Debates of April 27th, 2006

Federal Accountability Act

[Kevin Sorenson, Conservative, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege to stand in the House to speak to Bill C-2, an act providing for conflict of interest rules, restrictions on election financing and measures respecting administrative transparency, oversight and accountability, otherwise known as the federal accountability act.

Before I begin my remarks, I want to thank the citizens of the federal riding of Crowfoot, Alberta for their confidence shown in me on January 23 when they re-elected me for the third time. I appreciate very much their continued support for the work that I am doing in Ottawa and at home on their behalf.

I am in support of the federal accountability act, Bill C-2. This is the first bill introduced by the new government. It will make profound changes in the way the federal government does business. Bill C-2 would move the federal government toward an open and accountable government and address the government corruption, mismanagement and waste that had been allowed to take root over the past 13 years of Liberal rule.

From the campaign trail to the Speech from the Throne, my colleagues and I in the Conservative Party have pledged to clean up government. The federal accountability act, Bill C-2, marks the beginning of change for which Canadians voted.

As a government, we are committed to doing a number of things, but predominantly we are committed to respecting taxpayer dollars. We are committed to respecting the independent offices of Parliament, like the Auditor General and others, as well as the institutions of Parliament.

The bill contains at least 13 major reforms, major ways that we are going to change the system, and 60 distinct initiatives. It is about 270 pages long. This is a very large piece of legislation that will affect many offices in the Government of Canada. Great attention has been paid to try to ensure that it does not duplicate, overlap or conflict with existing accountability measures.

Canadians are asking, why now? Bill C-2 represents a big change in the way we govern ourselves. Canadians have asked, in the wake of the previous government's difficulties, that the system be changed. The Auditor General reported in 2004 that there was large scale corruption, the loss of $100 million, and that “every rule in the book” had been broken.

Further investigations uncovered the fact that the unethical behaviour had been going on for years in the country's political leadership. The former Liberal government did not stop it. That is why Bill C-2 is here. We are saying that the buck stops here. We asked Canadians to allow us the power to do something about corruption and they gave us the opportunity.

Our first piece of legislation is to lead the way in trying to prevent in the future anyone, any party, any government from engaging in the kind of corruption and scandal that occurred in recent Liberal governments. Canadian taxpayers have simply had enough.

In the hours of debate on the bill so far, I am pleased to see that there appears to be support for Bill C-2. I think the Bloc has shown that it supports it in principle. The NDP member for Winnipeg Centre, a long time member of the public accounts committee, spoke eloquently about the changes proposed in the bill. The Liberals have said that they will support the bill, while they are busy trying to mend their own ways on the other side of the House, and those ways should be amended, we all know. We are here to fix the system, to create systemic change.

Let us look at what Bill C-2 does. Let us look at what we have to do to prevent future corrupt behaviour with taxpayer dollars. Listen to this.

Bill C-2, if passed, will reform financing of political parties. It will ban secret donations. It will strengthen the role of the Ethics Commissioner. It will toughen the lobbyist laws. It will ensure truth in budgeting; $1.9 billion is not the same as $9.1 billion. The list is not finished yet. It will ensure that government appointments are based on merit. It will clean up government contracting, polling and advertising by preventing the government in power from abusing this information for its own political purposes. It will protect whistleblowers. It will strengthen the power of the Auditor General, auditing and accountability systems in departments. It will create a director for public prosecutions. That is quite a long list.

The government is not holding back. The government will deliver what Canadians have asked for and what was committed in the last election.

We need to get the bill to committee. Together we can work on it in detail and ensure it gets the job done once it is passed into law. That is not beyond us. I know there were some recommendations that may be amendments coming from colleagues from the NDP, the Bloc and the Liberals. Let us get it to committee and let us take a look at those amendments. With political will, we can try to have Bill C-2 protect taxpayer dollars from being abused, misused, even lost or stolen.

The bill gives life to countless recommendations made by the Auditor General over the years. This follows her requests. The bill includes what Justice Gomery recommended in his reports, after months of testimony and tens of thousands of pages of evidence.

I want to refer to the remarks made a couple of days ago by the hon. member for Edmonton—St. Albert. He has for many years served the House extremely well as the chair of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. His committee heard testimony on many chapters from auditor general reports down through the years. He is also the chair of the Global Organization of Parliamentarians Against Corruption. He stated in his speech that he had a real concern for the intergovernmental community and the governmental corruption in many other parts of the world, which thwarts development assistance and causes suffering and hardship for millions of people. In other words, he was very concerned about governance in other countries.

As a result of my service as vice-chair on the foreign affairs and international trade committee, that was a major concern which was brought forward in our committee as well. The feeling of the member for Edmonton—St. Albert was that this was a comprehensive enough bill that he believed many nations would look to the bill as a grid, as a guideline, as a standard, that could help in their countries for their own purposes.

When we talk about building democracies around the world, we do not simply talk about having a free election. We talk about ensuring that a strong government is in place, a government of integrity, a government that is not going to misuse or misappropriate public funds for its own political purposes. I appreciated his comments.

I truly hope this document does not only change the system, a systemic change that Canada so desperately needs, I hope it helps other countries as they look to making their democracies stronger. I hope we can all benefit and bolster the efforts to combat corruption.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened very carefully to the member for Crowfoot. I know he believes, and all members should believe, that we all allow our names to stand to serve our country with good and honourable intentions. However, they also came here as a party in 1993 with this law and order initiative, and I personally agreed with that. What is law and order? When we see corruption, misuse and abuse, it is incumbent upon us, as legislators, to initiate the proper machinery to rectify, to apprehend the culprits and to bring them to justice.

However, if he believes in a just and lawful society with due process and the rule of law, then he will agree with me that the commission under Judge Gomery was brought forward by the Liberal government because we wanted to get to the bottom of who abused the system. Does he not agree that it was the right thing to do, no matter what came out of it and who the culprits were?

[Kevin Sorenson, Conservative, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I remember when I was growing up that the punishment always came after I got caught. When I did something wrong as a young child there would be a very quick and just punishment, but there was also something else. There were the laws and the rules of my little home that were put in place and I knew what was right and what was wrong.

I watched the previous government carry on for 13 years. I wonder if it even had any idea of the difference between right and wrong.

When we watched during the last number of elections that took place the things that were happening, the political donations, the brown envelopes, the sponsorship scandal and others, it was modus operandi of that party. After the Liberals got caught with their hands in the cookie jar, they came forward with a judicial inquiry, the Gomery commission, and he said, “Shame on you”.

The Conservative government said that we will clean up the mess. This bill brings forward changes that will clean up the system.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Mr. Speaker, people in Trinity--Spadina tell me that they want access to information without all the barriers. They want timely access. They want the cost to be minimal. They want improvement. They said that cabinet documents should be made public. They also said that government records about third parties, about contracts and about polling should be made public and there needs to be improved access to this information. They also said that non-profit groups that receive two-thirds of their funding from the government should also be opening up their books.

If the government really wants the public to know what is happening, why is it so eager to keep information secret, especially information on the deals that were made by the former Liberal government? We want to have that information made public, especially if those deals are not the best deals around. Why do you not want to make this information public?

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

I would just remind the hon. member for Trinity--Spadina to address all comments through the Chair and not direct them to members. The hon. member for Crowfoot.

[Kevin Sorenson, Conservative, Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the member has asked that question a number of times today.

I am one who has brought forward requests for access to information. I have been very dismayed when after years have gone by the documents come forward with white-out over the whole page, with maybe a little paragraph at the bottom of one page and another paragraph somewhere else.

That is one of the reasons I am very pleased with the accountability act, that there will be changes to the Access to Information Act and to a number of other acts as well.

We want to be able to hold governments to account. Canadians want to be able to hold governments to account. They expect openness and transparency in their government.

Legitimate concerns are still there with access to information. We also have privacy laws. Some things perhaps may have to be kept secret for legal reasons. There are other commercial confidentialities. There is the protection of intergovernmental affairs which is very legitimate.

However, pages 24 and 25 of the accountability bill lay out a very comprehensive strategy for making government more transparent.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. While the member for Crowfoot was responding to questions, when he was referring to corruption, mismanagement, misuse and so on, and I will not repeat all the words, the member for Nepean--Carleton pointed to me directly referring to “you, you”.

We all come, as I said earlier, to this hon. House. When he gets one to one and personal, I say that the member should stand up and apologize simply because it is that type of poisonous environment that is hurting the Canadian nation as a whole.

I demand an apology because he addressed it directly to me.

[An hon. member]

From who?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member will be waiting until it is a very cold day some place other than here before he gets an apology from me. I am proud to say that I am a member of a party that has exposed 13 years of brutal corruption unparalleled in Canadian history. I will never be silenced in speaking out against it.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I challenge the member for Nepean—Carleton to step outside this chamber right now and make the same statement. Step outside and--

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

Order. The hon. member for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke on a point of order.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I did not hear the accusation. I did not hear it actually happen. Could we check Hansard and see whether or not anything was picked up?

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

I think all hon. members will want to remember the tones and the phrases that were used in the first days of this Parliament, when we all agreed to try to elevate the decorum of this place and to try to follow the rules regarding language and procedure and decorum in the House.

I will review the blues as to what was said by the parliamentary secretary to examine what was said. I would really implore all members to not impute any motives of other hon. members, to not assign any kind of purposeful misbehaviour.

On that note we will continue with the rest of the debate.

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Mr. Speaker, many of us in this House routinely begin our speeches on various issues by saying what a tremendous pleasure it is to speak to the issue and how important the issue is to Canada and to Canadians. Never has that been more true for me than it is today.

I believe this government's accountability act is truly the most important and the most necessary piece of legislation this House has seen in decades. I cannot say strongly enough how proud I am to be standing here today as part of the government that has introduced this bill.

This legislation will profoundly change the way government does business. It will dramatically change the relationship between the federal government and Canadian society. It will lay bare the mechanics of government, including the way Canadians' tax dollars are managed and the way government makes important decisions. It will replace partisan political interference and corruption with non-partisan oversight. It will allow public scrutiny to restore public trust.

In short, the government's accountability act heralds a new age in Canadian governance. This is an enormous bill and believe me, it does not waste any ink. Every single clause in this bill contributes to the real and meaningful reform of the way the federal government does its work and relates to Canadians.

Given that I have very little time—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

I apologize for the interruption, but the hon. member for Scarborough Centre is rising on a point of order.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member for Nepean—Carleton is now leaving his chair, indicating that he was going to come outside and pose the same wording that he had in this chamber. I either get an apology for personally addressing those comments to me, or he immediately steps out of the chamber and states that publicly. I meant it the first time.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

I have already indicated that I will review what was said in the House and come back after reviewing Hansard. So anything other than that is not a point of order at this time.

We will continue with the member from Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I will not argue with you, Mr. Speaker.

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Mr. Speaker, given that I have very little time, I cannot address every aspect of this very important bill. I will simply mention the highlights, particularly the part of this bill that most interests me, that is, how we treat public servants who denounce corruption.

The accountability act will clean up the way political parties are financed. Donations from corporations, unions and organizations will be banned. Individuals will be allowed to donate no more than $1,000 each to parties, candidates, riding associations, and leadership candidates.

This will make party financing more transparent and level the playing field for all Canadians who wish to donate to political campaigns. Unions, businesses and the very wealthy will no longer be able to decide which party has a richer war chest.

Even more important, these changes will prevent scandals like the Liberal sponsorship scam from being repeated. No governing party will ever again be able to give taxpayers' money to its friends in the business world in return for kickbacks in the form of political donations.

The accountability act will also entrench the conflict of interest code for public office holders in law and create a new conflict of interest and ethics commissioner to administer those rules. The Prime Minister will no longer be able to overrule the Ethics Commissioner. Ministers will have to put their interests in truly blind trusts. We will no longer see a situation in which a Prime Minister or a finance minister can discuss his shipping business with the people managing it, or sell it to his sons and pretend to be uninvolved.

This bill will enable ordinary citizens to participate directly in the accountability process. Under the act, the public can provide information to the Ethics Commissioner through members of Parliament.

The accountability act will prevent ministers and their aides from leaving government to immediately take lucrative jobs lobbying their friends who remain in government. It will require lobbyists to register their lobbying efforts and prevent them from collecting so-called success fees.

This bill will help Parliament scrutinize the government's financial management and budgeting process by establishing a budget authority to provide independent financial analysis, information and advice to parliamentarians. Canadians have seen in recent years how governments can hand out money with one hand while picking taxpayers' pockets with the other. Canadians are fed up with their money being concealed and shuffled around in a political shell game.

The budget authority will also have a mandate to estimate the financial costs of proposed programs. Maybe if we had had an independent body like that a few years ago, the true costs of the Liberal rifle registry would have been known ahead of time and the whole fiasco would have been prevented. Instead the registry went ahead and ended up costing a thousand times what it was supposed to cost. This must never happen again.

The accountability act will also give Parliament a voice in the appointment of officers of Parliament. We will thereby put an end to preferential treatment for friends of ministers in the public service hiring process.

The bill would also allow the Auditor General to audit organizations and individuals who receive taxpayer money. Wherever public money ends up, the Auditor General would be able to follow it and shine a light on how it is being used. Gone are the days when the hard-earned money of Canadian taxpayers was simply syphoned off into oblivion, never to be heard from again.

The accountability act would also strengthen the audit functions within departments and create tougher penalties for fraud involving public funds. At the same time, it would create a director of public prosecution, independent from the political system, who would decide when to prosecute criminal offences under federal laws.

Canadians were disgusted with the lack of charges laid and the lenient penalties handed out after untold millions of dollars of their money were stolen through the Liberal sponsorship program.

There are many other concrete ways the bill would keep governments honest and transparent but I want to finish off by focusing on one area with which I have been deeply involved: assisting and protecting public servants who have the courage to come forward to expose corruption.

I was sickened to see the way the previous government treated our public servants. As a retired public servant myself, I know very well the depth of professionalism and the quality of people in Canada's public service. I was shocked to hear the Liberals repeatedly blame public servants for the massive kickback scheme that filled the Liberal Party's coffers with taxpayer money. I was heartbroken by the way the Liberals repeatedly and systematically ruined public servants who had the courage and the integrity to blow the whistle on corruption and abuse within their departments.

The bill the Liberals introduced in the last Parliament to address this issue, Bill C-11, offered nothing for public servants. It contained no independent process to receive and investigate whistleblower complaints, no penalties for punishing whistleblowers and no new process for whistleblowers to report reprisals. In fact, it actually added insult to injury by shielding internal audit information from access to information laws and allowed the Prime Minister and his cabinet to arbitrarily exempt government bodies from its provisions.

The Conservative members in the government operations committee, sometimes with the support of the NDP, fought tooth and nail to address some of the shortcomings in the Liberal bill. At the end of that long battle the House passed a bill that was still very weak but at least we could say that it was slightly better than the status quo.

Now that we are in government, we Conservatives will provide strong, meaningful support to our honest and courageous public servants. Never again will public servants like Allan Cutler have their careers cut short and their lives derailed because they exposed corruption and saved taxpayers money.

The accountability act is the toughest anti-corruption law in Canadian history. For example, the bill would bring in a corruption watchdog to protect whistleblowers against bullies; end the revolving door between lobby firms and ministers' offices; give the Auditor General the power to shine light in every dark corner in her hunt for waste and theft; and ban big money and corporate cash from political campaigns. By moving from a culture of entitlement to a culture of accountability, we are fixing the system for all Canadians.

I recognize the importance of allowing Parliament to fully study and debate all bills, and I realize that the bill is a very thick document, but I hope my hon. colleagues opposite will treat the accountability act with the urgency it deserves so we can get on with restoring the public trust that has been so badly damaged by the scandals of the past government.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member made a statement that the bill would provide a protection watchdog for whistleblowers.

In the last Parliament, over a one year period the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates dealt with Bill C-11. The hon. member will know that the bill was referred to the committee before second reading, which gave the committee full latitude to do a very good job and make it an effective bill. Indeed, the committee did a very good job and actually made very substantial amendments, almost re-wrote the entire bill. The bill was passed unanimously at the committee. It came to the House and it passed with the support of all parties at all stages and was given royal assent.

It is law in Canada but it is not in force today and the reason it is not in force today is because it has not been proclaimed. It is that act, the Liberal bill on whistleblowers, that is providing the protection for whistleblowers. This particular bill, Bill C-2, makes some minor amendments to our bill but does not, in fact, provide for their protection. I just wanted to provide that clarification.

My question is with regard to the thickness of the act. Does the member believe that we should ram this bill through by the summer or should we take the time that our committee did in the last Parliament to ensure we make good decisions?

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I find it interesting that the member calls Bill C-11 a Liberal bill. At committee we received a bill that was, quite frankly, absolutely unacceptable. There was great discussion as to whether we should tear the damn thing up and start over or whether we could work with it. Quite frankly, it was touch and go as to what we would do. We, as a committee, decided that maybe we could work with it because we needed whistleblower legislation.

Thanks to the Conservatives and many members in this House, we worked and finally came up with, certainly not a perfect bill but a bill that gave some protection to whistleblowers. We decided as a committee that we would bring that bill back to Parliament.

The new bill we are introducing really does the job that the Conservatives wanted all along and I am glad I am part of the government that is doing that.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to ask a question of my colleague across the way, whom I thank for his statement.

I would like to address certain points. My colleague mentioned that government must be accountable, and that is certainly important. We must, however, be aware of certain realities. After ministers leave politics, they cannot become lobbyists, but is it acceptable for lobbyists to become ministers? We must ask ourselves this question, which is directly related to accountability.

And now for the question for my hon. colleague. Many promises are made during election campaigns. Does he think that a government that fails to keep all of the promises made by its elected members or candidates during the last election campaign is an accountable government?

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his question.

It is interesting that he asked about ministers. How many ministers during an 18 month period in the last Parliament had to resign because of the scandal that surrounded the last Parliament? Those were ministers of the Crown who had to resign in shame. We had strippergate and all kinds of gates but he truth of the matter is that we finally have a government that will clean house. The last two members who asked those two questions sat on the committee and protected the previous corrupt government that had spent 13 years getting us down to the depths where we were.

After 13 years of corruption, we finally have a government that will be transparent and will give Canadians value for dollar.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will begin by saying that I do support the spirit of the proposed accountability act because accountability is our obligation as parliamentarians and the very least that Canadians should receive from those entrusted to guide this nation and to serve its people.

We heard a great deal about the sponsorship scandal not just today but it has dominated debate during the last two federal elections. It was a stain on our nation. It demeaned our democracy, this House and the work of the members who serve our many and diverse communities.

As I said, I do support the spirit of the bill but I do have some concerns. Like any bill cobbled together rather hastily, Bill C-2 has many flaws. My concern is that in its 270 pages it may prove to be more ponderous than enlightening and could collapse in on itself. Therefore I believe that it needs some refinements for the sake of ensuring that it does precisely what it was intended to do and that is to bring back accountability and integrity. We in the New Democratic Party would like to work with all members in the House to effect those needed changes.

I am going to refer shamelessly to the work of my former colleague, Mr. Ed Broadbent, the former member for Ottawa Centre, because he did put together a very comprehensive package to address the kinds of problems that we have seen in the House over the last few years.

I would like to begin with financing. Bill C-2 does make some important changes to the financing laws. These changes have been around for a little while. Some were brought in by the previous government. However, unlike the previous government, we see some clear restrictions: lowering the contribution limits locally to $1,000, an additional $1,000 nationally and an additional $1,000 for leadership races. That is very important.

I would like to comment specifically on leadership races because that is missing from this bill. If we allow those who have financial wherewithal to take control and be the only ones who can run for the leaders of this nation, then we are buying into the kind of elitism that we see in American races. I believe that wealth should not be the basis upon which one seeks leadership. I would like to see a lowering of limits or a very clear limit set on leadership races so we can be assured that we have people with the genuine skills and determination to be our leaders rather than those with deep pockets.

I am also pleased to see the elimination of corporate and union contributions. We in the New Democratic Party certainly support that move. We believe it will provide a measure of fairness. I have run many times, both provincially and federally, and it was always a problem. My opponents were constantly able to draw on corporate resources that were well beyond anything that my constituents and my supporters could ever provide. This kind of limit is very important.

I also like the fact that loopholes have been closed in terms of trust funds. Unfortunately, much of this is too little too late. I think the ship has sailed on trust funds and I rather strongly suspect that those trust funds are now in the hands of riding associations. It would have been nice to have seen this much sooner.

One of the things that I do have some real concerns with is the elimination of cash contributions over $20. I would not want members to think that supporters in London--Fanshawe were so well-heeled that they were coming out with lots of cash. In fact, most contributions were made by cheque and they were modest but heartfelt contributions, and I appreciated every one of them.

A lot of seniors in my riding do not deal with credit cards, and money orders just add a lot of extra expense. They are hard-working people who deal in cash. Credit is an alien concept to them. I would not want them to be undermined in any way by this limitation.

I have a story about one supporter of mine, a wonderful man. He had not been on employment insurance. He had worked many years and contributed to the fund, but had never qualified because his work was sporadic. It was very important to him to get the kind of representation that would address this inequity. We know this inequity has been endemic in Canada for a very long time. He walked several miles from his home to my campaign office with $25. He wanted to show how important his participation was and how much he believed in fairness and in an opportunity to have his voice heard. For him, this was a great sacrifice.

Unfortunately, if we start to eliminate those kinds of very small contributions, we are going to lose out a great deal in being able to extend and allow our supporters of modest means to contribute and to feel positive about that.

I also want to talk about fixed election dates. It is very important that we do this. Mr. Broadbent was very clear about that. He said that prime ministers in governing parties should lose their control over when we voted, that the date should be every four years unless the government failed because of a confidence vote. This would add fairness because a prime minister should not be able to manipulate the vote. A prime minister should not be able to look at polling and decide not to call an election because things are not looking good. There should be a consistency to our elections for the various houses in this nation, and fixed election dates would go a long way in terms of doing that.

I would also like to talk a little today about electoral reform. This is sadly missing from the bill, and I think we suffer for that. As a community and as a Parliament, we do not have the kind of representation we should have in terms of our constituents and of the people who should be here in the House.

A few weeks ago, the women in our NDP caucus, and there are 12 or 41% of our caucus is female, of which we are very proud, challenged the other parties in regard to proportional representation and effecting the kind of electoral change that would allow people from visible minorities, from the disabled community and from first nations and women to participate fully in the life of our nation.

I throw this challenge out once again to the members of the House to look very closely at electoral reform, to bring in proportional representation, to add it to the bill and make it better in regard to the electorate's wishes being clearly reflected and respected in the representation of Parliament.

Third, I want to speak very briefly about the lack of floor-crossing legislation. I guess we could call it the Vancouver Kingsway hangover. I make reference to the donor who walked all those miles to my campaign office in order to bring his $25 contribution. Imagine if his member had, after a few weeks or months, seen fit to cross the floor--

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Oakville.