Debates of June 14th, 2006

Government Operations and Estimates

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the parliamentary secretary read the Auditor General’s report. On page 215 in chapter 7 on the acquisition of leased office space, she refers—the parliamentary secretary will surely remember—to the entire question of 800 Place Victoria in Montreal, where Public Works Canada did not issue a call for tenders.

According to its own guidelines, Public Works Canada directly negotiated a lease without a call for tenders. The results of this were bad—I will not go into the details because I think he knows very well, but I do want an answer from him—and cost taxpayers $4.6 million. That is not a detail, it is not trivial. We have this example and we have others. I think that this is one of the things—in a few minutes I will have an opportunity to speak—that leave a bad taste and one of the reasons why parliamentarians, as the citizens’ representatives, want to do introduce a rigorous competitive bidding process.

This is the second part of my question: we agree entirely that the Outaouais is very dear to us. We want it to benefit economically from employment and the occupation of purchased or leased space.

I would like a brief comment from the Secretary of State on the possibility of economic spinoffs for other regions as well and on the possibility of moving programs or offices in the future. I would like to know how he sees this.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I will deal with the second part first. We are open to opportunities to buy or lease buildings so that some departments could be moved to different regions of our country. If my colleague has some ideas in this regard, he can provide them to us. Minister Fortier and myself are prepared to discuss this and to have meetings with the member.

The first point of my colleague refers to Place Victoria, in Montreal. Yes, chapter 7 of the document mentioned shows that what happened is awful. Indeed, there was no public tendering in regard to this space. Sometimes, there are really some disasters, but there are also opportunities, real opportunities to get good value for taxpayers. This is what we will do.

We are not in favour of this motion, which would take away from the government a tool to manage taxpayers' money well in order to find spaces for the federal government in any part of the country. Sometimes, buildings are offered to the federal government. We can then negotiate a price that is reasonable to Canadian taxpayers. Sometimes, we get real value. Taking this tool away from the government is not in the interests of Quebeckers and Canadians.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Speaker, representing, as I do, a large northern region with high levels of unemployment, it is hard for me to agree with the principle that 75% of the jobs stay in Ottawa and 25% of the jobs are on the other side of the river when I am looking at regions that have almost no federal presence.

We hear discussions about the kinds of prices we are paying for buildings in the Ottawa region when we could get much better benefit for taxpayers. For example, in the town of Kirkland Lake where we have the veterans affairs building there is room for more government jobs. It is a hardrock mining town and federal jobs play an incredibly important role in that community.

It is the same in downtown Timmins where we fought to maintain a federal presence. It is not just a benefit to the taxpayers. It is a symbol. It is a commitment. It is saying that there is life outside of Babylon here on the Hill, that there is a country out there and that when we are making a commitment to move forward in planning for new federal expenditures, we should be looking at these regions. When the federal government has a presence in those regions, it creates stability and a workforce that is motivated. In my region there is a bilingual workforce.

I would advise the government to sell the building and move workers to Kirkland Lake and Timmins. If it did that it would have a great deal.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I agree with my colleague. I did my undergraduate studies in Prince George, British Columbia, which is a little bigger than Timmins. With a population of about 85,000 or 90,000, the federal government's presence in Prince George was profound in terms of economic development. I therefore understand what he is saying with regard to his own constituency. However, when we talk about the 25%:75% role, we are specifically dealing with the national capital region. It is not a nationwide principle.

I would say to my colleague from Timmins--James Bay that the argument he just made about the impact the federal government's presence and its buildings can have on communities is an important one, which is why his party should be supporting this government's position and opposing the motion.

The motion calls for the government to abandon the principle of unsolicited proposals. It is through unsolicited proposals from communities that allows the government the diversity to invest in the economic development of communities like his, which may need the support of the federal government and its presence to be an economic anchor.

If the member agrees with that principle, which I am sure he does as he is a well-spoken member who speaks forcefully and thoughtfully in this House, he should have a chat with his colleague from Parkdale--High Park who at the government operations committee voted against allowing unsolicited proposals which would have allowed the kind of economic development that he has described. The member for Parkdale-High Park voted for this motion which would take away the government's opportunity to purchase or lease buildings in different economic regions in order to get value for communities and for taxpayer dollars.

If he agrees with this principle, I encourage him to convince his party to support it because the member for Parkdale--High Park, the spokesperson of public works, does not agree with him.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I find that last comment to be absurd. If the federal government is serious about moving assets and moving jobs into regions, it can call for tenders for facilities within those regions.

The defence of the member that the government has to do that because it was done by other governments in the past, is contrary to the Conservatives' assertions that they were elected for change and calling for transparency. This motion calls for public tenders for public assets. It seems to me that is transparency.

If this unsolicited proposal to which he is referring is so good it would stand up to the scrutiny of a public tender and it would be the favoured tender. Perhaps there are other facilities out there that would have been a better value or would have better responded but if no search is done through pubic tenders, how are we ever to discover that?

If the government is serious about decentralization, I would encourage the member to have those tenders.

One thing I want to say on transparency is that one of the reasons we need this type of a motion is because of the actions of the government. The minister responsible for this action, who said that this was the best deal possible, is not even allowed to take questions from the members in this chamber, to answer to the Canadian public for his actions and to answer on how he is expending the Canadian dollar. Is he getting value? He may be but I cannot ask him that question. Nobody can. He sits in another house. He was appointed off the campaign bus to the Senate and into cabinet and expends billions and billions of dollars.

The government says that the people of Canada asked for change and they are getting nickels and dimes.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, with regard to the unsolicited proposals and this issue, of course we believe in public tendering and having an open competition on bids. That is the natural and default position of any government that truly believes in getting value for taxpayer dollars

The member for Wascana, who is a former public works minister himself, understands that to eliminate the opportunity for people to come to the federal government with an unsolicited proposal for an asset that is unique and may suit the needs of the government in whatever capacity, is not an option that should be taken away from the government.

The Liberals did this, as I said, with regard to the Food Inspection Agency, the Department of Foreign Affairs and dozens of other buildings and it received value for taxpayer dollars. It would be a mistake to take that opportunity off the table. With regard to the member from Timmins, that is precisely what I am talking about. I am talking about having more options on the table and allowing the professionals at the Department of Public Works, through the minister, to do their jobs and to get value for taxpayer dollars.

We cannot do that if we eliminate their options. We need to expand the options, leave them on the table and at the end of the day everything is transparent and people can decide where we are going.

With regard to Minister Fortier, the Prime Minister made the determination after the election campaign that the city of Montreal, the second largest city in Canada, should have representation at the cabinet table. If the member opposite does not agree that Montreal should have representation, he should say so, but I do not think he will.

Once the determination was made, the Prime Minister felt that Mr. Fortier should be available for questions in the Senate. If the member does not think that the 70-plus Liberals sitting in the Senate can hold the Minister of Public Works accountable, then he should have said that this morning in their caucus meeting and told them all to resign.

The Minister of Public Works is available every day for question period over at the Senate and is available for accountability. He is also available to the public. He has done more in his Department of Public Works in the four months that he has been there than the Liberals did in the past 13 years.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I must inform you that I will be splitting my time with my colleague from Gatineau.

For the benefit of those who are listening to us, I will take a few seconds to read the motion that was adopted in committee and that is the subject of the report now before us:

That the committee reports to the House that it recommends that the acquisition by purchase or lease of any significant property, such as the former JDS Uniphase campus in Ottawa, by the Government of Canada for use by its departments and agencies be the result of a competitive public call for tender process.

I think it is important to take the time to describe the context in which this motion was presented. My Liberal colleague who launched this debate chose to focus on the issue of the JDS Uniphase campus. I will use a different approach even though I will be speaking to this issue later on.

The Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates had the opportunity to invite various witnesses to appear before it at its recent meetings concerning the study, by the committee, of the 2006 report of the Auditor General to the House of Commons.

I should mention that we had the pleasure and the privilege to hear testimony from Mrs. Sheila Fraser on three occasions, as well as testimony from officials from various departments and agencies.

The committee examined chapters 7, 4 and 1 of the report, which cover the acquisition of leased office space, the Canadian Firearms Program and managing government: financial information, respectively.

The study of these three chapters of the 2006 Report of the Auditor General brought to light real problems with the management of the public purse. I just mentioned one such problem when I asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services a question a few minutes ago.

Another disturbing problem revealed in chapter 7 relates to the fact that the government's funding mechanisms can significantly preclude selection of the most cost-effective option. For the people who are watching, it is amazing to think such a thing. What we are talking about is financial management of public assets.

What can and should the government do to manage taxpayers' money as effectively as possible? I am sure that, as parliamentarians, we are all driven by that desire.

What can and should the government do to make the best possible use of every dollar that comes out of the pockets of the people to whom the government is accountable?

How can and should the government be accountable for this use of public money and for the actions it takes and the choices it makes?

The government is accountable to Parliament, to the members of Parliament, who humbly and collectively represent the people of Canada.

The Auditor General describes this accountability much better than I can, which will surprise no one. On page 3 of her report, she says, and I quote:

As Parliament's auditor, the Office of the Auditor General plays an important role in promoting government accountability and well-managed public administration in Canada. Our performance audits provide parliamentarians with fact-based information they can rely on in their oversight of government spending and performance on behalf of Canadians.

This means that the government must have a method, a system of governance where best practices apply not only to the government's actions, but to its intent as well, the goal being to achieve the utmost transparency and probity. That is what is being referred to here when committee members ask that the acquisition by purchase or lease of property by the government be the result of a competitive public call for tenders process.

First, it is even more crucial because Public Works and Government Services manages over 6 million square metres of space, of which 52% belongs to the government, 41% is rented and 7% is lease-optioned. Second, this same department has fiduciary responsibility for $3 billion a year in real estate, and thirdly, it signs 500 leases a year. I would also point out that Public Works and Government Services manages offices in 1,900 buildings, of which only 250 belong to the government.

This represents a tremendous amount of spending power and, in my opinion, its duty of accountability is equally significant, which is why it is very important to be as transparent as humanly possible. Speaking of transparency, I would like to express regret for the absence of the Minister of Public Works and Government Services during such a debate, since he was not elected as a member of this House. I will say no more on that.

Speaking of responsibilities, the responsibility for ideal governance does not end there. There is also the issue of fairness. The tendering process allows potential bidders to be up to date and aware that the government happens to be looking for space. The process thus ensures that competitive offers are submitted so that, in the end, the best value is obtained—for whom? for taxpayers—in order for this reality to be considered and obtained.

The tendering process must also avoid giving rise to or maintaining the perception of favouritism and privileges, even if unfounded.

Fairness also means that the government must avoid giving the impression that it prefers one developer, one owner or one company over another. In the greater national capital region, fairness also means taking into consideration bids from both sides of the river so that the 25:75 rule—deemed by the secretary general to be accepted by the Conservative government —may be respected and in order to enable Quebec to receive, as does Ontario, its share of direct economic benefits arising from property leased, purchased or obtained through lease options, as well as jobs. My colleague from Gatineau will undoubtedly speak further about this in a few minutes.

Entrepreneurs, developers, owners must be apprised of the government's realty needs. They must have information that is complete, accessible and open in order to bid.

The Conservative government, which tabled Bill C-2, almost boasts about reinventing the concept of responsibility when it declares that accountability is one of its major priorities and, I quote from page 5 of The Budget in Brief:

A core priority of the Government is to improve the accountability and transparency of government operations to Canadians.

If the Conservative government is truly guided by the value of transparency and wishes to convince the public of this, it has a golden opportunity to do so by adopting the report of the Standing Committee on Governmental Operations and Estimates and implementing it.

In closing I will quote, as I did in my opening remarks, the Auditor General:

[Public Works and Government Services Canada] needs complete, accurate, and timely information to support good decision making, strategic management, and risk management. The Department's commitment to achieve the government's cost-reduction goal makes strong management practices even more vital for the Branch.

One of these strong management practices is the use of the process known as calling for tenders, as recommended by the majority of the committee members.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for her speech, which I listened to carefully.

I have a very simple question for the hon. member. Does the hon. member think that the JDS Uniphase case and the government's conduct in that case are part of a trend in accountability? She mentioned Bill C-2, which aims to increase accountability. In my opinion, all parliamentarians are working together to that end. She said that the purpose of the bill was to achieve greater transparency.

Does the hon. member think that the JDS Uniphase case, which comes on the heels of the announcement by the defence minister that the government intends to purchase aircraft from the United States for $3.2 billion, is part of a trend that Canadians should monitor more closely?

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to answer my colleague's question, but I will not make any assumptions or impugn the motives of any government.

The Bloc's goal and my goal as a member of a committee and as a parliamentarian is to ensure that situations where disturbing events appear to be developing are condemned. That was the case with the example we are discussing.

Earlier, I asked a question about 800 Place Victoria, where an additional $4.6 million was spent without a public tendering process, using the guideline Public Works Canada has. These are disturbing events that must be condemned. That is why most of the members of the committee supported this motion in committee. We are presenting it today in order to make it a recommendation so that the government will act on it. What we want is that, in future, there is never any risk of a lack of probity or transparency.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I commend the member for Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques for her excellent speech.

For a government, everything is based of the tendering process. I have worked long enough in that kind of structure to know that, when there is no tendering for the big picture and for the smallest details of these projects, costs rise astronomically.

With my colleague, I would like to look at the alternative to tendering. What would it be? Traditionally, it is always the tendering process that ensures that we can maintain our prices. What might happen in the case where there was no tendering? How could we control prices?

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I do not see any alternative. I believe the most transparent way to be accountable to the people is to ensure that the information is available to all those who are interested.

Today, this is done through systems on the Internet. We must absolutely avoid cases of cronyism. The risks are very harmful and the danger is great. As I said earlier, what is important to us is that we have economic benefits in our regions—and I am speaking for members of this House, but especially for people from Quebec—and that we have benefits in the national capital region, on both sides of the Ottawa River. We deserve no less.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I must say today that the situation that prompted this motion may have come as a surprise to a lot of people, but it did not surprise me or the people in my riding. Once again, the government is trying to use taxpayers' money to reward friends of the new regime. After a few short months in power, good old Liberal habits seem to have won out over the accountability and transparency that the Conservative government wants to bring in.

The government is getting ready to pay $224 million over the next 25 years to Minto Developments Inc. to lease office space in the JDS Uniphase building in Ottawa, without a public tendering process. Minto bought the building last June for $30 million. One day, perhaps, the Minister of Public Works and Government Services will explain to us what logic told him that this was a good deal, but as you know, the minister was not elected by the people and unfortunately does not sit in the House of Commons.

Let us not forget that this government campaigned on a platform of accountability and transparency. When we look at the connection between Minto and Fred Doucet and the connection between Mr. Doucet and the current government, we can understand the transaction more easily. In 2003, Fred Doucet was a key member of the leadership campaign strategy committee of the current Minister of Foreign Affairs. Now things are making more sense. Let us not forget that this government campaigned on a platform of accountability and transparency. Mr. Doucet is the middleman between Minto and the government. I wonder what my Quebec colleagues who were elected under the Conservative banner think about this attitude.

What does the Minister of Transport think? These people promised major changes in how the country is governed. They promised accountability and transparency to the people of Quebec. Where are accountability and transparency when the government is going to spend more than $600 million on a building worth $30 million? Where is accountability when the government is going to pay $23 million a year in rent for a building worth $30 million?

Try offering any Canadian the opportunity to rent a house for $75,000 per year instead of buying it for $100,000. What do you think the response would be? The Minister of Public Works and Government Services said, “I'll take it”. Why? We would have to be in the Senate to know the answer to that. We would have to be sitting in the Senate to ask that question.

What do Conservative members from Quebec—who stood to vote against their fellow citizens on the fuel price issue last week—think? Do they represent Quebec in the government, or do they represent the government in Quebec? They condemned Liberal cronyism, so how can they now accept the Conservative variety?

Irony of ironies. Not so very long ago, the Liberals perfected the art of cronyism, and now they are condemning the Conservatives for practising it. Earlier on, the Liberal member for Hull—Aylmer condemned Conservative cronyism, never mind the fact that in his six years on the government bench, not once did he rise to condemn Liberal corruption and scandal. That is the kind of conduct that is giving cynicism license to run rampant among Quebeckers.

The saddest part of this story is their contempt for the Outaouais region. In 1984, the Liberals and the Conservatives promised to resolve the issue of locating 25% of public service jobs in the Outaouais and 75% in Ottawa. It is now 21 years later, and nothing has changed. During the last campaign, the Minister of Transport promised to use his position to help the region. Last week he backed away from the Canadian Museum of Science and Technology issue and tried to pretend he had never promised the people of the Outaouais anything. Still nothing has been done. This government has not proposed anything to rectify the job distribution situation.

And yet we have a minister in the region. This should give the Outaouais some prestige, but there is still nothing. I invite the Minister of Transport to drop the fine speeches and deliver the goods to the Outaouais.

It is quite ironic to see, again this time, our colleague from Hull—Aylmer huffing and puffing about the 25-75 distribution. He forgot to mention that during his six years in government he did nothing tangible about this except to put forward a single motion on November 10, 2005, some 18 days before the last federal election. It took him four elections and six years and seeing the Bloc Québécois in his rear view mirror to start getting interested in his riding and the Outaouais in this matter at the end of the Liberal cronyism mandate.

Where was my colleague during the last election campaign, the night offices were being moved from the Hull sector in his riding of Hull—Aylmer to the Vanier sector in the City of Ottawa? You have to want to see this issue through to get anything done. The hon. member for Hull—Aylmer had six years to defend the Outaouais to his government. If he had done his job, like the public expected him to, he could not now denounce this situation because in speaking out against the 25-75 problem, he is speaking out against himself for not being equal to the task. Between 2000 and 2006, only 21.4% of the jobs in the national capital region were in the Outaouais. That is still far from 25%.

I believe the public expects better from a government that promised responsibility and transparency. The government has a chance to kill two birds with one stone by agreeing to take a step in the right direction in the matter of distributing public service jobs and showing true responsibility and true transparency.

Therefore, I invite the President of the Treasury Board and the Minister of Public Works and Government Services to ensure that the leasing of office space is always done through a public tender process. It is a basic rule of transparency. On this subject, I would ask the minister responsible for Quebec, who is from my region, to look closely, with his colleague from Treasury Board, at the issue of public service jobs on the Quebec side of the Ottawa river. Previous governments introduced a policy of equity between the two shores. But there is a serious shortfall on one side that must be corrected, and I invite the government to propose a plan to restore the proper balance. I am prepared to work in a constructive manner, putting all partisanship aside, to correct this situation once and for all. I will see to it that members from the Outaouais region work with the Bloc Québécois for this particular region of Quebec.

[James Moore, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services and Minister for the Pacific Gateway and the Vancouver-Whistler Olympics]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the speech of my colleague from Gatineau, but unfortunately he does not have the faintest idea what he is talking about. He condemns a JDS Uniphase-Minto deal with the federal government that has not been finalized. He has not read it and he knows nothing about it, yet he condemns it.

He mentioned the name Fred Doucet, the deal and one newspaper story. The Minister of Public Works has never met Fred Doucet on this file. I have never met this man in my life. Yet somehow my colleague from Gatineau claims that this man is a mastermind behind this deal. What absolute absurdity.

[An hon. member]

He is a lobbyist.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

He may be a registered lobbyist, but he has not lobbied the federal government with regard to this file. My colleague from Gatineau says that somehow this is some conspiracy.

With regard to the principle of the motion at stake, my colleague, who replaced Françoise Boivin as the member of Parliament for Gatineau, says that he is here to defend the interests of Gatineau. The hon. member should know about the Zellers building in his own constituency, which was leased by the federal government. The property was purchased by the Crown for $3 million. It was done so at more than 30% below its assessed value of $4.3 million. It was done so through an unsolicited proposal, the very thing my colleague is saying that the federal government should back out of doing.

If he is here to defend his constituents in Gatineau, why is he condemning the very process that brought jobs, opportunity and investment to his riding? Members of Parliament should not be in the business of supporting ideas that would limit opportunities for their own constituency.

I would urge my colleague opposite to sit down and chat with the member for Wascana, the member for Kings—Hants, the member for Sudbury, all former public works ministers from--

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

I am sorry I cannot let the hon. member go on forever. We only have five minutes and we have other questions.

The hon. member for Gatineau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first, I would like to say to the parliamentary secretary that, during our meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, on Thursday, June 8, 2006--not too long ago—an official mentioned that he had met with Mr. Fred Doucet in regard to public accounts. If the parliamentary secretary wants his name, I can give it to him later.

The issue of tendering is an issue of transparency. I find it shocking that a parliamentary secretary does not tender and does not require that Public Works and Government Services Canada always tenders, to ensure that we get the best price possible, that we do not spend taxpayers' money needlessly and that all Quebeckers and Canadians have a chance to take part in the tendering process of the department, the agency or the crown corporation that needs space.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Speaker, once again I will rise to say how surreal I find this discussion, coming from an area along the James Bay coast where I have 21 people living in houses on the first nations. We cannot make any kind of moves or any first nations development without tender process after tender process, capital study after capital study. It seems the federal government's main job in these communities is to block development, and it is always speaking of accountability.

We are talking about a real estate deal of $30 million that might be flipped to $300 million or $600 million. My God, that money spent on first nations across Canada would turn some of these terrible sinkholes of human misery into livable places. Yet we are gong to spend that on one building. To even talk about the issue is scandalous.

I came back from Kashechewan, just before the flood, for the funeral of four year old Trianna Martin who died in a house fire in a community for which the federal government will not pay any fire service, and it is its responsibility.

Why do we have this demand on all our isolated first nations for tendering processes for the smallest project and a project of this size can go through the system without any tendering at all?

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I first want to specify that the 25%:75% issue concerns the federal capital region.

If I am not mistaken, there are about 450,000 public servants across Canada and 110,000 here in the region. When we talk about the 25/75, it applies to these 110,000 public servants, and not to the other 340,000.

Let us get back to the tender issue. At the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, last Thursday, officials said that they had a free hand to tender or not, based on their knowledge of the real estate market. This is outrageous. I support what my NDP collegue said: in this regard, the Conservatives are no better than the Liberals.

[The Deputy Speaker, NDP, Bill Blaikie]

It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley, the Environment; the hon. member for West Nova, Passports.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is with some sadness, quite frankly, that we have to debate this issue, because of the scope of the issue and the idea, as we heard from my friend on the other side, that we are looking at a deal that has not been signed or completed. The deal has not been done, although my understanding is that the deal will be done, possibly as of tomorrow, so it is important that we talk about this issue and try to shine some light on the facts.

I am going to stick to the facts as I know them and as they have been presented. Sadly, this issue has not been dealt with through transparency but through the opaqueness of the brown envelope I received, which I used to bring this issue to Parliament and to Canadians. That is not the way it should be done.

In fact, I have just come from the committee dealing with Bill C-2, the accountability act. One thing we have proposed for Bill C-2 is to deal with the disclosure of information on contracts to make sure that Canadians receive value for the money they are spending and investing. We want to hear more than “trust us, just wait, the deal isn't signed yet”. We want to hear more than “when the deal is signed you'll all be happy with it”.

Canadians want the people they elected to represent them to be able to hold the government to account. Clearly this is not going happen when we are told time and time again when this subject is raised in the House, and I did raise it, that we should trust the government, that the deal has not been signed, and that when it is we will be happy with it. I am sorry, but I am from Missouri and I want to see the facts.

We have heard that the government is in talks or having discussions. I trust the member when he says the deal has not been signed, so we are in discussions, and what are the facts as we know them?

One fact is that JDS Uniphase, which was hit severely by the downturn in the high tech sector in the local Ottawa economy, had surplus land. JDS Uniphase had its surplus campus on Merivale Road. The company went to market to sell its property.

Initially, JDS Uniphase spoke with the former government and offered the property to the Department of National Defence. We believe the price tag was somewhere around $30 million. What we then found out was that the Department of National Defence said at the time that it was interested. There were some talks. In the end, the department turned down JDS.

What followed was that Minto Developments bought the land for $30 million, following which Minto entered into talks with the former Liberal government to sell the building to the government for what we now know turned out to be over $600 million over 25 years with a lease to buy. I will come back to that in a minute and will reference what the Auditor General thinks about those kinds of deals.

Here we are now with a new government that is continuing the talks and again says “just trust us”, that the government will tell us it is a good deal.

However, my constituents and the 4,500 people on the waiting list for affordable housing, for instance, would love to see just a couple of million dollars invested in affordable housing. The NDP has been asking for affordable housing. My party did make some changes to the budget last spring to make sure that there would be investments in affordable housing in our communities, so that people could see money invested in their own communities. My colleague from northern Ontario spoke about the need for investments there.

Clearly the fact that we have over $600 million to be spent over 25 years on a lease to buy needs a lot of examination and we need answers to a lot of questions that we have put forward.

Those are the facts. That is the trajectory.

I would have to add, with respect, that the previous government and the present government have something in common when it comes to this deal. Not only are they both part and parcel on this deal, but they also managed to receive over $70,000 from Minto Developments. Did they break any rules? No. Is it against the law? No, but it gives one pause for cause.

[An hon. member]

Did the member for Eglinton--Lawrence get any of that?

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I am not sure if he was on the list, but perhaps. Maybe the kids at Minto.

Let us look at how much money this developer invested, we will say, in the political parties. Then we turn around and we have a developer pick up, scoop up, a property for $30 million and say, “Hi, would you like to buy it for $625 million over 25 years?” I have to say that I do not criticize Minto Developments for that. We have to give them credit. If they can make that kind of money, the shareholders and the family firm will be very happy. It will be a good year for them.

We have to examine it and make sure that it sees the light that Canadians want illuminating it. I am going to go over a couple of the questions that I put to the government. Perhaps it is Waiting for Godot on these answers, and we know what happens there, where Godot never comes, but I am optimistic that we will eventually hear. Here are the questions I put to the government.

What financial details have gone to Treasury Board to support the agreement in principle? It is a very straightforward question.

I put a second question forward. Was the search for a lease agreement publicly tendered? I think we know the answer to that, but it is important to have it for the record.

What are the details of the tendering process for the relocation of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police headquarters from 1200 Vanier Parkway?

Next, what are the details of the analysis for all of the options considered by public works prior to the agreement in principle with Minto Developments?

Last, was the City of Ottawa's 2001 policy of stimulating growth by encouraging the location of future federal workplaces near transitway stations, giving particular consideration to the east end of the city, considered in this decision? I have to say that this is not my riding. This is something I am putting forward because this was a consensus of smart growth that the City of Ottawa put forward to make sure that we would have some balance in our development.

I think those questions deserve answers. They deserve answers before the deal is announced. I think we need to have more transparency, particularly when we are talking about this amount of money. Part of the evidence that was brought forward to me was that there was to be a $5 million down payment to Minto Developments just to be able to discuss the deal. I am wondering if that money was exchanged. What happens if we do not have a deal? They keep the money, I presume.

Again, this is a shady deal. I have spoken to members of the RCMP, as recently as last weekend. I was at a community event and had the opportunity to speak to some RCMP members. I asked them what they thought about this. They were not keen. I dare say that they have not been consulted about this. We are talking about a workplace that is fairly central to the east, in the riding of my colleague from Ottawa—Vanier. We are talking about moving it to the other side of the city.

I think this is important these days when we are looking at planning and future proposals: we might want to consider talking to the men and women who work there. It means that we are talking about disruption of life. The fact is that their lives will be affected. Does it make sense for them, not just in the community but from a safety point of view? Does it make sense to consolidate all of those services in one area? I do not know. Maybe it does and maybe it does not, but that kind of thought process has not been put into play here. That is an issue of safety.

I have to say that there is another issue when we look at how much land is available. Recently, Algonquin College by the Queensway, which my colleague from Ottawa—Vanier will know, is available. Was that a parcel of land that has been known as being available for quite a while? Was it considered? What is the inventory of all the public holdings? Let us have a full analysis of what the options are. Again, we do not know. Maybe that has been discussed, but it has been kept from members of Parliament and therefore kept from Canadians.

The Auditor General recently referenced the fact that there have been some rather ill-informed, and some would say dubious, kinds of arrangements made with a lease to buy. What happens in these arrangements is that when one actually buys a piece of property it is possible to put off the books the money one would normally spend at the front end. It is possible to string it out over a period of time, much like what is done by many of the P3 operations we are seeing. What happens is that we pay for the building four or five times when we could have bought it once.

This arrangement is similar to that. In other words, would we rather own a home or rent? I know that most people would love to own their own homes. What the government is deciding to do is rent, the landlord in this case being Minto Developments, and we will pay for the building hundreds of times over before we own it. It does not make sense. The men and women who do their accounting at the kitchen table would not sign off on a deal like this. They would be very disgusted that this kind of financing is going on in this government or any other government.

In summary, what we need to do is make sure this does not happen again. We need to make sure there is some transparency, understanding that when there are competitive bids that process can be honoured, so there is no tipping, so to speak, of one company over another. It is done all the time.

We need to have competitive bidding. We need to make sure that we do not get into lease to buy arrangements. We need to make sure that we take out of the arrangement those who have given to political parties, particularly as we have found out that more than $70,000 was given to both the Conservative Party and the Liberal Party by the developer. We need to make sure that the government is taking into account all of its holdings. We need to make sure the government is looking at the local municipality, in this case Ottawa, and is looking at its designs, its plans and its future. That is not being done here.

Finally, I must say that if this is the first test of the government for transparency and accountability, as a former teacher I have to say that it would get an F.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate the hon. member for Ottawa Centre on his excellent speech.

Nonetheless, I would like him to comment on the following: we are still talking about calls for tender, but I think there is a word missing. The important word being left out is “public”. We are talking about calls for public tender: these words go together. When a government, a public agency, goes to tender it is a call for public tenders. This means that documents are made available and that anyone can consult them and submit an offer, provided they include the required fee.

The hon. member is absolutely right about everything he said. Nonetheless, in his view, can the current process lead to a call for public tenders?

I would also like him to comment on what the governing party is saying. Earlier, we heard the excuse that things could not be discussed in public, because they were working on an agreement. Since they were working on an agreement, they could not discuss it publicly.

That strikes me as wrong. When there is a call for public tenders, documents are made available and things are prepared well in advance. I totally agree with that.

I would also like my colleague to address the preliminary steps: establish the need, which is public; establish who will be the key players; establish who will do what. Every aspect—the key players, the engineers, those who will build the building or renovate it if it already exists—requires a call for tenders.

Could my colleague comment on this?

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I touched on this question at the beginning of my comments when I talked about Bill C-2 and what the NDP has proposed. I will read from our own NDP proposal, “The head of a government institution” or an agent of the government “shall not...refuse to disclose a record or a part thereof if that record or part contains...details of a contract or a bid for a contract with a government institution.

When the member talks about a public tender, he is quite right. The criteria need to be public so that people can see what it is about and make sure it is not a backroom deal. Those who are in the business of land sale and have assets will have not only equal opportunity but equal knowledge, which is so critical.

I have to say, though, that the other part of this equation that is missing is the minister responsible. That has been more than frustrating. He has been a phantom minister. When we ask a question, there is no one there.

Not only do we have a process that does not allow us to have a window in with regard to the public disclosure piece or the fact that this should be a public tendering, we cannot even ask the minister the question because he is down the hall. That door, as they say in Spanish, is cerrado. It is closed. We are not allowed in.