House of Commons Hansard #123 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was religious.

Topics

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Karen Redman Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, in addition, I move:

That, in relation to its study on the International Policy Statement, the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade be authorized to travel to New York and Washington, from September 25 to 30, 2005, and that the necessary staff do accompany the Committee.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Does the hon. member have the unanimous consent of the House to move the motion?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Karen Redman Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

As well, Mr. Speaker, I move:

That, in relation to its study on Northern cod, including the events leading to the collapse of the fishery and the failure of the stock to reestablish itself since the moratorium, the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans be authorized to travel to Bonavista, Clarenville and St. John's, from September 26 to October 1, 2005, and that the necessary staff do accompany the Committee.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Does the hon. member have the unanimous consent of the House to move the motion?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Karen Redman Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

As well, Mr. Speaker, I move:

That, in relation to its study on the progress of the Riding Mountain National Park Bovine Tuberculosis Monitoring and eradications programs, the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food be authorized to travel to Riding Mountain National Park Region of Manitoba during the week of October 3, 2005, and that the necessary staff do accompany the Committee.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Does the hon. member have the unanimous consent of the House to move the motion?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Karen Redman Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON

Finally, Mr. Speaker, I move:

During its consideration of proceedings pursuant to Standing Order 83.1, the Standing Committee on Finance, together with any necessary staff, may travel within Canada and may authorize the broadcasting of its proceedings.

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

Does the hon. member have the unanimous consent of the House to move the motion?

Committees of the HouseRoutine Proceedings

4:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of Bill C-38, An Act respecting certain aspects of legal capacity for marriage for civil purposes, as reported (with amendments) from the committee, and of the motions in Group No. 1.

Civil Marriage ActGovernment Orders

June 27th, 2005 / 4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure and an honour to stand and debate Bill C-38. It is certainly a debate that has caused a lot of division among Canadians, and it is one where I think many of us are searching to find something within the debate that will actually unite us.

Unfortunately, I think this is an issue that Canadians have decided. They are either on one side of the debate or the other. I really suspect that we will not change a lot of opinions, that we will not turn many heads, and I do agree that it is time to have the debate out on this, to have the vote on it, and to move on as a Parliament.

Certainly the debate on same gender civil marriage--and I do want to emphasize the word “civil”--is an issue on which I have spent a great deal of personal time and research, and it is one where I have struggled to find balance. This is not an easy issue for many, but it is also not an issue on which I intend to abrogate my responsibility as a member of Parliament.

I can say to anyone in South Shore—St. Margaret's, the riding I am fortunate to represent, that I have approached this issue in an honest, straightforward, and methodical manner, and I plan to continue in that manner.

From the beginning of the discussion on same gender civil marriage, I have maintained that all of our religious institutions must be free to decide for themselves whether to sanction same gender marriage. Allow me to be very clear on this point. Paragraph 2(a) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms gives extremely clear and unambiguous protection for religious freedom. People who say differently are using scare tactics. Our churches, mosques, synagogues, and temples in Canada will decide their own future on religious marriage, as they have up to this point.

I think it is extremely important to mention that we already have same gender religious marriage in Canada, that the United Church of Canada recognizes and some of our Anglican churches in Canada recognize same gender marriage now. They moved on this point before the Parliament of Canada. They did not wait for the Parliament of Canada. That is up to the churches. We could not say yes or no to them because they are independent of the legislative process.

Bill C-38 deals only with civil marriage, but it does go so far as to actually reinforce the protection for religious marriage in the preamble of the bill. Again, I think this is the strength of the bill, whereas nothing in the act affects the guarantee of freedom of conscience and religion, and in particular the freedom of members of religious groups to refuse to perform marriages that are not in accordance with their religious beliefs.

Every day our churches refuse to perform marriages that are not in accordance with their religious beliefs. The Catholic church refuses to marry divorced couples. The Anglican church that I was brought up in refuses to marry divorced couples. Someone might find a priest who is friendly and may marry them, but that is their doctrine.

The church has always been clearly separate from the legislative process. They have always set their own rules. They have always had the ability to change the rules should the church itself decide to change them. I am very afraid that we could set a precedent in Parliament that turns that around, that we do start to tell the churches who they can and cannot marry. If we do not pass same gender civil marriage, are we de facto then saying to the United Church of Canada and the Anglican church that they cannot recognize same gender marriages, that they should not marry same gender couples, that they are not an independent religious institution? That is a question we should all be asking ourselves.

Parliament, on the other hand, has a responsibility to legislate same gender civil marriage. The only way Parliament cannot allow same gender civil marriage is to use the notwithstanding clause. I adamantly believe that this would be an abuse of civil rights which could lead to the erosion of other civil rights that Canadians have long carried. If we use the notwithstanding clause on this issue, what would prevent us from using it on other issues? I am not willing to agree to that in any way, shape or form.

I believe that my job as a member of Parliament is to be informed of all the ramifications surrounding an issue and vote on that issue to reflect the will of my constituents. I am well aware that every time I vote a group of people in Canada and a group of my own constituents will disagree with my position. Therefore, I try to the best of my ability to base my decisions on fact, not on fear, and on reason, not on instinct.

I am well aware of the sensitivity of this issue and the almost visceral response that some people have to it. I have saved all the e-mails that have threatened my life, my kids and my family because that is a stance that is unacceptable. It does not matter which side of the debate one is on, that is unacceptable.

None of that, however, changes the fact that Parliament has to deal with same gender civil marriage. I have not made a rash or uninformed decision and I fully understand, I believe, that people are split roughly fifty-fifty on this issue. I have certainly considered the fact that the overwhelming majority of the public is willing to recognize same gender civil marriage but wants religious marriage to remain under the jurisdiction of our religious institutions.

I explained earlier that section 2(a) of the charter protects religious freedom. Parliament's responsibility is to study and make informed decisions about same gender civil marriage based on Parliament's role to legislate, guided, I would add, by the parameters of our Constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It would be intellectually dishonest of me to say that Parliament does not have to legislate this.

Today Canada has varying forms of same gender marriage in eight provinces and one territory. This includes a decision by the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia that has led the way to same sex civil marriage in my own province. A recent decision has led the way to same sex civil marriage in the province of New Brunswick.

I am absolutely satisfied that churches are protected and are masters of their own destiny. I have explained in a couple of instances already where that has proven to be true throughout the ages. Therefore, they can refuse to marry same gender couples or, like some of our churches today, they can choose to marry same gender couples. It is clearly their decision for religious marriage, not Parliament's.

For civil marriage, however, government has only two options. The government can challenge the provincial supreme court decisions, which the provinces have already chosen not to do, or it can legislate civil marriage. I have carefully reviewed both options and agree with the government's decision to proceed with legislation on same gender civil marriage, as eight provinces and one territory have already done.

I am frankly astounded by the reaction of some parliamentarians, who in the past have criticized the Supreme Court of Canada for making decisions they thought should best be left to parliamentarians. Now, some of those same parliamentarians are saying the government should litigate and not legislate.

Frankly, I am also surprised at the clarity of the language in Bill C-38, at the lack of ambiguity and the clear protection for religious marriage because of the protection of the charter. I am not used to this type of clarity from the Liberals and generally expect to find legislation riddled with mistakes. Bill C-38 is one of the few pieces of their legislation I have analyzed that is not.

In summary, I note that Bill C-38 has done what I believe it has needed to do in order for me to support it. It has clearly protected religious marriage while allowing for the civil marriage of same gender couples.

I realize that not everyone will agree with same gender civil marriage. Some will continue to say that a civil union is good enough, but I respectfully disagree. This was the same argument that was used to justify segregated schools in the United States and was struck down in the now landmark Brown v. Board of Education case, which ruled that separate is not equal. I feel certain that the same result would befall any similar legislation here.

I also know at first hand the entrenched views of many people who would deny the right of civil marriage to same gender couples, yet I know that there is a lot of tolerance in this country. Often I hear that there is less tolerance in rural Canada, but I believe there is as much tolerance in rural Canada as there is in urban Canada, whether the issue is same gender civil marriage or any other issue that is put before people. I represent a rural riding in a very conservative part of the country that is as religious as any other part of this country. I can say for a fact that there is room in most of this country to accept divergent views and to accept the right of couples who are in a committed relationship to further commit to that relationship through civil marriage.

Civil Marriage ActGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB

Mr. Speaker, it is very interesting to hear the hon. member for South Shore—St. Margaret's talk about the very conservative constituency he represents. I assume that is because he is here representing that party, but when he reassures us that the majority of people in that area support the bill, it certainly may further his argument on the so-called charter or bill of rights. There are many who disagree with the charter in terms of what his interpretation is.

Perhaps he could tell the House in terms of the bill of rights and the charters in so many countries, what other country includes marriage as a charter right under its charter or bill of rights?

Civil Marriage ActGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

Mr. Speaker, that is not an area of expertise that I have. I do not know how many other countries actually include marriage in the charter. That is my honest answer.

There is a question that I constantly ask myself about the civil marriage argument versus the civil union argument, and quite a few people use the member's question to lead into it. What would have happened in this country in the days when we first brought in civil marriage for opposite sex couples had we brought in civil unions? Had we done that, I think the civil union argument would work. We did not do that.

We also should ask ourselves why we have civil marriage. We brought in civil marriage because our religious institutions refused to marry certain people. Therefore, to give women proprietary rights and hereditary rights when their husbands died, we brought in civil marriage; if they were not married in a church they did not have those rights. We also brought in the civil marriage act to legitimize children born from those marriages.

We have to ask ourselves a number of questions. I appreciate the member's question, but I think there is a real legitimacy to having civil marriage and having it recognized by Parliament.

Civil Marriage ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Mr. Speaker, I would like to take a few minutes to thank the hon. member for what I think is one of the finest speeches I have heard in this House on this issue. In particular, what struck me about the member's speech was the fact that he was speaking without the rhetoric and without the attacks that we have heard on this issue.

I also represent a rural riding. When an issue such as this comes up in a rural riding it is definitely contentious, but what I find people are more uncomfortable with than the issue of civil marriage is this false Manichaean divide that exists between the so-called enlightened and the so-called dark forces and the kind of bile and attacks that have been laid out in this campaign time after time. That is what people in my constituency are growing more and more uncomfortable with.

Like the hon. member, I have received hundreds of letters attacking and ridiculing people of faith who believe that civil marriage should go forward. They have attacked us because we are considered not religiously proper enough, which I find is a falsehood.

I could live with that because people are sincere and concerned and feel strongly about this, but what I have a hard time accepting is the sight of politicians standing up and treating themselves as paragons of moral virtue, lording it over us on how the family should be. Most families I know have a hard enough time getting by. In most families, people have agreed to marry their loved ones and have done it with the best of intentions. Some are undermined over the years and their marriages break up. Do we condemn those people? No, we do not. Do we say that their children are failures? No, we do not. Or do we say that if those families cannot have children they are failures? No, we do not.

Fundamentally, marriage is two people trying to build a relationship in the long term. This is what it fundamentally is. When I see politicians standing up and offering their example as something that we have to look up to morally, I find that very surprising, because at the end of the day I do not think this is a matter of one party having truth or not.

On this issue, I feel that as members of Parliament we came here all of us in good conscience, all of us having to come together, all of us having to vote, and at the end of the day it does not make someone better or worse for having made the decision.

I would like to ask the hon. member if he feels that at the end of the day the best we can do as parliamentarians is to vote according to how we think is best for moving this society forward.

Civil Marriage ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

We have run out of time. Very briefly, the hon. member for South Shore--St. Margaret's.

Civil Marriage ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gerald Keddy Conservative South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS

Mr. Speaker, there were several questions. I will be very quick. I think the one question I would like to answer is actually about the fact that this is an issue that divides Canadians. Like the member, I represent a rural riding. It is a very difficult and complex issue. I think the member may have said that the majority of people favour this issue. In my riding, my constituents are very clearly divided, fifty-fifty. There is another 20% who actually have not said where they stand or have not determined where they stand.

For me, the issue is that this puts the ball back in our court. We have a responsibility as parliamentarians. We have a responsibility to be straightforward, clear and honest in our debate on this issue and then to vote on it, and then to move on and hopefully represent our constituents and Canadians who want nothing more here than equality before the courts and equality with civil marriage.

Civil Marriage ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Scarborough—Guildwood Ontario

Liberal

John McKay LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance

Mr. Speaker, I find myself in a somewhat ironic position from this side, in that I am speaking against the bill. I think it is a bill that cannot be redeemed and is fatally flawed.

Civil Marriage ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

An hon. member

It just goes to show there is democracy in the Liberal caucus.

Civil Marriage ActGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague reminds me of the democracy that prevails in the Liberal caucus, which is true. It is a fairly highly contentious caucus from time to time over a variety of issues, not the least of which is this one. It is also ironic that just as the public is starting to engage in this debate, we are now moving to a vote.

I hear hon. members argue that we have been talking about this for years now, incorporating the travelling road show that we had with the justice committee, et cetera, on which the justice committee of course could not report because the court of appeal pre-empted the decision. Actually there has not been that much debate other than the hearings that have been held by the legislative committee over the last few weeks.

I know that both sides of this debate are, frankly, heartily sick of the debate. They just want it to end. They think that because the debate is ending the issue is going to go away. I respectfully suggest that this is just the beginning of the end.

This bill will revolutionize the way we think about marriage in this country. I would analogize it to the way in which the Divorce Act back in the 1970s under the late Prime Minister Trudeau revolutionized the issue of divorce in this country.

Who would have thought at that time that by making very minor and arguably insignificant changes to the Divorce Act, it would create a divorce culture where a considerable percentage of marriages now end in divorce? Who would have thought that we would create a feminization of poverty? It is women and children who pay the bills at the end of the day with respect to the marriage breakups. Who would have thought that we would have created a culture in which parents and children are increasingly disconnected, largely to the detriment of the children?

Small changes in law inevitably lead to large societal changes. I would argue that this small change is in fact going to lead to a large societal change.

The Government of Canada wishes us to believe that we are changing the definition of civil marriage. The previous speaker laid great emphasis on the notion that this is a civil marriage change, but I would beg to differ with the hon. member who previously spoke. This is a distinction without a difference. This bill changes the meaning of marriage, period. It is a profound bill. It changes the way in which Canadians think about the institution of marriage.

Trying to make distinctions between civil marriage and religious marriage or any other kind of marriage in my respectful opinion is nonsense. Marriage under Bill C-38 requires no gender difference. Therefore, anybody who believes that marriage requires a gender difference, that it is between a male and a female, is by definition a bigot. Look at the preamble:

WHEREAS, in light of those considerations, the Parliament of Canada’s commitment to uphold the right to equality without discrimination precludes the use of section 33 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to deny the right of couples of the same sex to equal access to marriage for civil purposes;

Anyone who believes differently is in implicit violation of the law. The preamble declares that the view of marriage which requires no sex difference prevails in all matters, and anyone who believes otherwise is a bigot. We could line up all the priests, rabbis, imams and pastors from here to Montreal and back, and frankly it would make no difference. Seventy per cent of Canadians believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. With the passage of this bill, that 70% will be the new class of bigots in our society, and they will feel the wrath of transgressing this law very shortly. The state of course cannot sanction bigotry, so clause 3 of the bill must fail, because it pretends to protect and it cannot. It simply cannot.

Those Canadians who take the view, as do many of us, that marriage is between a man and a woman are simply going to be on the wrong side of the law. Any person who refuses to marry two persons of the same gender is going to feel the effect of that law. We have already seen marriage commissioners fired for their perverse view that marriage requires a man and a woman.

Inevitably, a religious official will be set up and inevitably a prosecution will entail. Inevitably, under a human rights council or something else similar to a human rights commission, the person will be prosecuted and will be found guilty of discrimination. Frankly, there is no protection that this government or indeed any other can give to that perverse view that marriage is between a man and a woman.

In my view, Bill C-38 creates a whole new class of bigots for that strange and weird and crazy view that marriage is between a man and a woman. Why is it that these crazy bigots insist on this perverse view that marriage is between a man and a woman?

For thousands of years it has been the view of human beings throughout the world that when people entered into a state of marriage they all understood that marriage was something about sex and something about babies. No marriage, no babies; no babies, no marriage. It is not much more complicated than that. Life itself is more complicated, of course, but the institution in and of itself was central to the well-being of society and its perpetuation. The cross-generativity was and is the norm of most people's view of marriages.

Why is it that the laws of marriage and divorce are so complicated? I know that there are a number of men and women in this chamber who have studied law. They realize that the family law area is incredibly complex and has become incredibly complex over the period of time since the changes to the Divorce Act. One anticipates that it will become even more complex.

If marriage is just about two people announcing to the world that he or she is my new best buddy, really who would care? Why would we have this whole set of complex laws?

In order to get to this close relationship theory of marriage, which is the theory that now replaces the theory that currently underpins marriage, we have to eliminate a lot inconvenient beliefs and facts. We have to believe that a cross-gender relationship that leads to the bridging of the sex difference is of no consequence. We have to believe that babies that result from a sex difference are not important to the marriage bond. We have to believe that how babies come into this world makes no difference to the child.

Why does society insist on this very public commitment of a male to a female and a female to a male? Why does it create law to protect the female and the child during the very vulnerable period of baby making and baby rearing? Why do we make it so difficult to be divorced? If in fact the law was just about two people getting together and announcing their commitment to each other, what would be the point of all of these divorce and family laws?

The only answer is that society gets its existence out of marriage. Society builds up elaborate rituals, religious and others, and laws to ensure that it continues. It is the way that the male is brought into the system and that the female is protected. Marriage reaches forward into future generations and it connects back into previous generations. It says to society at large, “We will perpetuate you; you, society, through your rituals and your laws, protect us”.

Under the close personal relationship theory of this bill, which is the theory that underlies the bill and underlies the decisions of the court, everyone should have a buddy, all of that becomes irrelevant. I would point again to the preamble:

WHEREAS marriage is a fundamental institution in Canadian society and the Parliament of Canada has a responsibility to support that institution because it strengthens commitment in relationships and represents the foundation of family life for many Canadians;

It is the foundation for family formation. When marriage is degraded to simply a public declaration of one's best buddy, then the institution of marriage becomes meaningless.

The other area I object to in the bill is the delinking of children from their DNA and biology. In order to do that, we have to put in a consequential amendment, because now a child will have its parent determined by a judge. It will be a judge who says is a child's parent. I think this is a retrograde step, but it is a necessary consequential amendment.

The bill is seriously flawed. It should be defeated. It changes the public meaning of marriage. It creates a whole new class of bigots. It delinks children from marriage. It cannot be amended and it should be defeated.

Civil Marriage ActGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Art Hanger Conservative Calgary Northeast, AB

Madam Speaker, I listened very carefully to the comments by the hon. member for Scarborough—Guildwood. I have to say that I appreciated them.

I, too, agree that the bill is fatally flawed. He pointed that out and gave reasons in several areas in the allotted time he had, but I am sure he had others.

The member is a man who believes in God. He understands the ramifications of the bill. He mentioned those very things in his statement today. Given that, obviously there will be preachers around who will run into a few problems. There may even be people like you, Madam Speaker, or the member who just spoke, or me who have faith in God and may want to advise somebody else.

I will read a short passage and I will ask the member how the bill will protect the preacher who reads it. It comes from a book called the Bible. It is from Corinthians:

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Those are pretty straightforward words and, I might say, that is only one portion of the scripture that contains such words. Given that, when we look at the pressures the preachers in this country may inherit, how will the bill protect them? Where will it end? Will they end up like Bishop Henry in front of a human rights tribunal?

Civil Marriage ActGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Madam Speaker, we seem to be having a lot of scripture quoted in the chamber. I am reminded that the devil can quote scripture as well as anyone.

The hon. member actually raised an interesting issue in a broader context. Rather than comment on the specific passage, if I were a preacher who was thinking about preaching on that particular section on Sunday morning, I think I would want to take some legal advice.

The interesting point that relates to the bill itself has to do with the faith protection for religious authorities which, in my view, cannot stand, but there is no protection for those who do not ground themselves in a faith based analysis or argument. That is regrettable, because the charter protects not only freedom of religion, it is supposed to protect freedom of conscience as well.

If a person simply grounded his or her argument on the basis of philosophy or some non-religious text, that person would be in more trouble than if he or she grounded his or her views on marriage in a religious area.