House of Commons Hansard #50 of the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was federal.

Topics

Emergency Management ActGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

The hon. member for Surrey North had eight minutes left in her speech, but I think we will move on to the next speaker.

The hon. member for Northumberland—Quinte West.

Emergency Management ActGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise to express my support for the speedy passage of Bill C-12, which would create a modern and effective emergency management act.

Like all Canadians, I am concerned by the prospect of a serious and far-reaching emergency, a threat to public health, for instance, like the world now faces from an avian influenza virus, or an attack on our mass transit system, such as those suffered by the people of London and Madrid. These are frightening scenarios, but we cannot afford to ignore them or to try to hide from them.

I am persuaded that the proposed new statutory framework would strengthen the capacity of the Government of Canada to work with partners in a way that would enhance the safety of Canadians in the face of all types of hazards, whether natural or intentional.

For all the heartbreak caused by the September 11 tragedy in the United States, we can at least say that countries like Canada drew important lessons from it. As a result of these sad events, Canada has taken many steps to better safeguard the lives, health and property of Canadians. For example, an all hazards emergency response system and the Government Operations Centre now provide round the clock monitoring and coordination in the event of an emergency.

In 2003, the outbreak of SARS put Canada's comprehensive emergency response capabilities to the test. Gaps and inadequacies became apparent. According to a study by the pre-eminent health care expert Dr. David Naylor, better cooperation and collaboration among jurisdictions involved in this emergency would have resulted in more seamless and effective interventions. Professor Naylor also called for better communication among officials and with the Canadian public.

This was sound advice for SARS and for other emergencies as well. In the event of a pandemic, for instance, the Canadian pandemic influenza plan, CPIP, would kick into action. This is a robust plan that provides sound technical and public health advice and has been praised by the World Health Organization as the first of its kind anywhere.

A strategy that builds on the CPIP is also required to address essential elements such as the protection of critical infrastructure, business continuity for government and the private sector, and economic and security considerations.

At this time, I would like to mention that I will be splitting my time with the member for Edmonton Centre.

To continue, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada, the Public Health Agency of Canada and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency are co-chairing a deputy ministers' committee on pandemic and avian influenza planning. This committee is leading the coordination of efforts of 20 departments and agencies.

The Government of Canada is working toward raising Canada's level of preparedness for an avian and pandemic influenza. The strategy will highlight the need for a coordinated response across all levels of government, with international partners and key stakeholders, to help minimize the impact of an influenza pandemic on Canada.

In 2005, with the devastating effects of hurricane Katrina, Canada worked with the United States to provide relief for victims in more than one area. Canadians expect all levels of government to act together in responding to emergencies.

Let me give another example of this collaborative approach. An intelligence-sharing network has been put in place by Canada's Department of Transport, involving all the major rail and urban transit systems in our country. When the subway system in London was bombed by terrorists last July, this network kicked in. Information from relevant sources was being shared from the earliest possible moment with rail and mass transit across the country. As a result, security was immediately heightened within the Toronto transit system and elsewhere in Canada.

Rail and urban transit security will rely heavily on law enforcement and security information. To that end, the Government of Canada has initiated work to improve the readiness of Canada's urban transportation sector to respond rapidly to emergencies and to develop effective emergency plans. In times of crisis, it is essential that activities be coordinated. Our resources and expertise must be managed and deployed in the most effective way.

While always respecting the jurisdiction of all partners, the federal government has the experience, expertise and the necessary authority so that all players in an emergency have the information and resources they need to safeguard the well-being of Canadians, which brings me to the legislation before us.

The emergency management act proposed under Bill C-12 would further strengthen and integrate Canada's collective capacity to defend against all types of disasters and emergencies. Here is why.

The proposed statutory framework would put the public safety and emergency preparedness minister in a clear and unequivocal coordinating role for the Government of Canada. In particular, Bill C-12 sets out his authority. It also sets out his responsibility to coordinate all activities at the federal level and the spearhead interaction with the provincial, territorial and international emergency management authorities. The proposed law also provides for an integrated and coherent approach to emergency management across the Government of Canada through the application of standardized emergency management planning principles.

Another aspect of the proposed act, which I believe merits attention, relates to the protection of critical infrastructure. I am referring to health related installations such as hospitals, clinics, blood supply facilities, labs and pharmaceutical companies. I am also talking about transportation related infrastructure for rail, air, marine and surface vehicles, including those for mass transit.

There are many other sectors including finance, energy, food and agriculture, but to mention just one more, think only of the security of information and communications technologies, the computer systems that play a pivotal role in every facet of society. The bill before us would make federal ministers responsible for identifying risks to the critical infrastructure related to their portfolios and for incorporating these considerations into their emergency management plans.

People do not generally want to contemplate the prospects of serious emergency, like a bombing in our urban core or a pandemic flu outbreak, which the World Health Organization predicts could kill millions of people around the world. However, the government has no choice. It must think of such scenarios. It must accept that the threats are real and put in place the plans that would help Canadians pull through. The bill would enhance the federal government's ability to act as a collective force against modern threats.

For that reason, I urge my hon. colleagues to speed the bill through the legislative process.

Emergency Management ActGovernment Orders

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Mr. Speaker, a lot of the emergency response teams really deal with municipalities, whether they be fire, ambulance, police, et cetera. The bill talks about coordinating activities of government institutions relating to emergency management with those of the provinces and those of the local authorities.

I want it clarified whether the local authorities include municipalities and, if so, what kind of process is in place to do the coordination.

The other thing is that subclause 4.(1)(j) of the bill also talks about providing financial assistance to a province. However, my understanding is that a lot of these emergency response teams, such as the fire department, is 100% funded by local municipalities and not necessarily through the province. The subclause says that financial assistance to the province would only be provided when the province requested assistance. In the case of, say, the fire department, it may not come from the province. What if immediate assistance is required from agencies that are connected only through the local municipality?

The other concern I have is on the public health side. A lot of public health departments in urban centres, for example, are strapped in terms of their funding and have been unable to translate a lot of the material. In big urban centres such as Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal, a lot of information needs to be translated into different languages if there is an emergency. This is critically important in order to reach all our residents, whether they speak English, French or another language, if unilingual that way, so they can immediately get the kind of information that is critically important.

Does the definition of local authorities really connect with municipalities and the financial arrangements?

Emergency Management ActGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am quite familiar with the procedures regarding emergency measures and those ancillary items. In my prior occupation as a police officer I was involved in emergency planning in the municipalities in which I served and in particular in Northumberland where we managed all levels of emergency response to situations and how those agencies integrated their efforts.

If we look at the current bill before the House, we will find that the federal government works in conjunction with its provincial and municipal partners upon request, and only upon request, and will respond directly to the urgency at hand.

The hon. member mentioned a particular translation into languages, et cetera. Of course the federal government would endeavour to work with all parties, municipalities as well as the provinces, to ensure that the appropriate authorities and instances that the government would be required to assist in would be addressed.

I bring her attention back to my address before the House when I mentioned the subway bombing in London and how quickly the Government of Canada was able to bring that kind of information to heighten the emergency preparedness intelligence network throughout Canada, in particular those in our mass transit systems, so they could take the appropriate action to secure the safety of the people using their services.

Those items have been addressed. Quite frankly, we are looking for a seamless integration, and Bill C-12 does that.

Emergency Management ActGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Wellington—Halton Hills Ontario

Conservative

Michael Chong ConservativePresident of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Northumberland—Quinte West for all his work on this bill. As a former Ontario Provincial Police officer, he obviously has a lot of expertise in this area. There is a lot of expertise in this area in our caucus. The hon. member for Edmonton Centre is a former member of the Canadian armed forces. He also brings a lot of expertise to this area.

My question concerns natural disasters. Last summer a tornado came through Wellington county. It affected two townships, the townships of Mapleton and Centre Wellington. Local citizens like Don Vallery, Mayor Spicer of Central Wellington and Mayor Green of Mapleton responded very capably. Nevertheless concerns were brought to my attention from citizens like Richard Ross, who felt that governments could be better coordinated and better able to respond to these things, especially if these natural disasters were of a larger nature.

My question for the member for Northumberland—Quinte West is this. How does the bill strengthen the Government of Canada's ability to respond to natural disasters?

Emergency Management ActGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

Mr. Speaker, the bill coordinates all federal government agencies in order to provide the services that each community and province needs. There would be an integrated approach from a central location to provide the services that were needed.

I think back to the ice storm, which was quite a large disaster for our country. It involved more than two provinces, if I remember correctly. It required the federal government, through the armed forces and numerous other federal agencies, to get involved. This bill, in a larger catastrophe ice storm scenario, especially if it were interprovincial in nature, would provide for a more seamless and integrated approach in order to provide to municipalities and provinces the kind of assistance they would need with less bureaucratic hoops to jump through.

The bill is designed to provide a more seamless federal government approach to emergency management to ensure there is one central location with which to access all the needed assistance.

Emergency Management ActGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I thank the House for the opportunity to join my colleagues in support of this very important legislation.

Bill C-12 explains and confirms the federal government's leadership role in coordinating major emergency response measures. Once adopted, the Emergency Management Act will enable Canada's preparedness and ability to respond to emergencies to keep pace with evolving threats. My honourable colleagues have already highlighted some of the changes included in the bill before us.

That said, allow me to elaborate on one particular aspect of the bill: the protection of critical infrastructure in Canada and the importance of physical and technological infrastructure to national security.

When we speak of infrastructure, we tend to think of roads, bridges and buses, but in this modern era the term has come to mean much more. Indeed, a long list of installations and services has become essential to our economy and our way of life. The wilful or accidental destruction or compromise of this critical infrastructure constitutes a genuine emergency. What is more is that the interdependent nature of our critical infrastructure means that an attack in one sector can have serious and cascading impacts on others.

In the energy field, for instance, we think of electrical power utilities, grids, natural gas and oil production, transmission systems and nuclear power plants. In the health sector we are talking about hospitals, clinics, blood supply facilities, laboratories and drug manufacturing plants. There is the agricultural and food industry as well from crops to distribution. We need clean drinking water and waste water management facilities.

Transportation is about roads and highways, but it is also about air, rail and marine modes of transport, both passenger travel and freight. Defence and chemical industry based manufacturing is another critical factor, which also makes it a potential target for sabotage or terrorism. The same can be said for some government services and installations, particularly monuments and other sites of key national significance. We also need to protect safety related facilities such as hazardous material depots.

Another vital sector of infrastructure involves information and communications technology. This includes Canada's sophisticated telecommunications and broadcasting systems as well as computers and networks.

The Emergency Preparedness Act, which still governs our emergency management activities, was passed in 1988. Few Canadians even had home computers then, let alone Internet access, email, wireless hand-held devices and all the electronic conveniences that we take for granted today and, frankly, curse sometimes.

Information and communications technologies are more than just a convenience. They have become the backbone of our contemporary society, supporting every other piece of infrastructure. Unfortunately, this digital backbone can be sensitive to disruption either through sabotage, accidents or natural events. The consequences can be calamitous. We need only think of the eastern Canada-western Quebec ice storm of 1998, the Ontario northeastern U.S. power blackout of 2003 and hacker attacks that have unleashed their disruptive viruses or worms across the Internet.

We recovered from those setbacks and learned from each of them. One of the things we learned was the paramount importance of strengthening the security and integrity of Canada's infrastructure, both the physical and the electronic. That is where the proposed emergency management act comes in.

Under the proposal before us, the legislation would make federal ministers responsible for identifying risks to critical infrastructure within their jurisdictions. Once the risks are identified, ministers would be obliged to prepare, maintain, test and implement emergency plans to address those risks. The plans would set out how each federal department would continue to operate in an emergency. They would also specify measures to assist the provinces and territories at the request, and by extension, municipalities and other authorities.

Given the broad range of installations and services that we now consider critical, it is clear that emergency planning poses a significant challenge. What is more, an estimated 85% of Canada's critical infrastructure is owned or operated by the private sector. How does the government coordinate so many players, not all of them under federal authority?

Information sharing is essential to public safety. As the majority of critical infrastructure is owned by the private sector, it is important that there is a willingness to share information on threats and vulnerabilities. Take for instance the case of international crossings. Emergency planners need to know where a particular facility may be vulnerable to infiltration by a saboteur or a hacker. Perhaps it is a structural weakness that might not withstand a powerful earthquake or bomb. Operators have been perhaps naturally reluctant to share vulnerability assessments and other confidential third party information with governments because they do not believe that existing legislation is sufficient for its protection. Bill C-12 proposes to amend the Access to Information Act to explicitly protect this type of sensitive information.

Bill C-12 brings much-needed updates to our current emergency management legislation.

First of all, it recognizes the importance of critical infrastructure and holds all federal ministers responsible for identifying risks associated with infrastructure in their area of responsibility.

Secondly, it sets out management mechanisms for those risks, including the coordinated development and execution of emergency management plans.

Finally, in an effort to facilitate joint planning, this bill would be the first to protect the confidentiality of information the government receives from the private sector in the course of preparing emergency management plans.

Those are important innovations that would help Canada better withstand major emergencies. I call upon my hon. colleagues to lend their support to this worthy and necessary legislative initiative.

Emergency Management ActGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Mr. Speaker, as I am not sure whether I received the answer previously I would ask for clarification again. In the definition of the bill does “local authorities” include municipalities, yes or no? I raise that question because in the bill it states that the federal government would come into the picture only if requested by the province and not by any other level of government.

In that case, if, for example, in the city of Toronto there is a problem on the highway, like Don Valley Parkway or QEW with millions and millions of cars, it is 100% local government responsibility.

We talked about the London bombing with respect to public transit. Unlike London, England, the operating funds for local transit systems are 100% local government. In London the state government is actually involved in operating the public transit system. The fire departments are 100% local authorities and local government. Therefore, the financial assistance and the coordination, if there is an emergency, a lot of these areas are connected to local municipalities.

My question is clear. In the bill does the phrase “local authorities” also mean local municipalities? Why would the government not amend it to add in the request of the provinces and/or municipalities in that case?

Emergency Management ActGovernment Orders

September 21st, 2006 / 4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, a very quick short answer to the hon. member's good but lengthy question is yes. Once again, as mentioned by the previous speaker, the answer is yes. Of course it applies to municipalities. The municipalities work through the province to the federal government when they need assistance in whatever way is required by the emergency in question.

Frankly, I do not really care what happens in London, England, but I do care what happens in Canada. The purpose of Bill C-12 is to ensure we have a good, solid, coordinated national, as in federal, provincial and local authority, organization to deal with whatever emergency situation comes up.

That is the long way to say yes it does include municipalities.

Emergency Management ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to put the following question to the previous speaker. I am not blaming him. However, I just listened to two speakers from the government benches talking as though there were no emergency measures in Canada. In fact, there are some in several provinces.

The general philosophy, concerning emergency measures, is to go from bottom to top. As I listen to them, I have the feeling that the current government still considers, as did previous governments unfortunately, that this goes from top to bottom.

Is he aware that the majority of emergencies in Canada must be dealt with locally, that there are provincial laws that provide for such situations, and that the federal government should reserve its assistance for greater emergencies, to fight against greater disasters?

Emergency Management ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, of course, I am aware of the efforts of municipalities and provinces.

I know my hon. colleague is experienced in that area and he has done a tremendous job in the province of Quebec.

As I said in response to the last question, the requests go from the municipalities, which are the ones who respond to every emergency that happens in their area of jurisdiction to whatever extent they can. If they need help, they will go up the line. If the provinces need help, they will go up the line to the federal government.

The point of Bill C-12 is to ensure, from the federal government's point of view, that coordination is in place so that when requests do come up, things can be handled quickly and seamlessly between the federal government and the province and the municipality as necessary driven by the circumstances on the ground in the municipality or the province where the emergency is taking place.

Emergency Management ActGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to Bill C-12, the emergency management act. I think we can all remember a time not so long ago when life was gentler and perhaps seemed a lot safer. However, 9/11 happened and, in many ways, the world changed.

After 9/11 it is important for us to remember that while the threats are more evident, certainly in the papers and in our lives, we must all live a life of vigilance, not live a life and be paranoid. In response to that, this bill has come up, a bill that builds upon the work that was done by the previous government in a number of areas.

After 9/11 we constructed PSEPC and invested more than $7 billion in developing an integrated network that would involve threat monitoring, assessment and response, not only here at home but abroad. I will divide the threats into two separate sections: those that are natural and those that are man-made.

We have the natural threats but perhaps one of the most evident and frightening threats for most people was SARS. SARS is a virus that percolates through birds in certain parts of the world, especially in the Guangdong area of China. Within that area we have seen historically, over the last 120 years or more, that every 20 or 25 years a pandemic circles the globe killing sometimes tens of millions of people. Indeed, that is the fear we all have.

SARS is a difficult problem to deal with because the virus itself morphs and changes continuously, which is why developing a vaccine is so challenging and why every year a vaccine comes out but it is never the same as the one in the previous year. The reason is that although the virus is a simple one, it is in some ways a bizarrely clever virus because it always changes its coats. It is always morphing and it is a challenge to keep ahead of it.

Our researchers in Canada are some of the best in the world. After the SARS crisis, we developed an integrated threat assessment program looking at hospitals across the country and monitoring the mortality and morbidity, the sickness and death statistics in the country to find out whether there are any disturbing peaks.

What Canadians are proud of and what is a feather in the cap of our country is that we are the best in the world. Because of that, other countries have asked us for our expertise. We have sent over some of our top-notch mobile labs and scientific researchers to the Far East where they are actually on the cusp of where this virus no doubt will stem from and where it will start its deadly march when it is able to transfer from birds to mammals, which of course includes human beings, then, most frighteningly, when that virus is able to be transferred from person to person.

It is a testimony to our scientific researchers and our integrated threat assessment program that we set up that we are the best in that area.

In another area, we saw the tsunami that devastated southeast Asia that also shook us, being a nation that lives in part on the cusp of the Pacific Ocean. My riding is on Vancouver Island and it is something that is very concerning to us. We have begun to set up a tsunami monitoring system in our country and have set up, to some degree, this system in other parts of the world, particularly in the mid-Pacific and further toward the Far East. It has started to work. More work needs to be done and I am sure the government will look at continuing that work so we will have a superb tsunami monitoring system for the Pacific. I know the constituents in my province of British Columbia and other MPs here from my province will be grateful for that.

The other area is SARS. Beyond the threat assessment network, we also developed a system of stockpiling antiviral drugs, particularly Tamiflu, but we need to be careful because this is not the solution to the problem. Tamiflu is not the solution to deal with SARS, for many reasons that I will not get into here.

The other issue I want to talk about gets into the man-made issues, which two of our colleagues from the government's side dealt with. The extent of the challenge is fairly obvious. The response can be divided into two sections. One would be dealing with the individuals who would choose to wage war against others and kill people against their religious beliefs. Indeed, those who utilize religion as a tool to murder others, and I am talking specifically about fundamentalists, and again we have seen a lot of this with Muslim fundamentalists, in no way, shape or form represent the Muslim faith.

In fact, the Quran says very clearly that if a person saves one life, that person has saved the lives of humanity. If a person kills one person, that person kills humanity. Indeed, Islam and the Quran forbid anyone to take up arms against another and to hurt another. That is much misunderstood and is little known.

We have to understand that the people who are utilizing religion and other propaganda to foment often violent sentiments against the west are warping, twisting and mutilating their religion for their own benefit. This can be dealt with in a number of ways.

In the country that spawned this violence we have to do a better job of actually dealing with it pragmatically. Sometimes our combat troops are necessary and they do an outstanding job, as they are doing right now in Afghanistan, giving their lives for security to occur. In order to support them, the development component must occur.

Within the confines of Afghanistan we have simply asked that four parts of this mission be supported. First is the defence component which is being supported, not only from the full combat capability, but also to the development capability. Second is the development component internally in Afghanistan. Third is the training of Afghan security forces. Fourth is dealing with the insurgents from outside Pakistan. Dealing with the insurgency outside Pakistan requires a multi-faceted approach. In the madrassahs of a certain country little children are fed a steady diatribe of hate against the west. As a result, when some of those children grow up, they choose to take up arms against the west.

Emergency Management ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I wonder what this all has to do with Bill C-12. Clearly it is about Afghanistan and the security situation in Afghanistan. I am not sure what it has to do with emergency preparedness in Canada. I would ask the hon. member to stick to the topic.

Emergency Management ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Acting Speaker Conservative Andrew Scheer

I am sure the hon. member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca appreciates the intervention by the member for Edmonton Centre. I think he will want to stick to the merits of the bill. I will grant him some time to get to the actual merits of this particular bill that we are debating now.

Emergency Management ActGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to answer the member's question. The security situation within Afghanistan is intimately tied to our security. That is why we are there. We are there to deal with al-Qaeda. The member, who is a former officer of the Canadian Forces, knows full well that our troops are in Afghanistan to provide the security so development can occur behind that, so that training of Afghan security forces can occur and so that we can deal with the insurgencies.

That is why in dealing with security threats here in Canada it is important for us to deal with some of the root causes of that insecurity. Part of it is to deal with the threat of terrorism. We have to deal with countries through our development prism and change those educational components which feed a steady diet of lies and hate to children and leads them to one day take up arms against us in the west. The only way to address it is on the ground.

Here at home probably the best bang for the buck in terms of dealing with security would be to invest in intelligence. We did that when we put $7 billion into our security plan for our country. We made a specific increased investment in CSIS and the RCMP to give them the tools to deal with security threats within Canada.

Most people recognize that the best way to protect all of us here at home is to deal with a strategic investment in intelligence and to work with groups on the ground. We must ensure that those groups have the ability to communicate with each other. We must ensure that they have the intelligence information and the resources, both human and otherwise, to support intelligence activities in Canada.

By working with moderate leaders in communities within our country we are able to address threats that not only affect us but also affect those communities. We tend to forget that when individuals from certain communities commit acts of grievous violence against innocent civilians, it hurts their communities too.

There is a deep and profound angst and hurt within the Muslim community that some individuals are hiding behind the religion of Islam and purporting to kill innocent civilians in the name of God and Islam. They recognize full well that it is not the case. That is why it is very important for us, and I certainly hope that the government will continue with the process which we started, to work with moderate leaders in communities within our country. They are more than happy to work with us and with CSIS and the RCMP to ensure that we have the ears and feet on the ground to identify individuals who are threatening to kill innocent civilians.

Indeed, the members of Parliament from Toronto know full well that it was the brave actions of our RCMP and the Toronto police force and others, and members in the Muslim community, who worked hard with to apprehend those individuals before they were able to murder innocent civilians. We need to congratulate and thank all of those groups for their hard work. That does belie the fact that more investment has to take place in our security.

In dealing with natural disasters, one of the things we started was to fund, utilize and increase the numbers of our reserves within the Canadian Forces. The thousands of individuals in Canada who give of themselves to work in our Canadian Forces, in the reserve component, deserve enormous credit. They would like to work as aides to the primary responders, the police forces, firefighters and ambulance workers. Our reserve forces can be an active and able component to assist our first responders. I would encourage the government to continue something that we started when we were in government.

When the Leader of the Opposition was the defence minister, I was his parliamentary secretary and we worked hard with General Hillier the chief of the defence staff on a process to increase the number of our reserve force by 3,000. What they also need and what was left as unfinished business was training and the resources for training, as well as the equipment needed to respond in an integrated fashion to various disasters across the country.

We also need an adequate and competent communication network. When disasters occur, communication breaks down. It is a very difficult challenge but it is one that must be overcome very quickly. This is of an urgent nature in my province of British Columbia where two plates are grinding against each other. We know with certainty there will be a massive earthquake that will affect Vancouver Island as well as the coast some time in the next 100 years. It could happen tomorrow, 10 years from now, or 50 years from now, but it will happen.

I would implore the government to please continue the work we were doing to develop an integrated communication network that is impermeable to the effects of a disaster. This is critically important.

The government must also integrate our first responders with our reserve forces. When we were government we developed a threat assessment and a first response network that is centred here in Ottawa, integrated with other provincial responder units across Canada, which then goes down to the local communities and our first responders. We set that up across Canada. The communication network needs to be supported within that context.

We started a process of training our first responders, both firefighters and police, but more needs to be done in that area. I would encourage the government to listen to what our firefighters and our police officers are saying and respond to those needs.

We also developed the NESS system, an emergency network across the country. This is quite exciting. Dozens of portable hospitals are set up across our country. Each of these hospitals can have up to 168 beds. The hospitals are fully formatted to deal with an emergency. They are forward planted. Some of those portable hospitals were used during the tsunami relief operations in Southeast Asia. They proved to be very valuable.

I would implore the government to continue supporting the NESS system which we started. It would enable us in times of disaster to set up forward deployed portable hospitals across the country which would be fully functional. It is important for that activity to continue.

The other issue I would suggest dealing with is protection. More attention from all of us is needed regarding the protection of our critical areas, not only the transportation arteries on land, but also the ports and container traffic. A major significant area where our defences could be breached is with regard to container traffic. The other areas are water protection and protection for our nuclear power plants. An adequate assessment of that would be valuable.

We could learn a lot in looking at the 9/11 report from the United States. We should look at the findings of that report and ask ourselves what the U.S. did wrong in those areas. The 9/11 report articulates them. We could determine what the solutions are and whether we are applying those solutions to the challenges in our own country. The 9/11 commission report would give our government a framework that we could apply to our country and ask ourselves the difficult questions that have to be asked and answered in the interests of the safety of the citizens whom we serve. That document is critical.

We also started to study the U.S. failure in New Orleans with respect to hurricane Katrina. Our Canadian Forces did an outstanding job in assisting during Katrina. Divers from Canadian Forces Base Esquimalt went down there to save lives.They worked under the most difficult circumstances. They deserve an enormous amount of credit for what they did.

It is interesting to note that our Canadian Forces and civilian responders responded much quicker than did U.S. responders to the disaster in the wake of Katrina. We were on the ground helping those people right away. Our Canadian Forces, firefighters and police officers were there and did an outstanding job, responding quickly.

We looked at the response by the United States to the disaster in the wake of Katrina and noted what it had done well, what it had not done well and what we could learn from it. It is important for the government to look at the response. It is also important for the two ministers involved in defence to look at that document and address it.

There are two other areas about which I want to talk. One is research in the private sector. It is an area that is not known very well, it is not protected well and there is a lot of ignorance about it. A lot of research is done in the private sector. Some of that research has significant capabilities with respect to security, which could be used as tools against us, not only in the medical field but in other fields too.

The application of the research in the private sector could be utilized by individuals who would choose to harm us in nefarious ways. The problem is how we can protect against that research getting into the hands of those individuals? This area is not explored. It is an area where there is a lack of knowledge. I would implore the government to work with the private sector and educate it on the need to protect some of the research that is done. If we educate the private sector, it will fully understand and be very cooperative with the government and enable it to address the issue. It is a big black hole that has not been dealt with.

Last, as was mentioned before, protection of our communication, computer and information technology sector is critically important. We need to continue that endeavour to deal with it because it is an ever-changing field that is obviously difficult to get ahead of, but it is something we must do.

Bill C-12 will continue to build on the work we did in the former government in a wide variety of areas. We encourage the government to work with us to help this happen in the interests of all our citizens from coast to coast.

Emergency Management ActGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to the hon. member's comments, suggestions and encouragement. I have a couple of quick questions.

A program had been put together after 9/11 to train local responders. It was the heavy urban search and rescue program. It was to set out to deal with biological chemical incidents. It was supposed to be a fifty-fifty saw off. Sadly, the previous government abandoned its commitment to the program so the urban centres were left on the hook to train people in this area.

My first comment is that it is fine to have this kind of infrastructure, but if we do not have the saw off and the equity in helping first responders, then really this is just words on paper.

The second point is I know firefighters, one a friend of mine, went to New York in the wake of 9/11. They did not know what they were getting into. We know the health effects that plagued the first responders. We need to take a look at that.

Could the member comment on that? When we send people into harm's way and into danger, how do we ensure they will not pay the price for a very long period of time? For some, it has been lethal and it has affected their health dramatically.

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4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, he is quite correct that we started a process for biological, chemical and radiological events within Canada. We had started to train first responders. We need to do more of that. In Vancouver some of our first responders have been the beneficiaries of that training, as well as in other parts of the country. Again, we need to continue on with that process.

The other thing we wanted to do was use our reserves as an adjunct to first responders, and they would then be trained specifically. One of their talents and skills would be a specific capability with respect to biological, chemical and radiological events within Canada.

When I was working in defence, we had training sessions. We had mock events of such a horrific event that took place right in downtown Ottawa. What we now need to do is build on that with respect to the reserves.

First, with respect to those individuals who commit heroic acts and go into areas and face health effects, not only in the short term but long term, we always try to ensure they have the equipment to protect themselves.

Second, they receive the care that they require if, heaven forbid, the unforeseeable happens and they are injured in the commission of their duties. That is our responsibility to all individuals who engage in activities in the protection of society at large.

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4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his speech, especially the sociological discourse as to what was behind it all. I learned something.

I want to point out a couple of things and then ask a question.

First, the reserves and the Canadians Forces regulars have been doing aid of the civil power for as long as I can remember, having done it myself as a young officer cadet in the early sixties. This is nothing new and it is not something that any particular government invented.

The other thing is finally this government is doing something about spending money on the military reserves and regular force and equipment to allow things to happen like getting DART somewhere it needs to go in a reasonable time, such as in a Canadian C-17 instead of a U.S. air force C-17.

I agree with most of what the hon. member has said. He has some great points. There is not a lot of disagreement with them. My question for him is very simple. I take it from his remarks that he is personally supports Bill C-12, will vote for it and will encourage his colleagues to do so?

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4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for the work he has done as an officer in our Canadian Forces and the air force. I know he has accorded himself honourably in the commission of his duties for our country. As a Canadian, I think we all thank him for the work that he has done, as we do indeed all our Canadian Forces officers and non-commissioned officers and men and women who are in the ranks from top to bottom who work in the commission of their duties with remarkable efficiency, honour and courage. We all owe them a debt.

When I was making my comments about aid to civil power, I was not suggesting that this was something new. What I was suggesting was that the capabilities for our reserve force was going to change and that we were going to modernize them somewhat and give them broader capabilities

Dealing with the chemical, biological, radiological challenges was never considered before. Therefore, this was something we were going to task our reserve force with so they could aid civil power and first responders. We wanted to increase the capabilities on the ground in an integrated way so we could support those reserve forces and they in turn could support our first responders.

It is really a dual track approach: first, help our first responders to have the tools and the training they need; and second, help our reserves to have similar capabilities so they could support them in the event of a disaster.

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4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON

Mr. Speaker, the member spent quite a bit of time on a very small aspect of the emergency spectrum of possibilities in which we could get involved. This is a matter which has been dealt with by the House in prior parliaments. In fact, it has billions of dollars invested in it. I think about $9.5 billion to strengthen our national security was invested in prior parliaments.

Some concern has been expressed about whether Canada is ready and prepared on the terrorist side, being in close proximity to the United States. Even within the bill, there is a ministerial responsibility to coordinate emergency efforts with regard to emergencies that occur in Canada or the United States.

Could the member give us an idea of the enormity of the consolidated or coordinating effort that is required when dealing beyond our own borders, not to mention other levels of government and maybe the duplication or overlap of interests and responsibilities? This is a very important bill and very onerous. Is Canada ready?

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4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Mr. Speaker, the member asked a very pertinent question about whether we were ready against terrorism. I do not think one is ever completely ready because individuals will always be able to kill other people if they want. Our job is to do the best that we can to protect innocent civilians. There is no perfect solution.

The member mentioned something very important, which is we try to avoid duplication. In the interest of utilizing the taxpayer money effectively, we started PSEPC. We could work with PSEPC, invest the money, develop the national coordinating system, which we have here, and be able to link that with provincial coordinating bodies and, by extension, down to the municipalities. That is critically important.

On the terrorism file, we have to recognize that the 9/11 al-Qaeda was a much more monolithic organization. Since 9/11 it has changed a lot. The U.K., Madrid, now Toronto and events in the other parts of the world have shown very clearly that al-Qaeda is now operating as a diffused series of cells around the world. It does not have the monolithic culture. Furthermore, other groups are offshoots of al-Qaeda. They are also willing to engage in the same bloody-minded, violent actions against the west that have nothing to do with Islam whatsoever, nothing to do with religion and certainly nothing to do with any God of which I am aware.

It is important that we continue. I hope the government, as the Liberals have tried to do, invests in intelligence and works with civil society in Canada, with affected communities, communities that have within them members who would engage in this behaviour. Those are the people we should be dealing with to ensure we can address the threat within our midst.

Last, for those who believe that we are not at risk, we are at risk.

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4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would first say that we will be voting for the bill on second reading.

It contains some things that we do not like, to be honest. I believe that they could be improved in committee, but it is still important that these things be said.

Once again, the federal government imagines that it has to run the whole show. In the present circumstances, the issue is not solely about the fact that Quebec is more sensitive to protecting provincial powers, and because we want to have all the powers, we would like to exercise all of the powers that we already have; is that it? No, it is really because it is in the nature of things that action must originate at the local level, when there is a disaster, because that is what it is called. That is an accurate term. It is at that level that the plan must be originated.

Obviously we are prepared to acknowledge that the federal government has a role to play. In fact, in the major disasters we have dealt with in Quebec, we have never, to my knowledge, had any complaint about the contribution made by the federal authorities—even when it was the army!

Obviously the army may have equipment that we do not have in local communities. For example, if we need helicopters, the army is just about the only source from which they can be obtained quickly. The army also provides a disciplined and multi-skilled body of workers. When a lot of people are needed for the job, it can step in to protect institutions and it can go around neighbourhoods, as in the case of the ice storm, to urge people to leave and tell them where they could go, and so on.

I am also persuaded, and I will say this straight off, that a disaster is not the time to be squabbling over territorial jurisdiction. I believe that everyone is naturally going to work together.

What I do not like about this bill, and what seemed to me to be reflected in the notes prepared for some of the speakers on the government side, is that there still seemed to be this mindset that the federal government is going to organize everything that has to be done in emergencies in Canada, that it is going to take that responsibility upon itself once again. I believe that this is not a good idea.

I will just draw a few comparisons. This bill that has been put before us contains 14 clauses. The Civil Protection Act in Quebec has 196. An act is not judged by how many sections it has, but nonetheless this provides an idea of what we covered in that act. I had the honour of organizing it and presiding over its passage. It was a great honour, because I had no experience in civil protection, although I had experience in public safety. I was struck by the skill and dedication of the people behind that act. They had already presented me with a plan for safety in the case of fires, and the funny thing was that it was a plan similar to the one for civil protection. I thought it to be so intelligent that I said we would implement it. It was prompted by the Nicolet report, which was written in response to the ice storm.

Quebec may have the best legislation in Canada. I do not know, because I have not compared it with the others, but one thing is certain: Quebec has found itself in circumstances where it had to take action. And we found that the laws we had at the time were put to a tough test. We learned lessons from this and then we decided to enact the best possible law. As a result, that act is of some significance.

Of course, I would not do this other than in the present case, but perhaps it is appropriate to warn the Globe and Mail that the ice storm episodes and the deluge in Saguenay have nothing to do with the language quarrels or Bill 101 in Quebec. Normally, I would not comment on this but let us do it. We can go on to more serious matters after our little recess.

Let us see what clause 3 says:

The Minister is responsible for exercising leadership relating to emergency management in Canada—

However, I do not agree. The minister certainly has the right to exercise it in areas of federal jurisdiction, but leadership roles must be the responsibility of local authorities.

In the ice storm in Quebec, it is the premier who played a leadership role, to the satisfaction of all. This greatly contributed to his popularity and that of the government at the time.

Then, in clause 4.(1)(d) in particular, we are told that the minister's responsibilities include:

monitoring potential, imminent and actual emergencies and advising other ministers accordingly.

I appreciate that, in the context, perhaps we want to talk only about emergencies that the federal government must deal with, but we see that this still has a very general scope. However, this is not everywhere. There is still the concern to remain in one's area of jurisdiction. I quote:

—coordinating the activities of government institutions relating to emergency management with those of the provinces...and through the provinces, those of local authorities.

The other jurisdictions are being recognized.

establishing arrangements with each province whereby any consultation...may be carried out effectively.

There is good intention.

coordinating the provision of assistance to a province in respect of a provincial emergency, other than the provision of financial assistance and the calling out of the Canadian Force for service in aid of the civil power—

I accept that the federal government would maintain jurisdiction over the armed forces, even in these cases.

[...]providing assistance other than financial assistance to a province if the province requests it;

Once again, the local authorities are respected.

However, there are other clauses that give rise to concerns about the bill, which we could examine in committee. For example, in subclause 6.(2), the French version is more general than the English, which reads:

Each minister shall include in an emergency management plan,[...]

This means that every minister must include certain elements in his or her plan whereas the French text states “Every emergency management plan must include the following:[...]”, as if all the plans throughout Canada were to include the elements imposed by the federal government. I believe that would be a basic mistake.

However, I recognize that subclause 6.(3) states:

A government institution may not respond to a provincial emergency unless the government of the province requests assistance or there is an agreement with the province that requires or permits the assistance.

In this case, the jurisdiction is respected.

This is why I believe we could improve this legislation in committee and that we probably all share the desire, no matter the political party we represent or our political persuasion, to end up with a bill satisfactory to all.

Many members have spoken about civil security. I would like to explain the major components of the Quebec Civil Protection Act in order to provide an understanding of how, in the provinces, we are ready for emergencies and the details of our plans, whereas here, what in essence is being proposed is legislation to enable regulations. In the Quebec law as in ours, every department is required to prepare an emergency plan. That is one of the components of the Quebec law.

As I mentioned, the Quebec law has 196 sections. I will read Article 1 which explains what is covered by the law:

The purpose of this Act is the protection of persons and property against disasters, through mitigation measures, emergency response planning, response operations in actual or imminent disaster situations and recovery operations.

We therefore have PPIR: prevention, preparation, intervention and recovery. As you can see, it is an attempt to fully cover emergency preparedness. It deals with people whose activities or property generate risk, by creating certain obligations, namely mentioning them to the municipality that will have to take all this into consideration in its risk coverage plan. It addresses the responsibilities of the local and regional authorities. It addresses the public safety plan, an aspect of which I will come back to because it is central to this legislation. It addresses local declarations of states of emergency, when they should be declared and under what circumstances. It addresses which government departments and agencies have to prepare their own emergency plans. It talks about the coordination role of the public security minister.

It deals with the national public safety plan. There are regional plans, but there also needs to be a national plan that applies to Quebec as a whole. It addresses the orders to implement certain measures and declarations of local emergencies. It addresses the role of the government, its obligations and when it intervenes. It also addresses financial assistance for people during and after the disaster.

In Quebec, we are pretty well prepared to intervene in disaster situations. That does not mean we would not need or want help from the federal government. Nonetheless, we do not want it to come in and take over for us.

I talked about the public safety plan, which is essentially this: local elected politicians must meet at the RCM level, regional county municipality—there are roughly a hundred in Quebec—or in metropolitan communities in the case of big cities. They must prepare their public safety plan.

What is a public safety plan? It is taking stock of the risks. There is a railway track near us, are hazardous materials transported across it? What would happen if a train ever derailed? Where are the reservoirs that might explode? What would happen in a power outage?

Then we draw up an inventory of our resources. What resources do we have? Where can we quickly house people who have no shelter? What can we do if we have to get along without electricity for a week or two? Are there any generators? In one Quebec municipality, a woman knew that train engines are generators. They generate electricity. So we put all that together and apply our resources to the needs. We have a plan that has to be approved by the government, which provides suggestions, and we have to implement this plan so that when a disaster strikes, we know what to do.

Things are much more developed in the act that in what is proposed here, and there is no need for the federal government to tell us what to do.

Many people have mentioned Hurricane Katrina, which really caught our imaginations. I think that people would probably be interested to know what someone who has been involved in public safety thinks about what happened when Hurricane Katrina struck. In my view, it was a disgrace that the most powerful country in the world reacted in this way. Look at what would have happened if they had had to follow the Quebec legislation. Local elected officials would have had to draw up a public safety plan. They would have had to list the dangers they faced and their resources, and they would have had to apply their resources to the dangers. What were the dangers? The danger was that there were levies. If the levies were breached, there would be considerable flooding. They knew how weak the levies were. They knew that the levies could not withstand hurricanes that were Force 3 or more. They knew several days in advance that there was a Force 5 hurricane set to arrive. They were actually lucky because it eventually became a Force 4 hurricane. However, the levies still broke, as expected, and parts of the city were flooded. They knew in advance what parts would be flooded. If they had had a public safety plan—maybe they had one but failed to implement it—what would they have foreseen under such circumstances? Put local officials around a table to think about it and they would say an evacuation order is needed. What happens if an evacuation order is issued but people do not want to leave? They have to be reassured and the army has to be ready to protect their property. The army will need boats. The military has to get through. We have calculated for our part that if an evacuation order is given, 85% of the people will leave on their own. Eighty-five per cent of the people could stay with friends or in a second home, and they would prefer that.

So we expect to cover 25% of the population. We are not taking any chances. When we order an evacuation and a given number of vehicles are heading out on the roads at the same time, they all have to be going in one direction. We can use both sides of the highways and keep one lane for emergencies. Furthermore, we have to anticipate that these people are going to need gas. If we think of this, if we prepare for it, we will be ready and it will be carried out. Take the example of Hurricane Katrina, which proved shameful for the richest and most powerful country in the world. I am much more critical of the reaction by the local authorities than others have been of President Bush's reaction.

What surprises me most is that the mayor was re-elected under such circumstances. He should have issued the order to evacuate; he should have worked out how to transport the people with no cars and how to direct those who had cars. Where to accommodate them? What food to serve the people being accommodated?

So civil security is assured up to a certain point. However, I recognize that the federal government can contribute resources. For instance, we were talking about the four sectors where people are needed who wear a particular uniform so that they can respond. The federal government can prepare those uniforms and place them in designated locations. There could be laboratories there working to produce vaccines quickly.

In Laval, for example, just southwest of my riding, the Institut Armand-Frappier would be able to provide vaccines against avian flu, and extremely quickly. The Institut Armand-Frappier has an international reputation and is affiliated with the Pasteur institutes all over the world. For example, it deals with Pasteur institutes in Vietnam and Asia which are very familiar with the virus. No matter: it is obvious that the things well done are done at the local level. In the risk coverage plan, I find it intelligent that we are always told to avoid devising blanket solutions. A civil security plan does not provide for blanket solutions precisely because it is the locally elected people who know their plants and who sit down at the table who assess a risk.

So we have no blanket solutions, but we have solutions perfectly suited to the local populations. What is more, the local authorities know when to call the government. So I hope for a little humility on the part of the federal government. It certainly has a role to play in these institutions, in assessing its own risks, its own activities, but in my view, the initiative and above all the authority to take steps in the event of major disasters must be clearly left to the provinces and the local authorities, well supervised by their own provincial government.

I have finished. If any time is left, I will respond to more questions.

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5 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague again for his speech. However, I do not know why my friend insists that there are no bogeymen. I am sorry, but I do not know how the member would say that in French.

I really do not understand why my hon. friend insists that there is a government bogeyman here that is going to somehow take away the authority of the local responders. That has never been the case. It has not been the case in the past. It is not the case now. It will not be the case in the future. Nowhere in the legislation does it imply that.

Clearly, the province of Quebec, thanks to my hon. friend, has a very refined emergency response procedure from the local level on up through the province to the federal government where it is necessary.

There are many very talented and smart Canadians living and working in the province of Quebec as there are in the other provinces and other provinces have refined plans as well. It really baffles me why we are insisting that there is some kind of usurping of Quebec's authority from the local level. That is just not the case.

I also point out to my hon. friend, and I think he did bring it up, that the failure in Katrina was in fact at the local response level and more so than anywhere else.

I ask my hon. friend with respect to the ice storm of 1998, which he mentioned, does he appreciate, and I am sure he does, the fact that it did go from the local emergency through the province to the federal authorities, and in fact internationally where most of the big generators that were moved around in that emergency were in fact transported by U.S. air force C-17 aircraft?

Does he not appreciate the fact that it has always been a matter of what is going on at the local level that drives the response and that drives it up through the chain from the province to the federal government? I guess I would ask him why he insists that there are bogeymen here trying to take away the authority when that is just not the case, other than it might satisfy his local politics?

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5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have to admit that I do not know how to say bogeymen in French either.

I would say that it is because of the past. The federal government tends to think that it has to run the show, in many areas.

As I mentioned earlier, I do not think there is a desire, certainly not on the part of the previous speaker, to have the federal government take the lead. When I read the bill, I get the feeling that not too far below the surface is that tendency of the federal government to think that only it can make intelligent rules in Canada.

The bill states:

3. The Minister is responsible for exercising leadership relating to emergency management—

In my opinion, this is not true. I think that this is a complementary role. It may be a leadership role within the federal government, but certainly not in managing emergencies. The reason things worked so well in Quebec is that the Premier of Quebec stepped in.

Then, the bill gives the minister authority over:

4(1)(d) monitoring potential, imminent and actual emergencies and advising other ministers accordingly;

There is still more:

6(2) Each minister shall include in an emergency management plan

This again implies that the minister wants control over all emergency plans. Quite honestly, I do not see how the minister will go about judging our plans.

We will look at the other points together, and I am certain that we will be able to come to an agreement. But from experience, I can say that when it is written in the fine print somewhere in the law, the federal government always ensures that it is able to intervene when jurisdictions overlap. That is my concern. I think this can be corrected, and I am certain that I will likely have the cooperation of the previous speaker.

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5:05 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether there is a bogeywoman in this emergency management bill.

In terms of SARS, many workers ended up losing their jobs in hotels. Many citizens ended up not having a whole month of salary because of the quarantine situation. Many people were not able to go to work and as a result suffered financial consequences. In the case of the blackout in Ontario, many people lost their businesses and some businesses never really recovered. As a result of this emergency crisis they desperately needed compensation.

I would like to find out from my friend whether in his mind emergency compensation should come from the federal government or the provincial government. Should it be a shared responsibility or a fifty-fifty responsibility? In these types of spectacular crises, who should bear the responsibility of compensating citizens and businesses that suffer huge financial losses?