this question be now put.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The motion is that this question be now put. Resuming debate.

The hon. member for Shefford.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Speaker, both sides of the House agree that these RCMP detachments should remain open. The minister is the only one who needs convincing. Until she is convinced, nothing more can be done. The commissioner is not the one making the decision, it is the minister. According to various sections of the legislation, she is the only person with that authority.

We can talk about it all day, but if the minister cannot be convinced, then nothing will change. If anyone should lobby someone, it is the Liberals who need to lobby the minister.

I support my colleague's proposal. I attended the same four meetings of the Standing Committee on Justice, Human Rights, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness that he did.

I want to ask him the following question: does the minister agree with the committee?

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I note the member's enthusiasm but we have been working on this file for quite some time. It is not new to us. That is why I moved we vote on this immediately. We did, and I assure the House that various decisions were not made simply because the Liberals on this side of the House worked toward that end.

I agree with the member for Shefford. Parliament needs to send a message. I believe in the minister's sincerity, integrity and good faith. I may disagree—and this is inherent to politics—with some aspects of her positions. The fact that Parliament may make such a decision will send a clear message.

I agree with him that this need not take all day. That is why I moved the previous question, so that we could vote on it and send this message as unanimously as possible.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased with the responses given by the hon. Liberal members, especially the last one. However, I would like more details from the hon. member. In recent months, Parliament has made decisions, which the government has not implemented, because it is in a minority position. The gap between what Liberal members say and what the government decides is often very wide.

Given that the hon. member said work was being done by the Liberals, and with respect to the government's practice, may we expect a change and may we expect the government to finally implement Parliament's decisions?

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague is still new to this Parliament and is today slipping into a somewhat facile view of matters. He is trying to give the question a partisan spin.

I would say, quite simply, that we have work to do as members. We do not want to put a spin on things, as such. My colleague from Brome—Missisquoi began the debate. I congratulated the Bloc on having an opposition day on this issue. My colleagues from Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup and Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot worked on it. Today is not the day to get into petty politicking.

We must remain on course. Today, we presented a motion in this regard, because I think we have to work together and send this message. The fact that so many organizations, mayors and associations, even from within the RCMP, agree, tells me that we should all pitch in and not get into petty politicking.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to speak about this subject, which has been very important, I think, for a number of years. As my colleague from Bourassa said, the debate did not begin last year but nearly eight years ago. It was eight years ago that the RCMP's first announcements about rationalization were made. That is why I have been opposed to such closings ever since.

There has been quite a story in my region in connection with my opposition to the closing. Farmers and others have written letters to me and have come to see me and say that they had been warning the government for eight years about the RCMP's intentions. They told me that the RCMP detachments must not be closed because that would make way for organized crime, which would continue to squat on their farmlands and produce illicit cannabis.

This was news eight years ago because no one was talking about the problem. Even I, as the chief economist of the UPA for seven or eight years, had never heard about organized crime squatting on farmland and intimidating farm families.

I might mention in passing that I am going to share my time with the member for Mégantic—L'Érable.

So what came out of the debate about the RCMP's intentions was real news eight years ago. That was when the debate and the discovery of the problem really started. The arguments then were the same as now. When you close a storefront or an RCMP detachment in a problem region, as Saint-Hyacinthe was a few years ago, you deprive yourself of an instrument for fighting organized crime.

Now that instrument has been eliminated and an opportunity has therefore been left for organized crime, because the Saint-Hyacinthe office was quietly closed down. Last January 1, as a matter of fact, when everyone was celebrating the New Year, the RCMP deemed itself above Parliament, above the members, and above the consensus of all the political parties and quietly closed the Saint-Hyacinthe RCMP detachment. This is serious. People were saying at the same time that detachments should not be closed because there were problems with drug trafficking.

Four years ago, to address once again the rumour that the detachment would close, the people of Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot decided to set up an Infocrime citizens committee. It promoted a simple hotline number, 1-800-711-1800 for people to use to report crimes, threats made by organized crime, and the presence of marijuana plants in the fields and woods. The citizens decided to take charge and boost their preventive activities—especially among children—not only in terms of consumption, but also in terms of the henchmen used by criminal groups for planting and harvesting marijuana, especially in September and October.

This is a recent phenomenon and it is quite serious. In September, when criminals harvest cannabis in fields and woods, there is a very high rate of absenteeism in the region's schools. Why? Police have been monitoring this for a while now. Apparently, children are hired by henchmen of the South chapter, a Hells Angels associate, to harvest cannabis in the fields. Children aged 13 or 14 are being offered exorbitant wages to work for these bastards, to associate with organized crime, and, at such an early age, to establish ties with henchmen of the Hells Angels or any other criminal group. This is serious. Imagine what that feels like, at a time when detachments are being closed.

Not so long ago I heard Commissioner Bourduas say that it was not the role of the RCMP to hunt down luxury gardeners. I do not know if he still feels the same way after the unfortunate events in Alberta where three police officers were killed by a drug trafficker. I do not know if he is still of the same opinion, but I am starting to have a very bad opinion of him, especially for closing the RCMP detachment on January 1, despite the fact that all parties on the Standing Committee on Justice, Human Rights, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness—remember, committees are an extension of the House of Commons—had agreed that the RCMP offices would not close their doors.

The RCMP feels it is above Parliament. It is making exactly the same mistake as the CIA did. I do not know if you followed the investigations after September 11, 2001, but the CIA was rightly faulted for having concentrated its operations in major capitals and not keeping its ear to the ground out in the field, which might have prevented these tragic events.

The RCMP is doing the same. It might be asked at some point what its role is. It no longer deals with drug dealers, borders, luxury gardeners as Commissioner Borduas called them, although these are the worst criminals and connected with well organized rings. What does it deal with? That is what needs to be asked.

I feel this is a bad decision. The four parties cannot agree on reopening the RCMP detachments without providing them with sufficient manpower to carry out investigations. They are talking about a critical mass of eight investigators. We cannot all be wrong.

Commissioners Borduas and Zaccardelli cannot know the truth. There is a kind of malaise somewhere if the Canada-wide police force is making decisions that run counter to the decisions made by Parliament. There is always a limit. The Minister of Public Safety and Civil Preparedness also believes she is above Parliament. She says all of us here are wrong, that we have no reason to be concerned, when a tool against organized crime has just been taken away from rural areas where the nearest neighbour may be 2 or 3 kms away. According to her, all of us are wrong.

What kind of Parliament are we sitting in? What is the government thinking, with such a disaster for our regions about to happen. There was rationalization carried out in Ontario. Now go ask the people in rural areas, particularly in northern Ontario, if they are pleased with that. RCMP operations were centralized in major centres and they are no longer able to respond to calls in outlying regions.

A tremendous effort has been made in my riding, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot. People took things in hand, as citizens. On the Infocrime committee, there are farmers, municipal representatives and young people working with those who have narcotics problems, for example. Police representatives also volunteer to help the community carry on its own fight against organized crime.

When one has the kind of success that has been seen over the last four years with Infocrime, using all the tools such as Infocrime, the Sûreté du Québec and the RCMP to fight drug traffickers, and one gets a decision like this, it is very frustrating.

A consensus among the political parties on a question as basic as this must necessarily have an effect. We must ensure that the RCMP opens its detachments—or keeps them open in the case of those that have not been closed yet—and gives them enough resources to help the Sûreté du Québec, in particular, fight organized crime.

Having been involved in the drug-trafficking issue for eight years and having experienced intimidation, along with my family, I think that one thing must be kept in mind. If we send a signal to organized crime that we are going to ease up, it will return. We must remain eternally vigilant.

In my riding, we have succeeded in improving things quite a bit in the last two years, so much that there were hardly any more cannabis patches to be seen by someone flying over the region. Seven years ago, it was unbelievable. There was not a field that had not been squatted on, with 1,000 or 2,000 plants per field. There was not a single farm family that had not been intimidated and seriously threatened by organized crime for daring to contact the police.

Things have improved. But production has moved on—to the Eastern Townships in particular—my colleague from Brome—Missisquoi mentioned that—and also to the Centre-du-Québec region. The citizens have to take things in hand too. They cannot be deprived of tools like the decentralized RCMP detachments with investigators. These detachments make the connection between the local networks and the national or international networks. The surveillance they do complements their work with the Sûreté du Québec and is a major contribution.

I demand that the RCMP reopen the detachments that it has already closed and give them enough resources. I also demand that the minister assume her responsibilities and respond favourably to a consensus of Parliament.

[Marc Boulianne, Bloc, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am extremely pleased to take part in this debate today. First, I want to congratulate my colleague from Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot for his excellent summary of this problem.

Closing these RCMP detachments, including the one in Lac-Mégantic, is unacceptable. The latter is a strategic border station that is currently open. We need only read the newspapers from about two weeks ago to hear of the arrests in the riding of Mégantic—L'Érable. There was one raid, but how many people have managed to cross since the closure of this detachment was announced?

If there is an emergency in Lac-Mégantic, police from Sherbrooke or Saint-Georges de Beauce are called to the scene. This important presence is gone. Earlier, someone mentioned deterrents, for example, or interventions. This is the government's responsibility. Clearly, the RCMP bears some of the responsibility, but the government has led the way in abandoning the regions. This is evident at every turn. The regions are affected by these problems, be it in terms of economic impact or job creation. At present, the Bloc Québécois is the only party truly defending the regions, including in this instance. We are getting support from other MPs who have realized how serious this situation is.

We are told this is the result of a reorganization. We are told that reorganizing, as is being done to some extent in all areas, is essential. I agree with my colleague from Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot: a serious mistake was made in the aftermath of September 11. In fact, a steady increase in the smuggling of drugs and firearms was seen at that time.

In the name of this reorganization, we continue to forget this event, particularly at a time when, for example, the RCMP needs to conduct preventive patrols—we talked about prevention earlier—along the border and respond to emergencies involving customs or immigration officers. As I said earlier, when we deploy our resources hundreds of kilometres from the border, 100 km in the case of Lac-Mégantic, it becomes clear that these officers will not be able to do their jobs properly.

The consequences are obvious: the RCMP will lose not only its ability to respond rapidly when needed, but also its familiarity with the terrain, which is essential to fighting crime. Surveillance of this territory and the border area means being able to respond. Problems with drugs and organized crime will not be resolved by calling Sherbrooke or Saint-Georges de Beauce. This would make the criminals' job much easier.

Those happiest at the closure of the Lac-Mégantic detachment, housed in its brand new building, were the members of organized crime. Now they could freely ply their smuggling trade without interference from the RCMP.

Even if the police from Sherbrooke or Saint-Georges are asked to intervene, they have other concerns. That is what they told us. They are concerned with international crime. They cannot just drop things and come. So it is heyday time.

Under this approach, the RCMP will lose its regional presence, so vital in the fight against organized crime and in ensuring public safety. People can sleep in peace and attend to their business when they feel the protection of a police presence. Its dissuasive effect can be felt. We therefore think it is a mistake to take this approach.

The second mistake is the lack of transition. From one day to the next, we learn in the papers that detachments are being closed, that the key is being turned in the lock, just like that. What is the transition period? The criminals have no transition period and operate daily. So something vital is lost.

There were protests in our riding. For example, I received a letter from the mayor of Lac-Mégantic. I will read from it. She was offended to learn of the cavalier closing of the RCMP detachment in the Tribune the day before. Imagine. The town council learned from the Tribune that its RCMP detachment had closed.

Once again, the consultation process fell by the wayside. It is all very well to say it had become obligatory. I quote the mayor again, because hers is an important role in the municipality. She is its democratic spokesperson. She said:

I am deeply distressed at the way we were treated, at the way our requests were treated. We made many presentations. There were coalitions of MPs. We were practically guaranteed this detachment's future before the election. And here they take our services away. It is appalling.

As an MP, and as part of the coalition, I support the following arguments, which she added and which warrant mention:

We argued for the protection of the nearby U.S. border and of our residents.

The business handled by the RCMP includes the war on terrorism. That is an important activity and it has to be conducted in the field. As far as drugs are concerned, over the past year, while some arrests were made, trafficking continues. Other areas of responsibility include organized crime, customs, immigration, and so on. Our region is poorly considered and poorly protected. It is imperative that this detachment, as well as the others that were closed, be reopened to ensure the protection of society and its citizens.

I was a member of the coalition of MPs. In October, I wrote the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness a letter outlining these arguments. I told her this was a serious mistake, that we had responsibilities to uphold, and that, as a minister, she was responsible for ensuring the safety and protection of the people of Lac-Mégantic as well as that of people elsewhere. I also told her in my letter that the RCMP presence not only acted as a disincentive but also played a vital role in combating crime. Indeed, we can see organized crime taking root locally.

I have not received any specific answer. The minister's catch-all answer, however, was to maintain that this was how her organization worked and that restructuring would be taking place with respect to safety.

There is therefore a serious problem in this respect, in Lac-Mégantic as elsewhere. I too support the motion, but results have to be achieved. Earlier, my colleague asked what role the minister and the Prime Minister play. Mayors got involved, motions were passed, but we are no further ahead, the reason being that other interests are at stake. The minister, like the Prime Minister, is not making a decision on the matter.

I said earlier and I repeat: what is at stake is the protection of the regions and of citizens. We get the impression that the RCMP is complicit in these political decisions. We must not sit back; we must fight. A victory is absolutely necessary in terms of the reopening of the RCMP detachments that were closed across the regions of Quebec, including the one in Lac-Mégantic.

[Denis Paradis, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first, I want to commend the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot. Earlier he mentioned that his region was making real progress. Although progress is being made, RCMP presence is still needed to maintain the positive results. It is important to see police officers and for them to be located in the area.

I also want to commend the former member for Mégantic—L'Érable, Mr. Binet, as well as the new member, who is picking up where Mr. Binet left off. The hon. member for Mégantic—L'Érable mentioned a few points. In the mayors' report, the proximity of the Canada-U.S. border was mentioned—31 km—and the redeployment of RCMP officers to Sherbrooke—130 km from Lac-Mégantic—and to Saint-Georges de Beauce—110 km from Lac-Mégantic. Police officers will no longer be able to do a regular preventive patrol along the border.

The Canada-U.S. border extends 171 km along Maine and New Hampshire. We are talking about quick intervention. I think the hon. member for Mégantic—L'Érable is right to raise the issue of distance. At any given time, it will be practically impossible for RCMP officers to respond to anything they would normally be able to respond to from a local detachment.

I would like to take this opportunity to join my colleague in congratulating the mayor of Lac-Mégantic. I have met her on several occasions. She is extremely involved in this issue and works very actively with all the mayors from the other towns affected by these detachment closures.

In this debate in committee, we also heard from customs officers. They told us that working in a customs office without this support made the situation pretty much impossible. Customs officers made a suggestion to the committee. If the RCMP is not so present locally, then perhaps it would be appropriate to train mobile border patrol teams that would go from one border point to another to cover all the points between them.

I want to know whether the hon. member has any comments on the possible creation of mobile border patrol units like they have in the United States.

[Marc Boulianne, Bloc, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think that the first thing that needs doing is to reopen the RCMP detachments and see that they operate efficiently. If there is any reorganization, it can be along the lines the hon. member has set out. Care must be taken, however, to ensure there is efficiency and that a joint operation between Customs and the RCMP is possible.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Mr. Speaker, ostensibly this is about the fourth report of the Standing Committee on Justice, Human Rights, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. The report recommends to the government that the RCMP keep open nine detachments in the province of Quebec. These closings were an issue in hearings before that committee. The report urges the government, presumably, to provide the resources to the RCMP to allow those detachments to remain open.

It is interesting. If we check it out, the sixth report is a reminder to the government that it has done nothing about the fourth report. Members can draw their own conclusions about how serious the government is. It is curious that a government member has brought forward, in the matter of two separate reports, this concurrence motion.

Unless anyone is confused as to why this is taking place, the reason is very simple. The member for Brome—Missisquoi said that he wanted a democratic debate. He only recently has come to this conversion that this is an important item. I can tell members what is really going on here. The Liberals are trying to stall the concurrence motion of the member for Prince George—Peace River, which is a non-confidence motion in the government. According to the rules, we can only have one concurrence motion a day. By moving these concurrence motions each day and by talking more about these things, the longer it will be before they get to the motion of non-confidence in the government. Despite efforts by the government to forestall this and its new partner in marriage, the NDP, the day will come when this chamber will get to decide on these things. It is all about that.

With respect to the report, I am pleased to talk a bit about the whole question of government resources, specifically as it relates to the RCMP. It is a question of money, resources and commitment by the government and its partner in marriage as to what and how government money should be spent.

I believe it should be spent on things like the RCMP. This is a worthwhile expenditure. I want to see not less effort directed by Parliament but more effort directed toward the RCMP and other security agencies in the country. I would be very upset if there were any plan by the government to close the RCMP detachment in my riding, the region of Niagara. I have said for some time and I have urged the Deputy Prime Minister to spend more time and effort in the area of security, not less. There should be quite a bit more. I would be among those who are concerned with this.

I can understand when hon. members say that it is going in the opposite direction. That is not where the world is going. The world has become a much more dangerous place and we need security more than we needed 10 years ago. It seems to me this is a step in the wrong direction.

I have made the suggestion to the Deputy Prime Minister and I urge her to have a look at the whole question of security. In my case and across the country, it is a question of our borders. We are not doing enough. If we sit down with employees at the borders or if we sit down with police forces across the country, they will tell us the same thing. They would like to see a higher level of commitment at the national level. However, that is not happening and this report draws attention to that.

What makes me feel very bad about this is we still do not see any remedy to this coming from the government or its partner in marriage, the NDP. Indeed, a member of the press asked me this morning about the NDP budget and I said that I had not seen it. In fact, we have had very few details of the whole marriage between the NDP and the Liberals. I suppose we can leave it to our imagination as to what took place between the two of them.

One of my colleagues said that the marriage would have been conducted according to Bill C-38. I guess that goes without saying. I was not there. I have not heard the reports. I suppose Bob Rae was there to give away the bride to make it complete. I have no doubt that there would have been lots of toasts, besides the obligatory toasts to Socialist International. I suppose every toast was about more spending. All the toasts would have been about more spending.

However, in all that spending was there any money or any talk of more money for security or the RCMP? I would bet there was not. My bet is that in all those toasts there would not be any money.

I have no doubt that all the toasts would have been using foreign wine. I know those two parties do not care about the Canadian wine industry. In all the billions of dollars that the government has spent I have not seen one mention that it will go ahead and remove the excise tax for the Canadian wine industry. That would not be a huge amount in terms of the money that gets blown. There would be no mention of that.

I imagine that at the marriage of the two parties all foreign wine would have been used. Obviously they do not care about Canadian wine, as they do not care about a lot of issues. The question of security is just another example.

This is disappointing to me. It seems to me that when the government and its partners do not concentrate on security for this country or worry about where the money is being spent, then if the money is being blown, wasted or disappears into the black hole of corruption, there is no money for the important things in this country such as security.

I ask the two partners in this alliance to wake up to some of these things and re-evaluate where they are going. They must call to account the kind of corruption that takes place and recognize that billions of dollars were wasted or blown by this government.

The government wasted $2 billion on the firearms registry alone. When the government and the NDP got together, did anyone say that the gun registry would be a great way to save money? Did they recognize that they had lost money? Imagine what $2 billion could have done for the RCMP detachments across this country. They could have surely used that money. That $2 billion would be a tremendous help in my riding of Niagara Falls for security issues. That money is never spent on security.

Mr. Ouellet had $2 million worth of entertainment expenses with no receipts. What is $2 million? That could have helped security issues. That would be a better expenditure of the $2 million.

Day after day in the House of Commons, do we see these issues raised? Certainly not by the NDP. Members can check Hansard and they would see that day after day in question period the NDP was not raising issues such as spending money on national security. Did the NDP raise questions about corruption? No. The NDP talked about the United States and it talked about George Bush. That is right, it was not the province of Ontario. The NDP was not talking about problems with cities. It was not talking about issues that I think concern a lot of Canadians as to where and how their money was being spent. The NDP was not talking about corruption. It was talking about the United States.

For a long time I said that I could not figure out where the NDP members were coming from. Even among their own priorities, even if it is not national security, within their own priorities, would they not be better off taking the government to account for this corruption, for the things that they would want to spend money on, even if it is not those recommended in the fourth report?

Then I finally figured it out. The reason why the NDP members were not as upset as those of us in the Conservative Party and Canadians were about that kind of corruption is because if they attack that they were indirectly attacking big government. That is the whole thing. The problem with the Liberal Party is that, as a government, it is involved with everything and every aspect of our lives. It is fixing it, pulling it, subsidizing it, providing kickbacks, commissions, payoffs, phoney contracts, and phony invoices.

That is what it was all about. However, that is just a byproduct of big government. There could be some problems with big government, but I really think that is the reason. I think that is the reason why they never twigged on to it. What is fascinating about their latest marriage is that they voted against the first budget and then when the news about corruption got really bad, that is when they joined. They said, “We had better get together with you guys. This is really looking bad now. We had no idea of this level of corruption”.

Instead of worrying about some of the important issues like border security, the RCMP and some of the other issues, they have signed on with each other in an orgy of spending. It is hundreds of millions of dollars every single day and it will never end of course until we end this coalition. That day will come.

I can tell the member for Brome—Missisquoi that if he is worried about questions like security, a Conservative government will make this a priority. Finally, Canadians will get a government for which this will be a priority, not paying off its friends. This is not going to be a priority for this government. That will come to an end with a Conservative government. We will not be relying, as takes place now, on the local police forces having to pick up the slack, having to pick up the gap between what the Government of Canada thinks is enough for the security of the country and what the country really needs. That day will come to an end when we have a new government in the country and I think it is coming soon.

It is interesting that a government member now is bringing forward this motion. Who knows, we may see the sixth report which is a reminder that the fourth report has not been concurred in.

I urge the hon. member to go home, make sure he lets all his constituents know that the government is not spending money where it is supposed to be spending. It is spending money on the wrong things, as is evidenced by the sworn testimony before the Gomery commission, the sworn testimony that we hear at the public accounts committee, and all the other information outside of these reports that are coming to light. He should tell his constituents that instead of spending money on the right things, he is now part of a group joined by the socialists to spend money and to allow this corruption to continue.

It is a very sad thing, but we will deal with it. I think that day is coming and it is coming very soon when Canadians are going to get their opportunity to pass judgment on the way the government has wasted money.

[Denis Paradis, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Niagara Falls for some of his comments. Judging overall, I sense that we can expect support, not only from him, but from his colleagues as well.

Since the hon. member has had a great deal to say about marriage, there is one marriage I always find astounding. Hon. members will recall the marriage of the Alliance, there was the Reform Party and now the Conservatives. It is not so much the marriage as the engagement that disturbs me. The Conservatives are in such a hurry to have an election that they are prepared to propose marriage to just about anybody.

At the present time, the Conservative Party is wooing, and definitely going to get engaged to, the Bloc Québécois. The two of them have joined together to get an election called as soon as possible. The Conservatives say the agreement is not that bad; it will leave Quebec to the Bloc Québécois and try to gain votes elsewhere. I think that such an arrangement is rather sad, whether it is an engagement or a marriage, we do not know yet how far the relationship has progressed.

As for the RCMP, my colleague has raised the money issue. Several times in committee the commissioner told us that it was not a matter of money, that things were fine from the financial point of view, that he had enough money to do everything he wanted. He said that it was more a matter of changing mindsets. That it was a matter of moving people who were in the regions somewhere else. The commissioner said this would be more effective. I have some trouble with that concept of greater effectiveness.

According to them it is not a matter of money but of effectiveness, and I challenge that.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member raised a number of points. He thanked me and said he was pleased about some of the things I said. I suggest that he should be happy about everything I said. Everything was correct and everything was according to the truth.

He made a couple of interesting points. I do not know if I quite got it. He talked about some sort of a marriage with the Bloc. I assume he is talking about the Prime Minister and the Minister of Transport. Is that what he is talking about? I remember the Minister of Transport being one of the founders of the Bloc Québécois and now he sits beside the Prime Minister. I was talking about, in the general context, the marriage of the NDP and the Liberals, but if he wants to talk about that marriage, then he is certainly welcome to do that because I see it every day from where I sit in the House of Commons. I think he said something about the next election, that the separatists are in a hurry to have the next election.

The choice is not, in Quebec, between separatism and corruption of the Liberal Party. There is another alternative and, of course, that is the Conservative Party of Canada. He should tell those people in his constituency that if they believe in federalism say, yes, the Liberal Party has screwed up, yes, it is corrupt, but that there is another alternative, a clean alternative that supports federalism in this country, and that is the Conservative Party. He should say that it is not just a question between separatism and corruption, there is another federalist option. I have every confidence that we will be moving in that direction.

He now says it is not a question of money. Good heavens, does he mean the government has the money but does not want to commit to national security? At least I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I said maybe the government is just not giving enough cash and it has overlooked that there is not enough money. Now he says it is not about money. I hate to think that, I really do. It is very wrong. Again, and I have said this a number of times, it is a question of misplaced priorities. Security for this country has to be one of the number one concerns of this country. That is what a Conservative government would do.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want a clarification from the hon. member for Niagara Falls. In the preceding two weeks up to the time the deal with the devil was made between the socialists and minority Liberals, am I not correct in understanding that the socialist NDP voted twice against the budget to bring down the very party that it has now climbed into bed with? Have the NDP members not actually said to the Liberals, “Okay, we know that you are corrupt. We know that you are a bad government. But if you pay us off, we will climb into bed with you?” That is something like political prostitution. Is it correct to say that?

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I do not see the relevance of this point. We are dealing with a motion having to do with the RCMP C Division closures. It is totally irrelevant, what the member just said.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I urge all members to be relevant. There was some discussion in the previous question about coalitions and different things. Perhaps an answer from the member for Niagara falls can pull it all together for us.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would love to try. You are quite correct, the hon. member for Brome—Missisquoi did raise this question of coalitions and marriages,

The only point I made was that the NDP members actually opposed the Liberals until the corruption really got bad in the press. When it all became public and the worse it got, the more they started liking the Liberals. Go figure that one out. In any case, I cannot figure it out. When somebody was asking me about the budget, I said that I would call the leader of the NDP's office this afternoon. I might as well have a few copies of it.

Talking about parliamentary procedure, I think the leader of the NDP should have read the budget into the House record. I do not agree with bringing in a federal budget outside the House of Commons. That is not where it should be done. But again, it is a question of priorities. I urge, even at this point, this Liberal-NDP coalition to start putting money into security. That is what this country needs right now.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Mr. Speaker, I guess the member for Niagara Falls has not been reading the budgets, because if he had been, he would know that this government has invested over $9 billion in public safety and security initiatives since 9/11. In fact, in budget 2005, if the members opposite would support it, there would be even more money for public security and the RCMP.

I want to raise the point that the members opposite severely miscast what this discussion is about. Those members are calling for the Parliament of Canada and a standing committee of Parliament to run the day to day affairs of the RCMP. This is not how it works. Parliament enacted the RCMP legislation, which gives the commissioner of the RCMP the authority to deal with the operational decisions of the RCMP, and that is what this is: when some detachments are closed to bring in a critical mass of officers so we can fight more effectively against organized crime and terrorism without having scattered little operations that have no impact.

This is what this is about. The commissioner of the RCMP came to the committee and spoke many times about why this was required for operational reasons to make Quebec and Canadians safer. That is exactly what he said, so how can the members opposite now become the instant experts on security and law enforcement? That is my question.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Mr. Speaker, that is a fascinating and interesting comment from the member. He said that these are “scattered little operations” with “no impact”. I reject that categorically. I hope he is not referring to the detachment in the region of Niagara. I am surprised that he would be referring to those detachments as “scattered little operations” with “no impact”. That is an insult to all the hard-working RCMP members. This is exactly what we are talking about: this lack of concern and a lack of appreciation for what they are doing. As for the idea that they could have had even more money for security but for the Conservatives and the opposition, as he said, it is absolutely ridiculous.

When is this government going to get out of the habit of blaming everyone else for its problems? The other day the Minister of National Revenue blamed the premier of Ontario for contributing to separatism; not Liberal corruption in Quebec but the premier of Ontario is to blame. For heaven's sake, he is in the member's political party. Okay, I appreciate that all the mess and the Gomery commission were made by members of the Liberal Party, but now they are going to tie in the premier of Ontario? They should get it straight, take responsibility for these things and quit insulting members of the RCMP.

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, this is obviously a very interesting topic of discussion and it seems to take in a broad spectrum of interest for Canadians.

I will start by talking about the motion before us, which is specific to C division and the detachments in Quebec. There is no question that there is an absolute concern when RCMP detachments are closed. I am sure that in Quebec, as well as throughout Canada and in my riding, people speak very highly of the RCMP. I have met with people in a number of smaller communities who say that the number one thing to help deter crime is an RCMP detachment in the community.

Just having a detachment there is a deterrent to crime. I have had people tell me that when I go door to door. They say that everything else we can do sounds wonderful, but putting in a detachment with some officers is in itself a deterrent. I have communities in my riding where the nearest RCMP detachment can be two hours or three hours away, where one has to get in by air, and that does create problems.

The parliamentary secretary for the minister has indicated that it is up to the RCMP to decide where the detachments go, that it is up to the commissioner. That is fair enough, but there is no question that the funding for the RCMP has a direct impact on whether or not those detachments can be put in place.

I have met with the RCMP in my area about these issues, and I am sure this is what happened in Quebec with the detachments being closed. They are told that the force has only so many officers to move around and they have to try to cover a larger territory. That is because there is not enough funding. There is no question about it: there needs to be an increase in funding. If we were to put those dollars into the RCMP there probably would be less crime, but certainly if it were to happen the officers would be there to deal with it.

I do not believe for one second that there is any member in the House who does not recognize the importance of the RCMP and who does not recognize the experience, the respectability and credibility of RCMP members. We have a lot of different police forces in the country. They all work very hard to do what they are intended to do, but there is no question that as a national police force the RCMP is a good representative of Canada.

Quite frankly, and I do not mean to ruffle the feathers of my colleagues from the Bloc with this statement, the government would have been far better off to put dollars into the RCMP in Quebec than into the ad scam for unity that it tried. The government would have been far better off to support Canadian entities instead of putting money into ad scams to get money into the pockets of Liberals with the argument that somehow it would be protecting Canada's unity. That was a totally wrong way to look at it.

I will mention another area in which the government could have done the same thing: Canada Post. Small rural post offices are being closed all over Canada and the government is saying that Canada Post is a separate body, it does what it wants and it is out to make a profit. The reality is that the post office is often a central point in the community and it is a representation of Canada, of something that is there for all Canadians. All those rural areas are losing out because this government is not focused on what it should be doing in providing benefits and services to all regions of the country.

The government used the argument of unity in regard to having to put money into the scandals in Quebec, but the reality was that the government wanted the money to get into the pockets of Liberals. That is the reality. I am just saying it could have done things a lot differently. If we were to believe even for one second in the government's argument for unity, the government would have been far better off putting that money into services for all Canadians, into Canada Post, the RCMP and other bodies that are there to provide services for Canadians.

I indicated earlier that the discussion seemed to be going off into a lot of other topics and I cannot help but comment on some that were brought up, specifically, the changes in the budget. In all fairness, I think, it should be reflected that initially the New Democratic Party was not supporting the budget. We were not supporting it and all the Conservatives were. By their silence on the budget, they were supporting it. They were supporting it because it gave huge tax breaks.

However, it did not do anything for the rest of Canada. There were no additional dollars for affordable housing. There were no improvements for student tuition and education. There were no dollars going into foreign aid. Quite frankly, the Conservatives at one point supported increased dollars going into foreign aid. That was not in the budget, even though they talked a fine line. That it was not in the budget was no big deal. It was not an issue with them.

As well, I do not think they necessarily care that dollars will be going back to the municipalities because then they will not have the argument that tax dollars are not going to municipalities. There was also no reflection in the budget of what we needed on Kyoto and the environment. Also, the Conservatives did not really care about the child care issue, so they were going to support the government's initial budget. We were not.

The New Democratic Party did not sign a deal just for New Democrats. The New Democratic Party did not make an agreement for the New Democratic Party. The New Democratic Party made an agreement for Canadians, all Canadians, not just for corporate tax cuts.

We made an agreement that is going to benefit the lives of students throughout this country, not in one region of the country but in all regions of the country. There will be improvements in tuition rates and training opportunities. We wanted more money for affordable housing for all regions of this country, not one region but all regions of this country. We did not get into a deal that was going to benefit just one sector. We made a deal on the budget and only on the budget.

Of course the corruption within the Liberals and the Liberal government and the stuff in Quebec is obscene. Of course it is obscene. That will be dealt with in good time. In the interim, we have a budget to deal with, a budget that Canadians want passed because tax dollars will go back to the municipalities. Constituents in communities in my riding have written to me saying they want to see it passed because they need those dollars.

There are numerous communities in my riding that need affordable housing. They have some of the worst housing conditions there are. Am I going to let that go if I can ensure there will be dollars for housing? And dollars for student tuition? Not a chance.

If we have to get it by coming to a deal on the budget, by ensuring that these areas are addressed for all Canadians, then we are going to do it. We are not here to play politics on this budget when we know those dollars are needed in Canada. They are needed in all those communities. That is what this is about.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member for a comment. She spoke at length about why her party defended the Liberals. Of course we would like to remind Parliament that the NDP voted against the Liberal budget not very long ago. The Conservative Party members, I would like to correct the hon. member, did not support the budget by sitting on their hands. We acted responsibly, because we knew that the government could fall at that time.

I will ask the hon. member what exactly was in this budgetary deal the New Democrats speak so highly of. What was in it for workers and the agricultural community? In their effort to get foreign aid, they forgot to ensure that countries like Haiti received foreign aid. I ask the hon. member what exactly the New Democrats were thinking when they shook hands with a party that never fulfills its promises, so to speak. And what was in the agreement for Atlantic Canada?

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I cannot help but note that this same member just stated that the Conservatives went along with the budget because they did not want the government to fall at that time. It was but a few minutes ago that the member for Niagara Falls said that the NDP waited until the corruption got worse and then supported the government. Those are two different stories from the same party.

Either you should have gotten rid of the government before because the corruption was so bad, when you supported the budget. At least be--

[The Deputy Speaker]

If the member would address her remarks to the Chair, it would be appreciated.

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I apologize.

Once again we are dealing hypocrisy within a party as to how it is dealing with things.

The New Democrats will support the new budget because the government made changes. That is what Parliament is about. We get together, debate and discuss. We all acknowledge that at times discussions go on behind the scenes. We see changes and then support them. We saw changes directly reflected in the budget that are beneficial for Canadians, so we are going to support it. It is as clear and simple as that. I am not going to hide from that.

We made an agreement. If the budget follows through on what was in the agreement, we will support it. That is what integrity is about. We are trying to show Canadians that there can be integrity and honesty in Parliament. We are not going to try to Mickey Mouse words between two members in one party. Members will hear the same message coming from every New Democrat. That is not what we are hearing from the Conservatives.